Chapter II: Part 2

There is clearly some inaccuracy in the details of my statement, which I am obliged to LORD BRAYBROOKE and to G. for pointing out, and which, perhaps, they may help to clear up. The main fact is admitted: that "_two_ Knights of the Garter covered the period from 1684 to 1820;" and George IV.'s assertion, that "he had given away a Garter that had been given but once since the reign of Charles II.," I myself heard, though I unluckily did not make a "Note" of it. This could apply to nothing but the cases of the Duke of Somerset and George III. Whether George IV. was misinformed as to the details on which he founded his assertion, I know not; but it is unlikely: and that after a lapse of about thirty years I may have confounded the _Regency_ with the _Accession_, and _Lord Moira_ with the _Duke of Buckingham_, I will not deny; for it seems that I have done one or the other, though without any effect on the main point. As to G.'s objection, that of several Garters disposed of on the same day in 1745. The Duke of Somerset's did not fall to Prince George. I have not Beltz to refer to; but it strikes me as possible this may admit of explanation: because, although Prince George was _nominated_ first in the batch, it happened that he was _invested_ the last; indeed not till the day _after_ all the others: so that he might have received the _badge_ of the Duke of Somerset. Your readers are aware that the _badges_ are not the private property of the knights, but are always _returned_ into the hands of the _sovereign_, and that the same badge is delivered to successive knights; so that it is probable that George III., on becoming sovereign, kept in his own possession the badge he had originally received, and that this identical badge George IV. disposed of as he stated, whether to the Duke of Buckingham, or, as the impression on my memory still is, Lord Moira.

C.

_Traditions from Remote Periods._--From time to time notices have appeared in "N. & Q." of "remote events brought down to our own times through few links:" to these, if you should think it merits insertion, I beg to contribute the following Note from Chambers's _Life and Works of Burns_, vol. iii. p. 205. In the address to Mr. Maxwell, of Terraughty, on his birthday (p. 204.), Burns says, 7th line:

"This day[4] thou metes threescore eleven,"

and Mr. Chambers remarks:

"The person addressed in these verses, John Maxwell, Esq., of
Terraughty and Munches, was a leading public man in the county of
Dumfries. He was on several accounts very remarkable, but
particularly for his birth, and the proximity into which his
family history brings us with events comparatively remote; for Mr.
Maxwell was grandson's grandson, and no more, to the gallant and
faithful Lord Herries, who on bended knees entreated Queen Mary to
prosecute Bothwell as the murderer of her husband, and who
subsequently fought for her at Langside. One cannot learn without
a pleasing kind of surprise, that a relation in the fifth degree
of one who was _Warden of the West Marches in 1545_, should have
lived to the close of the French Revolution wars, which was the
case of Mr. Maxwell, for he died in _January 1814_."

[Footnote 4: Middle of December, 1791.]

C. D. LAMONT.

Greenock.

There is now living in the village of Headley, Hants, a man whose father was born in the time (though not in the reign) of James II.; viz. 1697. As a curious instance of the space of time included in the lives of a father and son (although there is nothing wonderful in the number of years attained by either separately), I have thought it worth recording in "N. & Q." I may add that the age of the man now living at Headley is eighty-three, and he was born when his father was seventy-two years old.

L. G.

TWENTY-SEVEN CHILDREN, AND MORE, OF ONE MOTHER.

(Vol. v., p. 126.)

Happening to have made notes from time to time of several such instances, I beg to present them to the readers of "N. & Q.":--

_Sixty-two Children_:--

"A weaver in Scotland had by one woman 62 children, all living
till they were baptized, of w'ch ther wer but fower daughters
onely who lived till they were women, and 46 sonns, all attaining
to man's estate. During the time of this fruitfullnes in the
woman, the husband, at her importunity, absented himself from her
for the space of 5 years together, serving as a soldier under the
command of Captaine Selby in the Low Countries. After his return
home his wife was againe delivered of three children at a birth,
and so in due time continued in such births till, through bearing,
she became impotent. The certainty of this relation I had from
John Delavall of Northumb', Esq., who, ann. 1630, rid about 30
miles beyond Edenburrough to see this fruitfull couple, who were
both then living. Ther statures and features he described to me
then more fully. Ther was not any of the children then abiding
with ther parents. Sir John Bowes & 3 other men of qualitie have
taken at severall times ten of ther children apeece from them, and
brought them up. The rest wer disposed of by the other English &
Scottish gents, amongst w'ch 3 or 4 out of them are now alive &
abiding at Newcastle, 1630."

_Collectanea Topog. et Geneal._ vol. iv. p. 53. from MS. Harl.
980. f. 74.

_Thirty-nine Children_:--

"In the year 1698, when Thomas Greenhill, surgeon to Henry Duke of
Norfolk (son of William Greenhill of Greenhill in Middx. by
Elizabeth, daughter of John Jones of London) petitioned the Earl
Marshal as follows: 'That in consideration of your petitioner
being the 7th son & 39th child of one father & mother, your Grace
would be pleased to signalise it by some particular remark or
augmentation in his coat of Arms, to transmit to posterity so
uncommon a thing.' The confirmation of the arms contains no
reference to the fact."

_Collectanea Topogr. et Genealogica_, vol. iv. p. 53.

_Thirty-five Children_:--

"A woman in Vere Street of the 35th child by one
husband."

_Gentleman's Magazine_, 1736, p. 683.

_Thirty Children._--In the _Gentleman's Magazine_ for Feb. 1743, is recorded the death of Mrs. Agnes Milbourne, who was aged 106, and had thirty children.

_Twenty-nine Children._--In that for 1738:--

"Nov. 15. Mr. Thomas Rogers, a 'Change-Broker, who had by his wife
29 children, born and christen'd."

_Twenty-seven Children._--Mr. Richetts, father of the present Earl St. Vincent, was the twenty-third of twenty-seven children by the same mother.

J. G. N.

In the _London Medical Journal_, vol. x. for the year 1789, art. vi., "A remarkable case of numerous births, with observations by Maxwell Garthmore, M.D., F.R.S. & S.A.: in a Letter to Sir Joseph Banks, Bart., P.R.S.," Dr. G. mentions an account given formerly in the _Journal des Sçavans_, by M. Seignette, physician at Rochelle, of a woman of Saintonge who was at one birth delivered of nine well-formed children so far advanced that their sexes could be discovered.

In the _Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. lii. p. 376., is a curious legend of a woman giving birth to 365 children at once: all the males were baptised and named John, and all the females Elizabeth. The mother and 365 children died the same day.

In the _Morning Advertiser_ for Dec. 1, 1851, is an account of a woman at Ballygunge, near Calcutta, being delivered of twenty-one children at once, all boys.

Nov. 14th, 1736. A woman in Vere Street, of her thirty-fifth child, by one husband. (_Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. vi. p. 683.)

July 31st, 1781. At Kirton-le-Moor, in Cumberland, a man and his wife, and thirty children, the youngest of whom was between two and three years old, lately walked to church to the christening of the thirty-first child. (_Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. li. p. 388.)

Died at Grantham, Mrs. Lelly, a widow lady of that town. She was twice mother of twenty-two children. (_Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. lii. p. 309.)

Eighty-seven children by two wives: sixty-nine by first, eighteen by second. (_Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. liii. p. 753.)

Seventy-two children by two wives, and a mother of thirty-two children. (_Gentleman's Magazine_, vol. lix. pp. 733-4.) To which is appended the following note by the editor:

"The following epitaph, commemorating an instance of remarkable
fecundity, is inserted by Mr. Pennant in his _Journey to Snowdon_:
'Here lyeth the body of Nicholas Hookes, of Conway, Gent., who was
the forty-first child of his father, William Hookes, Esq., by
Alice his wife, and the father of twenty-seven children, who died
the 20th day of March, 1637.'"

PANTAGRUEL.

PEDIGREE OF RICHARD EARL OF CHEPSTOW.

(Vol. v., p. 126.)

It seems there can be no doubt that Richard de Clare, second Earl of Pembroke, surnamed Strongbow, was eldest son of Gilbert de Clare, first Earl of Pembroke: which last was second son of Gilbert de Tonebrugge. That Strongbow's father's name was Gilbert is proved from a charter in which he (the father) made a grant of the church of Everton to the priory of St. Neot, commencing "Gilbertus, filius G. Comes de Penbroc," &c. (See _Dugdale_.) And I find this confirmed by a valuable old pedigree in the possession of a member of my family (date _cir._ 1620), which was admitted as principal evidence, and examined, in a successful suit in the Court of Chancery, in the latter half of the last century; in which pedigree the De Clares are introduced among the "præclarissimæ affinitates." An extract would be needless, and occupy your valuable space to no purpose.

To account for the singularity mentioned by your correspondent in the charter of Strongbow, I can make but these two suggestions: either the reading is correct,--in which case the true name of the first Earl of Pembroke was _Richard Gilbert_, which, I need hardly say, is possible, notwithstanding the existence of his elder brother Richard; or, the reading is incorrect, in which case the mistake probably arose from the writer, notwithstanding he had written "Comes Ric'" previously, by a natural oversight inserting it again after "fil," intending to write, "Comes Ric' fil Gisleb'ti."

It may be an admission of ignorance on my part, but I am unable to find in any of the authorities I have at hand, that Strongbow, Earl of Pembroke, was, as your correspondent states him to have been, also _Earl of Chepstow_. Will he be kind enough to give me a reference?

In the above-mentioned pedigree the arms of the De Clares are given down to Strongbow--_or, three chevrons gules_; while the bearing of the latter is _or, five chevrons gules_. Burke, in his _Extinct Peerage_, gives the arms of both the De Clares, Earls of Pembroke, _or three chevrons gules, a lable of five points az._; while in another authority, Berry's _Encycl._, I find for the two De Clares, Earls of Pembroke, two widely different coats, viz. _ar. on a chief az. three crosses pattée fitchée of the field_; and _or, three chevrons gules, a crescent az._ Can any of your heraldic correspondents account for these various bearings?

H. C. K.

---- Rectory, Hereford.

ISABEL, QUEEN OF THE ISLE OF MAN.

(Vol. v., p. 132.)

Mr. WM. SIDNEY GIBSON has correctly referred to the authority for this designation; but it may be well, before pursuing the inquiry, to place before the reader the very words of the register of the Grey Friars of London:

"Versus quasi medium chori jacet dominus Willelmus Fitzwarryn
Baro, et Isabella uxor sua quondam Regina Man."

_Collectanea Top. et Geneal._ v. 278.

MR. GIBSON has also correctly added, that in my note to this entry I have not afforded any information about the lady Isabel. It is true that I searched for such information in vain; and the information I gave in lieu was the date of the death of William Lord Fitz-Warine, viz., the 35 Edw. III. (1361), and the name of the lady he is known from record (Ex. 22 Edw. III. no. 39.), to have married, namely, _Amicia_, daughter and heir of Sir Henry de Haddon. As there is not the slightest ground for imagining that this Amicia was ever "Queen of Man," it must therefore be concluded, supposing that the register of the Grey Friars gives a faithful reflection of the epitaph, that the Lord Fitz-Warine had a second wife. I am not inclined to adopt MR. GIBSON'S suggestion that this lady was _Sibilla_, daughter of William de Montacute, first Earl of Salisbury, because the lordship of Man descended to the second earl, and he possessed it until the 16 Ric. II. (1393). It seems therefore that the only "Queen of Man" that could be the wife of William Lord Fitz-Warine, must have been the widow of the first Earl of Salisbury, who died in 1343. The wife of that earl and the mother of his heir was _Katharine_, daughter of William Lord Granson, as Mr. Beltz gives that name, correcting the more prevalent form of Grandison. The question therefore to be decided is--Did this lady survive him, or did he marry a second wife named _Isabella_? In either case, I think it is clear that the lady buried at the Grey Friars was the Dowager Countess of Salisbury. Mr. Beltz has given a memoir of Sir William Fitz-Warine in his _Memorials of the Garter_, but he was not aware of the baron's connexion with "the Queen of Man." Dying of the plague on the 28th Oct. 1361, it was probably in haste that his body was interred in the church of the Grey Friars, and the queen may have fallen a victim to the same pestilence. There is an effigy in the church at Wantage which is ascribed to this Lord Fitz-Warine; and it is accompanied by one of a lady, probably Amicia Haddon, on whose death, some time before his own, that monument may have been erected. These effigies are engraved in the series by Hollis. There is a peculiarity attending the barony of this William Fitz-Warine. He was first summoned by writ in 1342 [qu. if 1343, and thus after his marriage with the Dowager Countess of Salisbury?]; and though he left a son and heir, Sir Ivo Fitz-Warine, that son was never summoned to parliament. A similar course has been observed in other cases where the title to a barony was _jure uxoris_, in which condition may be included the state of the second husband of a countess, there being instances of men in that position being summoned to parliament _as barons_, whilst the countesses their wives were living, and no longer. Thus it is possible that Fitz-Warine was summoned, because he had married the countess and "queen;" and his son Ivo was not summoned, because he was the son of Amicia Haddon.

With regard to the titles of King or Queen of Man, they do not appear to be recognised by records, but merely by the chroniclers. Dugdale has quoted from the history of Thomas de la Marc, that William, Earl Of Salisbury, having in 16 Edw. III. (1342) conquered the Isle of Man (from the Scots), the king gave him the inheritance, and _crowned him king thereof_; and Walsingham and Otterbourne (p. 153.) relate that the Vice-Chamberlaine, Sir William Scrope, in 16 Ric. II. (1393) purchased the sovereignty of the Isle of Man _cum corona_. But the word _dominus_, not _rex_, is employed in Latin records, and _seigneur_ in French. On the seal of the first Earl of Salisbury he is styled _dominus de dynbi et mannie_, and on his counterseal _dominus de man et de dynbi_; and on a counter or privy seal of the second earl he is styled _dominus mannie et de dynbi_ (_i.e._ Denbigh, not "Derby," as misprinted in p. 132. _antea_). These seals have been recently engraved in the Salisbury volume of the Archæological Institute. The second earl in his will, made the 20th April, 1397, styles himself "Earl of Salisbury and Lord of the Isles of Man and Wiht," although he had then sold the lordship of Man some years before. In the Harleian charters is a bond from the purchaser to the famous Sir Richard Whityngton, citizen and mercer of London, dated 29th Aug. 1393, in which he is described as "William le Scrope, Seigneur de Man et des Isles;" and in the truce with France on the 10th March, 1394, "Monsieur Gwilliam le Scrope" is recorded to have assented to the proceedings "pour le seigneury de Man," as one of the _allies_ of the King of England. (_Foedera_, iii. part iv. p. 95.) It is not easy to determine when or where these potent subjects really assumed the rank or title of "king" and "queen;" and it must be recollected that the King of England himself was at the same period content to call himself only "Lord of Ireland," as the Earl of Salisbury was "Lord of Man."

It may stimulate MR. GIBSON, as a north countryman, to further researches in this matter to remind him that it is to Katharine, Countess of Salisbury, at the Castle of Wark in Northumberland, that Mr. Beltz has traced the anecdote related by Froissart of the especial admiration which King Edward III. conceived for a Countess of Salisbury; connected with which are some of the legendary stories of the origin of the Order of the Garter (see _Memorials of the Garter_, pp. 63. et seq.). It would be a remarkable fact to ascertain that the object of the king's gallantry became afterwards even a nominal queen.

JOHN GOUGH NICHOLS.

Replies to Minor Queries.

_Bastides_ (Vol. v., p. 150.).--The town of Kingston-upon-Hull was founded by King Edward I., when he returned from Scotland, through Yorkshire, in 1299, and it may be seen in Hollar's map of the town, _as it was in 1640_, that the ground plan coincides exactly with MR. PARKER'S description of the "Villes Anglaises" in France.

F. HH.

_Brunéhaut_ (Vol. iv., p. 86.).--Pasquier is the great author originally in her favour. Hallam refers also to Vellay, _Hist. de France_, tom. i. on one side, and a dissertation by Gaillard in the _Memoirs of the Academy of Inscriptions_, tom. xxx. on the other. Hallam himself was against her. In his _Supplement_, p. 19., he is rather undecided.

Michelet and Sismondi do not seem to defend her; nor, I believe, Guizot, who considers there was a constant struggle between the Frank and Roman inhabitants, and that Fredegonde and Brunéhaut were the heads and types respectively of the two races, and their respective principles of government.

C. B.

_Job_ (Vol. v., pp. 26. 140.).--The criticisms of your correspondent RECHABITE are of so singular a character, that I must beg him to excuse my passing over, _unnoticed_, the first paragraph.

The second appears calculated to traduce the character of a man celebrated for his integrity, judgment, accurateness, preciseness, and skill in his sketches, &c. The _Inscriptio Persepolitana_, p. 333., is his own sketch: "Verum, unius descriptio tam longam mihi facessebat operam (ob loci altitudinem et solares radios permolestam) ut parum abesset, quin à ceteris abstinere coactus fuerim." (P. 332.) There were three others: "Inscriptionis quadruplex quasi tabula spectatur." Perhaps it may be one of the latter ones that RECHABITE has seen in Niebuhr and Porter. I have not seen those works.

Next, why does RECHABITE not say what are the _two letters_ which I have translated as two words containing _eight letters_?

And now for my _theory_, and Major Rawlinson's improved translation of the inscription, all together. Let the reader of "N. & Q." turn to Kæmpfer, p. 341., and he will see the procession that is described in p. 333. Does he think that Ormazd, Xerxes, Darius, or Achæmenes is there? I assure him that they are not mentioned. In fact, the engravings were made long before the date 694 B.C., when Achæmenes began his reign. But it appears that an Egyptian reed is thought sufficient to prop up a structure raised in the sand.

Finally, my great desire is, that some spirited person would take up the matter, and let the old and new system be tried by proper tests; and let the conquered have a decent burial.

T. R. BROWN.

Southwick, near Oundle.

_Parish Registers_ (Vol. iv., p. 473.; Vol. v., pp. 36. 141.).--Notwithstanding the high legal tone which pervades the replies you have received on Parish Registers, I cannot acquiesce in the conclusion that "the genealogical or archæological inquirer has in general no right to inspect," much less to copy, the Register Books. What object could there be in enforcing the _keeping_ and preservation of registers by the officiating ministers, even under the pain of transportation for fourteen years of any person wilfully injuring them, and the cost to parishes for providing iron chests, except it be "for the inspection of persons desirous to make search therein, and obtain copies from and out of the same." (52 Geo. III. cap. 146.) And by the act just quoted, the minister and the public are bound with regard to fees due on searching, and for copies. He is entitled "to all due legal and _accustomed_ fees on such occasions, and all powers and remedies for recovery thereof." And by the 49th section of a more recent Registration Act (6 & 7 Wm. IV.), registers of baptisms and burials may still be kept, and, by inference, the fees are included; because by the 35th section the fees for the examination of the registers created by this last act are defined; but then they apply only to those registers, the power of that act being only prospective, not retrospective.

The following note, made many years ago, from Phillip's _Law of Evidence_ (which, from the number of editions it has passed through, must be supposed to be a work of considerable weight), will probably set the question at rest, as he refers to adjudged cases:

"Parish registers are public books, and persons interested in them
have a right to inspect and take copies of such parts as relate to
their interest.

Geery _v._ Hopkins, 2 _Lord Raym._ 850.; Warriner _v._ Giles, 2
_Stra._ 954.; Mayor of Lond. _v._ Swinhead, 1 _Barnardist._ 454."

The reply, therefore, to the Query of D. (Vol. iv., p. 474.) seems to be, that any person has a right to consult the parish registers, not _gratuitously_, but on payment of the _accustomed_ fee.

H. T. ELLACOMBE.

Clyst St. George.

It may be of use to D. (Rotherfield), to be referred to the _Justice of the Peace_ for 31st January, 1852, wherein, at p. 76., he will find an opinion given, that, for the search the clergyman has a right to charge 1_s._ and no more, whatever may be the number of names, unless the search extended over a period of more than one year, when he would be entitled to 6_d._ extra for every additional year.

REGEDONUM.

_Ornamental Hermits_ (Vol. v., p. 123.).--Some fancy of this kind at Mr. Weld's of Lulworth Castle, in Dorsetshire, exaggerated or highly coloured by O'Keefe, was supposed to afford the title and principal incident of his extravagant but laughable comedy of _The London Hermit; or, Rambles in Dorsetshire_, first played in 1793, with great success, and revived (cut down to a two-act farce) in 1822. I, too, have heard the story as told of Mr. Hamilton and Payne's Hill; but I a little doubt it, because in the elaborate and somewhat pompous description of Payne's Hill there is no mention of the _Hermitage_; and when I saw it as a show place a great many years ago, I saw no building of that description; but, after all, this may have been the original story which O'Keefe transported into Dorsetshire.

C.

_Collars of SS._ (Vol. v., pp. 81. 183.).--Allow me to correct one or two errors into which your correspondent H. L. has fallen.

In the first place, my letter was not intended (nor, I conceive, was that of your correspondent LLEWELLYN) either to support a favourite theory, or to combat a long-established prejudice; but simply to furnish a contribution to MR. FOSS'S list of monumental effigies decorated with this "much-vext" ornament.

As to the mistakes (if mistakes they be) which H. L. assumes, they are not mine, but those of persons whose authority on these subjects H. L. (like the celebrated reviewer who criticised Pindar's Greek without knowing it) might find it awkward to impugn.

I may as well inform him, by the way, that the _corf de mailles_, which originally covered the whole head, as a sort of cowl, was diminished in size until it became little more than a gorget of mail; and appears at last to have formed a portion of the hauberk. The name also changed its orthography: passing, as has been suggested, through the intervening stage of _cap-mail_, until it was corrupted into _camail_. There is, therefore, no ground for "assuming" the ignorance of persons who use the _original_, instead of the _corrupted_ form of a word.

Perhaps H. L. has never heard of a helmet being worn over a bascinet. I can furnish him with a _few_ instances of monumental effigies where both appear. He should study the monument in question before he pronounces the use of the word "helmet" to be a mistake.

I would suggest to H. L. that the next time he appears in your pages he had better append his name in full, that those whom he assails may be better able to judge of the value of his criticism.

I will only add that it is hardly fair to "assume" that a man has never studied a subject which has been his hobby for thirty years; and who might be able to prove, by ocular demonstration, that he has "studied" more monumental effigies than H. L. probably ever dreamt of.

LEWIS EVANS.

_Herschel Anticipated_ (Vol. iv., p. 233., &c.).--It was not Herschel's discoveries relative to the sun's motion, but his theory relative to its physical constitutions, which was anticipated by a person, who was declared to be mad for holding such opinions. Sir David Brewster, in a note to his edition of Ferguson's _Astronomy_, vol. ii. p. 144., says:

"It is a curious fact that the opinions of Dr. Herschel,
respecting the nature of the sun, were maintained by a Dr. Elliot,
who was tried at the Old Bailey for shooting Miss Boydell. The
friends of the Doctor maintained that he was insane, and called
several witnesses to establish this point. Among these was Dr.
Simmons, who declared that Dr. Elliot had, for some months before,
shown a fondness for the most extravagant opinions; and that in
particular, he had sent to him a letter on the light of the
celestial bodies, to be communicated to the Royal Society. This
letter confirmed Dr. Simmons in the belief that this unhappy man
was under the influence of this mental derangement; and, as a
proof of the correctness of this opinion, he directed the
attention of the court to a passage of the letter, in which Dr.
Elliot states, 'that the light of the sun proceeds from a dense
and universal aurora, which may afford ample light to the
inhabitants of the surface (of the sun) beneath, and yet be at
such a distance aloft as not to annoy them.' No objection, says
he, ariseth to that great luminary being inhabited; vegetation may
obtain there, as well as with us. There may be water and dry land,
hills and dales, rain and fair weather; and as the light, so the
season, must be eternal; consequently it may easily be conceived
to be by far the most blissful habitation of the whole system."
(See the _Gentleman's Magazine_, 1787, p. 636.)

W. G.

_Monastic Establishments in Scotland_ (Vol. v., p. 104.).--In reply to CEYREP I would recommend to his notice the following publications; they may assist him materially in his inquiries, viz.:

1. "Moore's List of the Principal Monasteries and Castles in Great
Britain. Revised by John Caley, Keeper of the Records of the Abbey
lands in the Exchequer. 8vo. 1798."

2. "Fragmenta Scoto-Monastica: Memoir of what has been already
done, and what Materials exist, towards the Formation of a
Scottish Monasticon: to which are appended, Sundry New Instances
of Goodly Matter, by a Delver in Antiquity (W. B. Turnbull). 8vo.
1842."

In the Advocates' Library here, there are, I understand, a few MSS. relative to these religious establishments, such as _Rentales_; also Father Richard Hay's MS. entitled _Scotia Sacra_, being an account of the most renowned monasteries in Scotland, with a series of the several bishops, priors, and other governors, &c., written in 1700, folio.

T. G. S.

Edinburgh.

_Kissing under the Mistletoe_ (Vol. v., p. 13.).--The editorial reply to An M.D. seems to me very unsatisfactory. Would it not be more reasonable to refer the custom to the Scandinavian mythology, wherein the mistletoe is dedicated to Friga, the Venus of the Scandinavians; especially when we remember that previous to the introduction of Christianity, the feast of Thor was celebrated by the Northmen at nearly the same period? a fact which also accounts for the Bacchanalian character of the Christian feast. Students of the Edda will remember the importance of the mistletoe in the Scandinavian legends; the story of Loke's attack on Balder hinging upon the parasite character of the plant. It is worth a note in passing, that the holly owes its importance in the Christmas festivities to paganism. The Romans dedicated the holly to Saturn, whose festival was held in December; and the early Christians, to screen themselves from persecution, decked their houses with its branches during their own celebration of the Nativity.

SHIRLEY HIBBERD.

_The Ring Finger_ (Vol. v., p. 114.).--I allow all that has been said, though the Rubric in our Prayer Book directs the ring to be placed _on_ the fourth finger, and held there, &c. Still I have read of the earliest custom being, after repeating the words "With this ring I thee wed," &c., on coming to "In the name of the Father," to place the ring on the top of the thumb; "and of the Son," to place it on the top of the forefinger; "and of the Holy Ghost," to place it on the top of the third finger; _and_, on repeating the word "amen," to put the ring _down_ over the fourth finger; thereby "ratifying, and confirming the same." This seems the most _serious_ conclusion of the matter.

R. F. M.

_Sanctus Bell_ (Vol. v., p. 104.).--The _Glossary of Architecture_ is right in its description, but not in its conclusion. There are many instances where the _Sanctus Bell_, or its remains, still exist in the tower or bell chamber. As _e.g._ at Addington, Bucks, the "Parson's Bell," as it is now called there, is to be seen in a small aperture in the wall of the bell-chamber, exposed to the outside, on the west. A similar aperture, size, and position, but _minus_ the bell, can also be seen in the tower of Merriott, Somerset. The recess in the wall of the tower of Trumpington Church was clearly for the sacristan (perhaps) to stand in to ring the bell. In the ringing chamber in the tower of Halstock, Dorset, is a _wedge-like_ aperture in the wall next the nave; it is about three feet square, and _splays_ from a narrow slit in the church over the tower arch. This was evidently for the sacristan to observe the proper times for ringing the bell. The top of the tower, bell-chamber, &c., had been rebuilt about a hundred years since, which may account for no loop-hole now to be seen. No doubt there are many others.

R. F. M.

_Slang Dictionaries._--The following titles of books of this nature are taken from _A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue_. The second edition, corrected and enlarged. 8vo. London, 1788.

1. "A Caveat for Common Cursetors, vulgarly called Vagabones; set
forth by Thomas Harman, Esquier, for the Utilitie and Proffyt of
hys Naturall Countrye. Newly Augmented and Imprinted, Anno Domini
M.D.LXVII."

2. "The Bellman of London, bringing to light the most notorious
villanies that are now practised in the Kingdom. Profitable for
gentlemen, lawyers, merchants, citizens, farmers, masters of
households, and all sorts of servants, to marke and delightfull
for men to reade. Lege, Perlege, Relege. 1608."

3. "English Villanies, seven severall times prest to death by the
printers; but (still reviving againe) are now the eighth time (as
the first) discovered by lanthorne and candle light. Et cet....
London, 1638."

4. "The Canting Academy; or Villanies discovered: Wherein are
shown the Mysterious and Villanous Practices of that Wicked Crew,
commonly known by the Names of Hectors, Trapanners, Gilts, et
cet., with several new Catches and Songs; also a Compleat Canting
Dictionary both of Old Words and such as are now most in Use: a
Book very useful and necessary (to be known but not practised) for
all People. The Second Edition: London. N. B.--The dedication is
signed R. Head."

5. "Hell upon Earth; or the most pleasant and delectable History
of Whittington's Colledge, otherwise (vulgarly) called Newgate.
Giving an Account of the Humours of those Collegians who are
strictly examined at the Old Bailey, and take their Highest
Degrees near Hyde Park Corner.... London, 1703."

6. "The Scoundrel's Dictionary, 1754."

CRANMORE.

_Modern Greek Names of Places_ (Vol. iv., pp. 470.; Vol. v., p. 14.).--With the utmost deference to so high an authority, on such a subject, as SIR EMERSON TENNENT, I must deny that Cos, Athens, or Constantinople have been called by the Greeks, Stanco, Satines, or Stamboul.

These corruptions have been made by Turks, Venetians, and Englishmen; and in speaking to barbarians the Greek uses barbarous terms to make himself intelligible; but in speaking to another Greek, and in writing, Athens is Athens, Cos is Cos, and Constantinople is ἡ πόλις.

Very few corruptions of names of places have taken place amongst the Greeks; while every island, peak, and every headland in the Ægean cries out against Venetian barbarism.

Patræ is Patras in the mouths of Englishmen, and Patrasso with Italians: the Greeks call it Πατραι, and generally write it Παλαιαι Πατραι.

Corcyra has lost her name, but has received a correct Greek name, Οἱ Κόρυφοι--the peaks--whether of the citadel or of Mount San Salvador. This has become Corfu. Ithaca has lost her name and is now Theaki.

A Greek does not know what place you mean.

I should be obliged if any correspondent can tell me whether Paxo is mentioned by any classical author. It has a plural termination: Οι Παξοι εις τοὺς Παξους.

L. H. J. T.

_Baskerville the Printer_ (Vol. iv., pp. 40. 123. 211.).--For several years past I have had by me a little memorandum in the handwriting of a friend. It states that Baskerville was once foreman to a stonemason, during which time he had cut some lines upon the tombstone of a poor idiot, who was buried in Edgbaston churchyard. The lines are these:

"If th' Innocent are favourites of Heaven,
And little is required where little's given,
My great Creator has for me in store
Eternal Bliss; what wise man would have more?"

A few days since (Jan. 26), being at Birmingham, I visited Edgbaston churchyard, and on making inquiry for the above-mentioned tombstone, was grieved to learn (from one who resembled the sexton) that nothing had been heard of it since the year 1816. It seems that, with many other tombstones, it had been maliciously broken and destroyed in the said year, and that though a reward had been offered for the detection of the criminals, they had never been discovered. Is all this true? or have I given the epitaph correctly? If not, it is more my misfortune than my fault, for I am as accurate on the matter as I have the power of being at present.

RT.

Warmington.

_Story of Ginevra_ (Vol. v., p. 129.).--Your correspondent --> F. is informed that Marwell Old Hall, formerly the residence of the Seymour, and afterwards of the Dacre family, situate between Winchester and Bishops Waltham, is connected by tradition with the story of Ginevra; and the compiler of the _Post Office Directory of Hampshire_ (1848) states, that "_the chest, said to be the identical one, is now the property of the Rev. J. Haygarth, Rector of Upham_," a village in the immediate locality, "_and may be seen in his entrance hall_."

H. EDWARDS.

_Gospel Oaks_ (Vol. ii., p. 407.; Vol. v., p. 157.).--BURIENSIS complains that "the inquiry of STEPHEN has not elicited one answer, nor one additional note of other trees designated as _Gospel Oaks_." I conjecture that the cause of this silence is, that the oaks so called have long since perished. In this neighbourhood there are two iron-works situated near the boundary of the parishes of Tipton and Wednesbury, which are called respectively _Gospel Oak_ Works and Wednesbury _Oak_ Works. The tradition respecting the name of _Gospel Oak_ is, that it was so called in consequence of it having been the practice in ancient times to read under a tree which grew there, a portion of the Gospels on the annual perambulation of the bounds of the parish on Ascension Day. That _Gospel Oak_ and Wednesbury _Oak_ marked the boundary line of the parishes of Tipton and Wednesbury is highly probable.

FABER.

West Bromwich.

Your correspondent BURIENSIS (Vol. v. p. 157.) has supplied a quotation from Mr. Hollingsworth to the effect, that these ancient trees were probably Druidical, under whose "leafy tabernacles" the first Christian missionaries preached. This view of their origin is borne out by the ordinary practice of Christian missionaries to the Heathen of the present day, who are frequently driven to the shelter of some umbrageous giant of the forest, to deliver the Word of Life. In some cases I imagine that it may be found that such trees have been rendered sacred by the superstition of the native inhabitants; and it is scarcely venturing too much in supposing, that as the moral wilderness becomes cultivated, that similar traditions with our own may be handed down to future generations, and especially if we look so far forward as to the time when the sable inhabitants of the centre of Africa may in their progress be occupied by curious questions of a bygone age in _their_ "N. & Q."

EXON.

I quite agree with your correspondent BURIENSIS as to the origin of the title given to various old oak trees in different parts of the country. These trees were no doubt selected on account of either their position, age, or size, as places of assembly for the early Christians, and from them the "Gospel" was, probably, first preached in their respective neighbourhoods.

That these trees were connected with religious observances is evident from the following lines in the 502nd poem of Herrick's _Hesperides_. The poem is addressed "To Anthea:"--

----"Dearest, bury me
Under that holy oak, or _Gospel Tree_;
Where, though thou see'st not, thou may'st think upon
Me, when thou yearly go'st procession."

P. T.

Stoke Newington.

_"Asters with Trains of Fire," &c._ (Vol. v., p. 154.).--MR. HICKSON's objections to this reading are twofold--matter of opinion, and matter of fact: of course, it is only with the latter that I may presume to interfere.

I beg to refer him to the precepts of Polonius to his son, no further than the third scene of the same play, amongst which he will find this line:

"Costly thy habit, as thy purse can buy."

Although it does not prove that "the English language admits of the formation of a perfect sentence without a verb," yet it does show that the verb need not always be expressed; but may be left to the hearer, or reader, to supply, according to the requirements of the context.

The line just quoted is found amongst a number of imperative precepts--the verb to be supplied is therefore the imperative of "to be"--

"Costly (_let_) thy habit (_be_)," &c.

Similarly, the line to which MR. HICKSON takes exception is found amongst a number of described appearances--the verb, therefore, must be in accordance:

"Asters with trains of fire (_appeared_)," &c.

Many better examples _of this most common license_ might doubtless be adduced; but I always like to take the nearest at hand.

A. E. B.

Leeds.

P.S.--MR. HICKSON will find it difficult to confine the portents
of Cæsar's death to _the night time_. All authorities mention the
obscuration of the sun--necessarily from _spots_, if the moon were
eclipsed since sun and moon could not both be _eclipsed_ about the
same time.

_Wiggan, or Utiggan, an Oxford Student_ (Vol. v., p. 78.).--

"Wigan (John) Chr. Ch., M.A., March 22 1720.
---- B. and D.M., July 7, 1727."

appears in _A Catalogue of All Graduates_, &c., created in the University of Oxford, printed at the Clarendon press in the year M.DCCLXXIJ.

W. DN. will also find the following in the same catalogue:--

"Wigan (Geo.) Chr. Ch., M.A., March 28, 1718.
---- DD., Dipl. by, Jan. 19, 1749.
"Wigan (Tho.) Trin. Coll., M.A. Oct. 23, 1767.
"Wigan (Will.) Chr. Ch., M.A., Nov. 23, 1764."

FABER FERRARIUS.

Dublin.

_Hieroglyphics of Vagabonds_ (Vol. v., p. 49.).--I have a cutting from a newspaper of 1849 confirmative of the truth of this practice:--

"MENDICANT FREEMASONRY.--Persons indiscreet enough to open their
purses to the relief of the beggar tribe would do well to take a
readily-learned lesson as to the folly of that misguided
benevolence which encourages and perpetuates vagabondism. Every
door or passage is pregnant with instruction as to the error
committed by the patron of beggars, as the beggar-marks show that
a system of free-masonry is followed, by which a beggar knows
whether it will be worth his while to call into a passage or knock
at a door. Let any one examine the entrances to the passages in
any town, and there he will find chalk marks, unintelligible to
him, but significant enough to beggars. If a thousand towns are
examined, the same marks will be found at every passage entrance.
The passage mark is a cypher with a twisted tail: in some cases
the tail projects into the passage, in others outwardly; thus
seeming to indicate whether the houses down the passage are worth
calling at or not. Almost every door has its marks: these are
varied. In some cases there is a cross on the brick-work, others,
a cypher: the figures 1, 2, 3 are also used. Every person may for
himself test the accuracy of these statements by the examination
of the brickwork near his own doorway ... thus demonstrating that
mendicity is a regular trade, carried out upon a system calculated
to save time and realise the largest profits!"

A. A. D.

"_The bright lamp that_ shone[5] _in Kildare's holy fane_" (Vol. v., p. 87.).--Moore has given a reference himself as to where the story of the "inextinguishable fire of St. Bridget," alluded to in his melody, may be found: viz. Giraldus Camb. _de Mirab. Hibern._ dist. ii. c. 34.

[Footnote 5: Not "lay."]

A. A. D.

_Hyrne_ (Vol. v., p. 152.).--MR. CHADWICK inquires the meaning of this word. In Bosworth's _Anglo-Saxon Dictionary_ I find, "_Hyrne_, a horn, corner;" "_Hirne_, an angle, a corner;" and in Halliwell's _Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words_ I find "_Hirne_, a corner." In many villages in the fen districts of Lincolnshire are found places called the _Hirne_, the _Hurne_, or the _Horn's-end_ all being portions of the respective villages situated in an angle or corner at the extreme end of the parish.

"Horncastle in Lincolnshire, the Banovallum of the Roman
geographer Ravennas, derives its name from its situation in an
angle formed by the junction of two small rivers, the Bane and the
Waring. Horncastle is a corruption of _Hyrncastre_, a
fortification in an angle or corner."

See Weir's _Horncastle_.

P. T.

Stoke Newington.

_Stops, when first introduced_ (Vol. v., p. 1.).--In the _Alvearie, or Quadruple Dictionarie_, by Baret, published in 1580, may be found the comma, colon, semicolon, and period. The semicolon appears, as far as my observation has gone, to have been _there_ used, not as a stop, but as a note of contraction. The point of interrogation is plentifully scattered throughout the same work; as also, the index -->.

FRANCISCUS.

_Heraldical MSS. of Sir H. St. George Garter_ (Vol. v., p. 59.).--Your correspondent as to MSS. formerly at Enmore may learn their fate on applying to Mr. Woodgate, of Lincoln's Inn. I think the MSS. were sent to the then Lord Perceval. Mr. N. B. Acworth, of the English bar, would also probably know.

J. R. P.

_Kingswei, Kings-way, or Kinsey_ (Vol. iv., p. 231.).--In addition to the instances in Oxon and Wilts, already mentioned, the town of Kinsey occurs on the high road leading from Prince's Risborough to Thame. Is _Kinsey_, in this case, a contraction for _Kings-way_, as in Oxon; and is this a continuation of King Athelstan's road?

B. WILLIAMS.

_Fouché's Memoirs._--At Vol. iv., p. 455., on the subject of the Duc d'Enghien's murder, Fouché's _Memoirs_ are quoted in proof that the saying, "C'était pire qu'un crime, c'était une faute," was claimed as his own by that famous police minister. Indeed, I have little doubt of the fact, which, however, can derive no confirmation or authority from the quoted work; for this nominal autobiography has been pronounced, on a regular trial before the French tribunals, an utter cheat and imposition; though referred to by Mr. Alison, in his _History of Europe_, volume the fifth, p. 482. (original edition), as genuine, as well as by Lord Brougham in the third volume of his _Statesmen_; yet with less decided assertion than by the Scotch historian. Fouché's family at once denounced the fabrication, and obtained heavy damages from the printer; who equally succeeded against the writer, Alphons de Beaumont, and was awarded large damages for the imposition. (See _Gentleman's Magazine_ for November, 1842.) It is at present perfectly understood that the sharp and apt antithesis, however immoral, was Fouché's.

Talleyrand's reputation for ready wit fixed on him the paternity of numerous _bons mots_, which have proved to be of alien birth. Voltaire, Piron, Mirabeau, in France; and Chesterfield, Selwyn, Wilkes, &c. in England; with Curran in Ireland, and many others, have similarly obtained credit for pointed expressions not of their utterance, as to the rich are generally given by rumour more than they possess. "On ne prête qu'aux riches," is an apposite proverb, long since indeed stated by the sententious Euripides: "Ὁρῶσσι δὲ οἱ διδόντες εἰς τὰ χρήματα" (_In Fragmentis_). Cicero tells us, in his letter to Volumnius (_Epistol. Famil._ lib. vii. ep. 32.), that the sayings of others had been thus similarly fathered on him: "Ais omnia omnium dicta in me conferri;" and complains, half-humorously and half-seriously, that his supremacy of wit was not sufficiently protected from usurpers or intruders: "Quod parum diligenter possessio _salinarum mearum_, ate procuratore, defenditur," &c.

J. R. (Cork.)

_The Pelican as a Symbol of our Saviour_ (Vol. v., pp. 59. 165.).--Shakspeare, in _Hamlet_, alludes to the popular notion respecting this bird:

"To his good friends thus wide I'll ope my arms,
And like the _kind, life-rendering pelican_,
Repast them with my blood."

The best representation I have ever seen of the pelican feeding her young occurs in the works of a Roman printer, in the early part of the eighteenth century, Rocco Bernabo, who has taken for his device a pelican feeding her five young ones, a crown of thorns encircling them.

The pelican has a long bag or pouch, reaching the entire length of the bill to the neck. In feeding its young, the bird squeezes the food deposited in the bag into their mouths, by strongly compressing it upon its breast with the bill. (See Calmet and Shaw.) Hence the popular idea.

MARICONDA.

Feb. 10. 1852.

_Bow-bell_ (Vol. v., pp. 28. 140.).--Your correspondent W. S. S. is, I think, right in supposing _Bow-bell_ to be almost synonymous with _Cockney_. I quote a passage from the _London Prodigall_, which had once the honour of being attributed to Shakspeare.

"_Enter Sir Lancelot Weathercock Young Flowerdale, &c._ (Sir
Arthur Green-hood, Oliver, &c., had been on the stage before.)

"_Lan._ Sir Arthur, welcome to Lewsome, welcome, by my troth.

What's the matter, man? why are you vext?

_Oli._ Why man, he would press me.

_Lan._ O fie, Sir Arthur, press him? He is a man of reckoning.

_Wea._ I that he is, Sir Arthur, he hath the nobles.
The golden ruddocks he.

_Ar._ The fitter for the warrs: and were he not in favour
With your worships, he should see,
That I have power to press as good as he.

_Oli._ Chill stand to the trial, so chill.

_Flow._ I marry shall he, presse cloth and karsie,
White pot and drowsen broth: tut, tut, he cannot.

_Oli._ Well, Sir, though you see vlouten cloth and karsie, chee a
zeen zutch a karsie coat wear out the town sick a zilken jacket,
as thick a one as you wear.

_Flow._ Well sed, vlitan vlattan.

_Oli._ A and well sed _cocknell_, and _boe-bell_ too. What doest
think cham aveard of thy zilken coat, no fer vere thee."

Page iv.

RT.

Warmington.

_Cou-bache_ (Vol. v., p. 131.).--In MR. SINGER'S note on the word _cou-bache_, in the enumeration of the cognate words which would appear to contradict the usual interpretation, he would seem to have forgotten the Greek Βήσσα, which confirms it, and has precisely the meaning of a shaded mountain valley, and certainly belongs to the same tribe of the Indo-Germanic languages as the pure Saxon bæccha.

RICHARD F. LITTLEDALE.

_White-livered_ (Vol. v., p. 127.).--The expression _white-livered_ had its origin in the auspices taken by the Greeks and Romans before battle, in which the examination of the liver and entrails of the victim formed an essential part. If the liver were the usual shape, and a blood-red colour, the omen was favourable; if pale or livid, it was an augury of defeat. The transition from the victim to the inquirer was easy, and a dastard leader, likely to sustain disgrace, was called "a man of a white liver."

RICHARD F. LITTLEDALE.

Dublin.

"_Experto crede Roberto_" (Vol. v., p. 104.).--Your correspondent W. L. may perhaps find the origin of the above phrase in the following epitaph copied from the floor of Exeter College Chapel, Oxford:

"Quam subito, quam certo, experto crede Roberto
Pride AUX, Fratri Matthiæ minori
Qui veneno infæliciter com[-]
[-]Esto intra decem horas
Misere expiravit.
Sept. 14, 1627."

What is the meaning of the capitals? Close by is the following:

"Hic jacet in pannis patris op[-]
[-]tima gemma Johannes
Prideaux
Mathiæ gemellus qui im[-]
[-]mature sequutus est fratres
August 1'o A.D. 1636."

H. H. G.

Frognal.

"_Oh! Leoline_," _&c._ (Vol. v., pp. 78. 138.).--

"Oh! Leolyn, be obstinately just;
Indulge no passion, and deceive no trust:
Let never man be bold enough to say,
Thus, and no farther, shall my passion stray:
The first crime, past, compels us into more,
And guilt grows _fate_, that was but choice, before."

_Athelwold_, a Tragedy, by Aaron Hill.
Act V. Scene: The Garden.

These lines were first quoted by Madan, in his translation of Juvenal, as a note on the words--

"Nemo repente fuit turpissimus."--Juv. _Sat._ ii. 83.

He prefaced the lines by confessing that he could not recollect where he had met with them; but Gifford, in his translation of Juvenal (3rd edition, 1817), assigns them to "_Athelwold_, a forgotten tragedy by Aaron Hill." I have referred to the play, for the sake of obtaining a correct copy of the quotation, and a reference to Act and Scene.

C. FORBES.

Temple.

The Word "_Blaen_" (Vol. v., p. 128.).--The British word _Blaen_, a frequent prefix, means top point, or fore part: hence _Blaenffrwyth_, first fruit; _Blaenafon_, source of a river, &c.

E. ALLEN.

_Stoke_ (Vol. v., pp. 106. 161.).--At Erbistock, near this place (it is called "Saint Erbyn's stoke" in the Valor Ecclesiasticus made temp. Henry VIII.), there is a stone weir across the river Dee, which there washes the base of the rock on which the Parish church is built. The use of this weir is now only to divert a part of the stream to a corn mill; but a weir may have been erected here in ancient times for the purpose of catching salmon, as it is the first weir above Chester on the river Dee. The name of Saint Erbyn is not to be found in the Calendar of Welsh Saints; but I apprehend that the authority of the commissioners of Henry VIII. may be deemed sufficient for placing his name in the next edition of the Calendar that shall be published.

-->

Wrexham Regis.

The quotation from _Bosworth_ is doubtless correct. Blomfield, in his _History of Norfolk_, when describing _Stoke-ferry_, says:

"This town stands on the river Wissey, and in the Book of Domesday
it is wrote '_Stoches_;' not taking its name from _stoch_, (i.e.)
some wood, but from _stow_, a dwelling or habitation, and _ches_,
or _kes_, by the water."

There are two villages of the name of _Stoke_ in Norfolk, and both are situate on small streams.

J. F. F.

West Newton.