Chapter III: Part 3

Can you state what particular construction those roads are of?—They are laid in a form sufficiently round to wash themselves, if there is a shower of rain that comes upon them. They are not very high; and their excellence consists in the smallness of the convexity. They are in the best form I have ever seen roads made.

Mr. _William Horne_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the Golden Cross Inn, Charing Cross?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of many mail and stage coaches?—I am.

Your attention of course has been directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—It has.

Can you inform the Committee in what state the roads generally are, in point of goodness?—I think in general they have been better for the last seven years than formerly, though they are now bad. They are generally bad, and might be very much improved.

Can you state to the Committee any particular instances of improvement that have taken place within your own knowledge?—Yes; one between London and Hounslow, which must be known to every body to have been very bad; that road has been made good, which was extremely bad before.

Do you consider that the application of the materials upon that road is at present good?—Yes. It is the better construction of the road, together with the different materials from what they used formerly, which have been the means of making that road better. They have brought chalk and flints from Kent by the canal, and have got them at as small an expense as gravel; and these have formed a hard well-bound road, which was formerly bad.

Upon what other roads do your coaches travel?—I will mention one which is precisely the contrary, the Uxbridge road.

Gravel is usually employed on that?—Solely gravely and the road is very flat. It is made lower than the fields, which draws the water upon it, and therefore it cannot be drawn off from it. That is the chief cause of the road being so bad.

Is it not the practice upon that road to pile up the scrapings or drift by the side of the road?—It is.

Within your experience, do you consider that the goodness of the roads is at all in proportion to the local advantages or disadvantages; or have you found that the skill and experience of the surveyors employed upon them have effected particular improvements?—They chiefly depend upon having good surveyors. The Dover road will show that more than any other road I know of. I can remember that within these seven years, what was then called “The Sun in the Sands” has been made a very good road. That road was all loose and sandy: they have drained it, and it is now a very good road.

Can you state under whose superintendence that road is placed?—Mr. Collis’s. He is now employed on the Brighton road, effecting the same sort of improvement; reducing hills, and making the road good.

Do you find that the roads on which your coaches travel, are much worse in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts?—I find them worse for coaches near London, but it may be attributed partly to the greater quantity of travelling near London to what there is in the country.

Are the horses that you employ in the stages near London of superior value to those that are employed at a greater distance?—It differs according to the carriage. I think with the stage coaches, the horses out of London are considerably more in value than those employed at a greater distance from London; and as to mail coaches, _vice versa_. In the country, the day stock of the coaches is very good, but in the night they work them very badly.

Do you find that your horses that are employed in the stages near London, wear out sooner than those at a greater distance?—Much sooner, I should think. I employ about four hundred horses myself, and I am sure I buy one hundred and fifty a year to support the number, and keep the stock in order. I consider that my stock wears out fully in three years.

How much longer on an average, will horses last at a distance from town?—I should think double the time: for these reasons; first, the work is lighter, and next, the food is better; besides which, the lodging of them is better; the stables are airy and more healthy; they have not so often diseases in the country as we have in London.

Are you in the habit of working coaches to any great distance from London?—I work them half way to Bristol; with Mr. Pickwick of Bath, I work to Newbury.

Do you know whether the horses that are employed still lower down upon that road, are considered to have lighter or heavier work?—I should not keep larger horses for that work myself; I should keep short-legged horses, because of the hills.

Which are of less value?—Yes.

Speaking generally, if the same skill and management that you have mentioned in particular districts were generally employed, do you not think that the roads of England and Wales might be put into a very perfect state of repair?—I think, that with better direction as to management, they might be put into a much better state of repair, at the same cost, than they now are. There is a road, called the North-east Road (the way that the Edinburgh mail comes,) which is much improved lately, and without any great expense.

Under whose management is that road?—Of a Mr. Clay. It has been done by rolling the road, and breaking the gravel to a certain size, not putting it on too large or too small; and taking care to turn the road well. If the road is not turned well, it never will be good.

This roller is a late invention, is it not?—It is. It impresses the gravel, or whatever the material is, into the ground, before the road is scraped; then they proceed to scrape it and take the slush off; this rolls down the ruts as well.

And from your experience, you have every reason to believe that it is of great advantage to the road?—I have worked the Tyburn road, and the White Cross roads, which were as bad as the Tyburn till this practice has been introduced.

Do you know any thing of the Reading road, which Mr. MᶜAdam has had the superintendence of?—It is a very fair road; it is the best piece of road in that direction.

Can you inform the Committee the weights you are accustomed to carry upon the different descriptions of carriages, mail coaches, post coaches, and heavy coaches?—The post coach loaded is 38 cwt. weight; it is never more than two tons. The mail coach also is not more than two tons, I should think. As to heavy coaches, I only work two of that description out of the 40 coaches that are in my own yard; they are so little used, that they don’t generally weigh more than the post coach; they don’t carry so much luggage.

What is the weight of the heavy coach?—Not more than the post, because they don’t carry so much luggage as some of the post coaches. I reckon 12 passengers one ton, coach one ton, and luggage half a ton.

Have you known of any accidents to your coaches arising from the great convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I have had accidents, and they have sometimes been attributed to the horses shying, and plunging the coach on one side, so as to cause it to overturn, from the great roundness of the road.

Mr. _John Eames_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the White Horse, Fetter-lane, and are the proprietor of the Angel Inn, St. Clement’s?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of several mail and stage coaches?—Yes.

How many horses do you keep?—About three hundred.

What are the principal roads you are in the habit of working from London?—We work the Canterbury, the Cambridge, the Dover, the Norwich, the Portsmouth, and some others.

Do you find that you sustain much inconvenience from the state of the roads over which you travel?—Yes. As to inconvenience, I find much more in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts.

How long do you find that your horses upon an average last, that are employed in the first stages from London?—My horses, upon an average, don’t last above three years in the fast coaches.

Including the mails?—Yes.

And those horses in the neighbourhood of London, are of greater value than those employed at a distance?—They are.

Upon an average, how long do the horses last that are employed in the more distant parts?—They last as long again.

Do you attribute that in a great degree to the badness of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I attribute it to the distress the horse receives from the badness of the roads near town; but I attribute it also in a great degree to the meeting of different carriages, and crossing the road, which makes it more laborious to the horse, though he does not appear to go so many miles.

Do you not consider that that particular evil is occasioned in a great degree by the convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, the materials being generally heaped up in the middle?—I do; it “tears their hearts out,” as the coachmen express it. The roads are inconvenient from the quantity and quality of the gravel heaped in the middle.

Have you known any instances in which a different system has been pursued, and the roads greatly improved, in the neighbourhood of London?—The road from London to Cranford Bridge has been improved of late, and from London to Hounslow more particularly, in consequence of the pavement in the crown of the road, which has done away with the gravelling, or shingle rather.

Is not the gravel upon that road generally employed without sifting or washing?—It is half clay.

Have you known instances in which this inconvenience has been remedied by superior skill and experience in the surveyor of the roads?—Yes; in the same line of road that Mr. Horne referred to; in the Kent road particularly.

If that same skill was employed in the application of materials to the other roads, do you not think that they might be brought generally to the same state of improvement?—I have no doubt of it; there is no question about it. The Surrey road has been improved on the same principle.

What do you call the Surrey road?—From London to Guildford.

Do you know under whose management that is?—I don’t know now; a person named Baker had the management of it.

Was it under him it was improved?—Yes.

How many miles of road does that consist of?—Thirty miles.

And it is very much improved?—Yes.

By what means?—The materials are harder than the gravel. He brings the rag flints and breaks them, but in a different manner from other parts of the road. He has improved it so much, that it does not look the same road at all; I can go now sixteen miles better than I could twelve before.

Do you consider that the horses which travel these roads that have been improved, last longer than formerly?—Yes.

You need hardly be asked whether these improvements enable you to carry passengers at a lower rate than before?—Of course; it is the expense of the stock that is the great thing.

If the roads were generally improved, travelling would be cheaper?—Of course.

_Veneris, 21º die Maii, 1819._

Mr. _George Botham_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the George Inn, at Newbury?—I do.

Are you a proprietor of mail and other coaches?—Yes.

To a considerable extent?—Yes, and have been for some time.

How many horses have you?—More than a hundred.

Your attention has of course been directed to the state of the road between Newbury and London?—Yes.

State any improvement that has taken place in that road?—There is a very great improvement between Marlborough and Twyford.

Under whose directions?—Mr. MᶜAdam.

In what state was that road before?—It was in a very bad state, and I mentioned it to lord Aylesbury, and he applied to get the materials, and offered to give up any quantity of his land for the widening of the road, which he has done.

In point of fact the road has been widened?—Much widened and much improved.

Can you state what improvement it would make in the draught of the carriages?—Not exactly, but I consider it a very great one.

You cannot state any proportion of the labour of horses in drawing a carriage?—No, not particularly so; I did not expect to be asked, but it is not very material.

In what state is that road, compared with the road from Twyford to London?—I consider the road from Twyford to be a little mended, but it is very bad at present.

Do you think by the adoption of the same system the road from Twyford to London might be equally improved?—I have no doubt of it; the materials are better.

Which of course would make a great difference in the ease of working your coaches?—Yes; I should think we could perform the journey from Newbury to Reading in a quarter of an hour’s less time, which is seventeen miles.

Have you, as proprietor of mail coaches, had occasion to express any dissatisfaction to the Post Office, with regard to your present contracts?—Certainly, with very great reason.

Do you think that you should be enabled to continue those contracts at the present rate, if the roads are not put into a better state of repair?—That entirely depends upon the price of corn; we were very great sufferers till lately, that corn has fallen so much: or else my brother, as well as myself, intended to quit the mails, because we were losing a great deal of money.

Do you consider that the system of repairing roads, which has been adopted in that part of the road which you have described as under the superintendance of Mr. MᶜAdam, is superior to any other that you have seen adopted?—Certainly, I am sure it is, there is no question about it.

And that its general adoption would be highly beneficial to the coach proprietors, and to the public?—Most certainly.

Mr. _Fromont_ being prevented by an accident from attending the Committee, it was resolved that the following Letter be entered on the Minutes:

Thatcham, May 1819.

Gentlemen,

I think it a duty incumbent on me to present to you my opinion
respecting Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan of repairing and improving turnpike
roads. From what I have noticed of his improvement on different parts
of the Bath road, on which I am at present working different coaches a
distance of above 500 miles per day, I think his plan altogether, _i.
e._ first of screening and cleansing the gravel, and breaking the
stones; secondly, of preparing the road to receive it; and thirdly, of
laying it on the road, is the best and safest method I have ever seen
in the course of fifty years experience in the coach and waggon
business. I have formerly had several accidents happen from the gravel
being laid too thick and very high in the middle of the road; and have
killed some hundreds of horses (extra) in pulling through it; and I
think I may venture to say, that if Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan was adopted
generally throughout the kingdom, in the course of a short time the
public would be enabled to travel with much greater ease and safety,
and at nearly one-third less of expense; at all events I am convinced
that nearly one-third less labour is required to work a fast coach
over part of the road between Reading and London, where MᶜAdam’s plan
has been adopted, than there is over other parts of the road where
they still continue the old plan In short, my opinion may be given in
a few words; his plan, if adopted generally, will cause the traveller
to find easier, safer, and more expeditious travelling, and the owners
of horses a diminution of nearly one-third of the original labour.

I am, Gentlemen, with respect,
Your most obedient servant,
_Edward Fromont_.

_Jovis, 4º die Martii, 1819._

_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esq. called in; and Examined.

I believe, Mr. MᶜAdam, you reside at Bristol?—Yes, I do.

And have under your care a considerable district of the turnpike roads in that neighbourhood?—Yes, about one hundred and eighty miles of road in that neighbourhood.

How long has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the public roads of the kingdom generally, and the means of their improvement?—About twenty-five years.

Are you a professional civil engineer?—No.

Be pleased to state to the Committee the general state of the turnpike roads at the time you first directed your attention to them, about twenty years ago?—I think the state of the roads twenty years ago, was worse generally than at present, and in particular places much worse. If the Committee would indulge me, I would mention what first led me to these considerations. On my first arriving from America in the year 1783, at the time the roads were making in Scotland (their Turnpike Acts being in operation about twenty years at that time,) very many of their roads were unmade. I was then appointed a commissioner of the roads, and had occasion in that capacity to see a great deal of road-work.

Where?—In Scotland. This first led me to inquire into the general method of road-making, and the expense of it. Since that period, I have been mostly in Bristol, where I was also appointed a commissioner of the roads; the very defective state of which could not fail to attract my attention. I was induced to offer myself to the commissioners, to take charge of the roads as a surveyor, because I found it impossible for any individual commissioner to get the roads put into a situation of being, mended with any prospect of success; and no individual could incur the expense of making experiments on a great scale. The roads of Bristol were accordingly put under my direction in the month of January 1816.

That was when you were appointed surveyor?—Yes, I have travelled at various times, during the lost twenty years, to ascertain which are the best roads, and which the best means of road-making over the whole kingdom, from Inverness in Scotland to the Land’s End in Cornwall. I have obtained all the information that an unauthorized person could expect to receive. In the course of travelling through the country, I have generally found the roads in a very defective state, certainly much worse in particular parts of the country than in others; and in particular counties I have found some parts of the roads much worse than in other parts of the same county. The defects of the roads appear to me to proceed from various causes, but principally from the large use of a mixture of clay and chalk and other matters, that imbibe water, and are affected by frost. Such roads become loose in wet weather, so as to allow the wheels of carriages to displace the materials, and thereby occasion the roads to be rough and rutty. More pains, and much more expense, have been bestowed on the roads of late years, but without, in my opinion, producing any adequate effect, from want of skill in the executive department. I consider the roads in South Wales, in Monmouthshire, in Cornwall, in Devonshire, in Herefordshire, in part of Hampshire, in part of Oxfordshire, and some part of Gloucestershire, are managed with the least skill, and consequently, at the heaviest expense. The paved roads of Lancashire appear to be very unprofitable, and very expensive. I shall mention to the Committee a few roads which I think in a better condition and under a better system of management. Eastward of Bridgewater in Somersetshire, near Kendal in Westmoreland, and near North Allerton, in Yorkshire, the roads appear to be in a much better state than in other parts of the kingdom; and there is a striking difference in the moderate rate of their tolls, which I have always found most moderate where the roads are best managed. I consider the reason of the roads in those parts being in a better condition than in other places, is from greater skill and attention being paid to the preparation of the materials and the manner laying them on the roads.

Does the superiority of roads, in certain places that you have mentioned, arise from their better materials in those neighbourhoods?—No; the same material is found in many parts of the kingdom with much worse roads.

Then, in general, you impute the badness of the roads solely to the applying of the materials?—Yes.

And also to the formation of the roads?—That I consider as part of the application of the materials.

Has there prevailed of late years a general spirit of improvement, in different parts of the country, with regard to the roads?—I think there has, and particularly in the west country.

What instances have come within your own knowledge?—The roads immediately round the city of Bristol to the extent of 148 miles, round Bath to the extent of 49 miles, between Cirencester and Bath to the amount of 32 miles, the roads of nine trusts in the eastern parts of Sussex amounting to 97 miles, at Epsom in Surrey amounting to 20 miles, at Reading in Berkshire six miles, amounting in the whole to 352 miles, have been put into a very good condition; in addition to which, there are now under repair, five trusts in Wiltshire and Berkshire, amounting to 108 miles; six trusts in Middlesex, Cambridge and Huntingdon, amounting to 91 miles; six trusts in Devonshire, Buckinghamshire and Glamorganshire, amounting to 129 miles; making a total of 328 miles under repair. These are roads that have been mended, or are now mending, under directions which I have given, or which have been given by my family.

You are not particularly acquainted with the improvements taking place under the management of other persons?—Not particularly; but I have some knowledge of some of them from circumstances.

You have not taken under observation the great road to Holyhead?—No; that I understand is a new road. You asked me with respect to the spirit of improvement; I would wish to explain in what way I think that is proceeding. I have been sent for and consulted by 34 different sets of commissioners, and as many different trusts, and in 13 counties, to the extent of 637 miles, all of whom have been making improvements, and I have had many sub-surveyors instructed and sent to various parts of the country, at the request of commissioners; many surveyors also in the neighbourhood where improvements are making, have availed themselves of the opportunity of having instruction. Thus the surveyors of Southampton and that neighbourhood have attended to what is doing at Salisbury and Wilton; thus the surveyors at Kingston and Guildford have profited by the improvements at Epsom in Surrey.

On which road are the 20 miles that you mentioned at Epsom?—From Epsom to Tooting, and then across the country to Kingston. Several surveyors near Reading in Berkshire have imitated, with considerable success, the improvements on that road. Mr. Clay, who has contracted for the repair of the Kingsland road near London, engaged a young man who was in my office at Bristol, Mr. Marshal, whom he sent afterwards to Leeds in Yorkshire. It has been my study to give every facility to spread information.

Has your attention been directed to the roads in the neighbourhood of London; and can you state to the Committee whether any corresponding improvement has taken place in this district?—I think less improvement has taken place round London than in the country. On the new Surrey roads the example set by the pieces of road made at Blackfriars and Westminster bridges has induced a little amendment; the materials have been more carefully broken, and they have continued to use the hammers, rakes and other tools which were recommended to them; but the general improvement is unimportant: and I am not aware that any alteration has taken place in the system of expenditure, and the mode of being supplied with materials, or in employing more competent surveyors.

From the experience you have had in the improvements that have taken place, have you found that these have been attended generally, with an increase or diminution of expense?—In general the expense must be diminished by the improvements. The repairs of one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol, and many expensive permanent improvements and alterations, have been made in the last three years, during which a floating debt of upwards 1,400_l._ has been paid off, a considerable reduction of the principal debt has been made, and a balance of a considerable amount is remaining in the hands of the treasurer, applicable to further alterations, or to the payment of part of the debt, at the discretion of the commissioners.

Can you state what proportion that is?—I think the first year, 723_l._

What is the amount of the whole debt?—The whole debt is 43,000_l._ I said a considerable reduction of the principal debt had been made, I did not use the word proportion. I can mention that the balance in the hands of the treasurer, on the last settlement of the account amounted to 2,790_l._ 0_s._ 4_d._ in the Bristol district, beside a considerable diminution of the debt, and beside alterations and improvements.

That applies only to one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol?—Only to the one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol. The Bristol district has been under one trust for twenty years, and in that period the debt has increased to 43,000_l._

You will be kind enough to furnish the Committee, with a statement similar to that which was supplied by you to the Holyhead Committee, down to the latest period?—I will. Bristol is the only district for which I can have precise figures, I have not had the finances in my own management or direction with respect to the others. As I have only advised with respect to them, I cannot give you the items; and I must say, that my information with respect to other roads, must be much more general than with respect to this road. In Sussex, the roads in nine trusts have been mended with a considerable diminution of the former expense, and the thanks of a general meeting of the trustees of the Lewes trusts were unanimously voted to Lord Chichester “for the introduction of this system, by which the roads had been so much improved, and the country was likely to derive so much benefit.”

Have you found that a similar diminution of expense has taken place where the materials have been bad, as where they have been good?—Yes, I have.

Do you find your mode of management equally applicable where the materials are bad as where they are good, and that the same proportionable benefit arises?—I am afraid gentlemen suppose that I have some particular mode of management, which is certainly not the case, nor can by any means be the case; and in every road I have been obliged to alter the mode of management, according to the situation of the roads, and sometimes according to the finances. At Epsom in Surrey, the roads have been put into a good repair, at an expense considerably under the former annual expenditure, by which the trustees have been enabled to lower their tolls on agricultural carriages. The road between Reading and Twyford, in Berkshire, has been made solid and smooth since the beginning of July last, by persons under my directions, at an expense, including the surveyor’s salary, not exceeding fifteen pounds per week; and their former expenditure, exclusive of the surveyor’s salary, was twenty-two pounds per week. A great part of the road in the neighbourhood of Bath, which was formed upon the plan laid down in my report to the commissioners, and with the greatest success, is made with freestone, which was always supposed impossible to make a good road of; but it will make a good road. It certainly does not last so long as one made of better materials; but it is equally good whilst it does last. One of the roads out of Bristol towards Old Down has been made good, where it was a received opinion, that from the nature of the materials the road could not be made so; and the commissioners would not consent to my beginning it until the road was threatened to be indicted. It was put into my hands in October 1816, and at the Christmas following I was able to report that it was one of the best roads in England for a distance of eleven miles, at the expense of first outlay only of 600_l._ and it has continued so until the present.

Please to inform the Committee, what are the means, in your opinion, the most eligible to be adopted for the amelioration of the roads throughout the kingdom?—That question, I think, divides itself into two branches: The operative part, in making the roads, and the care of the finances, and the mode of their expenditure. I should imagine the operative part of preparing roads cannot be effected without procuring a more skilful set of sub-surveyors; young men, brought up to agriculture and labour must be sought, and regularly instructed. It is a business that cannot be taught from books, but can only be acquired by a laborious practice of several months, and actual work upon roads, under skilful road-makers. Young men who have been accustomed to agricultural labour are fittest to be made road-surveyors, as their occupations have given them opportunities of being acquainted with the value of labour both of men and horses. But I should greatly mislead the Committee if I did not inform them, that skill in the operative part of road-making cannot alone produce a reformation of the multitude of abuses that are practised in almost every part of the country, in the management of roads and road funds. These abuses can only be put down by officers in the situation of gentlemen, who must enjoy the confidence, and have the support of commissioners, and who must exercise a constant and vigilant inspection over the expenditure made by the sub-surveyors. They must be enabled to certify to the commissioners that the public money is judiciously and usefully, as well as honestly expended; without this control and superintendence an end cannot be put to the waste of the public money, and all the various modes that are injurious to the public interest, the amount of which would appear incredible, could it be ascertained; but which, I conscientiously believe, amount to one-eighth of the road revenue of the kingdom at large, and to a much greater proportion near London.

Do you mean the frauds amount to one-eighth?—No, not direct frauds, I call it mis-application; it must not be concealed, that the temptations with which, even a superior officer will be assailed, the facility of yielding to them, and the impunity with which transgression may be committed, require great delicacy in the selection of persons to fill the situation; and encouragement to make this a profession must be in proportion to the quality of the person required.

Do you not consider one of these mis-applications to be the injudicious use of the labour of horses, instead of that of men, women and children?—I do consider that to be a great mis-application of the labour of horses. I am afraid that gentlemen may understand, from what I said, that frauds are committed to the amount of one-eighth, but I meant no such thing; I meant the loss arising from mis-application generally. I have in general found a great deal more materials put upon the road than are necessary, and I am of opinion that is one of the chief causes of the waste of the public money.

Do you think the loss arises, in most instances, from mistake, or from any abuse in regard to the power and patronage which the situation confers?—I think it proceeds from mistakes and ignorance mostly.

Please to explain to the Committee in what way you think the labour of men, women and children, may be substituted for that of horses?—I have generally found that a much greater quantity of materials have been carted to the roads than are necessary, and therefore the increase of horse-labour has been beyond any useful purpose, and that generally the roads of the kingdom contain a supply of materials sufficient for their use for several years, if they were properly lifted and applied; this is to be entirely done by men, women, and children, men lifting the roads, and women and boys, and men past labour, breaking the stones which were lifted up.

By lifting the road, you mean turning it up with the pickaxe?—Yes; that I consider as man’s work; taking up the materials and breaking stones, I consider the work of women and children, and which indeed ought to have been done before those materials had been laid down.

How deep do you go in lifting the roads?—That depends upon circumstances, but I have generally gone four inches deep; I take the materials up four inches deep, and having broken the larger pieces, I put them back again.

Please to explain to the Committee the mode of breaking the stones so as to admit of the labour of men, women and children?—When the stones of an old road have been taken up, they are generally found of the size that women and boys can break them with small hammers, and therefore I would propose to employ these people to break those stones always before they are laid back in the roads.

Is it your plan for those people to break those stones standing, or in a sitting posture?—Always in a sitting posture: because I have found that persons sitting will break more stones than persons standing, and with a lighter hammer.

Does that apply to all materials?—To all materials universally.

Does the plan which you have mentioned of breaking up the roads, apply to gravel roads, or only to those roads composed of hard stones?—In gravel roads and in some other roads it would be impossible to break them up to any advantage; and in several places which I will explain, I should think it unprofitable to lift a road at all. There is a discretion of the surveyor, or the person who has the execution of the work, which must be exercised. I did not order the road in the neighbourhood of Reading to be lifted, but I directed wherever a large piece of flint was seen, it should be taken up, broken, and put down again; and I directed the road to be made perfectly clean—I am speaking of a gravel road now—and I directed that additional gravel should be prepared in the pits by screening the dirt very clean from it, breaking all the large pieces and bringing that upon the road in very light coats not exceeding two inches at a time; and when those coats were settled, to bring others of very clean materials upon the road, until it settled into a solid smooth hard surface, and which the coachmen in their mode of expression, say “runs true.” The wheel runs hard upon it; it runs upon the nail.

Uninfluenced by the state of the weather?—Perfectly so.

In your experience, have you observed that on gravel roads the materials are generally very unskilfully and improperly applied?—Generally so. I think always I may say, for I think I never saw them skilfully or properly managed.

Have you adopted the mode of washing the gravel?—No; I think that is a more expensive process than is necessary.

Do you think it more expensive than screening?—A great deal more so, and I have another reason for objecting to that, with respect to the gravel near London; the loam adheres so strongly to it that no ordinary washing will clean it. The loam is detached from the gravel by the united effort of the water on the road, and the travelling, by which the roads near London become so excessively dirty; but it would be impossible to detach the loam from the gravel in the pits, by throwing water on it; I have tried the experiment and know the fact.

To what particular practice do you allude, when you inform the Committee that gravel is unskilfully applied to the roads in general?—I see that on gravel roads, the gravel is put on after being very imperfectly sifted, and the huge pieces not being broken, and the gravel is laid on the middle of the road and allowed to find its own may to the sides. Now the principle of road-making I think the most valuable, is to put broken stone upon a road, which shall unite by its own angles, so as to form a solid hard surface, and therefore it follows, that when that material is laid upon the road, it must remain in the situation in which it is placed without ever being moved again; and what I find fault with putting quantities of gravel on the road is, that before it becomes useful it must move its situation and be in constant motion.

In order to attain the advantage you allude to in the angular materials, I take it for granted, it is your plan to have the larger pieces of gravel well broken?—Certainly; but I mean further, that in digging the gravel near London, and places where there are vast quantities of loam, and that loam adhering to every particle of the gravel, however small, I should recommend to leave the very small or fine part of the gravel in the pits, and to make use of the larger part which can be broken, for the double purpose of having the gravel laid on the road in an angular shape, and that the operation of breaking it is the most effectual operation for beating off the loam that adheres to the pieces of gravel. There are other cases besides that of gravel, in which I should think it unprofitable to lift a road. The road between Cirencester and Bath is made of very soft stone, and is of so brittle a nature, that if it were lifted it would rise in sand, and there would be nothing to lay down again that would be useful. I should not recommend lifting of freestone roads for the same reason, because it would go so much to sand that there would be very little to lay down again. I will explain what I have done to that road between Cirencester and Bath; I was obliged to lift a little of the sides of the road in order to give it shape, but in the centre of the road, we, what our men call, “shaved it;” it was before in the state which the country people call “gridironed,” that is, it was in long ridges with long hollows between, and we cut down the high part to a level with the bottom of the furrows, and took the materials and sifted them at the side of the read and returned what was useful to the centre.

Can you state whether the plan adopted on this road has increased or diminished the expense?—I think the expenses, by the last account, were rather within the expenditure of the former year, even including the new surveyor’s wages. They had been in the practice of allowing about 32_l._ a week to the two surveyors as the ordinary expenditure; I directed the new surveyors not to exceed that sum upon any account whatever, including their own wages: but formerly they paid that sum, and paid the surveyor his wages at the end of the quarter or half-year in addition: therefore I consider the sum expended upon the road is rather within the former expenditure than otherwise, except with regard to two dangerous slips which took place at Swainswick-hill, which I consider as perfectly extra.

In the formation of roads under your management, to what shape do you give the preference; I allude to the convex shape or the flat?—I consider a road should be as flat as possible with regard to allowing the water to run off at all, because a carriage ought to stand upright in travelling as much as possible. I have generally made roads three inches higher in the centre than I have at the sides, when they are 18 feet wide; if the road be smooth and well made, the water will run off very easily in such a slope.

Do you consider a road so made will not be likely to wear hollow in the middle, so as to allow the water to stand, after it has been used for some time?—No; when a road is made flat, people will not follow the middle of it as they do when it is made extremely convex. Gentlemen will have observed that in roads very convex, travellers generally follow the track in the middle, which is the only place where a carriage can run upright, by which means three furrows are made by the horses and the wheels, and the water continually stands there: and I think that more water actually stands upon a very convex road than on one which is reasonably flat.

What width would you in general recommend for laying materials on a turnpike road?—That must depend upon the situation. Near great towns roads of course ought to be wider than farther in the country. Roads near great towns ought not to be less than thirty or forty feet wide, but at a distance from great towns it would be a waste of land to make them so wide.

You mean a breadth of thirty feet actual road?—Yes. The access to Bristol for a distance of about three miles, if we had room between the hedges, I would make about thirty feet wide. Between Bath and Bristol I should wish to see the road wide all the way, because it is only the distance of twelve miles between two large cities.

In what way do you make the watercourses at the sides of the road; I ask that question, having observed the farmers, in exercising their power of cleaning out their ditches, dig them to such a depth as to render them dangerous to be passed at night?—I always wished the ditch to be so dug as that the materials of the road should be three or four inches above the level of the water in the ditch, and to that point we endeavour to bring the farmers, but they are very unwilling to clean the ditches at any time when called upon, and when they do it, if they find vegetable mould in any quantity at the bottom of the ditch, they will prosecute their inquiry much deeper than is useful, or proper for safety.

Do you consider you have power by law, at present, for preventing that?—Yes; because the law says, they are to clean them out according to the directions of the surveyors.

In your experience have you found any impediment to the improvement of the roads, from a want of power in the proprietors of different navigations to lower their tolls for conveying materials?—I have found in the river Lea navigation, that the trustees have no power to lower their tolls, which were imposed by act of parliament upon merchandize, and therefore, it operated in a great measure as a prohibition to carry materials upon that river.

Do you consider it would be to the interest of the proprietors to allow materials to be carried on their navigations at a lower rate than they are empowered to allow by law?—Yes, if they could.

Do you know any similar instance as applicable to canals?—I don’t know an instance with respect to canal trusts, but there is an instance with respect to the Bath river at Bristol. No mitigation of the present rate of duty on that river can take place if objected to by any one proprietor, and therefore we have found great difficulty in carrying materials on the Bath river. In one particular place we have been entirely precluded from carrying any.

Have you found any impediment to the improvement of roads arising from the conditions upon which materials are permitted to be conveyed from one parish to another?—Yes; I found that in several cases in the Bristol district. One very strong instance occurred near Keynsham; we had a quarry close to the edge of one parish, and we could not carry the stones from it to the distance of ten yards, without the process of going to the magistrates.

Did you in that case make application to the magistrates?—I did intend to make application, but before I made that application, I found in the very next field, belonging to the same farmer, and in the parish where we required them, the necessary materials, and I was under the necessity of opening both the fields, to the detriment of the farmer’s landlord I am persuaded.

Do you know an instance of such an application as that to which you have alluded, having been made to the magistrates, and having been refused?—No, I do not.

Do you think that a great inconvenience and loss of time would be saved if that necessity of application was dispensed with?—It certainly is a great inconvenience, and creates a great deal of heart-burning in the country, and much dispute. I think the commissioners would very seldom be disposed to carry materials from one parish to another, unless for the general public good.

What depth of solid materials would you think it right to put upon a road, in order to repair it properly?—I should think that ten inches of well consolidated materials is equal to carry anything.

That is, provided the substratum is sound?—No; I should not care whether the substratum was soft or hard; I should rather prefer a soft one to a hard one.

You don’t mean you would prefer a bog?—If it was not such a bog as would not allow a man to walk over, I should prefer it.

What advantage is derived from the substrata not being perfectly solid?—I think, when a road ts placed upon a hard substance, such as a rock, the road wears much sooner than when placed on a soft substance.

But must not the draught of a carriage be much greater on a road which has a very soft foundation, than over one which is of a rocky foundation?—I think the difference would be very little indeed, because the yield of a good road on a soft foundation, is not perceptible.

To use the expression to which you have alluded, as being used by the coachmen, would a carriage run so true upon a road, the foundation of which was soft, as upon one of which the foundation was hard?—If the road be very good, and very well made, it will be so solid, and so hard, as to make no difference. And I will give the Committee a strong instance of that, in the knowledge of many gentlemen here. The road in Somersetshire, between Bridgewater and Cross, is mostly over a morass, which is so extremely soft, that when you ride in a carriage along the road, you see the water tremble in the ditches on each side; and after there has been a slight frost, the vibration of the water from the carriage on the road, will be so great as to break the young ice. That road is partly in the Bristol district. I think there is about seven miles of it, and at the end of those seven miles, we come directly on the limestone rock. I think we have about five or six miles of this rocky road immediately succeeding the morass; and being curious to know what the wear was, I had a very exact account kept, not very lately, but I think the difference is as five to seven in the expenditure of the materials on the soft and hard.

Do you mean seven on the hard and five on the soft?—Yes.

And yet the hard road is more open to the effect of the sun and air than the soft road?—It certainly lies higher.

Have you ever inquired of the coachmen, on which of those two descriptions of roads the carriages run the lightest?—Yes, I have; and I have found that there is no difference, if the road be equally smooth on the surface, whether it be placed on the soft ground or hard.

But in forming a road over a morass, would you bottom the road with small or large stones?—I never use large stones on the bottom of a road; I would not put a large stone in any part of it.

In forming a road across morass, would you not put some sort of intermediate material between the bog and the stone?—No, never.

Would you not put faggots?—No, no faggots.

How small would you use the stones?—Not to exceed six ounces in weight.

Have you not found that a foundation of bog sinks?—No, not a bit of the road sinks; and we have the same thickness of materials on the one as on the other.

If a road be made smooth and solid, it will be one mass, and the effect of the substrata, whether clay or sand, can never be felt in effect by carriages going over the road; because a road well made, unites itself into a body like a piece of timber or a board.

In making a road under these circumstances, do you make the whole of the depth of materials at once?—No, I prefer making a road in three times.

Three different times?—Yes.

To what size would you break the hard materials?—To the size of six ounces weight.

Do you not think that is an indefinite criterion; had you not better mention the size?—No; I did imagine myself, that the difference existed to which you allude, and I have weighed six ounces of different substances, and am confident there is little difference in appearance and none in effect; I think that none ought to exceed six ounces; I hold six ounces to be the maximum size. If you made the road, of all six ounce stones it would be a rough road; but it is impossible but that the greater part of the stones must be under that size.

Do you find a measure or ring through which the stones will pass, a good method of regulating their size?—That is a very good way, but I always make my surveyors carry a pair of scales and a six ounce weight in their pocket, and when they come to a heap of stones, they weigh one or two of the largest, and if they are reasonably about that weight they will do; it is impossible to make them come exactly to it. I would beg leave to say, in all cases of laying new materials upon an old road, I recommend loosening the surface with a pickaxe a very little, so as to allow the new materials to unite with the old, otherwise the new materials being laid on the hard surface never unite, but get kicked about, and are lost to the roads; wherever new materials are to be put down upon an old road, I recommend a little loosening; but that I don’t call lifting.

Have you stated what thickness of new materials you would lay down on an old road?—I should consider an old road would not want new materials if it had ten inches of materials before, but I should only pick up the materials, and break the large stones; and if there were any want of materials, I would lay on as much as would bring it up to somewhere about the ten inches.

Would you prefer doing that in dry weather or in wet weather?—In wet weather, always; I always prefer mending a road in weather not very dry.