Chapter V: Part 5

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Eugene Frank Robel, please.

Mr. MOULDER. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?

Mr. ROBEL. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE FRANK ROBEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES

Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. ROBEL. E-u-g-e-n-e F-r-a-n-k R-o-b-e-l, Eugene Frank Robel.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Robel?

Mr. ROBEL. I was born in Kit Carson County, Colo., on a homestead.

Mr. WHEELER. In what year?

Mr. ROBEL. 1911.

Mr. WHEELER. You are represented by counsel. Will he please identify himself for the record?

Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you briefly advise the committee as to your education?

Mr. ROBEL. I have a high-school education and 2 years of university.

Mr. WHEELER. What university is that?

Mr. ROBEL. Moscow, Idaho--not Russia.

Mr. WHEELER. The University of Idaho?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the city of Seattle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I came here the latter part of 1937, I believe. I have been here since.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of the United States?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. In what branch?

Mr. ROBEL. United States Navy.

Mr. WHEELER. At what period of time were you in the United States Navy?

Mr. ROBEL. From 1933 to 1937.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir. I had a good-conduct discharge. I have the medal at home.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your employment record for the last 10 years?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I worked for an oil company for my first 4 years in Seattle, General Petroleum Corp.

Mr. WHEELER. That would be 1937 to 1941?

Mr. ROBEL. I think that is approximately the figures. Then I worked as a machinist at various jobs.

Mr. WHEELER. Specifically, what jobs have you held as a machinist?

Mr. ROBEL. Mostly outside machinist, but at times maintenance.

Mr. WHEELER. For what companies have you worked?

Mr. ROBEL. I have worked for Todd’s, Pacific Iron Foundry, Isaacson Iron Works, and Sahlberg Equipment Co.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you employed now?

Mr. ROBEL. Todd’s.

Mr. WHEELER. Todd Shipyards?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are they engaged in defense work or defense contracts?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I think so, indirectly. I don’t know how they get their contracts.

Mr. WHEELER. Do you have a security clearance?

Mr. ROBEL. No, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you been denied security clearance?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. No, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of any labor union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. On the advice of counsel, because to answer that might tend to incriminate me, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that.

Mr. VELDE. May I again say you are not under any compulsion to take refuge under the fifth amendment. It is a privilege.

The question is do you invoke the fifth amendment?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I do invoke it. I recognize I am not under compulsion, but I do invoke it because of the possibility that I might be incriminated.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, again let me say that I cannot possibly see how a membership in a labor union, admission that you are a member of a labor union, could possibly tend to incriminate a person, and I ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. MOULDER. Certainly your being a member of a labor union could not in any way tend to incriminate you. So you are directed to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. Well, membership in a particular labor union might incriminate me, and that is the reason I invoke the fifth amendment. One question leads to another.

Mr. MOULDER. It might lead to another question, but certainly if the other question would tend to incriminate you that is an entirely different matter. But the simple question as to whether or not you are a member of a legitimate labor union could in no way whatsoever tend to incriminate you.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I wouldn’t like to waive my rights under the fifth amendment by answering a previous question and then be forced to answer another one. That is the reason I took the position that I do.

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. VELDE. Do you belong to any labor union? That was the original question of counsel.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. Because that question might lead to the particular labor organization that I belong to, I will decline to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. If it does lead to that question, you can then invoke your privilege under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. It is my understanding legally that I may waive my rights by answering one of these questions, and I don’t wish to waive my right to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. You certainly were not waiving your rights when you stated a moment ago you were employed and where you were employed.

Now if you belong to some labor organization in connection with your employment there is nothing in that connection certainly that would tend to incriminate you, if you are employed or in legitimate employment.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. We are getting into complicated rights of waiver, and it is my understanding legally that I may refuse to answer.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you decline to answer under the fifth amendment?

Mr. ROBEL. Under the fifth amendment, yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment, as previously, and refuse to answer that.

Mr. MOULDER. I wish to say that for as long as I have served on this committee, a period of approximately 7 years, I have never heard anyone invoke the fifth amendment in response to a question as to whether or not he was a member of an A. F. of L. union.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted or have you been acquainted in the past with Mrs. Barbara Hartle.

Mr. ROBEL. For the same reasons as previously given, that I might tend to incriminate myself, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question.

Mr. WHEELER. Quoting her testimony before this committee, appearing on page 6094 of volume 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:

The Communist Party has always had a number of members in the
machinists Union. Some of them that I can remember are Glenn
Kinney, Ray Campbell, Frank Kerr, Gene Robel.

Was Mrs. Hartle advising the committee of the truth when she testified to that?

Mr. ROBEL. I must again invoke the fifth amendment for the previously stated reasons, and not admit or deny anything that any stool pigeon you may bring out says about me.

Mr. MOULDER. To whom do you refer as a stool pigeon?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I apologize for that statement, sir, and withdraw it.

Mr. MOULDER. Ordinarily a person referred to as a stool pigeon is one who is an accuser of some fact against someone else, and that person ordinarily retorts that they are a stool pigeon.

You do withdraw that reference.

Mr. WHEELER. Mrs. Hartle also testified--and this reference to her testimony can be found on page 6173 of volume 3 of the hearings:

Gene Robel, whom I have mentioned before, and Glenn Kinney were
also members of this industrial section.

Mr. Robel, the committee, in pursuance of its duties, is endeavoring to gain knowledge of the industrial section of the Communist Party in King County, and you, having been identified as a member of that section, is the reason you have been subpenaed here. We would like to get what information we can from you.

Now I would like to ask you:

Were you a member of the industrial section of the Communist Party?

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason previously stated, and refuse to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason and refuse to answer that question on the ground that I might incriminate myself.

Mr. WHEELER. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MOULDER. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I must, likewise, invoke the fifth amendment on that question, and refuse to answer, sir.

Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Velde, any questions?

Mr. VELDE. No questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Frank Kerr.

Mr. SYKES. Mr. Chairman, may I address the committee in respect to Mr. Kerr? There is a special problem involved with respect to Mr. Kerr.

Mr. MOULDER. Yes.

STATEMENT OF JAY G. SYKES

Mr. SYKES. I would like to hand to Mr. Wheeler a statement from Dr. Beattie, and ask that the committee consider Mr. Kerr’s physical condition, and if it sees fit to have him examined by a county doctor.

Mr. MOULDER. I notice that this is a letter written by Dr. John F. Beattie wherein he says that:

Mr. Frank Kerr has been under my care since January 12, 1954,
because of coronary artery disease.

The letter does not state the patient was hospitalized in connection with his examination. It does not state he is now in the hospital. It is not very specific as to his exact illness, as to whether or not he is capable of appearing here as a witness without endangering his health or life.

Mr. SYKES. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. There was serious doubt in my mind, without knowing anything about the specific details of his illness, to be absolutely sure whether or not he should be examined by a doctor here, and if the doctor here should rule that he can testify I would have no objection. I thought that I should protect Mr. Kerr.

Mr. MOULDER. This is very vague.

Mr. SYKES. That is correct.

Mr. MOULDER. And very indefinite. We will take this under consideration.

Counsel, will you call another witness?

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Harold Johnston.

Mr. MOULDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD JOHNSTON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY C. SYKES

Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his name, please?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Harold Johnston.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you represented by counsel? Will counsel identify himself for the record?

Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Johnston?

Mr. JOHNSTON. 1907, Yakima, Wash.

Mr. WHEELER. And what is your educational background?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Very little, less than grammar; didn’t finish grammar school.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the Seattle district?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By Seattle district you mean King County?

Mr. WHEELER. Yes; or the periphery.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t live in Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. I understand that.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I have been there 15 years.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your employment record?

Mr. JOHNSTON. For the last 10 years it’s been machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. And prior to that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Oh, odd jobs.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, I am.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, the subpena was served on me. First, they went to my home and my wife told them where I worked. And they went to the shop and were very courteous and called up my foreman, and I went out and they served me. And I am sure the committee has a record. And I don’t feel that it would do myself any good or the company to make it a part of the official record as to where I work. And I would like to not answer this question on that basis.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you decline to answer the question?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No. I definitely--I would like to be excused from answering it. I am not taking a position that I--but inasmuch as the deputy sheriff served me on the job, very courteous about it--met me at the gate and did not come in; told me he would be there--and I went out and looked him up--the committee knows where I work and I don’t feel it should become a record here of the company I work for.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you mean that answering the question as to where you are employed would reflect unfavorably upon the company which employs you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It is possible with publicity in the paper. No use to bring unnecessary publicity on it. I feel that the committee should take that into consideration. They know where I work. Their man served a subpena on me. I would not like to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, I feel I must insist that the witness answer the question as to where he is employed.

Throughout the history of this committee every witness who has appeared before the committee has been required to give his place of residence and his place of employment, or take refuge under the fifth amendment. It would be grossly unfair to all the witnesses who have previously appeared before this committee to allow you to escape answering that question.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Inasmuch as you already know----But I will answer then if you insist that I answer. I work at Lake Union Shipyards as of today--I don’t know about tomorrow.

Mr. WHEELER. What type of work do you do for the Lake Union Shipyards?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. Is that company engaged upon classified matters, security work for the United States Government?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, we do a lot of fishing boat work. We do work on all types of ships. It is a small yard. So it is small boats we have there. We don’t have large ones like other yards do. It is mostly small boats. There is some Government work there, naturally.

Mr. WHEELER. Do you have a security clearance?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I do not.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever requested one?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been denied one?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Because the answer is liable to have a tendency to incriminate me, at this time I invoke the fifth amendment and decline to answer that question.

Mr. MOULDER. In future replies along that line, do I understand you decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment for the reason that your answers might tend to incriminate you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That is right, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I will have to decline on the same reason, of the fifth amendment.

Mr. VELDE. I suggest that the Chair instruct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. MOULDER. The Chair directs you to answer the question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I respectfully decline to answer that on the grounds that it will tend to incriminate me, and ask the privilege.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. For the same reason, again I invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. You are directed to answer the question. I think it is a very unfair reflection upon that union, a legitimate, highly respected labor organization, and you should answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. There is a very particular problem on that in my case, and for that reason I don’t want to waive any rights under the fifth amendment. So I respectfully again have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you held any position in any union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. The same--the fifth amendment. I will have to invoke the fifth amendment again on that question.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that you at one time were business agent for the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Again I will have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. To refer to the testimony of Barbara Hartle, page 6094, part 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:

The business agent for several years of the machinists union
during this time was Harold Johnston, who was a member also of the
district committee of the Communist Party of which I was a member.

Was Mrs. Hartle correct in making that statement?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will have to again invoke the fifth amendment in that it is liable to incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you ever at any time a member of the district committee of the Communist Party of King County?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds it will possibly incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the district committee of the Communist Party of King County while business agent for the machinists union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment on the ground possibly to incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that there was a group of machinists of 8 or 10 who were members of the Communist Party within that union?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Again will I have to invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason.

Mr. MOULDER. Let me understand that question, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. I will repeat it.

Is it not a fact that there was a branch or cell of the Communist Party within the machinists union of which you were a member?

Mr. MOULDER. Can you specify the date?

Mr. WHEELER. The date, sir, runs during the war years and before, a continuing date.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you have any knowledge or information concerning the question propounded to you by Mr. Wheeler?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I didn’t get that complete. I am a little bit hard of hearing. Would you read it over again?

Mr. MOULDER. My question is, Do you have any knowledge or information concerning a Communist cell in the machinists union?

Mr. JOHNSTON. On the question of knowledge, it is liable to incriminate me. So again I have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Johnston, do you believe the Communist Party has a place in organized labor?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I couldn’t answer that yes or no. I am no expert. You have experts here, and I am not one. I am sorry I couldn’t give you an intelligent answer on that.

Mr. MOULDER. You can express your approval or disapproval of it. That is, in the form of the question you could express your approval or disapproval of it.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I just can’t; I can’t formulate any answer for that one way or the other. So I just couldn’t answer that question one way or the other. I can’t understand what exactly, what kind of an answer would have to be on that. I am not clear. My education is very little.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you mean to say you haven’t made up your mind about it?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I have never thought about it before.

Mr. MOULDER. Well, give it some thought now and answer the question as to whether or not you approve or disapprove of Communist Party domination of a labor union.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. On that one I will give it some thought, and before the committee leaves town I will give you a statement of my thinking on that.

Mr. MOULDER. All right; we will keep you under subpena and give you an opportunity to think that out and answer that question some time before we adjourn.

Proceed with the next question.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again, as in the past, have to invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason. The answer will incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Mr. VELDE. I have no questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is not excused.

You will be kept under subpena. You may attend the hearings and give the thought you said you would give to answering the question. When you are ready, notify Mr. Wheeler, and we will recall you to the stand.

Mr. Counsel, proceed with the next witness.

Mr. WHEELER. John Lawrie, Jr.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LAWRIE. I do.

I also want to say that I am here under protest and that all answers I give will be--I will invoke the first and fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. You haven’t been asked any questions yet.

Proceed, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. LAWRIE. I also have a written statement I would like to read before this committee.

Mr. MOULDER. We will file the statement. Hand it to Mr. Wheeler.

TESTIMONY OF JACK LAWRIE, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN

Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his name, please.

Mr. LAWRIE. My name is Jack Lawrie, Jr.

Mr. WHEELER. Will you spell the last name.

Mr. LAWRIE. L-a-w-r-i-e.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Lawrie?

Mr. LAWRIE. I was born in 1921 in the city of Casper, Wyo., July 12.

Mr. WHEELER. And what is your educational background?

Mr. LAWRIE. My education background is one of having graduated from grade school in the city of Seattle, and also Franklin High School in the city of Seattle.

And at this point I would like to raise a point of order.

Mr. MOULDER. I would like to ask you a question.

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. LAWRIE. I would still have a point of order here that is in the rules of procedure, and I think the committee would certainly be interested in their own rules of procedure. And I would like to read article No. 10, which deals----

Mr. MOULDER. Will you answer my question first?

Mr. LAWRIE. Deals with rights of a person affected by a hearing. I am certainly affected by the hearing.

Mr. MOULDER. I asked you a question if you are now or have ever been a member of the Communist Party. You may answer. Then you may have a point of order to raise when you answer to that question.

Mr. VELDE. If he answers the question instead of refusing to answer.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to have to decline to answer that question. And the reason I am declining to answer that question is that, due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to invoke the first amendment and also the fifth amendment.

I would like to be able to read the first and fifth amendments from the Constitution of the United States. I believe we have a good Constitution, and I am sure--or at least this committee claims they are interested in the Constitution, and upholding the rights.

So I would like to read from the Constitution of the United States at this time.

Mr. MOULDER. That won’t be necessary. We are familiar with the provisions of the Constitution. You have declined to answer on the first and fifth amendment.

Do you have any questions, Mr. Wheeler?

Mr. WHEELER. Would you relate briefly to the committee your employment record?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. You stated previously that you would give me a point of order if I answered the question.

Mr. MOULDER. You didn’t answer the question.

Mr. LAWRIE. I responded; I certainly responded to the question.

Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Wheeler, repeat your last question.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you relate briefly to the committee your employment record?

Mr. LAWRIE. That was not the question that was put to me.

Mr. WHEELER. It is the last question I asked.

Mr. MOULDER. This question is now being propounded to you.

Mr. LAWRIE. That was not the question that he asked me to answer, and that I would get my point of order.

Mr. VELDE. I think I can clear up the matter. The question he is referring to is the chairman’s question as to membership in the Communist Party at the present time or at any time in the past. And I think the Chair very well stated that if you answered the question instead of refusing to answer, invoking the first and fifth amendments, then you would be given an opportunity, as you put it, to make a point of order, which is not within your rights at all.

But now will you answer the question as to whether you were a member of the Communist Party or are now a member of the Communist Party? Let’s put it a different way. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. LAWRIE. I still would like to raise my point of order, and I think that I have that right, because, after all, this is your rules of procedure, and I think you would be interested in it, interested in that question. I didn’t write the rules of procedure. You gentlemen were the ones that helped to draw that up.

Mr. VELDE. The chairman gave you a great privilege by allowing you to answer the question “Yes” or “No,” and then by giving you the right to spout off about our rules and regulations, which we know very well. And we know about the Constitution.

Now it seems to me that any person who is interested in preserving the Constitution against encroachment from our prospective enemies would be willing to answer the question as to whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party or ever had been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. LAWRIE. As I stated before, I still think that, as you pointed out, you are interested in the Constitution. And I certainly think you should grant a witness here, after all, that is here at your own invitation--not at his own request--he certainly should be granted the right to raise a point of order, and if the committee feels that--in my opinion they should feel that a witness should be granted that right.

Mr. MOULDER. Let me say you are a witness who has been duly subpenaed here. You are under oath to answer certain questions. You have the privilege under the Constitution to decline to answer.

We are not going to be engaged with you in an argument concerning the Constitution or the rules of the committee.

Now certain questions will be propounded to you by Mr. Wheeler. You have the right as an American citizen to claim privilege under the Constitution, which I assume you are about to do. You are certainly not going to be permitted to enter into a soapbox argument with this committee.

Proceed, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you briefly relate your employment record for the last 10 years?

Mr. LAWRIE. I don’t see any basis for the honorable gentleman’s statement. I still think that I have the right to raise my point of order.

Mr. MOULDER. You are directed to answer the question propounded to you.

Mr. LAWRIE. I still think I have----

Mr. MOULDER. Ask the next question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. What was the question?

Mr. MOULDER. You haven’t answered it.

Mr. LAWRIE. I am asking the question.

Mr. MOULDER. You made a statement you were refusing to answer without giving the legal reason for refusing to answer. I am directing the examiner to proceed with the next question because you have refused to answer it without cause.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. I will have to state that I didn’t understand the previous question.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you understand the present question?

Mr. WHEELER. I think the record will show that my question was asked three times.

The question now is: Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?

Mr. LAWRIE. Well, with reference to the last two questions, I am----

Mr. MOULDER. We are not making reference to the last two questions. He has asked you a simple question now, and you are directed to answer.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. With reference to that question on Barbara Hartle and the previous question, I am going to invoke both the first and the fifth amendment which states that an individual is not compelled to be a witness against himself and shall not be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law.

Mr. MOULDER. The next question, please, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to answer that question in this way: During the time the committee was here--I believe it was last June--I read in the newspapers where a number of workers, men and women, lost their jobs.

Mr. MOULDER. You are not responding to the question. You must be responsive to the question and not take the question as an excuse for making a speech.

Now the question is: Where are you now employed? Do you decline to answer?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. Give him a reasonable time to decline or answer, and proceed with the next question.

Mr. LAWRIE. At this time I am going to request that I be allowed to talk to my attorney.

Mr. MOULDER. Very well. You will have an opportunity to confer with your attorney.

(Witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. WHEELER. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Witness?

Mr. LAWRIE. I am ready to proceed.

I would like to know if I can state my reasons for not answering this question.

Mr. MOULDER. Certainly, if it is not at great length in the form of a speech. Or, you may decline to answer claiming and invoking the first amendment, as you have.

Mr. LAWRIE. I don’t think that it will be long, but that is my opinion.

I state again, as I stated before, because of many workers losing their jobs because they were mentioned by this committee or in some subpena, I believe that I have the right to earn a living, and that this committee may be responsible for my losing my job to make a living. And I would like to decline from answering that question, but if the committee compels me to, I will.

Mr. VELDE. In that connection, have you ever made a living by being a member of the Communist Party? Has the Communist Party paid you anything for being a member of it?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to refuse to answer any questions that refer to communism--in this committee under the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to make the same statement as I made before, that, due to the fact that many working people were fired from their jobs at the last hearing, that I am liable to the same thing happening to me, lose my source of income and----

Mr. WHEELER. Were you fired from your job after the hearings here last June?

Mr. LAWRIE. No, not I, because I wasn’t here.

Mr. WHEELER. Where were you?

Mr. LAWRIE. I was working.

Mr. WHEELER. Where?

Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to have to speak to my counsel for a second.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. WHEELER. Were you on an underground assignment at that time for the Communist Party?

Mr. LAWRIE. I said I would like to speak to my counsel at the present time.

Mr. MOULDER. You may confer with your counsel.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. I am through conferring with counsel.

It seems to me that there are two questions. One is where I am working now. And the other is did I have anything to do with the Communist underground.

Mr. WHEELER. You weren’t responsive to the first question. We are now proceeding along with the interrogation to another question.

Mr. LAWRIE. Which question are you asking now?

Mr. WHEELER. I am asking if you were on an underground assignment for the Communist Party last June.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. Well, if it will help the committee any, as I said in the beginning, that any and all questions that I am going to have to--due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to have to invoke the first amendment and the fifth amendment, which have to do with communism or anything of that category.

Mr. WHEELER. Where were you last June? What part of the country? Where were you residing?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. WHEELER. Let the record show that he is conferring with counsel.

Mr. LAWRIE. I was in the State of Washington.

Mr. WHEELER. What part of Washington?

Mr. LAWRIE. I would say it was Everett.

Mr. WHEELER. Now, Mrs. Hartle identified you as organizational secretary of the central region of the Communist Party during some time in the last few years.

Mr. LAWRIE. Are you referring to a possible future Harvey Matusow, one that swears one thing one day and then, the next day, swears something else?

Mr. MOULDER. But you are refusing to deny or affirm the charges. You have the opportunity to show that Barbara Hartle, referred to by you as a so-called Matusow, was telling a falsehood. But you are refusing to do that. You refuse to say whether she is telling a falsehood or telling the truth.

Mr. LAWRIE. If it will help this committee any, as I stated before, that, due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to decline to answer that question under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed with the next question.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. The same answer.

Mr. WHEELER. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. I do want to make this observation. Here again we have a witness who follows the usual line of the Communist Party.

It is my belief that the witness, from his behavior on the witness stand, is presently engaged in Communist Party activities. I feel it is improbable that you will change your mind from the attitude you have taken.

I very much regret to say that I do feel you are engaged at the present time in activities which are harmful to the preservation of our constitutional form of government.

Mr. MOULDER. May I ask did you ever answer the question as to where you were now employed?

Was that question ever answered?

Mr. WHEELER. No.

Mr. MOULDER. Then I ask you that question. Where are you now employed?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. LAWRIE. I am employed at the present time by the Weyerhauser Timber Co.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Mr. MOULDER. Call the next witness.

Mr. WHEELER. Edward Brook Carmichael.

Mr. MOULDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD BROOK CARMICHAEL, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, SARAH H. LESSER

Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his full name, please?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Edward Brook Carmichael, Jr.

Mr. WHEELER. And where do you reside, Mr. Carmichael?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. At Monroe.

Mr. WHEELER. Monroe, Wash.?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Monroe, Wash.

Mr. WHEELER. Where were you born and when?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. In Washington.

Mr. WHEELER. What date?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. 1917.

Mr. MOULDER. Are you represented by counsel who appears now before the committee?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.

Mr. MOULDER. Would your attorney please state her name?

Miss LESSER. My name is Sarah H. Lesser, and I am a member of the Seattle bar.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Washington State Reformatory at Monroe.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your position there?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Supervisory cook.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you been so employed?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Four years.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you advise the committee of your educational background?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. High-school graduate.

Mr. WHEELER. Of what school, please?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Sultan Union High School.

Mr. WHEELER. How were you employed prior to your employment by the Washington State Reformatory at Monroe?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. By the privilege granted me under the fifth amendment, I decline to answer that question.

Mr. WHEELER. On all employment prior to the time you went to work with the State or for the State of Washington?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. For the same reason, I decline to answer.

Mr. WHEELER. In what year did you graduate from high school? (The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. 1935.

Mr. WHEELER. You are pleading the fifth amendment on the question of all employment from 1935 to 1951? Am I correct in that? (The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. That is correct.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you traveled outside of the United States?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons as stated before.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you served in the Armed Forces of the United States?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.

Mr. WHEELER. During what period of time?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. From April 1945, until August 1946.

Mr. WHEELER. Did you receive an honorable discharge?

Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you served in the armed forces of any country other than the United States?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I will decline to answer that for the same reasons as stated before.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it a fact that you were a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. The answer is the same as before.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be appropriate at this point to place in the record that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade has been cited by the Attorney General and by the House Committee on Un-American Activities and by various other committees as being subversive.

Mr. WHEELER. I hand you a passport application signed by E. Brook Carmichael, and it was subscribed to and sworn to on the 30th day of June 1937. Did you execute this application?

(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you look at the second page and advise the committee whether or not that is your signature? It is about halfway down.

(The witness examines the document and confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. WHEELER. You will notice a photograph on the second page. Is that a photograph you submitted for the application?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce this document as Carmichael Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. MOULDER. It is so admitted.

(The document above referred to, marked “Carmichael Exhibit No. 1,” for identification, is filed herewith and made a part of the record.)

Mr. MOULDER. Is that a picture of you on that document?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer on the grounds stated before.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been expelled from a union for Communist Party affiliations?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons.

Mr. WHEELER. Our records show that you were a member of the regional committee, Northwest Region, 12th District, Communist Party, as late as 1950. Is that correct?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer under the protection of the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. Also a member of the Sultan Section 51. Is that correct?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. WHEELER. Also that you have been a member of the Communist Party in this area, and a functionary on many occasions for the past 18 years. Is that correct?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. WHEELER. When you became employed by the State of Washington did you sign a loyalty oath of any kind?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Mr. MOULDER. Any questions, Mr. Velde?

Mr. VELDE. You have declined to answer whether or not you were a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Is that right?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I declined to answer for the same reason.

Mr. VELDE. Did you ever know Steve Nelson?

Steve Nelson, for your information, was a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and one of the Communist Party organizers from Alameda County, Calif.

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons.

Mr. VELDE. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.

Mr. VELDE. No further questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness will be excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Ed Carlson, please.

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, because I do have quite a headache, and it bothers me very badly, I wish to refrain from those snapping pictures.

Mr. MOULDER. The photographers will not take pictures while he is testifying.

Hold up your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARLSON. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EDWIN A. CARLSON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES

Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your full name.

Mr. CARLSON. Edwin A. Carlson.

Mr. WHEELER. I see you are represented by counsel. Will counsel identify himself for the record?

Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Carlson?

Mr. CARLSON. I was born in Grantsburg, Wis., 1909.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the State of Washington?

Mr. CARLSON. Since 1940.

Mr. WHEELER. And where did you live prior to 1940?

Mr. CARLSON. At Cloverton, Minn.

Mr. WHEELER. And what is your occupation?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. I am a machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you affiliated with any union, or are you a member of any union?

Mr. CARLSON. Because the answer to that question may tend to incriminate me, I invoke the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution, and refuse to answer it.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it not true that you are it member of the machinists union, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to explain that there are 3 branches of the machinists union in the city of Seattle.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Which one do you mean?

Mr. WHEELER. Any one of the three.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. I must invoke the fifth amendment to that question, and refuse to answer.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. I am unemployed at the present time.

Mr. WHEELER. I would like to read a telegram. This telegram was sent by one Ed Carlson, member of the machinists union, is so identified, and appears in part 11 (appendix), page 6748, of the hearings held here in June 1954. It is dated Seattle, Wash., June 19, 1954, and addressed to the Velde committee, Seattle.

DEAR SIRS: I see by the paper that Mrs. Hartle names one
Ed Carlson as a member of the Communist Party in the machinists
union. I presume I am the individual referred to. So that the
record is straight, let me insert this into the record for all to
see and hear.

It did not take me 20 years to decide that the Communist Party was
not the answer to the problems as I see them. In fact, I am very
nearly positive it was Mrs. Hartle who tried to persuade me to
reconsider my decision to discontinue my affiliations, which is
now approximately 5 years ago.

I do believe that my many friends and acquaintances are entitled
to this additional clarification of the facts.

Sincerely,

ED CARLSON,
_Member of Machinists Union_.

Did you send that telegram, Mr. Carlson?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Will you specify the date that you are referring to?

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of the Communist Party today. But in regards to whether I ever have been one, the answer may tend to incriminate me, and I refuse to answer.

Mr. MOULDER. In other words, during the past 5 years, as I understand the telegram, you have not been a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. MOULDER. In other words, 5 years ago you disassociated yourself from any connection with the Communist Party movement. Is that so? Approximately 5 years ago?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. It all amounts to the same thing since you answered the question by simply saying that during the last 5 years you have not been associated with the Communist Party, as I understand it from your attempt or your endeavor to clear yourself here. And that I would certainly like to see you do.

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, the question of association is so very broad that I feel that you should make that question more specific.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. By disassociating yourself it is not meant by that if you happened to be around someone who might have been a member of the Communist Party. I mean did you yourself, in your belief, your philosophy, your way of thinking and your way of activities, disassociate yourself from the Communist Party approximately 5 years ago? Is that so?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I never have--I did not participate knowingly with the Communist Party during that period.

Mr. MOULDER. Are you now referring to the past 5 years?

Mr. CARLSON. That is correct.

Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:

Is your attitude and opinion concerning Communist Party activities now different than 5 years ago?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I can’t specifically state what my opinions are. I just am in utter confusion.

Mr. MOULDER. It is not the purpose of this committee, it is not our intention, Mr. Velde and I or Mr. Wheeler, to confuse anyone or to commit any injustice toward you.

I am impressed by your appearance and your endeavor to try to come forward and make a clean statement or explanation. And I think it would be to your benefit for you to do it for your own interest. I am sure it would be.

You infer that maybe at one time you may have had some connection with Communist Party activities. You probably have some reasonable explanation for which you maybe couldn’t or wouldn’t necessarily be criticized or condemned.

Mr. CARLSON. It is very hard for me to understand what you are saying. Some of the words I do not catch.

Would you speak a little louder, please?

Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:

Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. No.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you now believe in the Communist Party philosophy or its objectives?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, in the light of all the testimony that I have read in the papers and heard, I really don’t know what it is about, I don’t really know what they do stand for. I am confused in my own mind.

Mr. VELDE. It is not the purpose or intention of this committee, and I can very well speak for all of the members of the committee, to get you into a position where you are in contempt of Congress. I concur with Mr. Moulder in his statement a few moments ago. I think that you do have a problem. I think that you are confused about the situation. Nevertheless, you do have, in my opinion, some information which would be valuable to this committee. At the same time you could clear your own conscience, so to speak, if you would give us the benefit of the information you have regarding your Communist Party connections.

So I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be excused and be given a chance to consult with his attorney and think the proposition over, and possibly he may decide to return and give us the information which we believe he has.

Mr. MOULDER. I think that is a splendid suggestion Mr. Velde has made.

You will be excused until tomorrow morning. You think this over, and in the meantime, if you wish to talk to any of the investigators or counsel or any member of the committee, we would be happy to talk to you. Give it serious thought.

You will be excused until 9 o’clock in the morning.

(Whereupon the witness was excused until 9 o’clock the following morning.)

Mr. MOULDER. Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Edmund Kroener.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KROENER. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EDMUND D. KROENER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, C. CALVERT KNUDSEN

Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. KROENER. Edmund D. Kroener.

Mr. WHEELER. Will counsel for the witness identify himself for the record?

Mr. KNUDSEN. C. Calvert Knudsen. And may the record show that I am, Mr. Chairman, if you please, the treasurer of the Seattle Bar Association, and, at the request of that association and at the request of this gentleman, I am undertaking to represent him at this hearing inasmuch as he is financially unable to obtain other counsel.

Mr. MOULDER. The record will so reflect the statement made by counsel.

Mr. VELDE. May I make this remark?

In connection with our hearings last June it was mentioned several times that the mere fact that an attorney represents a witness who might be a fifth amendment witness should be no reflection whatsoever on the attorney. And I am sure that is true of all the attorneys who have appeared here today.

Mr. MOULDER. It is your duty to be here in the capacity in which you appear here today, in the honor of your own profession.

Mr. KNUDSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WHEELER. Will you spell your name, please?

Mr. KROENER. K-r-o-e-n-e-r.

Mr. WHEELER. Do you presently reside in Seattle?

Mr. KROENER. Yes.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your occupation, Mr. Kroener?

Mr. KROENER. Work as a machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?

Mr. KROENER. No; I am not.

Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. KROENER. I wish to invoke, on answering that, the fifth amendment, on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?