Chapter V: Part 5

Is there any particular method which you have employed out of the common practice, for making use of these materials?—I have bestowed great labour, care and attention in the preparation of these materials in the pits, and in their separation previous to their being brought upon the roads; and also much labour and care for a length of time after their being laid upon the road, until it became perfectly smooth, hard and level.

Can you state to the Committee the probable future expense of keeping these roads in repair, after they have once been put into good order, as compared with the annual outgoings under the old management?—I am of opinion that the expense of maintaining these roads in good condition will be considerably less than the former expenditure; for the reason, that the better a road is, the less the wear; and that there will be a less quantity of materials required, when properly prepared, than were formerly used, when they were brought to the road in a very foul and improper state.

Can you state generally, whether the proportion of labour, materials and cartage that you have described upon the Epsom trust, agrees with the same proportion upon the other roads under your management?—On some of the other roads, the proportion of labour to cartage will be found greater than upon the Epsom road. At Cheshunt, in five months, during which the roads have been put into good repair, I have expended the sum of 800_l._ forty of which alone was paid for cartage. Upon the Wades-mill trust, out of 600_l._ expended, not a sixpence was paid for cartage. Upon the Royston roads, where I have spent 500_l._ not any of it was paid for cartage. Upon the Huntingdon roads, I have spent 20_l._ a week, the whole of which has been paid in labour. At Reading, during eight months, 500_l._ were laid out, 400_l._ of which were paid for labour.

Is it your opinion, that the proportion of labour, wages, and cartage, is likely to continue the same, in the future reparation of the roads?—I am of opinion they will; because there will be an increase of labour, in the preparation of the materials, previous to their being brought to the road; and also in the formation of the road after they are laid on. By a more careful and proper preparation of the materials, a much less quantity will be required to uphold the roads than formerly; I am, therefore, of opinion, that the proportion of labour to cartage will continue the same.

It appears, by your answer to a former question, that the expense of cartage has been much diminished, owing to your making use of the materials of the old road; will not the proportionate expense of cartage for future years be increased in consequence of your no longer having the resource of breaking up the roads, but being obliged to repair them with fresh materials?—In some degree it certainly would.

In what way is the statute labour at present performed upon these roads?—Upon two of the trusts only, the Royston road and the Huntingdon road, I have had occasion to avail myself of any statute labour; the fund upon the other trusts being more than sufficient to uphold the roads without having recourse to statute labour. Upon these two trusts I have derived some small advantage from statute labour.

_Colonel Charles Brown_, called in; and Examined.

Are you one of the commissioners of the turnpike road upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

How long have you acted?—Several years, eight or ten years.

Be kind enough to explain to the Committee any recent improvements, which have taken place in the management and repairs of the roads within that trust?—Since the new method has been adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam, a very evident advantage has arisen to the roads; they are now extremely good, and were formerly very indifferent; I therefore attribute it solely to the present mode adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam for nothing can be better than the roads are at present.

Can you state to the Committee, whether the improvement has taken place with an increase or a diminution of the expense?—I believe at about one-third less; At least I understand that it was taken at about one-third less.

Has there been any increase upon the tolls upon these roads?—Not since Mr. MᶜAdam has had any thing to do with them. I have every reason to suppose there will be a diminution, in consequence of the good state of the roads.

Having heard Mr. MᶜAdam’s evidence, can you give the Committee any further information with regard to the means by which these improvements have been effected?—I conceive that the mode of Mr. MᶜAdam has been the means of making the roads so much better, that it is only wonderful when we see it now, that it has not taken place sooner, being founded upon the best principle possible.

Can you state whether these improvements have taken place by the use of any new materials, or by a better application of the existing materials?—By the better application of the existing materials, certainly.

Have you found this improved system attended with any advantages, in regard to the employment of the poor within those parishes?—With regard to the parish where I live, and where my property is situated, I have seen considerable improvement, since we have had the opportunity of sending our poor to be employed by Mr. MᶜAdam, who has most readily employed every one we have sent; and I can state now, that we have not a man unemployed that I know of.

_Ezekiel Harman_, Esquire, called in and Examined.

You are a commissioner of the turnpike road upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

Having heard the evidence of the last witness; can you, upon your own knowledge, confirm the testimony that he has given with regard to improvement of the roads within your trust under Mr. MᶜAdam’s inspection, and the advantages derived therefrom?—I can, certainly. It is a matter of surprise to me, that so material an alteration has been already made in the roads, the advantages of which are obvious to every one travelling the road; and, as an additional proof, the coachmen who are in the habit of driving that road have confirmed this statement. I have witnessed also a similar improvement in the Epsom road, where the forward state of the improvement shows an additional proof of the advantages derived from this system.

_Thomas Bridgman_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

Are you a commissioner upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

Having heard the evidence of the two last witnesses does your judgment in all respects confirm the testimony which they have given, in regard to the improvement which has taken place upon your roads, and the advantages derived from them?—Most assuredly. I have witnessed these roads for more than twenty years, in a variety of forms as a commissioner. I have observed, the failure of two or three different sets of coachmen and coach concerns down below, all of whom are now saying, that if this system continues they shall require a horse less. All these parties were originally much prejudiced against the new system.

_John Martin Cripps_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are a magistrate of the county of Surrey, and commissioner of the roads upon the Epsom trust?—I am.

Can you inform the Committee what was the state of the roads within your trust, previous to the year 1818?—They were very bad, having no attention paid to the formation of the road; having the water, in many places, going over the road; and great inattention paid to the breaking of the materials, and to the expense attending the carting of them.

At what time did you commence the alteration in the system of management?—At the latter end of December 1817, when the roads were put under the superintendence of Mr. MᶜAdam, senior, and when his son commenced the management.

What alterations have since taken place in the state of the roads?—By a newer formation of the road; the materials being properly broken; and the water carried under the road by trunks, or drains, with proper gratings.

Referring to the particulars of the expenditure given by Mr. MᶜAdam, jun. in his evidence this day, can you confirm the accuracy of those accounts?—Yes; and I can explain that the items for tradesmen’s bills include the wharfing and repairs of Bridges in each year; I can add, that the statute labour for 1815, 1816, and 1817, amounting to one hundred pounds each year, which Mr. MᶜAdam has not availed himself of in their improvements.

Had the system of management pursued by Mr. MᶜAdam proved the means of giving employment to labourers in the district, and thereby lessening the poor’s rates?—Very much so; and they have occasionally employed from twenty to thirty persons, stout able-bodied men, who otherwise would have been obliged to have been supported out of the parish rates.

Have you in consequence had any persons who were able to work who have been out of employ?—Between twenty and thirty persons have been employed for the last three months in breaking flints, and in repairing and improving the roads, who otherwise must have come upon the poor’s rates; and all the persons who have been enabled to work have found employment in consequence of this improvement; that has been the means of greatly relieving our poor’s rates.

Has the same system been extended to the private roads in that district?—It has been adopted in some of the private roads of that district, and with the same beneficial effects.

Can you state any particulars with regard to the necessity there has been for carting additional materials for these roads?—At present Mr. MᶜAdam having lifted the roads, has found more than sufficient material for the support of those roads.

What have been the materials that have been used?—The materials that have been used are flints chiefly.

During the state of improvement of these roads, have the tolls been increased or reduced within your trust?—At our last meeting, we agreed, that at the next letting, the tolls should be reduced from May next, for the benefit of agriculture in general; and that where two shillings and eight-pence is now paid, they will have now to pay one shilling; that with relation to the agricultural interest, will be a reduction of twenty five pounds per mile.

Within your own personal observation, have you known any other instance in which a road has been formed upon the same principles as those adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam?—I had an opportunity of observing in Sweden that the roads were more beautiful than any I ever beheld; they are formed in the same manner as by Mr. MᶜAdam, the materials broken extremely small. The material is the best in the world, as it is rocks of Granite; and so well do they understand the necessity of breaking them small, that you never behold throughout Sweden, a fragment of granite larger than the size of a walnut, for the purposes of the roads.

What is the shape of these roads?—To the eye they appear perfectly flat; but upon trial by the spirit level, there is a slight degree of convexity.

_William Dowdeswell_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are a commissioner upon the Epsom trust?—I am.

How long have you been a commissioner?—About four or five years.

Have you had any opportunity of observing the comparative state of the roads since they were put under the care of Mr. MᶜAdam, compared with that in which they were before?—They were very bad when first put under Mr. MᶜAdam’s care; they are now, I think, very good.

Do you attribute this to the improved system of management?—Totally.

Can you confirm the evidence that has been already given relative to the expenses of repairing the roads previously to that time and since?—From the statement made to me by the former surveyor, and from Mr. MᶜAdam’s statement, I believe the statements delivered in to you are perfectly correct. Considering the advantage which the public has derived from Mr. MᶜAdam’s system, I have adopted the same upon the parish roads. I offered myself to the parish as their surveyor, for the purpose of carrying that system into execution. I have found employment for all persons who wanted employment upon the parish roads, assisted occasionally by persons going to the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.

How long have you adopted this system upon the private roads?—Ever since October last.

From that period the whole of the poor have been employed upon the parish roads?—From that period the whole of the poor that wanted employment, have been employed upon the parish roads, or upon the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.

Have those persons been employed by you, by piece-work or by day-work?—The roads were in such a state, and as I wanted knowledge to employ by piece-work, I have been compelled to employ them by day-work.

From your experience are you of opinion that these private roads, made upon the new system which has been adopted, can be kept in good repair at a less expense than they formerly cost in their bad state?—At a very considerable less expense than formerly.

_Martis, 23º die Martii, 1819._

Mr. _Benjamin Farey_, called in; and Examined.

You are, I believe, the surveyor of the Whitechapel road?—I am.

How long have you been in that office?—Nine years.

In what situation did you find the road, at the time of your undertaking the management?—I found the Whitechapel road in a dreadful state, partly from the neglect of the surveyor, in laying on foul and improper materials. In the autumn of 1809, it was almost impassable.

Gravel is the only material you have in that neighbourhood?—Gravel is the only material we find, on or near the spot.

Is the traffic upon the Whitechapel road so great as to render it impossible to preserve it in good order with the present materials?—It is impossible to preserve it in good order at all times, with the present materials; it is past the art of man.

Do you consider the traffic upon that road, as greater than upon any other road out of London?—I believe it is a heavier traffic; there are not so many light carriages, as on some other roads.

What species of carriages do you consider do the most injury to your road?—The carriages that do the most injury, are those with the widest wheels.

In what way do you consider that they injure the road?—By their great weights destroying the materials.

Are the carriages you allude to, exempt from the payment of tolls?—They pay much less tolls. The pressure, or crushing of materials by the wide wheels, is owing to the wheels not running flat.

Being of a conical shape?—Being of a barrelled and conical shape, and the middle tire projecting above the others, with rough nails.

Do you consider, that if those wheels were made of a cylindrical or flat shape, it would be good policy to grant them any exemption from tolls?—They would be less injurious for being cylindrical; but whenever the road was at all out of the level, and the weight came on one edge of the wheel, the road would be destroyed there.

Upon the whole, is it your opinion that there are any circumstances which justify an exemption from toll, on account of the breadth of the wheels?—I do not see any at all, for I think they are injurious in every sense, on account of the great weights they carry.

Do you consider that injury is done to the roads, in consequence of the use of single shafts in waggons?—Very great.

In what way?—In consequence of single shafts, the horses follow in one track, in the centre of the carriage; and the wheels also follow each other in other tracks, and cut ruts: if there were double shafts, they would naturally avoid former wheel-tracks, which would be less injurious to the road.

Do you consider it therefore desirable to give encouragement to double shafts?—I do.

Do you consider the watering of that road in any way injurious?—I consider that watering that road in summer, is very injurious.

In what respect?—The water separates the stones, owing to the softening of the loam, and makes the road spongy and loose.

At what periods do you consider it injurious to water the road for laying the dust?—Before May and after August.

Have you not a practice of sometimes watering in winter, when there is no dust?—After the most careful sifting of the gravel, a small quantity of loamy dirt will unavoidably still adhere to the stones, and this loam, together with a glutinous matter which accumulates in the summer from the dung and urine of the cattle (which accumulation the summer watering has a tendency to increase) occasions the wheels to stick to the materials, in certain states of the road, in spring and autumn, when it is between wet and dry, particularly in heavy foggy weather, and after a frost; by which sticking of the wheels, the Whitechapel road is often, in a short time, dreadfully torn and loosened up; and it is for remedying this evil, that I have, for more than eight years past, occasionally watered the road in winter. As soon as the sticking and tearing up of the materials is observed to have commenced, several water-carts are employed upon these parts of the road, to wet the loamy and glutinous matters so much, that they will no longer adhere to the tire of the wheels, and to allow the wheels and feet of the horses to force down and again fasten the gravel stones; the traffic, in the course of four to twenty-four hours after watering, forms such a sludge on the surface, as can be easily raked off by wooden scrapers, which is performed as quickly as possible; after which the road is hard and smooth, the advantages of this practice of occasional winter watering have been great; and it might, I am of opinion, be adopted with like advantages on the other entrances into London, or wherever else the traffic is great, and the gravel stones are at times observed to be torn up by the sticking of the wheels.

In what state of the road are you in the habit of laying on fresh materials?—I prefer laying on materials immediately after the road has had a scraping, in consequence of there being upon the surface of the road a small quantity of dirty matter and broken gravel, which then form a sort of cement for the gravel to fix in.

You consider it advantageous to lay on the materials when the road is wet?—I do, because the gravel adheres closer.

Considering the very great traffic upon the Whitechapel road, is it your opinion that it would be advantageous to pave any part of that road?—I think it would be desirable to pave it, within some feet of the footpath more particularly.

What breadth from the sides of that road would you consider it desirable to have paved?—About eleven or twelve feet from the footpath.

You would consider it a desirable plan to pave the sides of that road in preference to the centre?—Certainly.

For what reasons?—If the centre was paved, the light carriages would be very much annoyed; when the gravel road was good on the sides, the heavy carriages would go there, and the light carriages would be driven on the stones from the sides again; if the centre was paved the carters would be obliged to walk on that road to manage their horses, and would be considerably annoyed by carriages, horsemen, &c. passing: but if the sides of that road were paved, the carters would be enabled to walk on the footpath and to manage their horses without annoyance.

What is the shape of road which, from your experience, you would give the preference to?—I would have the road barrelled, and made so as that it would convey off the water in the severe weather in winter, when the roads are generally bad.

Which do you give the preference to, a road with a flat surface, or one that gradually declines from the centre?—I think a road which gradually declines from the centre is by far the most preferable, decidedly so.

What is the degree of the declivity or fall which you would recommend as the most desirable?—I have paid particular attention to the Whitechapel road, where it is of the width of 55 feet, and the fall from the centre to the sides is 12 inches; but to attain this shape, when the road is worn down, when first covered with gravel, there should be a fall not exceeding from 16 to 18 inches from the centre to the sides. [_The witness delivered in a cross section of the road._]

Is it your opinion that any parliamentary regulation with regard to stage coaches is necessary for preventing injury to the road?—None.

You think it desirable that they should remain as at present?—Yes.

What is the state of the Whitechapel road now, as compared with what it was some years ago?—During the greater part of the year, it is now one of the most pleasant roads out of London to travel upon; but from the gravel being small and brittle, it is soon worn down, by the great number of heavy weights passing on it. With the small gravel we have in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, the road at times breaks up, and becomes in a bad state; but by the application of water, to stop the sticking of the wheels, and separate the sludge, in two days they are found in a good state again.

Have you any other suggestion to make to the Committee for the improvement of that road, or of roads in general?—On that road, very great improvement might be made, in not allowing the wide wheels to pass by paying so little toll, or to carry so great weights as at present; if the narrow-wheeled waggons were to use double shafts, they would be less injurious to the roads: even with narrow-wheeled carts, if the two fore-horses were double, the shafts not being in their track, it would be less injurious to the roads.

_John Farey_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

What is your profession?—I am a mineral surveyor and engineer.

Have you turned your attention to the state of the roads in the different districts of the kingdom?—I have, very particularly.

Can you furnish the Committee with any information with regard to the state of those roads, as compared with former years?—I can; I have particularly attended to that subject; more especially in the time of the late duke of Bedford, for whom I was an agent. I have since been employed in nearly every part of England and Wales, and also in Scotland: and I have statements by me of the various observations I have made.

You have been employed under the late duke of Bedford, in the improvement of the roads in the neighbourhood of Woburn?—In the management of his roads in Bedfordshire, and of all his rural works.

Describe what improvement of the main road has taken place under your direction, in Woburn?—The whole of the line of the road through Woburn, except about three hundred yards in different places, is on a very strong alluvial clay: the road passes over naked sand, only for three hundred yards; this road had been rendered so sandy and so bad, entirely by bringing soft sand-stone out of Buckinghamshire, at three miles carriage, upon the average, in Woburn, and some of that stone was brought almost to the end of Hockliff Town, where the best gravel abounds. It appeared, from the remains of a number of gravel pits, that there had been formerly a great deal of gravel dug in Woburn; this circumstance I mentioned to the duke of Bedford, and he desired search to be made; and it was ascertained that Woburn might furnish gravel enough, adequate to any purpose. In consequence of which, his Grace directed, when the labourers were much in want of employment, that the poor persons should be employed in preparing a great quantity of gravel for the purposes of this turnpike road. I undertook to direct the taking of this gravel out, and to level the siftings and dirt in a uniform manner, and lay all the soil again upon the top; by which means the land was in no degree injured, but, in fact, considerably benefited, by being loosened to that depth. A great many hundreds of cubic yards of clean-sifted and picked gravel were prepared in numerous square stacks, and the trustees at a meeting, or else their clerk, were informed, that this gravel his Grace offered to the road at the mere cost of labour, without any thing for the gravel, or the temporary damage to the occupiers of the land. After a long time of hesitation, the trustees or their clerk returned an answer, that they did not like that mode, alleging that their surveyor ought to be allowed to dig materials where and how he liked, and they would not have this gravel: it lay there, some of it for two or three years, upon the land. In that time a number of private roads were making of his Grace’s, and a good deal of it was used on these. The main road became progressively worse and worse, and the post-office caused the parish to be indicted. I was then surveyor, and made an application to the trustees, stating the circumstances the road was under: that road-trust is thirteen miles in length, two of which, or rather more, are in the parish of Woburn; there is a toll-gate in the parish which the inhabitants are liable to all the toll of; some of them, even in going and returning to and from their fields: the trustees had exacted very strictly _the half_ of the statute duty, although the parish had, I think, eleven miles of private roads to maintain. I mention this circumstance to show there was no default on the part of the parish; and it was afterwards proved, that they had done their duty; the trustees merely laughed at the application, and said, that they had nothing to do with it: we must repair the road, and till we did so, they would not lay out a farthing upon our road. It happened, very fortunately for the parish of Woburn, that their act was very nearly out, and they applied for a new one; the parish opposed it, stating, that the trustees had misapplied the tolls, and praying, that the part of the road, through Woburn, should be taken out of their management; the act accordingly directed, that two-thirteenths of the tolls should be paid over to the parish surveyors of Woburn, and the trustees were not to call for any statute duty, or interfere in the management of this part of the road; in consequence of this, the gravel mentioned, which remained, and great quantities dug on purpose, was used upon the road, in a sufficient quantity at once, so as to admit of its settling down together; for it wanted lining nine inches thick, or more, and the road has since been perfectly good.

_Jovis, 25º die Martii, 1819._

_John Farey_, Esquire, called in; and Examined,

In effecting the improvement of the Woburn road, did you make use of any particular mode of applying the gravel?—The gravel, before the time of using it, had been very clean-sifted, and separated from the dirt and sand; the great stones had been picked out, and such of the flints which were of a long and irregular shape, in order that they might be broken. After laying the gravel upon the road men were daily employed to rake the gravel into the ruts, and, at the same time, to carefully pick off the surface any stones that were either soft or improperly shaped, like long flints, or too large.

What is your opinion, in regard to the form the most preferable for turnpike roads?—A small convexity in the middle.

Will you state the fall, in any given width of road, that you would prefer?—Referring to my brother, Mr. Benjamin Farey’s evidence, I agree with him in wishing that the section which he produced, might be received by the Committee, as an answer to this question.

Is there any particular circumstance, in the formation of roads, more particularly applicable to the immediate neighbourhood of London?—In the neighbourhood of London, and of several other large towns, the materials that are to be readily procured, are of too tender and brittle a nature to endure the wear of the heavy carriages; I therefore am of opinion, that it would be proper to pave the sides of all the principal entrances into London; but not the middle, as has been done on the Commercial road and Borough Stones’-end road. My reasons for preferring the sides being paved are, that it is next to impossible to compel the carters to keep upon the pavement in the middle of the road, in too many instances; the fear of damage, from the swift going carriages, occasions them, either to draw their carts close to the sides, and walk upon the footpaths, or what is worse to leave their horses in the middle, beyond a train of carriages. The sides being paved, would enable one of those trains of carriages to enter London on one side of the road, and go out of it on the other, without many occasions to turn out of their tracks: which keeping nearly to the same tracks, upon a well-paved road, would not be prejudicial; but on a road formed of gravel is entirely ruinous.

Do you consider that the plan of rolling the roads in the neighbourhood, of London, might be advantageously introduced?—The centre of the roads I should recommend to remain covered with clean-sifted and picked gravel, having as many as possible of its large, roundish and smooth stones broken by means of a hammer before the time of laying it on the road, and that an heavy iron roller, of from four to five feet diameter, and not less, might be advantageously used in the first settling down of this gravel; a small roller, such as I believe to have been tried in the neighbourhood of London, very heavily loaded on its top, might have a tendency to force the loose gravel before it so as not easily to be drawn or to mount on to the gravel driven before it without crushing the flints. I will add, I am of opinion, that a roller could not be beneficially used upon a road at any other times but after new coating it with gravel, or after a frost or the sticking of materials to the wheels may have loosened up the materials.

Do you consider that the present regulations in regard to exemptions of tolls to waggons with broad wheels, are justified by sound policy?—In my opinion, those exemptions have wholly originated in mistaken principles, and that no wheels wider than about six inches are now, in fact, used upon the roads, owing to the general and gross deceptions which the waggoners practise as to the breadth of surface that their wheels roll on; and that if by any more efficient regulations, the users of broad wheels were compelled to roll the breadths of surface, which the laws contemplate, all such wheels would be immediately disused, from the great additional force of draught which broad wheels occasion during the average state of all the roads.

Are you of opinion that any regulation by statute, for substituting cylindrical for conical wheels, would remedy that evil, or justify an exemption from toll?—As far as I have observed, there are no conical wheels in use: all the wheels are rounding or barrelled, and it is comparatively an immaterial circumstance whether they approach the form of a cone or a cylinder, while they remain so rounding or barrelled, because their enormous loads roll on a very small portion of the surface of all those broad wheels. I think that six-inch cylindrical wheels, or under, are the most practicable and useful, provided the projecting nails are most rigidly prohibited, which I believe can never be done but by a penalty per nail upon the wheelers who put in those nails, and upon the drivers of the carriages who used such roughly-nailed wheels.

Are you of opinion that the penalties now fixed by law upon over-weights are regulated upon good principles?—I consider the whole system as to penalties upon over-weights generally bad; the present regulations seem to me framed upon mistaken principles, and are the source of very great impositions.

In what manner might the penalties and tolls upon carts and waggons be best fixed?—It is not practicable very simply or in this way to state any one scale that would be generally applicable for each breadth of wheels: below six inches, there should be a rate fixed, which would apply to ordinary or gate-tolls, and at the weighing machines additional tolls, which I will call machine-tolls, should be levied upon all carriages which exceeded the weight, to be regulated in an increasing scale for each breadth of wheel, so as very greatly to discourage, but not ruinously to prohibit the occasional carrying of large weights upon any wheels.

You are not, then, of opinion that it would be right to do away the regulations altogether in respect to the weights, and apportion the tolls only to the number of horses?—By no means.

Are you acquainted with any particular weighing machine, which obviates the common objection in regard to impositions by the machine-keepers?—I am; Mr. Salmon, of Woburn, many years ago, contrived, and had a patent (which has expired) for a weighing machine, intended to prevent impositions on the carters: the machine being so contrived as to be locked up from the machine-keeper, and accessible only to the surveyor, and so as to exhibit the exact weight by a revolving index, like the hands of a clock, which are called clock-face indexes; a great number of these weighing machines have long been in use in the kingdom, some in the immediate environs of London: by looking at the index of which machine, the carter, or any passer by, may see that the machine, before the carriage is drawn upon its weigh-bridge, is in just balance; and all the time the carriage remains upon the weigh-bridge, the index exhibits the weight, so that the carter can take it down; and at the same time the dial-plate is made an abstract of the law, by there being written against each of the weights fixed, the breadth of the carriage wheel, and the season to which that weight is applicable at the commencement of penalties for over-weights.

Can you inform the Committee of the expense of a machine of this description?—I cannot; but it is trifling, compared with its advantages, and an index may be added to a machine upon the common principle, using weights, placed in a scale; they may be applied to any good machine already in use.

Are you of opinion there exists any necessity for limiting the number of horses in carts and wagons, upon roads where there are weighing-machines?—I am of opinion not; and even doubt the propriety of calculating the gate-toll by the number of horses which draw the carriage. Upon private or parish roads, where no machines are erected, there seems, however, no other mode of regulating or preventing excessive loads being carried, to the ruin of the roads, than limiting the number of horses; but in case of the practice becoming general, which already prevails in many of the towns in the middle of England, of there being a weighing-machine, kept by a cottager, at all the principal entrances at the town, at which he is authorized (by the local magistrates, I believe,) to collect a small toll for each weighing, for those who voluntarily apply to him, by which means all loads passing into and out of such towns, may be, and the greater part of them are now, weighed; and if this were adopted in the environs of London, (with the addition of a yard and a warehouse, where a carter who has inadvertently taken up too large a load, either of dung, furniture, or other articles, of the weights of which he could not be accurately informed, may learn the same; and where, upon the result of this weighing, if it should be discovered that he had much too large a load, he could there throw off and deposit a part of it, either to abandon it if of small value like dung, or to take it up from the warehouse, at a future time,) these entrance weighing-machines would remove the only valid objection to weighing the loads of manure going out of London, by which the roads are at present more cut up and destroyed, than by any other description of carriages.

Will you have the goodness to state the principle upon which you prefer that the tolls should be regulated entirely by weights and breadth of wheels, without regard to the number of horses drawing?—Because nothing can be more vague or unsatisfactory, than the latter mode of defining weights, or preventing the carrying of excessive loads, because horses are of such very different degrees of size, condition and strength, and the humanity or otherwise of their drivers are so very different; but more on account of the very great inequality of the different roads of the kingdom, which this general regulation is now made to apply to, as to the number and steepness of the hills: the precautions that have been used, of setting up posts upon the tops and bottoms of those steeps, to define where extra horses may be used, are entirely become useless, comparatively, none of the hills now remain, to any length, with so great a degree of steepness, as to cause it to be worth any one’s while to keep horses stationed there, for the purpose of assisting heavy carriages up those hills for hire; still less has it occurred that any waggoner has spare horses following his waggon, for which he must pay tolls, in order to avail himself of this useless permission, to use any number of horses up the steep hills.

Are you of opinion that stage-coaches require, or would admit of any regulation with respect to their wheels or weights?—I am clearly of opinion, that they would not; for in travelling, when it has happened that I could not get a seat on the front of the coach, I have, through many long days, carefully attended to the impression made by the wheels of the carriages upon which I have been travelling (when they have been among the heaviest loaded coaches) and have compared these impressions with those of the carts and waggons, particularly broad-wheeled ones, which we met; from which observations, and other more particular ones, I am of opinion, that the injury done to the roads by the coaches, compared with their utility and the tolls they pay, is not such as to justify any legal restraint on their wheels or weights.

Are you of opinion, that it would be attended with any advantage to the roads, to encourage, by any regulation or exemption from tolls, the use of carriages, varying the length of their axles, so as to prevent their running in the same tracks?—I am of opinion it would be very beneficial, and have particularly so stated to the Board of Agriculture, with an example of the tolls over a new road, which are so regulated in Derbyshire: in addition to which, some inducement in the abatement of tolls, might be made to those carriages, which now generally use single shafts like the farmers’ carts and waggons, on their adopting double shafts, so that all their horses may draw in pairs; this being applicable even to three-horse carts, as far as concerns the two foremost. Stage-coaches, for the reasons here alluded to, as they do all draw in pairs, and very seldom follow in any previous and deep rut, do far less damage to the roads than otherwise would happen; their springs also, and swiftness of motion, contributing, very materially, to lessening their wear of the road.

Are you of opinion that any advantage would be derived from the general commutation of statute duty?—I have long been of opinion that the whole principle of statute duty, as now regulated, is erroneous; labour in kind should entirely cease: and the surveyor collect a more equable rate on all property in his township; the present regulations for calling out the teams and making of a road rate, are so complicated, as to be above the capacity of the majority of parish surveyors, who in most or all instances collect the rates for the turnpike roads as well as the private roads.

Will you state your opinion of the statute labour, as it particularly applies to turnpike roads?—In all the local road acts which I have examined, one half of the statute duty of each township is apportioned to each toll road which passes through any part or corner of that township, which in innumerable instances, is very highly prejudicial; a due proportion of the fair road rate, as already mentioned, should be payable to each toll road, where there are more than one in the township, in proportion (or nearly so, as the quarter sessions might order) to all the lengths of all the roads within the township which it contributes to repair.

From your observation of the different roads throughout the kingdom, do you think that important advantages would be derived from their being placed under skilful surveyors, acting for large districts?—At present, the separate trusts are so exceedingly different in extent, many of them extending only three, four and five miles, while others have fifty or a hundred miles of road under their trusts, that it seems impracticable, in many trusts, to employ a very skilful and competent surveyor, on account of the great and unnecessary expense that would be incurred on the short lengths of road; but if the legislature should see it right to enact the appointment of thoroughly competent district surveyors, who might have the superintendence and control, to a defined extent, over the officers of the local trustees of turnpike roads, as well as over the surveyors of the parish roads within their districts, the most important advantages would result.

Do you not think great inconvenience arises from the great numbers generally found forming commissioners of turnpike trusts?—From my own experience, I cannot say that I have seen any evil from the great number of trustees, on the contrary, the greatest mismanagement that I have seen in any roads, has arisen from the clergymen of the districts being almost the only acting trustees; the greatest and most active land owners frequently having no share in such trusts: the late duke of Bedford, for instance, not being a trustee in the vicinity of Woburn for many years after he took an active part in improving the district.

_James Walker_, Esq. called in; and Examined.

You are a civil engineer?—I am.

In the course of your experience have you turned your attention to the making and repairing of roads?—I have been employed in the making and repairing of several roads, and the regulation of others.

In what part of the kingdom have you been employed, and what observations have occurred to you upon this subject?—The whole of the works executed under the Commercial Road, the East India Road, the Barking Road, and the Tilbury Road Acts, have been under my direction, as well as the roads made under the Bridge and Dock Companies, for which I have been engineer. The Commercial Road, which is between the West India Docks and London is referred to in the report of a former Committee on highways, as particularly well fitted for heavy traffic; that road is seventy feet wide, and is divided into two footways, each ten feet, and a carriage road fifty feet wide, of which twenty feet in the middle is paved with granite. I have a section of the form of this road (No. 1, in the annexed plan.) The East India Dock branch of the Commercial Road is also seventy feet wide, ten feet of which is paved with granite. I have prepared also a section of that road (No. 2, in the plan.) The traffic upon the Commercial Road, both up and down, is very great, and necessarily required a width of paving sufficient for two carriages to pass upon it. I am quite sure that the expense of this road would have been very much greater, probably much more than doubled if it had not been paved, and that the carriage of goods would also here been much more expensive; indeed it would have been next to impossible to have carried the present loads upon a gravelled road. The road has been paved for about sixteen years, and the expense of supporting it has been small, although the stage-coaches generally, as well as almost all the carts and waggons, go upon it; while the expense of the gravelled part has been comparatively great. During the thirteen years that the East India Dock branch has been paved, the paving has not cost 20_l._ in repairs, although the waggons, each weighing about five tons, with the whole of the East India produce, which is brought from the docks by land, have passed all that time in one track upon it, and a great deal of heavy country traffic for the last eight years, when a communication was formed with the county of Essex. The advantage of paving part of a road where the traffic is great, and the materials of making roads bad or expensive, is not confined to improving the conveyance for heavy goods and reducing the horses’ labour; but as the paving is always preferred for heavy carriages, the sides of a road are left for light carriages, and are kept in much better repair than otherwise they could possibly be. It is not, I am sure, overstating the advantage of the paving, but rather otherwise, to say, that taking the year through, two horses will do more work, with the same labour to themselves, upon a paved road than three upon a good gravelled road, if the traffic upon the gravelled road is at all considerable, and if the effect of this, in point of expense, is brought into figures, the saving of the expense of carriage will be found to be very great when compared with the cost of the paving. If the annual tonnage upon the Commercial Road is taken at 250,000 tons, and at the rate of only 3_s._ per ton from the Docks, it could not upon a gravelled road be done under 4_s._ 6_d._ say however 4_s._ or 1_s._ per ton difference, making a saving of 12,500_l._, or nearly the whole expense of the paving in one year. I think I am under the mark in all these figures, and I am convinced therefore that the introduction of paving would, in many cases, be productive of great advantage, by improving the gravel road, reducing the expense of repairs, and causing a saving of horses’ labour much beyond what there is, I believe, any idea of. The expense of a ton of Aberdeen granite paving-stones laid in London, or in any similar situation, including laying, and every expense, is about 25_s._; the cost of the same weight of gravel is from 3_s._ 6_d._ to 5_s._ The cost of granite paving, 9 inches deep, is from 8_s._ 6_d._ to 10_s._ 6_d._ per superficial yard, or from 750_l._ to 920_l._ per mile for every yard in width. Guernsey granite is harder and more durable than Aberdeen granite, but is more expensive by about 10 per cent. and I think is this much better. Some stone of very good quality from near Greenock, has been used lately upon the Commercial Road, it is cheaper than Aberdeen, and appears to be very durable. The requisites for forming a good paving are to have the stones properly squared and shaped, not as wedges, but nearly as rectangular prisms; to sort them into classes according to their sizes, so as to prevent unequal sinking, which is always the effect of stones, or rows of stones, of unequal sizes being mixed together; to have a foundation properly consolidated before the road is begun to be paved, and to have the stones laid with a close joint, the courses being kept at right angles from the direction of the sides, and in perfectly straight lines, the joints carefully broken, that is, so that the joint between two stones in any one course shall not be in a line with, or opposite to a joint in any of the two courses adjoining. After the stones are laid they are to be well rammed, and such of the stones as appear to ram loose, should be taken out and replaced by others; after this the joints are to be filled with fine gravel, and if it can be done conveniently, the stability of the work will be increased by well watering at night the part that has been done during the day, and ramming it over again next morning. The surface of the pavement is then to be covered with an inch or so of fine gravel, that the joints may be always kept full, and that the wheels may not come in contact with the stones while they are at all loose in their places. Attention to these points will very much increase both the smoothness and durability of the paving. I have found great advantage from filling up, or, as it is called, grouting the joints with lime-water, which finds its way into the gravel between and under the stones, and forms the whole into a solid concreted mass. The purpose served by the lime might also be effectually answered by mixing a little of the borings or chippings of iron, or small scraps of iron hoop, with the gravel used in filling up the joints of the paving. The water would very soon create, an oxide of iron, and form the gravel into a species of rock. I have seen a piece of rusty hoop taken from under water, to which the gravel had so connected itself, for four or five inches round the hoop, as not to be separated without a smart blow of a hammer. And the cast-iron pipes which are laid in moist gravel soon exhibit the same tendency.