Chapter M: E. Brian, Windsor, Ontario, city engineer (1)

Adolph Sloman, Detroit, Mich.

Mr. FENKELL. Mr. Chairman, we were notified of the meeting to-day, but we had no notice of the time at which the meeting would be held.

Mr. TAWNEY. The notice that was sent to the mayor stated that the meeting would be held at 10 o’clock a. m.

Mr. FENKELL. The mayor had been out of the city for several days, and about a week ago he came home sick. He has been ill in bed ever since. He hopes to be at the city hall some time to-day if possible. He intended to be here at the beginning of your meeting, and his absence is accounted for by his sickness.

Mr. TAWNEY. Well, he has relied, I presume, for his information upon the studies of those problems that were made by yourself and your assistants, has he not?

Mr. FENKELL. I may say that Mr. Hubbell’s report was turned over to the printers as soon as received. A copy of my letter transmitting the same to the council and the summary in his report were printed in the council proceedings. We have not received printed copies of his report yet. Mr. Hubbell, the engineer who made our investigation, told me this morning that he hoped to have copies by noon.

Mr. TAWNEY. Is Mr. Hubbell here?

Mr. FENKELL. He is not here. He will be here some time this morning. He came in and asked me what time the meeting would be held, and I told him that I had not heard, and he went out. That was about half an hour ago.

Mr. GARDNER. What time do you use here, eastern or central time?

Mr. FENKELL. We use eastern time. I sent notices to the members of the board of health, the health officer, the sanitary engineer, members of the board of water commissioners, their secretary and general superintendent, the common council, members of the committee on health and city hospitals, members of the committee on sewers, Mr. Hubbell, and perhaps others. I told them of the meeting to be held to-day, but I did not state any time. Very likely a notice giving the time of the meeting at 10 o’clock was received in my office, but I do not remember seeing it. It is probably an oversight on my part.

Mr. TAWNEY. Mr. Rich, before beginning the hearings the commission would like to know what the relation of the State is to the public health and the sewage question of the city of Detroit. Has the State board of health supreme control?

Mr. RICH. That, Mr. Commissioner, is set forth in a law known as act 98 of the public acts of 1913, of which I think we furnished you a copy some two years ago.

Mr. TAWNEY. When we were here before?

Mr. RICH. Yes. As we understand it, that gives the State board of health authority to order whatever changes may be deemed necessary in any water in the State for purposes of public health.

Mr. TAWNEY. Has that authority been questioned heretofore by the city of Detroit?

Mr. RICH. Not in court. I do not know whether it has elsewhere or not.

Mr. TAWNEY. Mayor Marx, have you any information on that subject?

Mr. MARX. I do not recall any.

Mr. RICH. The matter of Highland Park was involved to some extent, but that has been settled.

Mr. TAWNEY. So up to the present time under the existing law the State board of health has the power to order any remedial measures that it may deem necessary to protect the public health?

Mr. RICH. That is the way we understand the law, and that was the intention when it was passed. It has not been definitely tested in court yet.

Mr. TAWNEY. At the suggestion of the chair we will proceed to hear the representatives of the State of Michigan with respect to the remedies that are proposed by the consulting sanitary engineer of the commission. It is our understanding, Mr. Rich, that your office has been giving considerable attention and study to the various alternative plans proposed by the consulting sanitary engineer of the commission. I think it would be advisable to hear the representatives of the State first.

Mr. RICH. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the commission, I regret to say that we have not given the alternative plans very much consideration. We have not had the report long enough to be able to do so. It seems to me that the function of the office which I represent is to judge not so much the economical features that arise with respect to the various questions coming before us as the sanitary features, although we are always glad to give the municipalities what assistance we can in the economical solution of their problems. But we understand that the law first contemplates our passing upon the plans from the sanitary standpoint and giving our opinion as to whether or not they will produce the results desired, with perhaps not very much regard to the cost, although as engineers we could hardly pass by that important feature as a matter of conscience.

We have been very much interested in the studies being made, and, in fact, have done quite a little in the way of investigation ourselves since the termination of the work of this commission. We have in progress now a report of our studies of the municipalities below Detroit, having for its object the determination of the factors entering into the production of the abnormal typhoid death rate which has existed for a number of years. A careful study has been made of each particular case so far as we were able to find it.

Mr. POWELL. How long before your report will be printed?

Mr. RICH. Probably two or three months. After that we expect to proceed to remedial measures at once; that is, the different municipalities will probably be called before the State board of health for a hearing, giving them a chance to express their opinion as to what should be done and what they are willing to do; and if they are not willing to do anything, or if they seem to be too slow, undoubtedly the State board of health would set a time within which they must conform to its orders. That has been done to some extent already with the city of Monroe, and proceedings are going forward as rapidly as we could expect there for a purified water supply. Some steps are being taken looking to the treatment of sewage. We hope that similar results may be obtained in the other municipalities below Detroit.

Mr. POWELL. Have you adopted any standard for purification of sewage?

Mr. RICH. We feel that we are indebted to this commission for a very fine determination of that point, and I might say that we are practically relying upon that entirely.

Mr. POWELL. Then you agree with us in that?

Mr. RICH. We have accepted the views of your consulting engineers almost entirely. We feel that it was very wise indeed.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you gone sufficiently into the proposed remedies for sewage disposal to enable you to express any opinion whatever with respect to the efficiency of the remedies proposed by our consulting engineer?

Mr. RICH. In a general way; yes. From what we have been able to learn with regard to the proposition for screening sewage and afterwards treating it with a disinfectant we would not feel sufficient confidence in that to recommend it. The other methods proposed we would concur in. We concur in the judgment of the engineers with reference to the methods, but regarding the particular location of plants we are unable to express our opinion at the present time owing to the fact that we have not gone into that as carefully as we would like to do. In fact, I hardly think we would have time to go into it enough to feel sufficiently justified in expressing a very definite opinion as to the particular location of plants; in other words, as to the economics of the question, but we do feel like approving fully the views of Prof. Phelps, Mr. Hubbell, and Mr. McRae in these matters. I think they will agree with me that screening is hardly to be relied upon.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you given any consideration to the proposed consolidation of the various villages around Detroit into one general or Detroit metropolitan sanitary district?

Mr. RICH. I have given some personal thought to it, but there have been no steps taken as yet looking toward a special investigation of that matter. I am very much interested in it. I am at the present time very much in favor of a thorough study as to the feasibility of such an organization. I believe it is the only feasible solution of the whole problem.

Mr. TAWNEY. From an economical standpoint, do you think it would be advantageous both to the city and to the surrounding municipalities?

Mr. RICH. I do, yes; and I think it would be advantageous from every standpoint.

Mr. TAWNEY. Are you conducting your studies, then, with reference to the consolidated sewage district suggested by the consulting sanitary engineer?

Mr. RICH. No; we are not. We have not gotten as far ahead as that yet. We are simply studying the present condition, and whatever we recommend will probably be of such a nature that no great amount of money would be lost if consolidation should be effected later, but it would be more immediately available for the alleviation of existing conditions.

Mr. TAWNEY. Are you contemplating any improvement in the matter of sewage disposal for the city of Detroit independent of any recommendations of this commission?

Mr. RICH. No; we are not.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you made any bacteriological examination of the waters of the Detroit River independent of the examination which was made by our bacteriologists?

Mr. RICH. We have made some this summer in connection with the water as it is supplied to the other municipalities, not making a study of the river as a river, but, taking it as it comes through the means of these municipalities below, we have made some studies.

Mr. TAWNEY. How does your examination compare with the examination of the cross sections of the river made by our bacteriologists?

Mr. RICH. They could not be compared, because all the water that is taken from these intakes comes from a single point in the river. We have not taken any samples in the river any more than last year we took some few samples from the western end of Lake Erie which coincided in a general way with the findings of the bacteriologists of this commission, except that our samples were taken at other points and showed what might be expected from theirs.

Mr. TAWNEY. As the chief State sanitary engineer, what would you say, Mr. Rich, as to the thoroughness and completeness of the work of the consulting engineers in their study of the problems that are involved here in the city of Detroit?

Mr. RICH. I think it has been very fine, indeed. I do not believe I could speak too enthusiastically upon that point. I am very much pleased, indeed, with the results obtained and the way in which the work was done, and that especially in connection with Mr. Hubbell’s work on the part of the city. It is a fine thing.

Mr. MAGRATH. You feel that we were justified in undertaking the work?

Mr. RICH. I do, indeed; and I think it is a great contribution to the future as indicating the way in which such problems ought to be attacked and worked out.

Mr. POWELL. Have you given any consideration to the disposal of the sludge that would be the result of screening and sedimentation?

Mr. RICH. Not any more than our general reading of the subject. We have not made any studies of local conditions. Sludge obtained from fine screening would probably need to be disposed of by incineration or else taken to a long distance from the city and buried; but probably that would be too much for the city of Detroit.

Mr. POWELL. The city of London has installed, and the city of Glasgow, Scotland, was about to install when the war broke out, a system which makes it a decided success from an economical standpoint. They produce a lot of chemicals from the sludge. You have not given any attention to that?

Mr. RICH. You do not know what they produce?

Mr. POWELL. Yes; some of the things they produce are gasoline, carbolic acid, and a pitch. I think there are nine by-products that they dispose of.

Mr. RICH. No; I am not familiar with the details of that.

Mr. TAWNEY. I understand you to say, Mr. Rich, that, while you have read the different alternative plans or remedies proposed by our consulting sanitary engineer, you have not given them sufficient study to determine what, in your judgment, would be the most desirable and the most economical in practice?

Mr. RICH. No; I do not think so.

Mr. TAWNEY. You do not desire to express an opinion on either one of them?

Mr. RICH. Only that I think we would be justified in saying that we believe the tankage method, followed by sterilization, would be superior to screening methods.

Mr. MIGNAULT. That is, you prefer the process of sedimentation to that of fine screening?

Mr. RICH. That is it. That is as far as we would feel justified in going.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you any opinion to express as to whether there should be one hour or two hours of sedimentation?

Mr. RICH. No. I think that would depend considerably upon the character of the sewage. We have made no tests whatever of the time required for the Detroit sewage. In fact, we have made no tests of any sort on the Detroit sewage.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have any of your assistants anything to offer independent of what you have set forth?

Mr. RICH. The two men who made the actual studies down the stream from here are present, and if you would like to hear from them at this time or at a future time they will be available. Mr. Follin had charge of the field work in the investigation at Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton.

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES W. FOLLIN, OF DETROIT, ASSISTANT
TO THE STATE SANITARY ENGINEER.

Mr. FOLLIN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the survey which Mr. Rich has explained to you and which Mr. Waterman and I made at Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton, was made primarily to determine the conditions existing in connection with the high typhoid death rate in those communities and to determine what should be done to remedy those conditions. I have here a digest of the work as we planned it and carried it on which I will go over with you. The necessity for these surveys was shown by the high typhoid death rates in these communities.

Mr. TAWNET. What were those death rates?

Mr. FOLLIN. They are given in this statement which I will read:

A sanitary survey in the villages of Ford and Trenton
and in the city of Wyandotte has recently been made by
E. L. Waterman and J. W. Follin under the direction of
the State sanitary engineer and by authorization of the
State board of health. The necessity for such surveys was
shown by a study of the typhoid fever death rates in these
communities. This study disclosed the following facts:

In Ford the average death rate during the period of
1904-1915, inclusive, was 364.5; the maximum was 849,
occurring in 1907; the minimum was 126, occurring in 1908.

In Wyandotte the average death rate during the period
of 1900-1915, inclusive, was 87.2; the maximum was 144,
occurring in 1913; the minimum was 12, occurring in 1911.

For Trenton the average death rate during the period
1904-1915, inclusive, was 94.8; the maximum was 243,
occurring in 1913; the minimum was 0, occurring in 1905,
1910, 1912, and 1914.

The objects of these surveys were to determine in each
community--

1. The general sanitary condition.

2. The quality of both private and public water supplies.

3. The adequacy of present sewerage systems and the extent
of their use.

4. The amount of typhoid fever and probable reasons for its
presence.

The surveys were begun on February 15 and completed on
May 1, 1916. They were carried on simultaneously in each
community. Frequent bacteriological tests on the public
and private supplies were made, the location of existing
sewers was determined, also the number and character of
connections to them, the history of the typhoid-fever cases
occurring during 1914, 1915, and the first four months of
1916 was ascertained. A study of the data collected shows
that the following conditions exist:

The village of Ford obtains its water supply from the
Detroit River through an intake located at the harbor line.
This water is supplied to the consumers without treatment.
A 12-inch and 42-inch sewer empty into the river above
this intake and a 36-inch sewer discharges at a point some
distance below. A private sewer from the industrial plant
of the Michigan Alkali Co. discharges into the river at
a point about 50 feet downstream from the water intake.
Float measurements made at a time when a southeast wind
was blowing showed that the effluent from this sewer was
undoubtedly carried past the water intake. The results of
bacteriological analyses on the village water showed that
it was badly contaminated at all times and at no time fit
for drinking purposes. The histories of typhoid-fever cases
in Ford showed that in practically all cases the infection
was obtained from the village water supply. There was a
remarkable absence of secondary or contact cases. The
general use of outside closets which discharge into the
sewer, but which are not provided with flushing devices, is
to be deplored.

The city of Wyandotte obtains its public water supply
from the Detroit River, the intake pipes extending out
a distance of approximately 150 feet from the shore. In
March, 1914, hypochlorite of lime treatment of the water
was begun. Our bacteriological analyses show that out of
35 tests the treated water was satisfactory in only 15
instances, or 43 per cent of the time. The city sewerage
system has four points of outlet--all into the river, but
at points below the water intake. Many of the connections
to the sewers are of the same nonflushing, outside closet
type that is prevalent in Ford. The typhoid-fever case
histories all point to the city water supply as the
probable source of infection. There are a few private water
supplies which are obtained from wells. An examination of
these supplies shows that most of them are uncontaminated
at present.

The village of Trenton gets its water supply from the
Detroit River, the intake pipes extending out about 200
feet from the shore line. This water is supplied to the
consumers without treatment. Bacteriological examinations
show that this water is polluted at all times and
absolutely unfit for drinking purposes. There are many
private wells in Trenton and nearly all of them show sewage
contamination. This is probably due to the fact that
there is no general sewerage system in the village and
consequently outdoor privies are common. Where plumbing
has been installed the sewage is carried to open drains in
most cases, where direct connection to the river is not
feasible. There are 20 private sewers emptying into the
river above the water intake, and the village authorities
have recently decided to add a public sewer to this
number. General sanitary conditions in the village are
exceedingly poor and the village authorities seem very
unconcerned when these conditions are called to their
attention. The study of the typhoid-fever cases occurring
in Trenton during 1914 and 1915 shows that a majority of
the cases are due to the polluted public water supply,
but that some may be attributed to general insanitary
conditions, such as open drains, outside privies, and
polluted well supplies.

REMEDIAL MEASURES.

Filtration of the public water supplies is necessary in all
these localities. It is advisable to install intercepting
sewers in Fort which will carry all sewage to a point near
the southern boundary of the village where a treatment
plant consisting of Imhoff tanks followed by chlorination
should be installed. This will protect the Ford water
supply from contamination by sewage from the village and
also lighten the load on the Wyandotte water filtration
plant. Better raw water can be secured at Wyandotte and
Ford by the extension of the intake pipes into the river
channel. The best location for the intakes can only be
determined by a careful investigation of the quality of the
water at different points in the cross section.

At Trenton filtration of the public water supply and a
general sewerage system which will properly sewer the
entire village and carry the sewage to a point well below
the water intake are the essential measures immediately
necessary for the proper safeguarding of the public
health. As Trenton is the farthermost downstream community
of importance, we do not feel that a treatment plant is
necessary at the present time. However, we shall insist on
a design for the sewerage system which will contemplate
treatment of the sewage should such treatment become
necessary in the future.

Below Trenton on the Michigan side of the river we have only one city of any size; in fact, only one community which takes its water supply from water which is affected by the Detroit River. That is the city of Monroe, of about 7,500 people. It is situated on the River Raisin, which obtains its water from the western end of Lake Erie. The studies made by the engineers of this commission have disclosed the fact that the sewage of the Detroit River contaminates the waters of Lake Erie to a point as far as the islands which separate that portion of the lake from the rest of Lake Erie.

Mr. TAWNEY. How many miles is it?

Mr. FOLLIN. I do not know exactly.

Mr. TAWNEY. About 18 miles, is it not?

Mr. FOLLIN. It is probably a little farther than that. Last summer we made an investigation with respect to typhoid fever conditions at Monroe and found that although not started by the city water, the city water then did spread an epidemic of typhoid fever in the town. We made some investigation of the waters immediately in the western end of the lake next to their waterworks intake and found that they were not of sufficient quality to enable the water there to be made fit for domestic purposes by chlorination alone. We accordingly called a meeting of the State board of health, at which the officials of Monroe and the officials of the Monroe Water Co., a private company, were called in for consultation. They expressed their willingness to go ahead and complete the filtration works for the city. Those details are now being worked out. No definite order was made by the board of health in that instance because it was not deemed necessary.

So our statement that possibly the village of Trenton alone need to immediately treat its sewage is based on our local conditions along the Michigan shore and not on any study of conditions that might exist on the other side. But our recommendations to them are that their plans be so drawn that treatment works can be installed when necessary. Trenton is now very seriously in need of the installation of a good public water supply, and we would certainly endeavor to hasten the time when they can have such a supply.

Mr. TAWNEY. All the sewage of these cities that you have mentioned is deposited in the Detroit River in a raw state?

Mr. FOLLIN. In a raw state; yes, sir. There is no treatment whatever.

Mr. GARDNER. They are all below the city of Detroit?

Mr. FOLLIN. They are all below Detroit.

Mr. TAWNEY. You are a sanitary engineer, are you not?

Mr. FOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. TAWNEY. You are a graduate of the State university at Ann Arbor?

Mr. FOLLIN. I am a graduate of the State university at Ann Arbor; yes, sir.

Mr. TAWNEY. How long have you been in practice?

Mr. FOLLIN. I have been with Mr. Rich, at Lansing, for one year and have been graduated three years.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you given any study at all to the report of our consulting sanitary engineer in regard to remedies for the pollution of the Detroit River?

Mr. FOLLIN. I have given only general consideration to it in the same way that Mr. Rich has, realizing that your problem was----

Mr. TAWNEY. From the study that you have given to it, what have you to say as to the thoroughness of the work that was done?

Mr. FOLLIN. We consider that the work has been very thoroughly carried out, and that the recommendations made are very feasible.

Mr. TAWNEY. Does the State Board of Health of Michigan agree with the sanitary experts generally that no raw sewage should be deposited in any stream that supplies other municipalities or localities with water for domestic and sanitary purposes?

Mr. FOLLIN. Personally we feel very strongly that way, but we realize that those opinions can not be forced within a very short time onto the municipalities in Michigan; but such an ideal condition must come slowly.

Mr. TAWNEY. What have you to say as to the standard of purification recommended by the consulting engineers in this progress report?

Mr. FOLLIN. I do not feel that I am in a position to comment on that, although from the little study I have given the matter I believe it is very reasonable. I might explain one other thing. Our reason for studying only Ford City, Wyandotte, and Trenton below Detroit on this side of the river and not studying the river at River Rouge and Ecorse was because the Detroit water supply is furnished to River Rouge and Ecorse and that the river supply is first used below Detroit at Ford City. It was our intention to first study those conditions because they related to the purity of the water in the Detroit River.

Mr. POWELL. I understood you to say that in one of these municipalities in which the water was treated it was found afterwards on examination to be unfit for drinking purposes.

Mr. FOLLIN. Yes; I did say that. During the course of our investigations we made 35 examinations of the treated water at Wyandotte, covering a period of several months. During that time we found only 15 of those samples to show the water fit for drinking purposes only 35 per cent of the time.

Mr. POWELL. That is, after it had undergone the process of sterilization?

Mr. FOLLIN. After it had undergone the treatment of hypochloride of lime.

Mr. POWELL. Have you figures as to the condition before it underwent the treatment?

Mr. FOLLIN. We have those figures. In no case was the raw water fit for drinking purposes without treatment.

Mr. POWELL. Can you give the result of your bacteriological examination?

Mr. FOLLIN. We have a report now under preparation which will give these figures in detail, and we hope to have that out within several weeks.

Mr. POWELL. You can not speak from memory?

Mr. FOLLIN. Yes; the raw water was not fit.

Mr. POWELL. But that is a general statement. Do you remember how many B. coli to the cubic centimeter there were?

Mr. FOLLIN. We have not that data with us; no, sir.

Mr. TAWNEY. Will your other assistant have the figures?

Mr. RICH. I would like to have Mr. Waterman speak with reference to the attitude taken by the municipalities which we investigated. The statement read by Mr. Follin is the advance sheet of our report. It is the conclusions that are come to in our report. The report will contain more than this contains, but this is a digest of what will be the findings.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. L. WATERMAN.

Mr. WATERMAN. I can not add very much to the statements which Mr. Rich and Mr. Follin have already made, but I would like to say something in regard to the attitude which the village and city authorities in the places which we have investigated have taken toward these surveys. We found that at Ford village the authorities were very enthusiastic toward this investigation. They evidently wanted to learn just what the conditions were, and they were eager to get our opinions as to the means of correcting the conditions now existing. At Wyandotte the city authorities showed some enthusiasm, but we did not find them as enthusiastic as we felt they should have been over an investigation of this kind. I might say that the city of Wyandotte has been struggling with the problem of public water supply for some eight years, and that during that time many bacteriological examinations and chemical examinations of the water have been made at the State board of health laboratory, and at one time a consulting engineer was employed to make preliminary plans for a water filtration plant; that this proposition was defeated by a vote of the city; and that since that time very little has been done. The only thing was the introduction of a hypochlorite of lime treatment in March, 1914. As already stated, our investigations showed that a hypochlorite treatment is not adequate to give the city of Wyandotte a safe water supply. In the village of Trenton, I am sorry to say, the attitude of the village authorities has been more unfavorable than favorable. They do not seem to realize the importance of improvements in the sanitary conditions, and we have met with very little cooperation from the authorities themselves. I think that this is about all that I can add to the statements already made.

Mr. GARDNER. Do you think there is any growing interest in this matter?

Mr. WATERMAN. I should say that in Ford village and Wyandotte there is undoubtedly a growing interest, and that among a very few people in Trenton, that you might call thinking people, there is a growing interest, but the general attitude is not favorable.

Mr. GARDNER. They are not all thinking people.

Mr. POWELL. There is one point you are clear on, and that is that chlorination is not sufficient for the purification of the water down there for drinking purposes?

Mr. WATERMAN. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. It would have to be supplemented or preceded by sedimentation or screening?

Mr. WATERMAN. You are speaking of the water itself?

Mr. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. WATERMAN. We feel that filtration of the water supply is necessary, followed by chlorination.

Mr. TAWNEY. Is this contamination of the waters of these various places due to the sewage which they themselves deposit in the water raw, or is it due to the pollution that is put in above raw, that goes farther out in the stream?

Mr. WATERMAN. In the case of Ford City, I would say that the sewage of the village itself undoubtedly contaminates an already polluted supply, and the same is true of Trenton, although undoubtedly the pollution which enters the river from the city of Detroit is more or less mitigated before reaching Trenton. At Wyandotte the sewers are all below the water intake, but the sewers from the village of Ford are above and undoubtedly pollute that supply.

Mr. TAWNEY. How far above?

Mr. WATERMAN. I would estimate the nearest one was about a mile above the intake, and there are two others within a distance of 2 miles from the intake, both entering directly into the river at the harbor or dock line----

Mr. TAWNEY. And the intake at Wyandotte is how far out?

Mr. WATERMAN. The intake at Wyandotte is approximately 150 feet out, so that whatever pollution comes in at this point 1 mile or 2 miles above would probably be diffused that distance from the shore at least, probably more.

Mr. MIGNAULT. What is exactly the position taken by the citizens of Trenton?

Mr. WATERMAN. I do not think the citizens, as citizens, have had very much opportunity thus far to express themselves on the question. It is really the village authorities.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Well, substitute in my question “the village authorities” for “the citizens”; what position do they take exactly?

Mr. WATERMAN. They take the position that everything is all right down there, and that there is no reason in the world why they should not go on putting in sewage in the water.

Mr. MIGNAULT. They are not impressed by the statistics which have been read here.

Mr. WATERMAN. Those statistics have not yet been presented to them.

Mr. TAWNEY. Nevertheless they have been informed of those facts.

Mr. WATERMAN. Yes; they have been informed of the facts, and the majority of the village council have, by their acts, shown that they do not appreciate those statistics which have been brought to their notice.

Mr. MIGNAULT. What exactly were the powers of the State board with regard to a city like Trenton, in order to compel it, if necessary, to take the necessary measures for water purification or treatment of sewage?

Mr. WATERMAN. The powers of the State board, I think, have been outlined by Mr. Rich, and if I repeat, I am trying to repeat what he said, that the State board has the power to order any improvements in the sewage systems of the village necessary in the opinion of the State board for the betterment of public health.

Mr. MIGNAULT. No such order has been given so far?

Mr. WATERMAN. No. We feel, and are rather certain, that such orders will be given, if necessary, after the completion and adoption of our present report.

Mr. POWELL. I suppose they would rather run the risk of death than face the certainty of increased taxation.

Mr. WATERMAN. That seems to be the opinion, although one useful fact has been brought out by our investigations, and that is that the old residents of these towns and cities are, for the most part, immune to typhoid fever. It is the newcomers who come on, usually within six months time of taking up their residence there, who are liable to take it.

Mr. POWELL. The old ones are immune.

Mr. WATERMAN. They have either had it some time in the past or have become so used to the water supply that the typhoid germs diffused into their system do not affect them at all.

Mr. POWELL. There is such a thing as being immune from it.

Mr. WATERMAN. I think so.

Mr. POWELL. I may say, Mr. Rich, as you are aware, the commission has had before it since August, 1914, the pollution investigation. We have carried on two distinct pieces of work. I am not looking for any compliments to the commission, but, as the representative of the State of Michigan, are you willing to go on record, first, as to the value and character of the work which we have done under the two branches of the investigation, and, second, the diligence and thoroughness with which both have been conducted?

Mr. RICH. I am heartily so. I believe that there has been no previous examination of this wide character and extent carried on anywhere--at least, none has come to my notice--and I feel that the work of the commission has been of great value to us in our work, not only in the specific material studied and the ground covered but in the general principles evolved from that study. We feel that we have been equipped with ammunition that is going to be very useful to us.

Mr. TAWNEY. You mean useful throughout the State?

Mr. RICH. Yes; and for all time to come, as assisting us in formulating our policy in a great many cases. We also feel that the investigation, after the first study, has been very thoroughly carried on, indeed. Mr. McRae’s studies here were prosecuted with keen insight into the requirements of the question. As far as speed is concerned, I do not well see how the results could have been obtained any more promptly than they have been. The only delays that I have been able to notice in the procedure from the start to the finish was while the material was in the printer’s hands, and I do not see how that could be construed as delay in the ordinary sense. There was the unavoidable wait for the material to be placed in such shape that it could be put before the people.

Mr. TAWNEY. Dr. McCullough, you represent the Province of Ontario, which has jurisdiction along the water front, has it not? Can you give the commission any opinion with respect to the work of the Province in connection with the subject and water purification on your side of the line?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Would you like me to outline the policy of the Province?

Mr. TAWNEY. Yes. We have had the policy of the State on this side and it would be appropriate to have the policy of the Province of Ontario on the other side.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. W. S. McCULLOUGH, OF TORONTO.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. In the Province of Ontario the provincial board of health has control of the establishment of waterworks and water-purification works, sewage works, and sewage-disposal works of all kinds. No water plant can be established by any municipality or by any individual for public use unless the consent and approval of the provincial board of health, to which body all plans must be supplied, is obtained.

Mr. GARDNER. How long has that condition existed?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Since 1912; it exists in its present state since 1912. It did exist previously for some years, but not in a satisfactory condition. No municipality can raise money on debentures without the approval of the provincial board of health for works of the character I have mentioned, and we have further power to force extensions. We have also power, under certain circumstances, to allow the municipality to establish works of this kind and raise money without the consent of the people, and in a number of cases that has been done.

Mr. GARDNER. Without limitation?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Without the vote of the people and without any limitation.

Mr. TAWNEY. Except the exigency of the case.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it is the policy of the board, of course, as a rule, not to interfere in that way, but to have the people vote on a money by-law. Now, there is another way a municipality can establish works of utility, and that is by having a two-thirds vote of the council. It is a sort of local improvement; that is, for extension of sewers.

Mr. GARDNER. The provincial council?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. No; the municipal council.

Mr. TAWNEY. Has your board recently made any surveys for the purpose of ascertaining the conditions along the Detroit River on your side in regard to the villages or cities located there?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. We were concerned in making the first progress report. The Provincial Board of Health of Ontario, as you will remember, supplied laboratories.

Mr. TAWNEY. You were associated with Dr. McLaughlin in that--you and Mr. Dallyn?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. TAWNEY. I thought it was well to get in the record the policy of the provincial board.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. The policy of the provincial board is, broadly speaking, along public-health lines. We are satisfied that the water supplies are accountable for a good deal of disease of an intestinal character, and it is our object to lessen the amount of pollution of the boundary waters as much as possible and have the waters purified as much as possible. Just recently we have been able to secure a purification plant at Niagara, on the Lake, where there is a military concentration camp, under an arrangement of this kind. The municipality is bearing half the expense and the Federal Government is bearing the other half, because it is such an important matter from the point of view of having the troops there supplied with good water.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Is that water furnished to the municipality generally, or simply to the camp?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. At Niagara-on-the-Lake it is a municipal water supply. They simply pump it from the Niagara River and clarify it. It requires to be very heavily chlorinated, because it is badly polluted. Then, in addition to that, the military authorities have provided this year a portable violet-ray plant, whereby the water supplied for cooking and drinking purposes to the soldiers’ camp is purified.

Mr. MIGNAULT. That is merely for the water supplied to the camp?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; but not that will be further improved by the town having a filtration plant, the cost of which will be borne jointly by the Federal Government and by the municipality.

Mr. GARDNER. Do they take the water from above or below the Falls?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Niagara-on-the-Lake is at the mouth of the river, away below the Falls; about 12 miles below the Falls.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Some members of the commission had the advantage of seeing the filtration plant at the camp last week.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. That is the violet-ray plant. It does the work very well; but, of course, it is only a small affair.

Mr. POWELL. There is filtration in connection with that?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Oh, yes. That plant was designed by the engineer of the provincial board of health, and by him supplied to the military authorities.

Mr. TAWNEY. What is the standard of purity that your board of health follows?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. With regard to the sewage?

Mr. TAWNEY. Yes; standard of purification.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. We think that, for these international waters, there should be sedimentation and chlorination. We would be satisfied with that.

Mr. TAWNEY. The standard of purification is 90°, is it not?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. The standard as to purification for water----

Mr. TAWNEY. I mean for sewage. What is the standard for sewage?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. I think it is something like that laid down in the report.

Mr. TAWNEY. I wanted to find out if it corresponded with the standard established by the engineers in this report.

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. We would be satisfied with that; but we are not satisfied to confine it to two areas, as proposed in the report to-day.

Mr. TAWNEY. Two areas?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. That is the Detroit area and the Buffalo area. We think there are other points to which the investigation and purification should extend.

Mr. TAWNEY. It should not be limited to these two areas?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. No.

Mr. MIGNAULT. Would you kindly say at what points on the international waterways you consider these methods should be employed?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. I think at all the points indicated in the first progress report. In that report this commission says that the waters are polluted to the detriment of either one or the other side. We think the commission should stick to that, and carry along its work to include all of these areas.

Mr. MAGRATH. You are just reiterating the position you took at Washington?

Dr. MCCULLOUGH. Exactly, sir.

Mr. TAWNEY. Mr. Dallyn, you are the chief engineer of the Provincial Board of Health of Ontario, are you not?

Mr. DALLYN. Yes.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. A. DALLYN, OF TORONTO.

Mr. DALLYN. I am the provincial sanitary engineer, attached to the Provincial Board of Health of Ontario.

Mr. TAWNEY. Have you anything to add to what Dr. McCullough has said regarding the policy of the Province with respect to the purification of sewage and water for domestic and sanitary purposes in these boundary waters?

Mr. DALLYN. There is one matter, I think, that is worthy of further note, and that is as to whether it would be any advantage to either the municipalities, the Provinces, or the States, to be restricted, as they are in the report of the commission, to a specific method of meeting the commission’s requirements. There seems to be some doubt as to the proper way to interpret the reference--as to whether the commission is supposed to report some definite way in which a standard is to be attained or whether the two Governments meant that a prescribed standard could be reached at a reasonable expense through at least one method. Speaking as an engineer, not as the engineer of the Province, I would say we do not want to be hampered by any restriction in that respect on the part of the commission. We do need a standard of purity for sewage effluents. It is very necessary. We can hardly advance any further without one, but we do not want to be hampered by any particular way of arriving at any desired result. As to whether we will adopt two hours’ sedimentation and Imhoff tanks, or a different type of tank, and one, two, or four hours’ sedimentation is a question that requires study for each separate municipality. It will depend upon the character of the local sewage. And with the developments that are taking place in sewage disposal it is quite conceivable that half an hour’s sedimentation may be a practical limit, with some particular type of tank. We do not want to be tied down to two hours’ sedimentation. And then as to the method of sterilizing the effluent, your report indicates that bleaching powder, or liquid chlorine, will be the agents to effect this. Possibly we will not want to be hampered by a provision as to these. The experiments at Milwaukee indicate that a higher bacterial removal than you are calling for on these waters can be obtained by aeration of sewage by the activated sludge process. This method may not be practical at all centers; it will be practical at some.

That is just the position, I think, that most of us engineers will take with reference to your report upon remedial measures. We are very much in sympathy with the effort toward setting a standard of purification for these boundary waters. It is needed. Some of us feel that the only feasible and practical way of accomplishing the desired end is by standardizing the sewage effluent, by saying just what percentage of matter in suspension you want removed and what bacterial removal you want. I think the sewage treatment standards suggested by Prof. Phelps are practical ones and will occasion very little disputing.

Mr. MAGRATH. You do not want to be hindered from going as far as possible?

Mr. DALLYN. We certainly do not, sir. As to the construction and location of interceptors, of course, it is recognized by the engineers that the commission has had a very difficult problem, and that, with the time available, they have made a very valuable report as to the feasible way of handling the question, but there are a great many studies that will be required to be made before a municipality should be tied down to any particular route. Your proposal may show the natural route to utilize, but there might be difficulties in construction which can not be anticipated, without a great deal of survey work, by testing the substrata, finding what is below, whether sand, rock, quicksand, or clay, which might be overcome by deviating from the prescribed route, even though the excavation were heavier. Surveys can not be made in a short time. I feel also that our municipalities heretofore have not had appropriations with which to make investigation as to whether the routes suggested by you are practicable. The money that the commission has expended on this work, of course, is not adequate to make a very minute survey; and when you realize that in order to examine this report properly each of these municipalities has to spend from $10,000 to $20,000 you realize that it is quite a large undertaking for them to do at a very short notice. It is work that will require probably a year to investigate. I believe that is all I desire to say.

Mr. POWELL. You mean, by further investigation, having soundings and test pits along the route?

Mr. DALLYN. Oh, yes; and by cross sections of sewer, whether it is cheaper to use brick, or concrete, or vitrified block. There is a good deal of research work to be gone into before deciding upon work costing large sums of money.

Mr. POWELL. You speak of the purification of the effluent up to a certain standard. Would you have that standard fixed without regard to whether the effluent is flowing into a small or large stream? Can you fix it absolutely, without regard to the size of the stream, or the quantity of water that was in the stream to dilute it?

Mr. DALLYN. The sedimentation part of it should be fixed absolutely. I do not see any difficulty in doing that. There appears to be no practical or structural difficulty in requiring a certain percentage removal, or a given number of parts per million, of residual suspended matter. As to the number of bacteria to be removed, I think that could be more flexible, depending entirely upon the use the stream was to be put to, whether as a channel of commerce, or used largely as a pleasure resort, or whether it had no particular value in either of those spheres. We have in our Province a great deal of trouble by reason of townships complaining against the discharge or raw sewage, or even treated sewage, from some of the municipalities, saying it affects cattle. It is a disputed matter, but they certainly have the law on their side, and can compel the municipalities to purify to a much greater extent than some of you might think advisable.

Mr. POWELL. What is the growing consensus of opinion in respect of the purification of the effluent before allowing it to go into the stream?

Mr. DALLYN. Well, there seem to be two schools--the school of cranks, asking a high standard, and the conservation school, who want to use our natural resources to the utmost extent, and who sometimes overlook some of the changing factors which are not usually taken into consideration. I belong to the school of cranks, as I told you before, and I would like to see some better standard adopted than might immediately appear necessary, as in education we require to learn more than our vocation appears to demand when measured by practical methods of the conservation school.

Mr. POWELL. Great Britain seems to head the movement in purification of streams.

Mr. DALLYN. They have much smaller streams.

Mr. POWELL. It is a different problem, on account of the different quantity of water in the streams.

Mr. DALLYN. They lack the water-supply problem, and have to treat the sewage from the æsthetic point of view more than any other. I have in mind the ability of the stream to take up the putrescible matter, without giving out odors. In places where several centers must utilize the same stream there must needs be a more intense purification than where one center only enters it. With your problem the purification as to bacterial removal will have to be some function of the population in the congested centers. In other points, like Sarnia and Port Huron, the bacterial degree of pollution is not very heavy, not reaching the 500 standard Prof. Phelps recommends as being considered a contravention of the treaty, and the function of population does not amount to very much, so here you would have to treat it very much better than you apparently need. As a rule, when you use chemicals to disinfect sewage, you get no action at all until you remove about 60 per cent. You get a 60 per cent removal or you get nothing. It seems to be inert; and then you have to increase your quantities till you get up to 100 per cent removal, the last 10 per cent taking almost half as much again as the 90 per cent.

Mr. POWELL. Your idea is that under no circumstances should there be any discharge into the large or small stream without purification to the extent of sedimentation?

Mr. DALLYN. I believe our civilization has reached a point now where, as far as self-respect goes, we are required to separate the gross solids from the liquid matter before discharging them into any stream.

Mr. TAWNEY. Do you desire to be heard at this time, Mr. Sloman?

Mr. SLOMAN. Not necessarily at this time, but at such a time as is convenient to the commission.

Mr. TAWNEY. Do the representatives from any of the cities on the United States side wish to be heard before taking recess?

STATEMENT OF MR. MASON L. BROWN, RIVER ROUGE, MICH.