Chapter IX: Part III (4)

6. We have ever since had great reason to praise God, for his continued blessing on this undertaking. Many lives have been saved: many sicknesses healed, much pain and want prevented or removed. Many heavy hearts have been made glad; many mourners comforted. And the _visitors_ have found from him whom they serve, a present reward for all their labour.

XII. 1. But I was still in pain for many of the poor that were sick: there was so great expence, and so little profit. And first, I resolved to try, whether they might not receive more benefit in the _hospitals_. Upon the trial, we found, there was indeed less expence: but no more good done than before. I then asked the advice of several physicians for them: but still it profited not. I saw the poor people pining away, and several families ruined, and that without remedy.

2. At length I thought of a kind of desperate expedient. “I will prepare, and give them physick myself.” For _six_ or _seven_ and _twenty_ years, I had made anatomy and physic the diversion of my leisure hours: though I never properly studied them, unless for a few months, when I was going to _America_, where I imagined I might be of some service to those who had no regular physician among them. I applied to it again. I took in to my assistance an apothecary, and an experienced surgeon: resolving at the same time, not to go out of my depth; but to leave all difficult and complicated cases, to such physicians as the patients should chuse.

3. I gave notice of this to the society: telling them, that all who were ill of _chronical_ distempers (for I did not care to venture upon _acute_) might, if they pleased, come to me at such a time: and I would give them the best advice I could, and the best medicines I had.

4. Many came: (and so every _Friday_ since:) among the rest was one _William Kirkman_, a weaver, near _Old-Nichol Street_. I asked him, “What complaint have you?” “O sir, said he, a cough, a very sore cough. I can get no rest day nor night.” I asked “How long have you had it.” He replied, “About _threescore_ years: it began when I was _eleven_ years old.” I was nothing glad, that this man should come first; fearing our not curing him, might discourage others. However I looked up to God and said, “Take this _three_ or _four_ times a day. If it does you no good, it will do you no harm.” He took it _two_ or _three_ days. His cough was cured: and has not returned to this day.

5. Now let candid men judge, does humility require me to deny a notorious fact? If not, Which is _vanity_? To say, _I_ by my own skill, restored this man to health? Or to say, God did it by his own almighty power? By what figure of speech this is called, _boasting_, I know not. But I will put no name to such a fact as this. I leave that to the Rev. Dr. _Middleton_.

6. In five months, medicines were occasionally given, to above five hundred persons. Several of these I never saw before; for I did not regard, whether they were of the society, or not. In that time seventy-one of these, regularly taking their medicines, and following the regimen prescribed (which three in four would not do) were entirely cured, of distempers long thought to be incurable. The whole expence of medicines during this time, was (nearly) _forty pounds_. We continued this ever since, and by the blessing of God, with more and more success.

XIII. 1. But I had for some years observed many who, although not sick, were not able to provide for themselves, and had none who took care to provide for them: these were chiefly feeble, aged widows. I consulted with the _stewards_, bow they might be relieved? They all agreed, if we could keep them in one house, it would not only be far less expensive to us, but also far more comfortable for them. Indeed we had no money to begin. But we believed He would provide, _who defendeth the cause of the widow_. So we took a lease of two little houses near: we fitted them up, so as to be warm and clean. We took in as many widows as we had room for, and provided them with things needful for the body: toward the expence of which I set aside, first, the weekly contributions of the _bands_, and then all that was collected at the Lord’s supper. It is true, this does not suffice: so that we are still considerably in debt, on this account also. But we are persuaded, it will not always be so; seeing _the earth is the _Lord_’s and the fulness thereof_.

2. In this (commonly called, _The Poor House_) we have now _nine_ widows, _one_ blind-woman, _two_ poor children, _two_ upper servants, a maid and a man. I might add _four_ or _five_ preachers. For I myself, as well as the other preachers who are in town, diet with the poor, on the same food, and at the same table. And we rejoice herein as a comfortable earnest, of our eating bread together in our father’s kingdom.

3. I have blessed God for this house, ever since it began: but lately much more than ever. I honour these widows; for they _are widows indeed_. So that it is not in vain, that without any design of so doing, we have copied after another of the institutions of the apostolic age. I can now say to all the world, “Come, and see, how these Christians love one another!”¹

¹ This has been since dropt for want of support.

XIV. 1. Another thing, which had given me frequent concern, was the case of abundance of children. Some their parents could not afford to put to school. So they remained like _a wild ass’s colt_. Others were sent to school, and learned, at least, to read and write: but they learned all kind of vice at the same time: so that it had been better for them to have been without their knowledge, than to have bought it at so dear a price.

2. At length I determined, to have them taught in my own house; that they might have an opportunity of learning to read, write, and cast accompts (if no more) without being under almost a necessity of learning heathenism, at the same time. And after several unsuccessful trials, I found two such school-masters as I wanted: men of honesty, and of sufficient knowledge; who had talents for, and their hearts in the work.

3. They have now under their care, near sixty children: the parents of some pay for their schooling, but the greater part, being very poor, do not; so that the expence is chiefly defrayed by voluntary contributions. We have of late cloathed them too, as many as wanted. The rules of the school are these that follow:

First, No child is admitted under six years of age:

Secondly, All the children are to be present at the morning
sermon:

Thirdly, They are at school from six to twelve, and from one to
five:¹

¹ Now they begin later.

Fourthly, They have no play-days:

Fifthly, No child is to speak in school, but to the masters:

Sixthly, The child who misses two days in one week, without
leave, is excluded the school.

4. We ♦appointed two stewards for the school also. The business of these is,

♦ “appoint” replaced with “appointed” per Errata

To receive the school subscriptions, and expend what is needful;

To talk with each of the masters weekly;

To pray with, and exhort the children twice a week:

To enquire diligently, whether they grow in grace and in learning,
and whether the rules are punctually observed:

Every _Tuesday_ morning, in conjunction with the masters, to
exclude those children that do not observe the ♦rules:

♦ deleted word “said” per Errata

Every _Wednesday_ morning, to meet with, and exhort their parents,
to train them up at home in the ways of God.

5. An happy change was soon observed in the children, both with regard to their tempers and behaviour. They learnt reading, writing, and arithmetic swiftly; and at the same time they were diligently instructed, in the sound principles of religion, and earnestly exhorted to fear God, and work out their own salvation.

XV. 1. A year or two ago, I observed among many a distress of another kind. They frequently wanted, perhaps in order to carry on their business, a present supply of money. They scrupled to make use of a _pawn-broker_: but where to borrow it they knew not. I resolved to try if we could not find a remedy for this also. I went (in a few days) from one end of the town to the other; and exhorted those who had this world’s goods, to assist their needy brethren. _Fifty_ pounds were contributed. This was immediately lodged in the hands of _two_ stewards: who attended every _Tuesday_ morning, in order to lend to those who wanted, any small sum, not exceeding _twenty shillings_, to be repaid within _three_ months.

2. It is almost incredible, but it manifestly appears from their accounts, that with this inconsiderable sum _two hundred_ and _fifty_ have been assisted, within the space of _one year_. Will not God put it into the heart of some lover of mankind, to increase this little stock? If this is not _lending unto the_ Lord, what is? O confer not with flesh and blood, but immediately,

“Join hands with God, to make a poor man live.”¹

¹ We now lend any sum, not exceeding five pounds.

3. I think, Sir, now you know all, that I know of this people. You see the nature, occasion and design, of whatever is practised among them. And I trust, you may be pretty well able to answer any questions, which may be asked concerning them: particularly by those, who enquire concerning _my revenue_, and what I do with it all?

4. Some have supposed, this was no greater than that of the bishop of _London_. But others computed, that I received _eight hundred_ a year from _Yorkshire_ only. Now if so, it cannot be so little as _ten thousand pounds_ a year, which I receive out of all _England_!

5. Accordingly a gentleman in _Cornwall_ (the rector of _R――――_) extends the calculation pretty considerably. “Let me see, said he: _two millions_ of _Methodists_: and each of these paying _two-pence_ a week.” If so I must have _eight hundred_ and _sixty thousand pounds_ (with some odd _shillings_ and _pence_) a year.

6. ♦A tolerable competence! But be it more or less, it is nothing at all to _me_. All that is contributed or collected in every place, is both received and expended by others: nor have I so much as the _Beholding thereof with my eyes_. And so it will be, till I turn _Turk_ or _Pagan_. For I look upon all this revenue, be it what it may, as sacred to God and the poor: (out of which, if I want any thing, I am relieved, even as another poor man.) So were originally all ecclesiastical revenues, (as every man of learning knows.) And the bishops and priests _used_ them only, _as such_. If any use them otherwise now, God help them!

♦ Added “A” per Errata

7. I doubt not, but if I err in this, or any other point, you will pray God to shew me his truth. To _have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man_ is the desire of,

_Reverend and dear Sir_,

_Your affectionate brother and servant_,

JOHN WESLEY.

THE _Nature_, _Design_, and _General Rules_,
OF THE UNITED SOCIETIES,

In LONDON, BRISTOL, KINGSWOOD, ♦NEWCASTLE upon TYNE, &c.

♦ deleted “and” per Errata

1. IN the latter end of the year 1739, eight or ten persons came to me in _London_, who appeared to be deeply convinced of sin, and earnestly groaning for redemption. They desired (as did two or three more the next day) that I would spend some time with them in prayer, and advise them how to flee from the wrath to come; which they saw continually hanging over their heads. That we might have more time for this great work, I appointed a day when they might all come together, which from thenceforward they did every week, namely on _Thursday_, in the evening. To these, and as many more as desired to join with them (for their number increased daily) I gave those advices from time to time which I judged most needful for them; and we always concluded our meeting with prayer suited to their several necessities.

2. This was the rise of the UNITED SOCIETY, first in _London_, and then in other places. Such a society is no other than “_A company of men_ having the form and seeking the power _of godliness, united in order to pray together, to receive the word of exhortation, and to watch over one another in love, that they may help each other to work out their salvation_.”

3. That it may the more easily be discerned, whether they are indeed working out their own salvation, each society is divided into smaller companies, called classes, according to their respective places of abode. There are about twelve persons in every class; one of whom is stiled _The Leader_. It is his business,

1. To see each person in his class, once a week at least; in order

To enquire how their souls prosper.

To advise, reprove, comfort or exhort, as occasion ♦may require;

♦ insert “may” per Errata

To receive what they are willing to give, toward the relief of the poor.

2. To meet the minister and the stewards of the society once a week; in order

To inform the minister of any that are sick, or of any that walk disorderly, and will not be reproved:

To pay to the stewards what they have received of their several classes in the week preceding; And

To shew their account of what each person has contributed.

4. There is one only condition previously required in those who desire admission into these societies, _A desire to flee from the wrath to come, to be saved from their sins_: But, wherever this is really fixed in the soul, it will be shewn by its fruits. It is therefore expected of all who continue therein, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation,

First, By doing no harm, by avoiding evil in every kind; especially, that which is most generally practised. Such is

The taking the name of God in vain;

The profaning the day of the Lord, either by doing ordinary work thereon, or by buying or selling:

Drunkenness, _buying or selling spirituous liquors_; or _drinking them_ (unless in cases of extreme necessity:)

_Fighting_, quarreling, brawling; brother _going to law_ with brother; returning evil for evil, or railing for railing: the _using many words_ in buying or selling:

The _buying or selling uncustomed goods_:

The _giving or taking things on usury_: i. e. unlawful interest:

_Uncharitable_ or _unprofitable_ conversation; particularly speaking evil of magistrates or of ministers:

Doing to others as we would not they should do unto us:

Doing what we know is not for the glory of God: As

The _putting on gold and costly apparel_:

The _taking such diversions_ as cannot be used in the name of the Lord Jesus:

The _singing_ those _songs_, or _reading_ those _books_, which do not tend to the knowledge or love of God:

Softness, and needless self-indulgence:

Laying up treasures upon earth:

Borrowing without a probability of paying; or taking up goods without a probability of paying for them.

5. It is expected of all who continue in these societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation,

Secondly, By doing good, by being in every kind, merciful after their power; as they have opportunity, doing good of every possible sort, and as far as is possible to all men;

To their bodies, of the ability which God giveth, by giving food to the hungry, by cloathing the naked, by visiting or helping them that are sick, or in prison.

To their souls, by instructing, _reproving_ or exhorting all they have any intercourse with: trampling under foot that enthusiastick doctrine of devils, that “we are not to do good, unless _our heart be free to it_.”

By doing good especially to them that are of the houshold of faith, or groaning so to be; employing them preferably to others, buying one of another; helping each other in business; and so much the more, because the world will love its own, and them only.

By all possible _diligence and frugality_, that the gospel be not blamed.

By running with patience the race that is set before them, _denying themselves, and taking up their cross daily_; submitting to bear the reproach of Christ, to be as the filth and off-scouring of the world; and looking that men should _say all manner of evil of them falsely for the Lord’s sake_.

6. It is expected of all who desire to continue in these societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation,

Thirdly, By attending upon all the ordinances of God: Such are

The publick worship of God;

The ministry of the word, either read or expounded;

The supper of the Lord;

Family and private prayer;

Searching the scriptures; and

Fasting or abstinence.

7. These are the General Rules of our Societies; all which we are taught of God to observe, even in his written word, the only rule, and the sufficient rule both of our faith and practice. And all these we know his Spirit writes on every truly awakened heart. If there be any among us who observe them not, who habitually break any of them, let it be made known unto them who watch over that soul, as they that must give an account. We will admonish him of the error of his ways: We will bear with him for a season. But then if he repent not, he hath no more place among us. We have delivered our own soul.

JOHN WESLEY,
CHARLES WESLEY,

_May 1, 1743_.

MINUTES
OF SOME LATE
CONVERSATIONS,
Between the Rev. Mr. WESLEYS, and Others.

Conversation the First.

MONDAY, 25th of _June_, 1744.

THE following persons being met at the Foundery, _John Wesley_, _Charles Wesley_, _John Hodges_, rector of _Wenvo_, _Henry Piers_, vicar of _Bexley_, _Samuel Taylor_, vicar of _Quinton_, and _John Meriton_, after some time spent in prayer, the design of our meeting was proposed, namely to consider,

1. What to teach,

2. How to teach, and

3. What to do? _i. e._ How to regulate our doctrine, discipline and practice.

We began with considering the doctrine of justification: the questions relating to, with the substance of the answers given thereto, were as follows.

_Q._ 1. What is to be justified?

_A._ To be pardoned, and received into God’s favour, into such a state, that if we continue therein, we shall be finally saved.

_Q._ 2. Is faith the condition of justification?

_A._ Yes; for every one who believeth not is condemned; and every one who believes is justified.

_Q._ 3. But must not repentance and works meet for repentance go before this faith?

_A._ Without doubt: if by repentance you mean conviction of sin; and by works meet for repentance, obeying God as far as we can, forgiving our brother, leaving off from evil, doing good, and using his ordinances according to the power we have received.

_Q._ 4. What is faith?

_A._ Faith in general is, a divine, supernatural _elenchos_ of things not seen; _i. e._ of past, future, or spiritual things: it is a spiritual sight of God and the things of God.

First, a sinner is convinced by the Holy Ghost, “Christ loved me and gave himself for me.”――This is that faith by which he is justified or pardoned, the moment he receives it. Immediately the same Spirit bears witness, “Thou art pardoned: thou hast redemption in his blood.”――And this is saving faith, whereby the love of God is shed abroad in his heart.

_Q._ 5. Have all Christians this faith? May not a man be justified and not know it?

_A._ That all true Christians have such a faith as implies an assurance of God’s love, appears from _Romans_ viii. 15. _Ephesians_ iv. 32. _2 Corinthians_ xiii. 5. _Hebrews_ viii. 10. _1 John_ iv. 10. and v. 19. And that no man can be justified and not know it, appears farther from the nature of the thing. For faith after repentance is ease after pain, rest after toil, light after darkness. It appears also from the immediate, as well as distant fruits thereof.

_Q._ 6. But may not a man go to heaven without it?

_A._ It does not appear from holy writ that a man who hears the gospel, can: (_Mark_ xvi. 16.) whatever a Heathen may do. _Romans_ ii. 14.

_Q._ 7. What are the immediate fruits of justifying faith?

_A._ Peace, joy, love, power over all outward sin, and power to keep down inward sin.

_Q._ 8. Does any one believe, who has not the witness in himself, or any longer than he sees, loves, obeys God?

_A._ We apprehend not; _seeing God_ being the very essence of faith; love and obedience the inseparable properties of it.

_Q._ 9. What sins are consistent with justifying faith?

_A._ No _wilful sin_. If a believer _wilfully sins_, he casts away his faith. Neither is it possible he should have _justifying faith_ again, without previously _repenting_.

_Q._ 10. _Must_ every believer, come into a state of doubt, or fear, or darkness? Will he do so, unless by ignorance, or unfaithfulness? Does God otherwise withdraw himself?

_A._ It is certain, a believer, _need_ never again come into condemnation. It seems, he need not come into a state of doubt, or fear, or darkness: and that (ordinary at least) he _will_ not, unless by ignorance, or unfaithfulness. Yet it is true, that the first joy does seldom last long: that it is commonly followed by doubts and fears; and that God frequently permits great heaviness, before any large manifestation of himself.

_Q._ 11. Are works necessary to the continuance of faith?

_A._ Without doubt; for a man may forfeit the free gift of God, either by sins of omission, or commission.

_Q._ 12. Can faith be lost, but for want of works?

_A._ It cannot but through disobedience.

_Q._ 13. How is faith _made perfect by works_?

_A._ The more we exert our faith, the more it is increased. _To him that hath, shall be given._

_Q._ 14. St. _Paul_ says, _Abraham_ was _not justified by works_. St. _James_, He was _justified by works_. Do they not contradict each other?

_A._ No: 1. Because they do not speak of the same justification. St. _Paul_ speaks of that justification, which was when _Abraham_ was 75 years old, above 20 years before _Isaac_ was born: St. _James_ of that justification, which was when he offered up _Isaac_ on the altar.

2dly. Because they do not speak of the same works: St. _Paul_ speaking of works that precede faith: St. _James_, of works that spring from it.

_Q._ 15. In what sense is _Adam_’s sin imputed to all mankind?

_A._ In _Adam_ all die, _i. e._ 1. Our bodies then became mortal. 2. Our souls died, _i. e._ were disunited from God. And hence, 3. We are all born with a sinful, devilish nature. By reason whereof, 4. We are children of wrath, liable to death eternal. _Romans_ v. 18. _Ephesians_ ii. 3.

_Q._ 16. In what sense is the righteousness of Christ imputed to all mankind, or to believers?

_A._ We do not find it expresly affirmed in scripture, that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to any: although we do find, that _faith is imputed_ to us _for righteousness_.

That text, “_As by one man’s disobedience all men were made sinners, so by the obedience of one, all were made righteous_,” we conceive means, by the merits of Christ, all men are cleared from the guilt of _Adam_’s actual sin.

We conceive farther, that through the obedience and death of Christ, 1. The bodies of all men become immortal after the resurrection. 2. Their souls receive a capacity of spiritual life: And 3. An actual spark or seed thereof. 4. All believers become children of grace, reconciled to God, and 5. Made partakers of the divine nature.

_Q._ 17. Have we not then unawares leaned too much towards _Calvinism_?

_A._ We are afraid we have.

_Q._ 18. Have we not also leaned towards _Antinomianism_?

_A._ We are afraid we have.

_Q._ 19. What is _Antinomianism_?

_A._ The doctrine which makes void the law through faith.

_Q._ 20. What are the main pillars hereof?

_A._ 1. That Christ abolished the moral law:

2. That therefore Christians are not obliged to observe it:

3. That one branch of Christian liberty, is liberty from obeying the commandments of God:

4. That it is bondage, to do a thing, because it is commanded, or forbear it because it is forbidden:

5. That a believer is not _obliged_ to use the ordinances of God or to do good works:

6. That a preacher ought not to exhort to good works: not unbelievers, because it is hurtful; not believers, because it is needless.

_Q._ 21. What was the occasion of St. _Paul_’s writing his epistle to the _Galatians_?

_A._ The coming of certain men amongst the _Galatians_, who taught, _Except ye be circumcised and keep the law of_ Moses _ye cannot be saved_.

_Q._ 22. What is his main design therein?

_A._ To prove, 1. That no man can be justified or saved by the works of the law, either moral or ritual, 2. That every believer is justified by faith in Christ without the works of the law.

_Q._ 23. What does he mean by “_the works of the law_?” _Galatians_ ii. 16, &c.

_A._ All works which do not spring from faith in Christ.

_Q._ 24. What by being _under the law_? _Galatians_ iii. 23.

_A._ Under the _Mosaic_ dispensation.

_Q._ 25. What law has Christ abolished?

_A._ The ritual law of _Moses_.

_Q._ 26. What is meant by _liberty_? _Galatians_ v. 1.

_A._ Liberty, 1. From that law; 2. From sin.

_On_ TUESDAY _Morning, June 26. was considered_.

THE doctrine of sanctification: with regard to which the questions asked, and the substance of the answers given were as follows.

_Q._ 1. What is it to be sanctified?

_A._ To be renewed in the image of God in righteousness and true holiness.

_Q._ 2. Is faith the condition, or the instrument of sanctification?

_A._ It is both the condition, and instrument of it. When we begin to believe, then sanctification begins. And as faith increases, holiness increases, till we are created anew.

_Q._ 3. What is implied in being _a perfect Christian_?

_A._ The loving the Lord our God with all our heart, and with all our mind, and soul, and strength, _Deuteronomy_ vi. 5, 30, 6. _Ezekiel_ xxxvi. 25‒29.

_Q._ 4. Does this imply, that all inward sin is taken away?

_A._ Without doubt: or how could we be said to be saved _from all our uncleannesses_? ♦v. 29.

♦ Transcriber could not identify which scripture is being
referenced, no book name given.

_Q._ 5. Can we know one who is thus saved? What is a reasonable ♦proof of it?

♦ “poof” replaced with “proof”

_A._ We cannot, without the miraculous discernment of Spirit, be infallibly certain of those who are thus saved. But we apprehend, these would be the best proofs which the nature of the thing ♦admits. 1. If we had sufficient evidence of their unblameable behaviour, preceding 2. If they gave a distinct account of the time and manner wherein they were saved from sin, and of the circumstances thereof, with such sound speech as could not be reproved. And

♦ “admit” replaced with “admits” per Errata

3. If upon a strict enquiry afterwards from time to time, it appeared that all their tempers and words and actions were holy and unreprovable.

_Q._ 6. How should we treat those who think they have attained this?

_A._ Exhort them to forget the things that are behind, and to watch and pray always, that God may search the ground of their hearts.

WEDNESDAY, _June 27_.

WE began to consider points of discipline: with regard to which the questions asked, and the substance of the answers given were as follows.

_Q._ 1. What is the church of _England_?

_A._ According to the 20th article, the visible church of _England_ is, the congregation of English _believers_, in which the _pure word_ of God is preached, and the sacraments _duly_ administered.

(But the word _church_ is sometimes taken in a looser sense, for “a congregation professing to believe.” So it is taken in the 26th article, and in the 1st, 2d, and 3d chapters of the _Revelation_.)

_Q._ 2. Who is a member of the church of _England_?

_A._ A believer, hearing the _pure word_ of God preached, and partaking of the sacraments duly administered, in that church.

_Q._ 3. What is it to be zealous for the church?

_A._ To be earnestly desirous of its welfare and increase: of its welfare, by the confirmation of its present members, in faith, hearing, and communicating: and of its increase, by the addition of new members.

_Q._ 4. How are we to defend the doctrine of the church?

_A._ Both by our preaching and living.

_Q._ 5. How should we behave at a false, or railing sermon?

_A._ If it only contain personal reflections, we may quietly suffer it: if it blaspheme the work and Spirit of God, it may be better to go out of the church. In either case, if opportunity serve, it would be well to speak or write to the minister.

_Q._ 6. How far is it our duty to obey the bishops?

_A._ In all things indifferent. And on this ground of obeying them, we should observe the canons, so far as we can with a safe conscience.

_Q._ 7. Do we separate from the church?

_A._ We conceive not: we hold communion therewith, for conscience sake, by constantly attending both the word preached, and the sacraments administered therein.

_Q._ 8. What then do they mean who say, “you separate from the church?”

_A._ We cannot certainly tell. Perhaps they have no determinate meaning: unless, by the church they mean _themselves_, _i. e._ that part of the clergy who accuse us of preaching false doctrine. And it is sure we do herein separate from them, by maintaining that which they deny.

_Q._ 9. But do you not weaken the church?

_A._ Do not they who ask this, by _the church_ mean _themselves_? We do not purposely weaken any man’s hands. But accidentally we may, thus far: they who come to know the truth by us, will esteem such as deny it, less than they did before.

But the church, in the proper sense, the congregation of _English_ believers, we do not weaken at all.

_Q._ 10. Do you not entail a schism on the church? _i. e._ Is it not probable, that your hearers after your death, will be scattered into all sects and parties? Or that they will form themselves into a distinct sect?

_A._ 1. We are persuaded the body of our hearers will even after our death remain in the church, unless they be thrust out.

2. We believe notwithstanding, either that they will be thrust out, or that they will leaven the whole church.

3. We do, and will do, all we can, to prevent those consequences, which are supposed likely to happen after our death.

4. But we cannot with a good conscience neglect the present opportunity of saving souls while we live, for fear of consequences which may possibly or probably happen, after we are dead.

Conversation the Second.

_Bristol_, TUESDAY, _August 1, 1745_.

THE following persons being met together at the New-Room, in _Bristol_; _John Wesley_, _Charles Wesley_, _John Hodges_, _Thomas Richards_, _Samuel Larwood_, _Thomas Meyrick_, _Richard Moss_, _John Slocombe_, _Herbert Jenkins_, and _Marmaduke Gwynne_:

It was proposed to review the minutes of the last conference with regard to justification. And it was asked.

_Q._ 1. How comes what is written on this subject to be so intricate and obscure? Is this obscurity from the nature of the thing itself? Or, from the fault or weakness of those who have generally treated of it?

_A._ We apprehend this obscurity does not arise from the nature of the subject: but, perhaps, partly from hence, that the devil peculiarly labours to perplex a subject of the greatest importance: and partly from the extreme warmth of most writers who have treated of it.

_Q._ 2. We affirm faith, in Christ is the sole condition of justification. But does not repentance go before that faith? Yea, and (supposing there be opportunity for them) fruits or works meet for repentance?

_A._ Without doubt they do.

_Q._ 3. How then can we deny them to be _conditions_ of justification? Is not this a mere strife of words? But is it worth while to continue a dispute on the term _condition_?

_A._ It seems not, though it has been grievously abused. But so the abuse cease, let the use remain.

_Q._ 4. Shall we read over together Mr. _Baxter_’s aphorisms concerning justification?

_A._ By all means: which were accordingly read. And it was desired, that each person present would in the afternoon consult the scriptures cited therein, and bring what objections might occur the next morning.

FRIDAY, _August 2_. _The_ question _was proposed_.

_Q._ 1. IS a sense of God’s pardoning love absolutely necessary to our being in his favour? Or may there be some exempt cases?

_A._ We dare not say, there are not.

_Q._ 2. Is it necessary to inward and outward holiness?

_A._ We incline to think it is.

_Q._ 3. Is it indispensably necessary to final salvation? Suppose in a _Papist_? Or, a _Quaker_? Or, in general, among those who never heard it preached?

_A._ Love hopeth all things. We know not how far any of these may fall under the case of invincible ignorance.

_Q._ 4. But what can we say of one of our own society, who dies without it, as _J. W._ at _London_?

_A._ It may be an exempt case (if the fact was really so.) But we determine nothing. We leave his soul in the hands of him that made it.

_Q._ 5. Does a man believe any longer than he sees a reconciled God?

_A._ We conceive not. But we allow there may be infinite degrees in seeing God: even as many as there are between him who sees the sun, when it shines on his eye-lids closed, and him who stands with his eyes wide open, in the full blaze of his beams.

_Q._ 6. Does a man believe any longer than he loves God?

_A._ In no wise. For neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails, without faith working by love.

_Q._ 7. Have we duly considered the case of _Cornelius_? Was not he in the favour of God, _when his prayers and alms came up for a memorial before God_? _i. e._ Before he believed in Christ?

_A._ It does seem that he was, in some degree. But we speak not of those who have not heard the gospel.

_Q._ 8. But were those works of his, _splendid sins_?

_A._ No; nor were they _done without the grace of_ Christ.

* _Q._ 9. How then can we maintain, that all works done before we have a sense of the pardoning love of God, are sin? And, as such, an abomination to him?

_A._ The works of him who has heard the gospel, and does not believe, are not done as God hath _willed and commanded them to be done_. And yet we know not how to say, that they are an abomination to the Lord in him who feareth God, and from that principle, does the best he can.

_Q._ 10. Seeing there is so much difficulty in this subject, can we deal too tenderly with them that oppose us?

_A._ We cannot; unless we were to give up any part of the truth of God.

_Q._ 11. Is a believer _constrained_ to obey God?

_A._ At first he often is. The love of Christ constraineth him. After this, he _may_ obey, or he may not; no constraint being laid upon him.

_Q._ 12. * Can faith be lost, but through disobedience?

_A._ It cannot. A believer first inwardly disobeys, inclines to sin with his heart: then his intercourse with God is cut off, _i. e._ His faith is lost. And after this, he may fall into outward sin, being now weak, and like another man.

_Q._ 13. How can such an one recover faith?

_A._ By repenting and doing the first works, _Revelation_ ii. 5.

_Q._ 14. Whence is it that so great a majority of those who believe fall more or less into doubt or fear?

_A._ Chiefly from their own ignorance or unfaithfulness: often from their not watching unto prayer: perhaps sometimes from some defect, or want of the power of God in the preaching they hear.

_Q._ 15. Is there not a defect in us? Do we preach as we did at first? Have we not changed our doctrines?

_A._ 1. At first we preached almost wholly to unbelievers. To those therefore we spake almost continually, of remission of sins through the death of Christ, and the nature of faith in his blood. And so we do still, among those who need to be taught the first elements of the gospel of Christ:

2. But those in whom the foundation is already laid, we exhort to go on to perfection: which we did not see so clearly at first; although we occasionally spoke of it from the beginning.

3. Yet we now preach, and that continually, faith in Christ, as the prophet, priest and king, at least, as clearly, as strongly, and as fully as we did six years ago.

_Q._ 16. Do we not discourage visions and dreams too much? As if we condemned them _toto genere_.

_A._ We do not intend to do this. We neither discourage nor encourage them. We learn from _Acts_ ii. 19, &c. to expect something of this kind _in the last days_. And we cannot deny, that saving faith is often given in dreams or visions of the night: which faith we account neither better nor worse, than if it came by any other means.

_Q._ 17. Do not some of our assistants preach too much of the wrath, and too little of the love of God?

_A._ We fear they have leaned to that extreme; and hence some of their hearers may have lost the joy of faith.

_Q._ 18. Need we ever preach the terrors of the Lord to those who know they are accepted of him?

_A._ No; it is folly so to do: for love is to them the strongest of all motives.

_Q._ 19. Do we ordinarily represent a justified state so great and happy as it is?

_A._ Perhaps not. A believer walking in the light, is inexpressibly great and happy.

_Q._ 20. Should we not have a care of depreciating justification, in order to exalt the state of full sanctification?

_A._ Undoubtedly we should beware of this: for one may insensibly slide into it.

_Q._ 21. How shall we effectually avoid it?

_A._ When we are going to speak of entire sanctification, let us first describe the blessings of a justified state, as strongly as possible.

_Q._ 22. Does not the truth of the gospel lie very near both to _Calvinism_ and _Antinomianism_?

_A._ Indeed it does: as it were, within a hair’s breadth. So that it is altogether foolish and sinful, because we do not quite agree, either with one or the other, to run from them as far as ever we can.

* _Q._ 23. Wherein may we come to the very edge of _Calvinism_?

_A._ In ascribing all good to the free grace of God: 2. In denying all natural free will, and all power antecedent to grace; and 3. In excluding all merit from man; even for what he has or does by the grace of God.

_Q._ 24. Wherein may we come to the edge of _Antinomianism_?

_A._ 1. In exalting the merits and love of Christ. 2. In rejoicing evermore.

_Q._ 25. Does faith supersede (set aside the necessity of) holiness or good works?

_A._ In no wise. So far from it, that it implies both, as a cause does its effects.

_About ten, we began to speak of sanctification:
with regard to which, it was inquired_;

_Q._ 1. WHEN does inward sanctification begin?

_A._ In the moment we are justified. The seed of every virtue is then sown in the soul. From that time the believer gradually dies to sin, and grows in grace. Yet sin remains in him; yea, the seed of all sin, till he is sanctified throughout in spirit, soul and body.

_Q._ 2. What will become of a Heathen? A _Papist_, a church of _England_ man? If he dies without being thus sanctified?

_A._ He cannot see the Lord. But none who seeks it sincerely, shall or can die without it: though possibly he may not attain it, till the very article of death?

_Q._ 3. Is it ordinarily given till a little before death?

_A._ It is not, to those that expect it no sooner, nor consequently ask for it, at least, not in faith.

_Q._ 4. But ought we to expect it sooner?

_A._ Why not? For although we grant, 1. That the generality of believers, whom we have hitherto known, were not so sanctified till near death. 2. That few of those to whom St. _Paul_ wrote his epistles were so at the time he wrote. 3. Nor he himself at the time of writing his former epistles. Yet this does not prove, that we may not to-day.

_Q._ 5. But would not one who was thus sanctified be incapable of worldly business?

_A._ He would be far more capable of it than ever, as going through all without distraction.

_Q._ 6. Would he be capable of marriage?

_A._ Why should he not?

_Q._ 7. Should we not beware of bearing hard on those who think they have attained?

_A._ We should. And the rather, because if they are faithful to the grace they have received, they are in no danger of perishing at last. No, not even if they remain in _luminous faith_, (as some term it) for many months or years: perhaps till within a little time of their spirits returning to God.

* _Q._ 8. In what manner should we preach entire sanctification?

_A._ Scarce at all to those who are not pressing forward. To those who are, always by way of promise: always drawing, rather than driving.

_Q._ 9. How should we wait for the fulfilling of this promise?

_A._ In universal obedience: in keeping all the commandments, in denying ourselves, and taking up our cross daily. These are the general means which God hath ordained for our receiving his sanctifying grace. The particular are, prayer, searching the scripture, communicating and fasting.

Conversation the Third.

TUESDAY, _May 13, 1746_.

THE following persons being met at the New Room in _Bristol_: _John Wesley_, _Charles Wesley_, _John Hodges_, _Jonathan Reeves_, _Thomas Maxfield_, _Thomas Westell_, and _Thomas Willis_, It was inquired:

_Q._ 1. Can an unbeliever (whatever he be in other respects) challenge any thing of God’s justice?

_A._ Absolutely nothing but hell. And this is a point which we cannot too much insist on.

_Q._ 2. Do we empty men of their own ♦righteousness, as we did at first? Do we sufficiently labour, when they begin to be convinced of sin, to take away all they lean upon? Should we not then endeavour with all our might to overturn their false foundations?

♦ “rightousness” replaced with “righteousness”

_A._ This was at first one of our principal points. And it ought to be so still. For, till all other foundations are overturned, they cannot build upon Christ?

_Q._ 3. Did we not _then_ purposely throw them into convictions? Into strong sorrow and fear? Nay, did we not strive to make them inconsolable? Refusing to be comforted?

_A._ We did. And so we should do still. For the stronger the conviction, the speedier is the deliverance. And none so soon receive the peace of God, as those who steadily refuse all other comfort.

_Q._ 4. Let us consider a particular case. Was you, _Jonathan Reeves_, before you received the peace of God, convinced, that notwithstanding all you did, or could do, you was in a state of damnation?

_J. R._ I was convinced of it, as fully as that I am now alive.

♦_Q._ 5. Are you sure that conviction was from God?

♦ “A.” replaced with “Q.”

_J. R._ I can have no doubt but it was.

_Q._ 6. What do you mean by a state of damnation?

_J. R._ A state, wherein if a man dies he perisheth for ever.

_Q._ 7. How did that conviction end?

_J. R._ I had first a strong hope that God _would_ deliver me: and this brought a degree of peace. But I had not that solid peace of God, till Christ was revealed in me.

_Q._ 8. But is not such a trust in the love of God, tho’ it be as yet without a distinct sight of God, reconciled to me thro’ Christ Jesus, a low degree of justifying faith?

_A._ It is an earnest of it. But this abides, for a short time only: nor is this the proper Christian faith.

_Q._ 9. By what faith were the apostles clean, before Christ died?

_A._ By such a faith as this; by a _Jewish_ faith. For _the Holy Ghost was not then given_.

_Q._ 10. Of whom then do you understand those words――(_Isaiah_ l. 10.) _Who is there among you that feareth the Lord? That obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light?_

_A._ Of a believer under the _Jewish_ dispensation: one in whose heart God hath not yet shined, to give him the light of the glorious love of God, in the face of Jesus Christ.

_Q._ 11. Who is a _Jew_ (inwardly)?

_A._ A _servant_ of God: one who sincerely obeys him out of fear. Whereas a Christian (inwardly) is a _child_ of God; one who sincerely obeys him out of love. But was not you sincere before Christ was revealed in you?

_J. R._ It seemed to me that I was in some measure.

_Q._ 12. What is sincerity?

_A._ Willingness to know and do the whole will of God. The lowest species thereof seems to be _faithfulness in that which is little_.

* _Q._ 13. Has God any regard to man’s sincerity?

_A._ So far, that no man in any state can possibly please God without it: neither indeed in any moment wherein he is not sincere.

_Q._ 14. But can it be conceived that God has any regard to the sincerity of an unbeliever?

_A._ Yes, so much, that if he persevere therein, God will infallibly give him faith.

_Q._ 15. What regard may we conceive him to have, to the sincerity of a believer?

_A._ So much, that in every sincere believer he fulfils all the great and precious promises.

_Q._ 16. Whom do you term a _sincere believer_?

_A._ One that walks in the light, as God is in the light.

_Q._ ♦17. Is sincerity the same with a _single eye_?

♦ “18” replaced with “17”

_A._ Not altogether. The latter refers to our intention: the former to our will or desires.

_Q._ 18. Is it not all in all?

_A._ All will follow persevering sincerity. God gives every thing with it; nothing without it.

* _Q._ 19. Are not then sincerity and faith equivalent terms?

_A._ By no means. It is at least as nearly related to works as it is to faith. For example; who is sincere before he believes? He that then does all he can: he that, according to the power he has received, brings forth _fruits meet for repentance_. Who is sincere after he believes: he that, from a sense of God’s love, is zealous of all good works.

_Q._ 20. Is not sincerity what St. _Paul_ terms a willing mind? ἡ προθυμία? _2 Corinthians_ viii. 12.

_A._ Yes: if that word be taken in a general sense. For it is a constant disposition to use all the grace given.

* _Q._ 21. But do we not then set sincerity on a level with faith?

_A._ No. For we allow a man may be sincere, and not be justified, as he may be penitent, and not be justified: (not as yet) but he cannot have faith, and not be justified. The very moment he believes he is justified.

_Q._ 22. But do we not give up faith, and put sincerity in its place, as the condition of our acceptance with God?

_A._ We believe it is one condition of our acceptance, as repentance likewise is. And we believe it a condition of our continuing in a state of acceptance. Yet we do not put it in the place of faith. It is by faith the merits of Christ are applied to my soul. But if I am not sincere, they are not applied.

_Q._ 23. Is not this that _going about to establish your own righteousness_, whereof St. _Paul_ speaks, _Romans_ x. 4?

_A._ St. _Paul_ there manifestly speaks of unbelievers, who sought to be accepted for the sake of their own righteousness. We do not seek to be accepted for the sake of our sincerity; but through the merits of Christ alone. Indeed, so long as any man believes, he cannot go about (in St. _Paul_’s sense) to _establish his own righteousness_.

* _Q._ 24. But do you consider, that we are under the covenant of grace? And that the covenant of works is now abolished?

_A._ All mankind were under the covenant of grace, from the very hour that the original promise was made. If by the covenant of works you mean, that of unsinning obedience made with _Adam_ before the fall: no man, but _Adam_, was ever under the covenant: for it was abolished before _Cain_ was born. Yet it is not so abolished, but that it will stand, in a measure, even to the end of the world, _i. e._ If we _do this_, we shall live; if not, we shall die eternally: if we do well, we shall live with God in glory: if evil, we shall die the second death. For every man shall be judged in that day, and rewarded _according to his works_.

_Q._ 25. What means then, _To him that believeth his faith is counted for righteousness_?

_A._ That God forgives him that is unrighteous as soon as he believes, accepting his faith instead of perfect righteousness. But then observe, universal righteousness follows, though it did not precede faith.

_Q._ 26. But is faith thus _counted to us for righteousness_, at whatsoever time we believe?

_A._ Yes. In whatsoever moment we believe, all our past sins vanish away. They are as though they had never been, and we stand clear in the sight of God.

TUESDAY, _Ten o’Clock_.

MR. _Taylor_ of _Quinton_, and _T. Glascot_, being added, it was inquired,

_Q._ 1. Are not the assurance of faith, the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and the revelation of Christ in us, terms nearly of the same import?

_A._ He that denies one of them, must deny all; they are so closely connected together.

_Q._ 2. Are they ordinarily, where the pure gospel is preached, essential to our acceptance?

_A._ Undoubtedly they are; and as such, to be insisted on, in the strongest terms.

* _Q._ 3. Is not the whole dispute of salvation by faith or by works, a mere _strife of words_?

_A._ In asserting salvation by faith, we mean this; 1. That pardon, (salvation begun) is received by faith, producing works. 2. That holiness (salvation continued) is faith working by love: 3. That heaven (salvation finished) is the reward of this faith.

If you who assert salvation by works, or by faith and works, mean the same thing (understanding by faith, the revelation of Christ in us, by salvation, pardon, holiness, glory) we will not strive with you at all. If you do not, this is not a _strife of words_: but the very vitals, the essence of Christianity is the thing in question.

_Q._ 4. Wherein does occur doctrine now differ from that we preached when at _Oxford_?

_A._ Chiefly in these two points: 1. We then knew nothing of that righteousness of faith, in justification; nor 2. Of the nature of faith itself, as implying consciousness of pardon.

_Q._ 5. May not some degree of the love of God, go before a distinct sense of justification?

_A._ We believe it may.

_Q._ 6. Can any degree of sanctification or holiness?