Chapter VII: Section 1: , as to what extent that applies to farm workers. Supposing (3)

I know it was our opinion in New York that such a bill could not be passed through the Legislature. The only certainty of getting a bill through the Legislature was limiting it to extra-hazardous trades and to trades that were non-competitive. That policy of course has this disadvantage: There is some doubt as to whether a classification along those lines will be upheld as reasonable by the courts, and I confess that we have some anxiety as to whether the bill we have induced the Legislature to pass will be held to be constitutional on that account. On the other hand, along that line it is possible politically to make a beginning, and I am inclined to think that it would be easier, if we can, to get the thing started for extra-hazardous industries and then to extend our definition of hazardous industries and gradually take them all in as the public is convinced that it is a good policy and a great improvement over the Employers' Liability Law. That would be easier, I believe, than to work along the other line of trying to take in all the trades at the outset. Starting on that line would involve a very low schedule of compensation and then trying to advance our schedule of compensation to what we would feel was adequate.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: But how about the desirability of it in case you feel it could be done?

PROF. SEAGER: Oh, I assume that we all agree that that is what we want if we can get it.

CHARLES MCCARTHY (Wisconsin): In looking over the New York Bill, and after hearing the argument of Professor Seager, I cannot help saying something about this bugaboo of interstate competition. I have just returned from Germany and England, where I have been some months examining the workmen's compensation insurance scheme. You are now discussing the scope of the bill and I want to tell the delegates here that the idea here in America that we in Wisconsin cannot start this scheme because of competition from other States, has a parallel in the commissions in Europe.

Europe is about as big as the United States and you have all these countries competing, one with another. You have severe competition between Germany and England, and you find Germany not only bearing the burden of accident insurance, of sickness insurance and invalidity insurance, but the German manufacturer actually adds out of his own pocket to what he has been required by law to pay, sometimes to the extent of fifty or sixty per cent. more, in bringing about many improvements in the conditions of the workingmen, and I state here that that is one of the basic conditions of German prosperity. I want to put that on the record here because I want the manufacturers of America to send representatives to Europe, and they will find that what I am saying is true; that the reason why Germany is driving English-made goods out of the market is because this very burden that they talk about is an asset and not a liability.

Books have been written about this subject and I have had the honor of reading the advance sheets of the book by Dr. Frankel and Mr. Dawson, which has not yet been printed, but these books do not really show why Germany is beating England, notwithstanding this so-called "burden" upon the shoulders of the German manufacturer. Germany is passing from an agricultural country into a great manufacturing country. In doing so it is necessary for Germany to extend her manufactories out into the small towns. You all know what that means. Some of you from Massachusetts have seen the shoe factory leave Brockton to go out and get some cheaper help somewhere, and then it comes back to Boston, because in Boston they can get the skilled and intelligent help which must go into the product in order to make the community prosperous and to make the goods of that community sell.

When a German manufacturer goes to a small town he says to the workman: "You come out to my town and live there. You will have your accident insurance, your old age pension and your sickness insurance, and besides that I am going to get a house for you out there, and a little plot of land, and I am going down in my pocket and add something to that invalidity insurance, and I am going to do something for tuberculosis prevention, and I am going to have a sanitary factory, and when you come out there you can settle down and marry and raise your children, and when they grow up I am going to put them into an industrial school after they have left the public school at the age of fourteen, and they can go to that industrial school until they are eighteen."

Now all of these things go to make up an intelligent population in Germany, where the children grow up under the conditions of sanitation and education, and with the contentment that comes from the fact that a man knows he can settle down and marry and have children. The manufacturers in Germany realize that this is not a burden, but that it is the biggest asset they have in Germany. I wanted to point that out to you and have the delegates go back from here with the idea in their minds that there is more to be said upon this question of interstate competition than has been brought out as yet.

England is in a desperate condition because Germany is cutting into the markets of England throughout the world. England had to adopt her Workmen's Compensation Act, and she adopted a compensation plan that Mr. Dawson knows is excellent, and it costs about four times what it does in Germany. I want to get it on the record that there are no adequate figures or facts presented as yet as to the difference between the mutual organizations of Germany and the private insurance organizations of England. I do not know why that is, but Mr. Mitchell said yesterday that the private insurance companies similar to those of England might prevent accidents. I want to warn you before you go back, that there is the greatest difference in the world between the mutual organizations in Germany in the safety and conditions of the workingman's life, as compared with the third party insurance in England. I have never found in England a private company having any inspection whatsoever of dangerous industries. I visited many factories and went into every insurance company in London and asked them what they did to prevent accidents, and they were doing practically nothing. I went into the sawmills in Germany and in England and compared the safety devices side by side, and I want to tell you that where the manufacturers in Germany combine under the law as they are compelled to do, they deal with their men with a hundred times greater humanity than under the conditions in England.

I am sure of what I am saying and I am going on record. I want every manufacturer and employer to investigate what I am saying here. I say that you can get insurance by mutually organizing and having some provision in your bills for mutual organization of employers a great deal cheaper and with a great deal more regard for humane conditions than you can by the private proposition, unless you compel all insurance companies by some other statute to make inspections before they place their risk.

I also want this suggestion to appear on the record. Some sort of provision should be made so that the private insurance companies will not knock out the old men on poorer risks. When they started in England they did knock out some of the old men in the employments, but now that thing has been settled. It ought to be put here in statutory form, because when you get the third party in here between the manufacturers and the employes, you are getting people who do not put their hearts into the thing.

I know this will be a matter of controversy, but I want to offer it here. I want to tell you not to fear this bugaboo of interstate competition. Nobody wants to see the State of Wisconsin more prosperous than I do, and I am sure that if our Wisconsin manufacturers go forward and make that investment, they will put intelligence into the product and add a happiness to the people that will build up the State. If it were not so then the principle of tariff would be no good; if it were not so then China and Japan with cheap labor would have been beating us to-day; if it were not so slavery would have been the best thing for this country instead of the worst.

MR. DAWSON: An investigation as to the cost of insurance in the various countries of Europe will be undertaken by the United States Bureau of Labor, as requested by this Conference at its session at Washington.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Gentlemen, is it not true that we have the best judgment of the great financial interests in this country to the effect that this interstate competition amounts to very little, and that that judgment is best evidenced by reason of the fact that nearly all of the big industries that are doing business both locally and throughout the United States are adopting a scheme that voluntarily places a greater burden upon their shoulders than the law has been providing?

MR. INGALLS (Wisconsin): We have in Racine a perfect illustration of that. A very large concern there not only adopted the accident but the pension system as well, so that we do not fear anything of that kind.

DOCTOR ALLPORT: It would seem to me that the question of whether we should attempt to adopt or recommend a tentative form of law or code of law in this matter is really a question of whether we have profited by the historical aspects of this subject. I think in a measure we are a little too much wedded to what people are wont to call the philosophy of individualism. Every State is passing laws of all kinds, and no State has any particular intention of following another State.

The historical aspect of this matter with reference to interstate competition and with reference to the selection of certain trades has already been threshed out abroad, to the satisfaction of the European governments, trades people and manufacturers, and it would not be a bad idea perhaps if for two or three minutes we consider the historical aspects of this subject, as applied to England and to Germany.

We all know the inception of this thing began in Germany, but they never formulated it until about 1883. Before that time, however, Gladstone in 1880 had been forced to make up some kind of a law for England which was passed in 1880 as the Employers' Liability Act. That was based on what is now known to be the crudest and most unsatisfactory of all principles--principles which are bound to be local and unsatisfactory and which do not cover the situation, and which give the workmen practically no remedy except before the court. That is the stage which this country has reached if it has reached any stage at all. Few of our States have reached a point where they have anything like a satisfactory Employers' Liability Act. That is the initial stage when the child first commences to walk. Germany went far beyond that. She saw the failure of the Gladstone Act, and went to the bottom of the matter by deciding to abolish entirely all matters of liability and put it altogether on another basis. Upon that basis European-Continental law has been modeled from that time to this; Germany always in advance but the other countries following as close as existing laws will permit.

In 1890 Germany adopted practically an absolute act, and every State on the European continent has now followed the lead of Germany. The question that has come to us historically and in an evolutionary manner, is whether we should follow the lead of European governments in this matter and do as they have done, adopt the lead of Germany, who ignored entirely the matter of interstate competition and passed a law placing every trade under the Workmen's Compensation Act, or whether we should undertake to work out this matter for ourselves in the crude indefinite way in which England has worked it out.

In England this matter of interstate competition came up. England worked for seventeen years under the Gladstone Employers' Liability Act, but finally Asquith and Chamberlain and a combination of the Liberal and Conservative parties, got together and formulated another act in 1897 which they called the first Workmen's Compensations. That act applied, as we attempt now to apply it in certain of our States, to certain limited trades and occupations.

Prior to that time the various counties and organizations of Great Britain appointed committees which investigated these matters to decide whether they should pass a law to collect statistics and decide whether they should adopt a law including all of these trades or only a portion of them. They decided, in view of the uncertain character of the legislative elements in England, that they would apply it to a limited portion only of the trades, and so they passed the Chamberlain Act of 1896. But they soon saw not only the benefits that came to all of England from the application of the principle, but they saw that in order to satisfy the other workmen who demanded the same thing, that they must apply it to all of the trades, and so finally they passed the Asquith Act of 1906, which is now in operation, and applies practically to all of the trades in Great Britain. They were not so wedded to this unfortunate philosophy of ours which was the cause of our constitution, and I suppose which led America first to separate itself from England and which has dominated American life ever since--this philosophy of independence, this philosophy of individualism. If we cannot see the benefits that come to us from following the European systems, we will have to work one out ourselves. But in my judgment and in the judgment of a great many others more competent to speak authoritatively upon the subject than I am, it would seem as though it was the height of folly for us to ignore the example of Germany and twenty-two Continental Governments which have followed the lead of Germany.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: I would like to hear some of the employers discuss this question. Would the employers feel that they were treated fairly if we singled out a few of the more hazardous industries and did not cover all industries in the same way, in proportion to the number of accidents?

JOHN MITCHELL (New York): I think we must approach this subject as a practical proposition. I want to make this observation: If these bills include domestic and agricultural labor, we are not going to pass the bill. If we are going to work out a practical proposition with the hope of passing our bills, it seems to me we must exclude agricultural laborers and those employed in domestic service. I do not believe the farmers will favor this legislation if it affects them, and I think that the number of accidents occurring on farms is not sufficient to make their inclusion necessary for the success of the bill.

My judgment is that we should start with men working in dangerous employments, and then perhaps with a few years' experience under a bill of that kind, we may decide to include the agricultural industry. The industries which need it most are the ones in which there are the greatest number of accidents.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: What is the harm of reporting the bill complete to the Legislature, and then when it gets in there as a practical proposition, let them pass it, and if they can not, let them cut out such industries as they have to?

MR. MITCHELL: The difficulty is, if the farmers are apparently justified, the men who represent the agricultural districts will vote against it, and the legislator who represents a manufacturing district and who personally might not feel hostile to the legislation, will vote against it, because he does not want to put the burden on the farmers.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Supposing some fellow offers an amendment striking out these industries which you would leave out in the first place, can they not pass the bill just the same?

MR. MITCHELL: Yes, but I am getting at the best way to approach it.

MR. HARPER (Illinois): The experience in Illinois on Commission bills has been that it is vastly better to have no opposition at all, and to eliminate all possibility of amendment if it is possible. In other words, if the Commission submits a bill to the Illinois Legislature, they are inclined to take it as it stands, especially if both sides interested in the matter are on the Commission, because they say, "Well, this matter has been agreed to and we have no special interest in it. If it is all right we will pass it." Hence, if we put something in that requires amendment, it is liable to stir up discord and dissension; and my personal opinion would be that it would be wise to avoid that if possible.

On the subject of classification I think it would be wise to make a classification based upon the hazardous trades; not the non-competitive trades, but the hazardous trades, and make it inclusive and as broad as possible. Include in the hazardous trades the non-competitive trades, as they have done in New York, but do not start with any one especially, because our courts here have gone further on class legislation than anything else, and I think it would be dangerous for us here to include merely non-competitive trades and call them hazardous or extra-hazardous. In my judgment it would be much better to call them extra-hazardous and include in that list the non-competitive industries.

EDWIN R. WRIGHT (Illinois): I wanted to suggest that it would of course be desirable to take in every occupation, but if we take in the farm labor and servants of Illinois, we cannot possibly secure the passage of this bill. If we burden our bill with too many classifications and too many occupations, the moment we get to Springfield, interested parties, the farmers to start with, would ask to have the farm labor stricken out, and when you once start the snowball rolling down the hill, you would strike the meat out of the bill and lose the confidence of the Legislature, and the moment you do that you lose the bill as a whole. It would not make any difference if nine-tenths of the bill were correct, you would have overshot the mark one-tenth and you would lose the entire bill because they would cut it all to pieces.

We have a great many dangerous occupations in this State. A great many men are killed or seriously injured on railroads every day. Five men are either killed or injured in mines of Illinois every day, and the proportion keeps right up through the trades, so that it is pretty hard to say where the danger starts or stops, but must classify the different trades in this State if we hope to get anything at all.

In comparing conditions here with conditions in foreign countries, you will have to take this question into consideration: In foreign countries, as I understand the situation, they raise the workers there, and if we raised the workers in this State we would soon arrive at the conclusion they have arrived at in England and Germany. Here we import the workmen ready-made and grown-up. We do not grow them in this country, and most of the men who are killed are foreign born, or a large percentage of them. If we fail in securing the compensation law, and it has got to take its regular course, we can get the same results through a different channel. Stop bringing in the men who are grown up, and raise them here, and you won't have the workers to kill, but you will have to conserve the workers in this State and in this nation. Out of 220 firms reporting in Illinois, there are over 200 accidents a month.

MR. INGALLS (Wisconsin): The idea in this plan is to include the railroads and public service transportation company employes as a whole. Now, is it not wise to consider for a moment the distinction between those two classes of occupation? All the gentlemen here will agree perhaps that so far as railways are concerned, and public service corporations of that character, there isn't any question but what the Legislature or Congress can pass a compulsory compensation law. You do not have to classify either at all; any transportation company which gets its right to exist and to operate from the Legislature or Congress can be controlled by the Legislature or Congress with reference to compensation for its injured employes. That industry can positively be handled in that way.

Congress has introduced and passed a resolution for the appointment of a Commission, which will consider that very subject. Those measures are to be made uniform; the State could readily agree upon a plan along that line, and it seems to me that with the subject handled with that idea in view you can pass, under our constitution, a compulsory compensation law for all railway employes. And those engaged in interstate commerce could be handled by Congress and thus make a uniform system.

As to what occupations should be considered, none of us has considered in Wisconsin, so far as our committee is concerned, that we necessarily ought to include farm laborers or domestic servants. Of course our plan here is different and the discussion seems to relate to what classification we shall have under an absolute system, which is quite a different question from that in Wisconsin. I can readily see how the farmers and employers of domestic servants would be inclined to oppose a measure as strong and radical as to include all such employes. I agree with the other speakers that in presenting that matter to the Legislature you ought to present it as you think it will be sustained by the Legislature rather than to ask for things that you know yourselves you probably would not be able to get. In fact, I think it might be well to keep in mind, in discussing the occupations, what you can do positively and what there is a great deal of doubt about being able to do, on the theory of an absolute compulsory system.

MR. RANNEY: When the International Harvester Company organized their industrial insurance plan they omitted all employes except those working in their mines, in their plant, and on their railroads. We have some 2500 men in our sales department and experts working out on farms who are not included in that plan, because we felt that going beyond the industries was rather a dangerous proposition. Hence, we included about 35,000 employes and excluded about 2500.

MR. BLAINE (Wisconsin): I think that if there is any justification for this sort of legislation it is found in the fact that the industry or trade should bear the burden and not the workmen.

I have contended also from the beginning that farm laborers and domestic servants should not be included. Farmers as they conduct their occupation in this country to-day do not have any control whatever over the price or distribution of their products, and hence they have no opportunity whatever to transfer the cost of industrial accidents to the consumer. They are not organized. If they were organized into a vast Society of Equity in every State of the Union I doubt not but what they could control and dictate who should pay the cost of this new burden, if it is going to be an additional burden.

The other industries are organized. They cover vast areas of territory, and they know how to transfer the cost of production. The hazard, too, is greater in our industries than in our farming communities. I think, however, that under the Wisconsin plan we have taken care of the farmer, and I apprehend no danger whatever from that source, because he need not come under the plan unless he wants to. He will be independent of it.

REUBEN MCKITRICK (Wisconsin): In an article written by Professor Farnam, statistics are given as to the comparative number of accidents in farming and agricultural pursuits and in the industries, and while I cannot state the figures in absolute terms at this moment, the percentage given is higher for laborers upon the farms than upon the railroads, for instance.

That statement is borne out also in the accident rates for farm laborers as compared with the rates for men in general manufacturing industries throughout the State. The accident rates are higher for the farm laborers, and so if you are going to work on a basis of establishing a classification on account of the hazardous employment, it seems to me the farmer would have to be included.

(In closing the discussion on Question 1, the following resolution was offered by Doctor Allport, but not voted upon, the unanimous consent to its adoption, required under the By-Laws, not being granted:

"_Resolved_, That it is the sense of this Conference, that State Compensation Laws should be framed to cover all hazardous manufacturing industries, and that any manufacturing industry in which accidents occur shall be declared classified as hazardous. That this classification shall not include farm or domestic labor."

Upon John Mitchell's motion, Commissioner Charles P. Neill, Mr. H. V. Mercer, Dr. John B. Andrews, Mr. M. M. Dawson, Dr. Lee K. Frankel and Dr. William H. Tolman were authorized to represent the Conference at the International Congress of Social Insurance to be held in September, at The Hague, and to extend on behalf of the association an invitation to the International Congress to meet in the United States in 1912.)

CHAIRMAN MERCER: The second question is: Do you want the liability in whatever industries you cover to be an absolute liability; or do you want to make a law that will permit a contract to be made by the employer and employe?

If nobody wants to be heard on that we will pass to the next question, because that is largely a constitutional question of what you _can_ do, and you all want to accomplish the same results, as far as you can.

The third question is: Whether, in your judgment, we should have a double or a single liability, if we could get what we want. Do you want to repeal the common law and statutory remedies or do you want to add the compensation act and leave the others as they stand?

JOHN FLORA (Illinois): As a member of the Chicago Federation of Labor, and knowing the views of that organization, I want to say that it is the unanimous desire of that portion of the workmen of the State of Illinois that we first have in the State of Illinois a law repealing the common law defenses of the assumption of risks, contributory negligence and the fellow-servant act. We hold, as a body of workmen, that no compensation law, I do not care how good you make it, will be worth the paper it is written on unless those defenses of the employer are taken away from him. Then we do not care whether it is elective or compulsory. If you take away the defenses of the employer along those lines, you can make an elective law, and he is compelled to accept it in order to escape the results of the statutory law.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Are you willing to repeal all the common law, not only the defenses, but the right to recover if the compensation plan covers the whole field?

MR. FLORA: I am not at liberty to state that at the present time. I am careful in making my remarks, because I would first want to consult my constituents on any questions of that kind. I do know this, however, that the working people of Chicago do not want to give up the right of going under the law as it stands to-day and as they have it in England. We want the right, if we do not like the compensation, to go to court. As a matter of fact, I think it is rather a foolish idea that is entertained. If we can get a compensation law in this State as good, for instance, as the one that Wisconsin recommends, personally, I am going to write in my dying request that my wife shall not be fool enough to go to common law, but to take the compensation, because, I think, she will come out better in the end.

I am gathering statistics in Cook County as to the accidents that have resulted in death, and I find in every case where they have gone to court they have received a great deal less than if they had settled with their employers. The largest amounts that have been recovered, after taking out the costs of a court procedure, have been less than what they would have received if they had settled with their employers in 150 cases that I have so far investigated. Therefore, I think, the idea that the working people have--that they want access to the courts under the law--is more of a bugaboo than anything else, and that after a good compensation law is passed we will have a great deal of trouble in our organization in trying to teach the people to take the compensation and stay out of the courts.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Is it not true that the laboring men think now that they ought to have both systems left open to them, because they are afraid they are being handed a "gold brick" by the compensation plan, if their right to recovery under the common law is taken away from them?

MR. FLORA: Yes; if you have had many dealings with working people you will know that they are always afraid of a "gold brick."

DR. MCCARTHY (Wisconsin): Do you not believe that after a discussion with the working people they will realize the situation and understand it better? I know in talking with the labor representatives up in Wisconsin for the last two or three years before the Legislature, that they are gradually beginning to understand what a compensation act is. I think the sentiment is changing among our labor people in Wisconsin, and I believe this winter they are going to accept the compensation act without asking for their common law rights.

JOHN MITCHELL: I do not believe there should be any hesitancy in answering that question. The fact of the matter is that the working people want the right to sue in order to make the employers careful. We all know, of course, that under any compensation that is proposed here they are simply averaging up the compensation. That is to say, a man who is probably entitled to anything at all under any law we now have, gets something; and the man who is entitled to a great deal does not get so much.

DR. MCCARTHY: Do you think it will make the employer more careful?

MR. MITCHELL: Of course I do. I believe that if it cost an employer $20,000 to kill a man he would be careful. If it is expensive for an employer to kill men, he will protect them, but the great difficulty in this country is that it is not expensive to kill men. It is the judgment, I think, of nearly every one who has investigated this matter, that human life is entirely too cheap; it is not expensive enough for the employers who injure their workmen.

DR. MCCARTHY: The employers only pay one rate, any way. It falls on the insurance companies. Why should the employers be more careful?

MR. MITCHELL: Because their insurance rates are fixed by the number of accidents or the number of recoveries. I dare say in England the number of accidents is not as high as it is here. In fact, a representative of an English insurance company told me the other day that the British Government pays 30 cents per capita for mine inspection, and their total expenditure amounts to $6,000,000 annually. I dare say that while our population is double the population of Great Britain, that we do not pay in the whole United States $2,000,000 dollars a year in either factory or mining inspection, where as a little nation of 40,000,000 people is spending $6,000,000 annually. That is one reason, I think, why the accident rate is so much lower in England than it is in the United States.

MR. PARKS (Massachusetts): I have heard a great deal about this double liability plan where the workman, failing to win his suit at common law, would be entitled to compensation under the compensation act. I believe in Mr. Mitchell's idea in regard to that, and I believe that is the idea of the majority of the workmen. The cry in Massachusetts is that they want something different from the present employers' liability act. I am not so enthusiastic a laboring man as to think that we are going to get the employers' liability act so amended that we will take all of that grievance away from the act. In fact, if we got all of the defenses taken away from the employer there would be no need of a compensation act.

We have had that bill before the Massachusetts Legislature for a number of years, and we have not heard any great talk about workmen demanding this or that right under the employers' liability act. They have been asking for something to take the place of the employers' liability act. They want a workman's compensation act. I do not want to see this thing come up from the workmen themselves, because I think it is going to stop this workmen's compensation movement. If they continually rise and say that the workmen demand this and demand that it will mean that the workmen will get nothing. I have had considerable experience in the Massachusetts Legislature in agitating labor legislation, and, if I do say it, I think Massachusetts in recent years has put more remedial labor legislation on the statute books than probably any other State in the Union, with the possible exception of New York. I give way to New York, because we like to follow New York, but I cannot say that of the other States of the nation. Personally, I would like to see the workmen get all they possibly can get, but we cannot impose too many restrictions on the employers, and if we recommend in the different States the taking away of practically all the defenses of the employer under the employers' liability act, and at the same time recommend the workmen's compensation act, the whole thing will fall through and we will get nothing. I believe we ought to go easy and get something that we can put through.

I am a believer in fixing up everything before you put the bill into the Legislature, and have some kind of an understanding between the contending parties, so that when your hearing comes up both sides are pretty nearly agreed on the same plan. Take away all opposition before you have your hearing, because the minute you start opposition you begin the death of the bill. It is a slow illness, but it means death. If we can bring about something that will not be too radical, that will not be too harsh on the employers, we will get something for the workmen.

I believe, as Mr. Mitchell said, that the workman ought to have his right under the common law, but failing in that he should not be allowed to go to the compensation act. I do not believe in that; it is a nice thing, and I would like to see the workmen have it, but it is not fair to the other side.

MR. BLAINE (Wisconsin): On this question of double liability I would suggest that the farmer under the Wisconsin plan will study this law and will learn the benefits of it, and either through mutual insurance companies, as they have mutual fire insurance companies to-day, or something of that sort, he will, no doubt, come under the law and be glad to do so, because it will be a positive benefit to him. The double liability is somewhat debatable. Under our plan we take away certain defenses. If we take away those defenses from the employer, and leave the employe the right to sue at common law, and also the right to compensation under the act in the event of failure to win his suit, I think we are doing something unfair toward the employer and something that the employe does not want. I do not believe that in Wisconsin the Federation of Labor would demand that sort of a measure. In fact, I am led to believe that they are now prepared to meet the committee upon a very reasonable ground as to the double compensation, and I do believe that while our bill provides that the right of election shall take place at the time of employment, that we will be able to meet the committee on the fair proposition that the right of election shall take place at the time of the accident, but that that right shall apply to accidents happening by reason of the negligence of the employer or through his failure to supply the proper safety appliances for his machines.

MR. FLORA (Illinois): Of what value would a compensation law be to the workman in the State of Illinois particularly, where we have no employers' liability law, if the gate were left open for the insurance company or the mutual benefit company, or if the employer could bring in the old common law doctrine of contributory negligence, assumption of risk, and so forth? What would prevent the employer or the insurance company, if we did not repeal those laws, from bringing those in and keeping the workingman out of his compensation under a compensation law? I would like to know what protection the working people would have in that case.

I find also that too many labor representatives are too much imbued with the idea of protecting the other side. I believe in letting the other fellow take care of his own side. He is big enough to do it.

MR. PARKS (Massachusetts): If they had a workman's compensation act in Illinois the workmen would draw whatever the compensation act said they should draw.

MR. FLORA: Cannot they bring in the law of contributory negligence?

MR. PARKS: No; not under the workmen's compensation act; you are entitled to so much, if an injury occurs, without regard to the liability.

As to Mr. Flora's statement that there are too many labor representatives who want to look out for the other side, I find that you get more for the workmen by showing a little consideration for the other side than by being radical.

MR. RANNEY (Illinois): In answer to Mr. Flora's question, I attended the National Manufacturers' Association meeting in New York and talked with about fifty or seventy-five large employers of labor, and there was not one of them that was in favor of a fair employers' liability law. But what they want to know is definitely what this is going to cost them. If they have got to be liable for every accident, they have got to know not only the expense under the compensation act, but the additional expense under an action at common law, which is an unknown quantity. I know that large employers in general are in favor of a fair compensation act, but I do not think they are in favor of double liability, because they will never know where they are. The laboring man quite properly wants to have a fair compensation act and wants a fair amount, but if he elects to go to common law, he should take that chance. Otherwise he will get a fair compensation without any legal action whatever.

MR. INGALLS: Would a liberal rate be more preferable to the employers than a double liability?

MR. RANNEY: I think it would.

MR. INGALLS: Of course, if you can fix the rates all right it might go a long way toward covering the proposition.

MR. RANNEY: I am not speaking for any employer, but I think that if a bill is adopted that is fair to both parties, that the employer should have some protection on that side. I am simply voicing what Mr. Mitchell said yesterday, that he was not in favor of the English act, which gives double liability.

MR. MITCHELL: I am not in favor of double liability, but I am in favor of the alternative.

MR. RANNEY: I do not think the employers would have any objection to an alternative, but they would not be in favor of a double liability where they might have to fight the case in court and then in the event of their winning the suit the workman could come in under the compensation act and get compensation. That does not seem to me to be fair.

DR. MCCARTHY: Do you want the election before or after the accident?

MR. MITCHELL: After.

DR. MCCARTHY: If the employers' liability acts that have been passed were any good, or could be amended in any way to stop litigation, we would not be here. England tried for nearly a hundred years to modify the employers' liability act. The only thing we are here for is to knock out the everlasting cost of litigation, and the most perfect act that we can get will be the one that will knock out this expensive litigation. If a man is entitled to elect after he gets hurt there is going to be an awful confused state of affairs and the tendency, I believe, will be to increase litigation, because the temptation will be constantly before that man through the attorneys coming to him to go into litigation.

MR. MITCHELL: In England there are less suits under the English employers' liability law than there were three or four years ago, and every year shows a less number. On the other hand, there are a great number under the compensation act. That demonstrates that in England, even with the double liability, the men are not suing under the employers' liability law.

DR. ALLPORT (Illinois): I can give you the figures on the employers' liability law and workmen's compensation act for 1908, and that may perhaps enlighten the Conference in regard to the exact status of the act at this time. Out of 2065 deaths in trade accidents in 1908, only 524 out of those cases were made the basis of proceedings, or not much more than one-fourth of them, in the county courts, and only 12 suits were brought for damages under the employers' liability law. In other words, only 12 of those 524 suits took advantage of the old Gladstone act to bring a suit for damages under the double liability.

PROF. F. S. DEIBLER: I think a great many of the suits that come up in England are suits to determine whether the accidents occurred in due course of employment.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: I have a letter from Mr. Gillette that does not exactly come under this heading, but I think you may be glad to hear it at this time. It reads as follows:

MINNEAPOLIS, MINN., June 9, 1910.

_Mr. H. V. Mercer, City._

DEAR SIR: Our study abroad developed a few things that stand
out so clearly that I should like to have you know them before
you go to Chicago. They are matters that ought to be carefully
safeguarded in legislation of this kind.

First, the cost. Even after the act is most carefully drawn
and the compensations are restricted to the utmost, the cost
is bound, in my opinion, to be two or three times as great
as under the present system. This means, of course, that the
compensations must not exceed one-half wages in any event, and
the death benefits must be limited as well as compensations
for total disability. The payments to children must be graded
according to the number, with an outside limit and there must
be a waiting period without compensation at any rate not
less than two weeks, and I think thirty days before benefits
begin, and these benefits must not be retroactive in case the
disability extends beyond the two weeks or the thirty days. In
other words, every economy must be inserted and even then I
believe the cost will be increased from two to two and one-half
times.

Then the doctor question wants to be carefully considered.
France is having a serious time over the doctor question. It
is the curse of their system, and they are also experiencing
great difficulty with the matter in Germany and England. If
the English law had been left the way Mr. Chamberlain intended
it, so that an independent doctor could have been called in at
the request of _either_ instead of both parties, it would have
saved them all kinds of trouble.

Then there is another matter that ought to be carefully
considered, and that is the matter of discrimination against
agent or employe physically imperfect. The situation in
England to-day is beginning to force a physical examination of
employes. Mr. Holmes of the Hosiery Workers' Federation stated
to me that in his opinion there were 150,000 English workmen
who could not obtain employment by reason of excessive age or
physical imperfections.

They are having a lot of difficulty in Germany over various
questions arising out of their law. Over 17 per cent. of the
claims get into litigation. This looks rather discouraging
to us. Of course this arises largely from the fact that this
litigation costs the workmen nothing.

I should like to write a few hundred pages on this subject, but
I haven't time.

You might be interested to know that while in England the risks
are practically all insured in private companies, the cost to
the employer is less in England than it is in Germany, France
or Austria. In France about 25 per cent. of the risks are not
insured, and of the remainder about 60 per cent. are carried in
private insurance, and 40 per cent. in mutual companies. The
conditions and character of the workmen are so different over
there from those existing in America that it is pretty hard to
estimate the comparative costs if one of the foreign acts was
transmitted to this country. Beside that the rates of wages are
very much lower, although of course the benefits, being based
on the wage rate, are nearly in proportion.

The above estimate of cost of two and one-half times our
existing cost is based on a contribution of 20 per cent. by the
workmen. It looks as if the thing would have to resolve itself
into a matter of some form of mutual insurance, both employer
and employe contributing to the cost, or with a waiting period
or else a longer waiting period, and a fund provided by the
employers to take care of the accidents, the employes providing
a fund to take care of sickness and temporary disabilities
during the waiting period.

I am now having my notes written up, and will soon have a table
of the comparative costs in England, Germany, Belgium, Austria
and France, and possibly Denmark and Sweden.

Yours very truly,

GEORGE M. GILLETTE.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: I have not heard yet from Mr. McEwen. He is the labor commissioner, and I was in hopes that we would have a letter from him as well as this letter from Mr. Gillette.

The next question is the proposition of compensation; that is, whether you will have a limited sum or a pension plan, or what you will have.

WILLIAM H. MOULTON (Michigan): In the iron and copper mining region of Michigan for a great many years we have had a plan of payments to which the men and the employers have contributed equally. These payments have been made monthly to the men during disability, and in any event they should not be made at any longer intervals than once a month. These sums have continued for a year, and in case of death, a death benefit has been paid from this fund.

The mining companies are very much interested in this compensation law. This is evidenced by the voluntary action of the harvester company and the United States Steel and some of our other independent companies. The Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company, which I represent, have been contributing in this way for a great many years at all of our mines. We employ now perhaps 3000 or 4000 men, and another thing which is of advantage to them is this: We found it was a common custom when a man was killed in a mine for the men to stop work until the day of the funeral, no matter whether our boats were lying idle waiting for cargoes or not. I think you will all agree with me that we generally get what we pay for, and if we expect a man to do something for us we expect to pay for it. Our proposition to the men was this: They stopped work out of sympathy for this man who had been killed. We suggested to them that it would be more an act of sympathy to follow out this plan, that they should continue at work until the day of the funeral and we would pay them for all the time they worked, and then if they took a half-day off for the funeral we would pay them for that half-day just as though they worked, but that this amount of money should be a contribution from them to the family of the man who had been killed. The last amount that I remember that was paid in that way was $298 which that family received in addition to the benefit fund. Our company also is paying to the widow and orphans the sum of $12 a month to the widow and $1 a month for each additional child under the age of 16 years, for a period of five years or until the widow remarries. This is done with the idea that by the time the children have reached the age of 21 they can support the family.

We also endeavor to reduce accidents by frequent inspections of our mines and monthly reports, and periodical inspections also, and in case of any serious accident we have a committee who visits the scene of that accident, carefully inquires into the cause of it and makes a recommendation for the benefit of that mine and of all our other mines.

I am sure I am voicing the opinion of all the Lake Superior region of the iron and copper mines when I say that we are heartily in favor of some plan of compensation for the workmen of our country which shall be a liberal one.

MR. DAWSON (New York): Nearly every bill which has so far been framed has proceeded on the basis that it is necessary to limit the length of time for which the benefit is to be paid. That is to say, even though a workman has become totally and permanently disabled, the benefit is to be paid for three or four years, and then is to stop. This overcaution grows out of two things; one of them is that we are almost entirely thinking of this as a compensation scheme which the individual employer is going to pay for. It may be that our laws will be passed in that form; but, even if they are passed in that form, experience in every country in the world has demonstrated that almost all employers will be insured, and the loss will be paid by companies which can just as well continue payment so long as it is necessary for it to be continued, and charge premiums and set up reserves accordingly.

It is my personal opinion that we ought not to frame our laws on the basis that employers as a class are actually going to pay these compensations directly. We should frame them with a view to their being insured, and that, therefore, this will not be an intolerable burden upon any individual employer unless he makes a fool of himself by neglecting to insure.