Chapter I: N T H E (22)

DAHLERUS: I met Lord Halifax on 20 July. He said particularly that he did not want any members of the British Government or Parliament to participate. However, His Majesty’s Government would await the results of the meeting with the greatest interest. The meeting took place at Soenke Nissen Koog, in Schleswig-Holstein, near the Danish border. The house belongs to my wife. Seven Englishmen, Göring, Bodenschatz, and Dr. Schoettl were present.

DR. STAHMER: On what day was this?

DAHLERUS: It was on 7 August, and the meeting started at 10 o’clock. The meeting started with Göring’s request to the Englishmen to put to him any questions they desired. Then, a long discussion took place on political developments, particularly with reference to relations between Great Britain and Germany. Finally, both sides came to the question of Munich and the events after Munich. The English representatives emphasized that the policy of aggression in Europe would have to cease. Then the question of the Corridor and Danzig was discussed.

The Englishmen made it perfectly clear that if Germany were to try with force to occupy any foreign territory, the British Empire, in accordance with its obligations to Poland, would stand at the side of Poland.

Göring indicated, on his word of honor as a statesman and a soldier, that although he had the control and command of the strongest air force in the world and might be tempted to lead this air force into battle, he would do everything in his power to prevent a war.

The result of the meeting was that all present agreed on the fact that it would be of the greatest value if a meeting could be arranged as soon as possible by representatives of England and Germany. The conference ended late at night, but next morning the English delegates suggested that such a conference should be extended to include four nations, Great Britain, France, Italy, and Germany. I went to Sylt, where Göring was staying, and he was prepared to consent, in the name of Germany, to this modified proposal.

DR. STAHMER: Did English Members of Parliament participate in this meeting?

DAHLERUS: No, English businessmen only.

DR. STAHMER: Was a full report on this visit given to Lord Halifax?

DAHLERUS: The English participants left Germany early on 9 August and immediately on their return submitted a report to the Foreign Office.

DR. STAHMER: Did this meeting that was planned then materialize, or how did the matter further develop?

DAHLERUS: I received a confirmation from Göring personally that Hitler agreed to such a conference. The matter was then discussed in London, and on 19 August, a request came to me to go to Paris, evidently to receive a reply from the British side. Before I left, on 21 August, I was informed that a commercial agreement had been concluded between Russia and Germany. On the following day this was extended to an agreement covering other political questions. On 23 August I was requested by Göring, who telephoned me in the morning at 10:30 to come to Berlin, if possible, at once.

DR. STAHMER: Did he, during this conversation, point out the gravity of the situation?

DAHLERUS: Yes. Göring stated that the situation had in the meantime become very serious.

DR. STAHMER: When did you meet Göring then?

DAHLERUS: I arrived in Berlin on the 24th and saw Göring at 2 o’clock in the afternoon.

DR. STAHMER: What was the subject of your discussion?

DAHLERUS: He told me that the situation had become very serious owing to the fact that no agreement had been reached between Poland and Germany. He asked me whether I could not go to London and explain the situation there.

DR. STAHMER: Were you to point out there in particular that Germany was prepared to come to an understanding with England?

DAHLERUS: Yes. Göring stated that Germany wanted to come to an understanding with England.

DR. STAHMER: Then when did you leave for London?

DAHLERUS: The following morning, on the 25th, a Friday.

DR. STAHMER: Did this trip take place with Hitler’s agreement?

DAHLERUS: That I cannot say.

DR. STAHMER: With whom then did you have a discussion in London on the evening of the 25th?

DAHLERUS: The important meeting took place late in the afternoon at 6:30 with Lord Halifax.

DR. STAHMER: What did Halifax tell you on this occasion?

DAHLERUS: He informed me that on the same day Henderson had spoken with Hitler, and that Henderson was expected in London on Saturday, the 26th. He expressed the hope then that now the official channels were open an agreement might really become possible. He thanked me for my efforts, and assured me that he did not think my services would be required any longer.

DR. STAHMER: Did you on the same evening have a telephone conversation with Göring?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: What was discussed?

DAHLERUS: At 8 o’clock in the evening I tried to reach him on the telephone, but only after I had obtained help from the Foreign Office was I able to establish the connection. Göring revealed to me then that the situation had become extremely serious and asked me to do everything in my power to arrange a conference between representatives of England and Germany.

DR. STAHMER: Did you inform Lord Halifax of this conversation?

DAHLERUS: Yes. Mr. Roberts of the Foreign Office received the exact wording of our conversation, and before midnight Lord Halifax had the report in his hands.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then on the next morning, that is on Saturday, 26 August, have another conversation with Lord Halifax? What was the nature of that conversation?

DAHLERUS: I met Lord Halifax on Saturday, the 26th at 11 o’clock. I told him that I had learned that the German Government was trying to bring about a decision with all haste. And I stressed the importance of such an attempt in order to make it clear to him that in such a serious situation it was necessary to proceed with greatest sense of responsibility and care. I asked him to emphasize to the German Government that the British Government wanted an understanding.

DR. STAHMER: Did anyone state that Göring was the only man on the German side who could prevent war?

DAHLERUS: Well, I personally had the impression that Göring was the member of the German Government who was most probably working for peace. I had this impression from the conversations that I had with him.

DR. STAHMER: What suggestion did you make then to Lord Halifax?

DAHLERUS: I suggested to Lord Halifax that he should write a letter to Göring. I would go at once to Berlin and deliver it to him personally.

DR. STAHMER: Was your suggestion taken?

DAHLERUS: Yes, Lord Halifax conferred with Chamberlain, and afterwards wrote an excellent letter in which he indicated in very clear and distinct words the desire of his Majesty’s Government to bring about a peaceful settlement.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then fly back to Berlin with this letter?

DAHLERUS: Yes. I arrived in Berlin in the evening, and met Göring at about 10 o’clock that evening.

DR. STAHMER: Describe to the Tribunal the purport of this conversation that you had as a consequence of your talk with Halifax.

DAHLERUS: I met Göring in his train which was just on the way to headquarters. I told him how matters looked in London and emphasized that there was no doubt that, if the German Government proceeded against Danzig, it would immediately be at war with England, but that I was convinced that the German Government was prepared to do everything in its power to avert the crisis. After I had said this to him, I handed him the letter. He tore it open, and after having read it, he placed it before me and asked me to translate it exactly, because it was of greatest importance that the contents should be understood correctly. He sent for his adjutant to come immediately, but the train stopped at the next station, and he declared that in his opinion Hitler must be informed immediately of the contents of this letter. I followed him in a car to Berlin, and exactly at 12 o’clock, midnight, we arrived at the Reich Chancellery. Göring went in immediately to talk with Hitler, and I went to my hotel.

DR. STAHMER: That was then on 27 August, in the night, was it not, or early in the morning on 28 August?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then have a further conversation with Hitler?

DAHLERUS: I was visited by two officers at a quarter past twelve, midnight, who requested me to go with them immediately to Hitler. I was received by him immediately upon my arrival. He was alone with Göring.

DR. STAHMER: Will you describe this conversation somewhat more exactly in detail.

DAHLERUS: Hitler began, in his usual way to describe German policy to me at length. That lasted about 20 minutes, and I thought that my visit would not prove useful. When he inveighed against the English and England, I interrupted him and stated that I had worked in Great Britain, as a workman, as an engineer, and as a manager of industrial enterprises, that I knew the English people well, and that I could not agree with his statements. A long discussion resulted. He asked many questions about England and the English people. Thereafter, he began to explain to me how well equipped the German fighting forces were. Then he seemed very excited, walked up and down the room, and in the end got himself into a very agitated condition and told me that, if it came to a war, he would build U-boats, U-boats, and more U-boats. He seemed really to speak as though he were not aware that there was still anybody in the room. After a while he shouted that he would build airplanes, airplanes, and still more airplanes, and that he would win the war. Then he calmed down again and talked again about England and said, “Herr Dahlerus, tell me please, why I have not been able to arrive at an agreement with the British Government. You seem really to know England so well. Perhaps you can solve the riddle for me?” I hesitated at first, but then I told him that, with my intimate knowledge of the English people, I was personally of the opinion that their lack of confidence in him and his Government was the reason.

The conversation continued. He gave me a long report on his discussions on Friday with Henderson, and finally he asked me to go to London at once and explain his viewpoint. I refused, naturally, and told him that I could not go there as an emissary of Germany. If, however, the British Government expressed the wish that I should come, I would, of course, be prepared to do this. The condition was such, however, that I must know definitely what conditions and proposals he had to make. We spent an hour and a half, during which he explained the various points in greater detail than he had been able to do with Henderson.

DR. STAHMER: What proposals were you specifically to make?

DAHLERUS: In condensed form, they were as follows:

(1) Germany wanted an agreement or an alliance with England.

(2) England was to help Germany in the annexation of Danzig and the Corridor.

(3) Germany gave the assurance that it would guarantee Poland’s boundaries.

(4) An agreement should be reached on Germany’s colonies.

(5) Adequate guarantees should be given for the treatment of German minorities.

(6) Germany gave its word to defend the British Empire with the German Wehrmacht wherever it should be attacked.

DR. STAHMER: Mr. Dahlerus, regarding Point 2, was not Poland assured of a free harbor in Danzig? You may want to add something as to what assurance Poland was to receive. That was Point 2?

DAHLERUS: Yes. This was, of course, only an outline. These proposals were naturally far more extensive.

DR. STAHMER: Is it correct that Poland was to receive a free harbor in Danzig, that it was to receive a corridor to Gdynia, according to the proposals?

DAHLERUS: That was what Hitler said.

DR. STAHMER: Yes, thank you. What was the further course of the conversation?

DAHLERUS: I left on a special plane the next morning, after I had got in touch with London. I met Mr. Chamberlain, Lord Halifax, Sir Horace Wilson, and Sir Alexander Cadogan.

DR. STAHMER: This was on 27 August, was it not?

DAHLERUS: On 27 August, yes.

DR. STAHMER: Where?

DAHLERUS: In Downing Street, Number 10.

DR. STAHMER: What transpired in this conference with Lord Halifax and Mr. Chamberlain?

DAHLERUS: We discussed in full detail the proposals I had brought. On certain points, as is seen from the British _Blue Book_, these proposals were not the same as those made to Henderson. I therefore suggested to the British Government that, if they had full confidence in me as an intermediary, they should tell me how far they could accept the proposals and how far not. I would go back to Berlin the same day and discuss the English views with Hitler and Göring. They should keep Henderson in London until Monday, so that the answer could be given after they had been informed how Hitler regarded the English standpoint.

DR. STAHMER: Did you also have a conference that day with Sir Alexander Cadogan?

DAHLERUS: After the meeting with the members of the Government that I have mentioned, I had a long conversation with Cadogan.

DR. STAHMER: Did you receive certain proposals from him?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: What were they?

DAHLERUS: I must say that the English made the greatest effort to deal in a fair and peaceable way with the various points. Naturally, Point 6, the offer to defend the British Empire, was rejected. Similarly, they did not want to have any discussion on the colonies as long as Germany was not demobilized. With regard to the Polish boundaries, they wanted these boundaries to be guaranteed by the five great powers: Russia, Germany, England, France, and Italy.

Concerning the Corridor, they proposed that negotiations with Poland be undertaken immediately.

With reference to the first point, England was willing in principle to come to an agreement with Germany.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then return to Germany with these proposals?

DAHLERUS: Yes; after I had telephoned Berlin. As the English Government had promised to send Henderson back the same day, I obtained confirmation from Berlin that they were agreeable to Henderson’s returning only on Monday. I left that same evening and shortly before midnight was back in Berlin.

DR. STAHMER: Did you have a conversation there with Göring?

DAHLERUS: I met Göring about 11:10 on Sunday evening and told him the results.

DR. STAHMER: Can you describe that conversation somewhat more in detail?

DAHLERUS: He did not consider the reply very favorable. I told him, however, that in view of the events of the last year he could hardly expect the English to be satisfied with the guarantees of Poland’s boundaries by Germany only. With reference to the colonial question, I made it clear to him that any British Government would be overthrown at once that tried to force this point in Parliament as long as Germany’s forces were mobilized.

In reference to the sixth point, I tried to make it clear to him that England, or the British Empire, preferred to look after their own affairs themselves. Finally he said that it would probably be better if he talked with Hitler alone. He went immediately to the Reich Chancellery and I went to my hotel. At about 1 o’clock on Monday morning, the 26th, I received a telephone call and heard that Hitler would accept the English standpoint provided that the reply expected from Henderson on the next day was, in general, what I had said.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then, that same night, go to the British Embassy?

DAHLERUS: Yes. I went straight to the British Embassy and gave Sir Ogilvie-Forbes a report of the results of my conversation with Göring, and he cabled to London at once.

DR. STAHMER: Did you inform Göring of the substance of this conversation that you had with Forbes?

DAHLERUS: Of course. I acted quite openly, and therefore I told Göring what I planned to do. The German Government knew, indeed, that I would have this conversation with Forbes.

DR. STAHMER: When did you see Göring again then?

DAHLERUS: I saw him again on Monday, the 28th, in the morning, at his headquarters.

DR. STAHMER: It must have been Tuesday morning, was it not?

DAHLERUS: No, Monday morning. It was Monday morning, the 28th.

DR. STAHMER: What was said during this conversation with Göring?

DAHLERUS: In general, we discussed the situation. He seemed to be satisfied that Forbes had cabled London.

DR. STAHMER: Did you visit Forbes again then?

DAHLERUS: Yes, I saw Forbes later. But that was of no significance any longer.

DR. STAHMER: And you met Göring again on Tuesday, did you not, on Tuesday morning?

DAHLERUS: Well, the most important development was that on Tuesday morning, or at 1:15, that is, shortly after midnight, on the 29th, I received a telephone call from the Reich Chancellery, made at Göring’s request by Lieutenant Colonel Konrad. He told me that Henderson had submitted his reply in writing, that it was highly satisfactory, and there was every hope that the threat of a war was past.

I met Göring again then and he told me that he was highly pleased that the matter had developed so well.

DR. STAHMER: Did he not make a statement of this kind: “We shall have peace; peace is assured?”

DAHLERUS: Yes. He said something similar to that.

DR. STAHMER: Then sometime on 29 August you were called up again by Göring, were you not? What occasioned this?

DAHLERUS: I was in my hotel, late in the evening, about 10:30. Forbes called me up and said he had to see me at once. He came to my hotel and said that Henderson and Hitler had had a meeting on Tuesday evening which had taken a very unsatisfactory course. They had parted after a big quarrel. He asked me what I could suggest under these circumstances.

During our conversation I was called on the phone by Göring, and he asked me to come to his house immediately. He told me the same story and seemed very upset at the development. He showed me the German reply to the British note and went through it point by point. He tried to explain to me the reasons for the contents of this note. Finally he told me I should go back to London again immediately and make every effort to explain this unfortunate incident to the British Government. He concluded then by saying that Hitler was busy, and that he was working out a proposal for Poland which should probably be ready the next day.

After a talk with Sir Kingsley Wood, the Air Minister, about another visit to England, I left again by plane on Wednesday morning at 5 o’clock. Immediately after my arrival in London I met the same members of the British Government.

DR. STAHMER: Who were they?

DAHLERUS: The same personages, Mr. Chamberlain, Lord Halifax, Sir Horace Wilson, Sir Alexander Cadogan.

DR. STAHMER: What was said in this discussion?

DAHLERUS: It was obvious that by that time the British Government had become highly mistrustful, and rather inclined to assume that whatever efforts they might make, nothing would now prevent Hitler from declaring war on Poland. The British Government had made the greatest effort. They had expressed the wish through their ambassador in Warsaw that the Polish Government should exert the greatest effort to avoid any border incidents. They explained to me at the same time that it was hardly fair to expect the Polish Government to send delegates to Berlin to negotiate, when it was known what experience other countries had had in the past years when they had been in Berlin on similar missions.

I telephoned Berlin, and asked to be connected with Göring, in order to persuade him to arrange a meeting of the delegates outside Germany. He merely said, however, that this was impossible; that Hitler was in Berlin, and the meeting would have to take place in Berlin. It was said, too, that proposals had been made to Poland, and that the members of the British Government viewed these proposals with the greatest suspicion. The entire Polish Government was to meet in the afternoon, and would cable the result of the session to Berlin. In the meantime I returned to Berlin.

DR. STAHMER: When did you meet Göring there?

DAHLERUS: I met Göring . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Can you not make this a little bit shorter, Dr. Stahmer?

DR. STAHMER: I believe this testimony is quite short, considering that it deals with the essential circumstances leading to war. However, I think that we shall not take too much more of the Tribunal’s time.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dahlerus, the Tribunal wish you to come to the crucial matter as soon as possible.

DAHLERUS: I met Göring shortly after midnight on Wednesday, and he told me the nature of the proposals made to Poland. He showed me the note. I called up Forbes to give him this information. He then told me that Ribbentrop had refused to give him the note, after he had read it through very quickly. I went to Göring immediately and told him it was impossible to treat the ambassador of an empire like Great Britain in this way. I suggested to him that he should allow me to telephone Forbes and give Forbes the contents of the note on the telephone. I did this at about 1 o’clock on Thursday morning.

DR. STAHMER: Did Göring not emphasize that he was taking a great responsibility on himself in giving you this permission?

DAHLERUS: Yes. Göring emphasized that he was doing this on his own responsibility.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then on the next morning go to the British Embassy in order to convince yourself as to whether your telephonic communication had been understood correctly?

DAHLERUS: Yes, I saw Henderson on Thursday morning, the 31st, at 10 o’clock, discussed the note with him, and he requested me then to go at once to the Polish Ambassador, M. Lipski, and give him a copy.

DR. STAHMER: Was that done?

DAHLERUS: He sent Forbes with me to Lipski, and I read the note to Lipski, but he did not seem to grasp its purport. I, therefore, left the room, dictated a note to the secretary, and handed it to him. In the meantime, Lipski stated to Forbes that he would not be interested in discussing this note with the German Government.

DR. STAHMER: Would you reconstruct this conversation as far as you are able? It seems to me particularly important.

DAHLERUS: He said that he had no reason to negotiate with the German Government. If it came to war between Poland and Germany, he knew—since he had lived 5½ years in Germany—that a revolution would break out in Germany, and that they would march on Berlin.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then inform London of your conversation by telephone?

DAHLERUS: I telephoned at once from the British Embassy and informed Sir Horace Wilson of the conference that we had had.

DR. STAHMER: Was there then another discussion in the afternoon with Göring?

DAHLERUS: I saw Göring at 1 o’clock in the afternoon. He received then a copy of the cablegram from the Polish Government to Lipski, to the effect that Lipski should not, without special instruction from Warsaw, negotiate with the German Government. It was obvious that the Poles under those circumstances were afraid to take any action. The German Government was, however, much disturbed at this telegram.

DR. STAHMER: On that afternoon did you again meet Göring, together with the British Ambassador?

DAHLERUS: The situation already seemed to have become impossible. Hitler had quarreled with Henderson. Ribbentrop, too, had quarreled with him. Therefore, I was of the opinion that the only possibility lay in Göring coming to an understanding with Henderson. I suggested a meeting between them. This took place at 4:50 in the afternoon, at Göring’s house. Forbes was present, and I too.

DR. STAHMER: What was said during this meeting?

DAHLERUS: Even before the meeting, Henderson expressed his suspicion that the German Government would try to arrange a settlement with Britain and cause a break between England and Poland. Henderson was therefore very cautious during the 2-hour session, and the result of the conversation was only that both parties agreed that a meeting of delegates from both countries would be necessary if war were possibly to be avoided.

DR. STAHMER: Did you on this occasion likewise suggest that Göring should meet the British delegates immediately?

DAHLERUS: I suggested that a meeting in Holland should be arranged at once, at which Göring should represent Germany.

DR. STAHMER: How did Henderson react to this proposal?

DAHLERUS: Henderson promised to submit this proposal to his Government. However, I had the impression that he already knew that German military forces were on the march, and it did not seem to me that he had much confidence in any fortunate outcome.

DR. STAHMER: Are you acquainted with a statement of Göring to the effect that if the Poles did not give in, Germany would kill them like lice; and if Britain should decide to declare war, he would regret it very much but it would be very unwise of Britain?

DAHLERUS: I cannot recollect these words, but it is possible that during the 2-hour conversation they were uttered.

DR. STAHMER: How did this conference end then?

DAHLERUS: At 7 o’clock in the evening it broke up and both parties were agreed that they would endeavor to arrange for a meeting in Holland.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then on 1 September meet Göring again?

DAHLERUS: On 1 September I met Göring at 8 o’clock at his headquarters. After some hesitation he told me that the war had broken out because the Poles had attacked the radio station of Gleiwitz and blown up a bridge near Dirschau. Later he gave me more details from which I concluded that the full force of the German Army was employed in the attack on Poland.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then on 3 September meet Göring again, and did you on this occasion, make the suggestion that Göring should fly to London immediately for a personal conference?

DAHLERUS: Well, before I mention what happened then, I should like to mention that I met Hitler on 1 September, immediately after his Reichstag speech in the Kroll Opera House. He was at that time exceedingly nervous and very agitated. He told me he had all along suspected that England wanted the war. He told me further that he would crush Poland and annex the whole country. Göring interrupted, and pointed out that they would advance as far as certain given points. But Hitler was in an uncontrollable frame of mind. He began to shout he would fight for 1 year, 2 years, and ended up in great agitation that he would, in fact, fight 10 years.

Then, on Sunday, 3 September, I was informed early in the morning by Forbes that at 9 o’clock that morning an ultimatum would be given. The conditions were that the hostilities must cease immediately and the German forces must be withdrawn to the German border. I went immediately to Göring’s headquarters near Potsdam. He was there and not with Hitler. I appealed to him to try at least to arrange for a reasonable reply to the ultimatum. I had the impression that certain members of the German Government were in favor of war and I was afraid if a written reply were given it would not be worded so as to avoid war with England. I therefore suggested that Göring should declare himself prepared to go to England, at once, before 11 o’clock, to negotiate there.

DR. STAHMER: How did Göring react to this suggestion?

DAHLERUS: He accepted this suggestion and telephoned Hitler, who likewise concurred with it.

DR. STAHMER: Did you then telephone London?

DAHLERUS: Yes. I telephoned London and got in touch with the Foreign Office. They gave the reply that they could not consider this proposal before they had received a written reply to the ultimatum.

DR. STAHMER: Did you forward this communication to Göring?

DAHLERUS: Yes, I told Göring this.

DR. STAHMER: What impression did your communication make on Göring?

DAHLERUS: Göring seemed to be sorry that the proposal was not accepted.

DR. STAHMER: Then on 4 September did you speak once more with Göring?

DAHLERUS: Yes, I had a short conversation with Göring on 4 September, but it was not of great importance.

DR. STAHMER: On this occasion did Göring say to you that, come what might, he would endeavor to carry on the war as humanely as possible? That Germany would under no circumstances begin hostilities against England first, but if England should attack Germany then the answer would be forthcoming?

DAHLERUS: Yes, that is correct.

DR. STAHMER: Did you publish a book entitled _Last Attempt_?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: Is the account given in this book in accordance with the truth?

DAHLERUS: Yes, it was written with greatest care. The contents are absolutely accurate and correct.

DR. STAHMER: Is this account based on notes that you took on these events?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: When did you write these notes?

DAHLERUS: I wrote them immediately after my return to Sweden on 5 September 1939.

DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I have three more brief questions—should I stop now?—they pertain to the subsequent period.

THE PRESIDENT: I think you could ask them now.

DR. STAHMER: [_Turning to the witness._] On 24 September 1939, did you speak to Forbes in Stockholm?

DAHLERUS: No, I met Forbes on 24 September in Oslo. That was after the occupation of Poland. It was an endeavor to ascertain if there was still a possibility of averting a world war. He gave me in writing the viewpoint of the British Government. It was briefly as follows: “The British and French Governments . . .”

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a moment. What has this got to do with the Defendant Göring?

DR. STAHMER: This is evidence that he made efforts even later to bring about peace.

I have only one more question which concerns Göring directly.

THE PRESIDENT: The fact that he met Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes in Oslo on 24 September does not at present appear to have anything to do with Göring.

DR. STAHMER: It appears significant in that it was the occasion for Mr. Dahlerus to get in touch with Berlin and Göring again in order to try once more, at this stage of events, to bring about peace.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, go on with your next question then.

DAHLERUS: The conditions were: “To save Europe from continued German aggressions and to enable the peoples of Europe . . .”

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. What has the letter that Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes wrote got to do with Göring?

DR. STAHMER: Dahlerus discussed this letter, the contents of this letter on 26 September with Göring, and tried on this basis to reach an agreement.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your Honor, may I enter a further objection?

It has nothing to do with the Indictment. We have not charged that the war against England was an aggressive war. The charge is that the war against Poland was an aggressive war. All of this negotiation to keep England out of the war while they took Poland is utterly irrelevant to the Indictment. I respectfully submit that because it has nothing to do with the Indictment, with the charge, it should be rejected.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, if the witness had an interview with Göring afterwards, you can come to that, but not to preliminary conferences with Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes.

DR. STAHMER: But that will not be comprehensible; he really must state what Forbes told him. He saw Forbes, Forbes made certain suggestions to him and with these suggestions Mr. Dahlerus went to Berlin and, of course, informed Göring what Forbes said to him. Thus, it will not otherwise be possible at all . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Let the witness give the account of his meeting with Göring.

DR. STAHMER: Very well.

[_Turning to the witness._] Mr. Dahlerus, you then on 26 September looked up Göring in Berlin, did you not?

DAHLERUS: Yes, I met both Göring and Hitler on 26 September.

DR. STAHMER: Did you inform Göring of the proposals Forbes had made to you?

DAHLERUS: I discussed with Hitler on what conditions he would be prepared to make good the harm he had done to Poland, and make peace. To my great disappointment he then definitely declared that he was not prepared at all to discuss the question of Poland. Poland was occupied and that was no business any longer of Great Britain. I then realized that his aim had been to split Poland and Britain and thus, with the consent of Great Britain, to have the opportunity of occupying Poland without running the risk of being involved in a war with Great Britain and France.

DR. STAHMER: In July 1940 did you again meet Göring?

DAHLERUS: Yes, Göring suggested in July, 1940 that His Majesty, the King of Sweden, should endeavor to bring the various powers together for peace negotiations.

DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn until 2:10 p.m.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1410 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

THE PRESIDENT: Do the defendants’ counsel wish to ask any questions?

DR. HORN: Witness, can you tell us the reason why the conference between Hitler and Henderson on 29 August took an unfavorable course?

DAHLERUS: No, I heard only the report that they disagreed and a quarrel started.

DR. HORN: Do you know on which of the six points the quarrel started?

DAHLERUS: As far as I recollect, it was on the wording of the German reply saying that they expected representatives from Poland during the next 24 hours.

DR. HORN: Did Hitler not explain to you then in the presence of Göring why he made this demand and that was because the two armies, the Polish and the German, were already facing each other in readiness, and at any moment a serious conflict was to be expected. Therefore Hitler did not want to present an ultimatum as to the sending of a negotiator from Poland, and thereby wanted solely to avoid the outbreak of a conflict?

DAHLERUS: Yes, explanations to that effect were given.

DR. HORN: Is it correct, Witness, as you state in your book, that at the Polish Embassy the Polish Ambassador Lipski told you that in case of war the Polish Army would march to Berlin in triumph?

DAHLERUS: No, he did not say that to me, but he made remarks to that effect to Forbes.

DR. HORN: And Forbes transmitted these remarks then to you.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

DR. HORN: How did your meeting with Mr. Forbes in Oslo on 24 September come about?

DAHLERUS: I took the initiative and went to Oslo to see him.

DR. HORN: Can you please tell us briefly the contents of the letter from Forbes?

DAHLERUS: I read that before.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already said that it does not want to hear that. And I do not see what it has to do with Von Ribbentrop.

DR. HORN: The former Foreign Minister, Von Ribbentrop, is under indictment for the leadership of the entire German foreign policy. I therefore consider it important that this letter, which will give decisive information about the further course of foreign policy, as Ribbentrop saw it—about his later attempt in the direction of peace, for instance—be read to the Tribunal.

DAHLERUS: To redeem Europe from the perpetually recurring fear of German aggression . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Was this letter ever shown to Von Ribbentrop?

DAHLERUS: No.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already ruled that it will not have the letter read.

DR. HORN: You had then on 26 September 1939 a discussion with Hitler. Is it correct that Hitler told you at that time he could not negotiate with England concerning Poland because the major part of Poland was occupied by Russia, and Russia, to his knowledge, would certainly not give it up?

DAHLERUS: He declared that he was not prepared to discuss the question of Poland, and added afterwards that, apart from his decision, he did not think Russia was prepared to discuss the territory occupied by Russia.

DR. HORN: Were you politically independent at the time you were conducting your negotiation?

DAHLERUS: Absolutely.

DR. HORN: Thank you, I have no further questions.

DR. LATERNSER: I have only one question for the witness: [_Turning to the witness._] Witness, did high military leaders at any time participate actively in the numerous negotiations which you had with German authorities at that time?

DAHLERUS: Never.

DR. LATERNSER: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Do other defendants’ counsel wish to ask any questions?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Mr. Dahlerus, will you tell me whether I understood your last answer to Dr. Stahmer correctly? Did you say “I then realized that it was on the 26th of September, that his”—that is Göring’s—“aim had been to split Poland and Great Britain and to occupy Poland with the consent of Great Britain”? Is that right?

DAHLERUS: Yes, it is correct, but I should like to say it was the German Government, including Göring.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Wait . . . the German Government. Thank you. Now, I just want you to tell the Tribunal quite shortly why you did not realize that aim earlier.

DR. STAHMER: As far as I understood the witness’ answer before, he said in answer to my question that that was Hitler’s opinion. The witness did not speak of Göring at all.

THE PRESIDENT: You will be able to re-examine him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I want you just to explain to the Tribunal—and listen to the question I put to you—why did you not understand that aim at the time? Your original object in seeing Göring at the beginning of July was to inform him that British public opinion had hardened and would not stand another act of aggression; that is right, is it not?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The reason you went to Göring is shown on Page 8 of your book, if you have got the English version.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, Mr. Dahlerus, I want you to be absolutely sure that when I quote your book I do not take anything out of its context. I shall try to make it as short as I can. Just before the break on Page 8 you say this:

“The essence of National Socialism was bellicose and aggressive
and completely devoid of all moral scruples in its dealings with
other nations. Hitler and his protégé Ribbentrop thirsted after
conquest. It was said that Göring had energetically striven for
a peaceful solution of the Munich crisis and this had lessened
his popularity within the German Government.”

That was the reason you went to Göring?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And when you put your point of view to Göring his first reaction was that the British Government was bluffing over Danzig and Poland.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you wanted and succeeded in arranging the first meeting in order to convince Göring that, according to British public opinion, the British Government was not bluffing, is that right?

DAHLERUS: Yes, that is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I just want you to turn to Page 29 of your book, at the very top of the page, which describes the end of your conversation with the Defendant Göring in the train before the meeting at the beginning of August. Do you remember?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Göring explained what his aim was. And if you look at the second line: “This was a mutual agreement regarding the holding of an Anglo-German conference . . .” and note the next words, Mr. Dahlerus, “with plenipotentiary representatives from both Governments.” One matter which Göring had always made clear was that he would demand the return of Danzig and certain rights over the Corridor—the Polish Corridor—is that not right?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And from the very start he wanted a plenipotentiary conference at which territory could, if necessary, be ceded to Germany, did he not?

DAHLERUS: Evidently.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I want you to come straight on to 24 August, when you saw Göring and he asked you to go to London. One of the points that he wanted you to stress was that he and the German Government thought that there had been a great improvement in their military situation because of the German-Soviet treaty.

DAHLERUS: That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And the other—if you turn to the bottom of Page 35 in your book and then look at the top of Page 36: “The reason was his disbelief that the German Foreign Office would be able or willing to establish a sufficiently close contact with the British Foreign Office.”

DAHLERUS: That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you remember that day you had the conversation with him, and later on he rang you up at 11:30 before your departure?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want you to tell the Tribunal one or two of the things he did not tell you on that day. He did not tell you, did he, that 2 days before, on the 22nd of August, at Obersalzberg, Hitler had told him and other German leaders that he—Hitler—had decided in the spring that a conflict with Poland was bound to come. He did not tell you that, did he?

DAHLERUS: I never had any indication or information on the political intentions, either on the 11th of April, or the 23rd of May, or the 22nd of August.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You never heard of—that is Document Number 798-PS, the one of the 22nd of August—you told us, you never heard of the Fall Weiss that had been prepared in April, but I want to get it quite clear about the other one, Document Number L-75 of the 23rd of May. He never told you that Hitler had said to him on that day that Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. “It is a question of expanding our living space in the East.” And I think he also did not tell you that Hitler had said on that day, “Our task is to isolate Poland; the success of the isolation will be decisive.” He never spoke to you about isolating Poland?

DAHLERUS: He never indicated anything in that direction at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But I think he did tell you in the earlier interview that he was going to see M. Lipski, the Polish Ambassador.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: He did not tell you, as I understand you, that he was going to inform M. Lipski that the main obstacle to any diminution of the tension between the two countries was Poland’s alliance with Great Britain. He did not tell you that, did he?

DAHLERUS: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is Exhibit Number GB-39, Document Number 72-PS, Page 119. So that, while he was asking you to go to England to deal with one side of the matter, he was dealing with M. Lipski on the other. I just want to get a clear picture of the situation on the 24th. Did he tell you that the decision had been made to attack Poland on the morning of the 26th?

DAHLERUS: No, in no way whatsoever.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you were asked to go with these general purposes, as I put it to you? You know now, Mr. Dahlerus, that on the next day our _note verbale_ was given to Sir Nevile Henderson by Hitler—on the 26th.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that note, as distinguished from what was said to you later on, stated in general terms that the Polish question must be solved, so that the effect of the plans, as they stood on the evening of the 24th, when Göring rang you up, was that you were going off in the morning with the expression of a general desire for a peaceful solution. The _note verbale_ was to be given to Sir Nevile Henderson on the afternoon of the 25th and at that time the plan was that Poland would be attacked on the morning of the 26th, when you had delivered your message, and Sir Nevile had sent on the _note verbale_? That was the position?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, did Göring ever tell you why the plan of attack was changed from the 26th to the 31st?

DAHLERUS: No, he never mentioned anything about the plan of attack; nor that it was changed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: He did not tell you that—this is Document Number TC-90, Exhibit Number GB-64—I quote Göring’s own words:

“On the day when England gave her official guarantee to
Poland”—that was the 25th—“the Führer called me on the
telephone and told me that he had stopped the planned invasion
of Poland. I asked him then whether this was just temporary or
for good. He said, ‘No, I will have to see whether we can
eliminate British intervention.’ So then I asked him, ‘Do you
think that it will be any different within 4 or 5 days?’”

Göring never told you that, at the time you were being sent to London, all that was wanted was to eliminate British intervention?

DAHLERUS: Not at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, I just want to state again, quite shortly; you went and came back with Lord Halifax’s letter. I want to make this quite clear, Mr. Dahlerus: Throughout Lord Halifax made it clear that Great Britain was going to stand by her obligations to Poland, did he not?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then on the 27th of August, the night of the 26th to 27th, at 12:30 midnight, you had this interview with Hitler. Now, to you, Mr. Dahlerus, Hitler for the first time made it clear that his terms were, that Great Britain should help Germany in securing Danzig and the Corridor.

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Not “rights in the Corridor,” but “the Corridor.” Do you remember that when you told that to Mr. Chamberlain he was surprised at the difference between your account and that given to Sir Nevile Henderson?

DAHLERUS: That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I am not going to go through it all again, but I just want you to help me from your own book, which you say was carefully and objectively written, as to the state of mind of the rulers of Germany at that time. Now, would you first of all look, with regard to Hitler, on Page 47? That is the passage you have already told the Tribunal about, where he was shouting, “Dann werde ich U-Boote bauen.”

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, just let me put it to you—it is quite short—how you described it at the time, and you tell me if it is right, “If there should be a war,” he said, “Dann werde ich U-Boote bauen, U-Boote, U-Boote!” and he raised his voice each time?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: “The voice became more indistinct and
finally one could not follow him at all. Then he pulled himself
together, raised his voice as though addressing a large audience
and shrieked—shrieked—‘Ich werde Flugzeuge bauen, Flugzeuge
bauen, Flugzeuge, Flugzeuge, und ich werde meine Feinde
vernichten.’”

And you go on to say:

“Just then he seemed more like a phantom from a story book than
a real person. I stared at him in amazement and turned to see
how Göring reacted, but he did not turn a hair.”

Now, would you mind turning on to Page 53? No, just one sentence before the bit I read on Page 47, I just want to get that clear. You say: “His words became blurred and his behavior was that of a completely abnormal person.”

Now, you turn to Page 53. I want you to tell the Tribunal your impression of the way he treated the Defendant Göring. The Tribunal has heard a lot about the relations between them. At the bottom of the page you say this:

“From the very beginning of our conversation I had resented his
manner toward Göring, his most intimate friend and comrade from
the years of struggle. His desire to dominate was explicable,
but to require such obsequious humility, as Göring now
exhibited, from his closest collaborator seemed to me
excessively repellent and unprepossessing.”

Would you just turn over to Page 54, the fifth line from the end?

“I realized that I was dealing with a person who could not be
considered normal.”

That was your considered view, was it not, Mr. Dahlerus?

DAHLERUS: It was the opinion I formed the first time I met him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was the Chancellor of Germany. Now I want you, for a moment, to deal with the Foreign Minister of Germany, according to the impressions that you formed. Generally, I think you got the impression that Von Ribbentrop was doing everything he could to interrupt and spoil your endeavors?

DAHLERUS: That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But according to Göring, he went further than that. Will you look at Page 76? This is, you remember, when you were just saying goodbye to Göring, on, I think, your last visit to London, after he had drawn the map, which I will come to in a moment. Did you say this:

“Before we parted, he again went over the German standpoint,
saying finally that if we never met again he would like to take
the opportunity of thanking me for what I have done and for my
tireless energy in the cause of peace. I was somewhat surprised
by this farewell and could not help replying that in all
probability we should meet again soon. His expression changed
and he said solemnly: ‘Perhaps; but certain people are doing
what they can to prevent your getting out of this alive.’”

That was said seriously and solemnly, Mr. Dahlerus?

DAHLERUS: Exactly.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you go on:

“At a meeting in October of the same year Göring told me that
Ribbentrop had tried to arrange for my plane to crash. Hence
Göring’s solemn mien when he bid me farewell.”

DAHLERUS: Well, he had mentioned Ribbentrop’s name just a minute before, and when he spoke about the plane crashing, he used the word “he.” I assumed he meant Ribbentrop.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was the Foreign Minister, according to Göring.

I want you now to turn to Page 100, because I want to collect these things. This is a description of the 1st of September, the afternoon of the day on which Poland had been attacked, and you saw the Defendant Göring, I think, in the Air Ministry or at one of his offices. Do you see it? It is just before the second break.

“To him”—that is, to Göring—“everything was lined up according
to a plan which nothing could upset. Finally he called in the
State Secretaries Körner and Gritzbach, gave them a long
harangue, and presented each of them with a sword of honor,
which he hoped they would carry gloriously through the war. It
was as if all these people were in some crazy state of
intoxication.”

Are these your words?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that is the impression? Of course you mean that they were mentally intoxicated with the idea of war?

DAHLERUS: They had changed their frame of mind within a short time.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that, of the three principal people in Germany, the Chancellor was abnormal; the Reich Marshal, or the Field Marshal, as he was then, was in a crazy state of intoxication; and, according to the Defendant Göring, the Foreign Minister was a would-be murderer who wanted to sabotage your plane?

[_The witness nodded assent._]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just let us proceed, quite shortly, with what happened after that.

On the week end of 26 and 27 August you went to England. You have told me that you did not know about the calling off of the attack on the morning of the 26th, and you did not know that the intention of Hitler was to eliminate English intervention. You did not know these points; so you went back to England on the 27th with these fuller terms, and the English answer was that, while they maintained their obligations, they hoped and recommended that the German and Polish Governments might begin negotiations between themselves with regard to the point?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that was the answer that you brought back.

Now, I just want you to think for a moment of the interview that you had at breakfast time with Göring, I think in his train or in his headquarters, on the 28th of August. You find it at Page 65 of the book, if you want to refresh your memory. At that time, did Göring not try and convince you that the return of Danzig and the Corridor would make no difference to Poland’s military situation?

DAHLERUS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Because, illustrating it from his own war maps, he thought that Germany was in a position to defeat the Poles anyhow, whether they had the Corridor or whether they hadn’t?

DAHLERUS: Yes.