Chapter XXV: Section C: of my Appendix A, that the crimes of the SS were committed, (7)

THE PRESIDENT: That is a matter which could be clearly dealt with by interrogatories, whether or not Kaltenbrunner did give an order to destroy a concentration camp, or an order to evacuate Dachau. Surely those are matters which admit of proof by interrogatories.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I agree. The same problem arises in connection with the next witness, Number 11, the witness Höllriegel, who has already been heard. Am I to have the opportunity of speaking to this witness before he is cross-examined? Kaltenbrunner denies that he ever saw gas chambers, _et cetera_.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, isn’t Number 11 really cumulative to Number 6, whom you particularly wanted to call?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, Mr. President, certainly.

THE PRESIDENT: Anyhow, the Tribunal will consider the question whether you ought to be given the right merely to cross-examine or to recall as your own witness, with reference to Numbers 11 and 12.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. Just a word about witness Number 12. Eichmann, as is well known, was the man who carried out the whole extermination operation against the Jews, and Kaltenbrunner’s name has been mentioned in connection with this operation. Kaltenbrunner denies it. For that reason I consider Wisliceny a relevant witness.

THE PRESIDENT: That concludes that group. What about the other ones, Sir David? Are they in the same category?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Not quite, but I think it might be convenient if I deal with them.

Dr. Mildner, Number 13, is sought to testify that Kaltenbrunner did not authorize the chief of the Gestapo to sign orders for protective custody or internment, and I should submit that in view of the previous evidence, of Scheidler and Number 4, Neubacher, Dr. Mildner’s evidence is cumulative and that interrogatories would suffice.

As to Schellenberg, Number 14, I have already said that the Prosecution make no objection to his recall for cross-examination.

Finally, Dr. Rainer. We do object to that request, because the object of his testimony, that Kaltenbrunner recommended to the Gauleiter of Austria not to oppose the advancing troops of the Western Powers and not to organize Werewolf movements, is in our submission irrelevant to the issues before this Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Dr. Kauffmann?

DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness Dr. Mildner, Number 13, is here in Nuremberg, in custody. I have asked to call this witness because he has submitted an affidavit containing certain accusations against Kaltenbrunner which Kaltenbrunner denies. I do not think that an interrogatory can clear up these difficulties.

Now, Number 14 . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mildner had submitted an affidavit?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, Sir. There is a reference in the Indictment to an affidavit made by Dr. Mildner. I believe it was on 3 January. The witness’ name was mentioned in connection with the charges against Kaltenbrunner. There are one or two affidavits. . .

THE PRESIDENT: But if the affidavit has not been produced to the Court, what have we got to do with it? We have not seen it, at least in my recollection. You know about it, Sir David?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not been able to trace this affidavit of Dr. Mildner’s. I do not remember it, but I will willingly check the reference that Dr. Kauffmann has given.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course, if the Prosecution have used the affidavit, then you would have no objection to the witness being called for cross-examination?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, in general, no. The reason why I am rather surprised is that usually that point has been taken when it is sought to use the affidavit. The Defense Counsel involved has asked for the production of the witness—but I will have it looked into, this particular point; but in general the Tribunal may take it that unless we put forward a special point, where an affidavit has been given, and where we have not argued to the Court previously, it is a very good case for the witness’s being brought here, if it is convenient.

THE PRESIDENT: I did not understand that Dr. Kauffmann was saying that the affidavit had actually been put in by the Prosecution, but there was some reference made to it. Is that right, Dr. Kauffmann?

DR. KAUFFMANN: It would not take me long to look it up. I have the files for 3 January here.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we will give you an opportunity for looking that up. We will adjourn now for 10 minutes.

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. KAUFFMANN: The name of Mildner appears in the transcript of 2 January, not in the form of an affidavit but in the form of a letter written by a third person and this letter is only mentioned in connection with Mildner’s name; it is not an affidavit. I should like to request that Mildner be interrogated in writing.

Now turning to witness Number 15 . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Fourteen?

DR. KAUFMANN: We have already dealt with Number 14.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you have already dealt with that? Very well, then 15.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness Number 15 is Rainer, who was a Gauleiter. I should like to request that this witness be heard as well. He is in Nuremberg. The subject of the evidence seems important to me. In the case against Kaltenbrunner, he is not expressly charged with the contrary; but if we are dealing with peace and violations of peace, an effort on the part of the defendant to prove that he has done everything in his power to prevent further bloodshed seems to me relevant.

THE PRESIDENT: Would an interrogatory satisfy you for that witness?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I have not yet submitted any documents, Mr. President. Later on, I may present some affidavits, but, as I have not yet received them, I cannot present them at the moment.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands, Dr. Kauffmann, that you wish to reserve for yourself the right to apply to put in documents at a later stage.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, I request that.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider that and let you know when they make the order.

Yes, Dr. Thoma?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Thoma suggests that we deal with the document list.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: On the first six documents, which are quotations from various books on philosophy, the Prosecution submit that they are irrelevant to the question of the ideology propounded by the Defendant Rosenberg, which the Prosecution make part of the case against him.

Of course, if the purpose is merely that Dr. Thoma would quote from such books in making his speech, and if he would let us know the passages he wants to quote so they can be dealt with mechanically, we do not make any anticipatory objection.

I think that takes us up to Number 6—which are purely general books on philosophy. The Prosecution view with some dismay all these books being put in evidence and the Prosecutors having to read them.

I think I have made the position quite clear that if Dr. Thoma wishes to use them to illustrate the argument, and if he lets us know the passage, we make no general objection, but we object to their being put in as evidence, as not being relevant to the matters before the Court.

DR. THOMA: I do not think that it is possible without a consideration of world philosophy before Rosenberg’s time to understand the morbid psychological state of the German people after their defeat in the first World War. Unless this psychological condition is appreciated, it is impossible to understand why Rosenberg believed that his ideas could help them. I am extremely anxious to show that Rosenberg’s theories were representative of a phase of contemporary philosophy taught in similar form by many other philosophers both at home and abroad. I am extremely anxious to refute the charges made against Rosenberg’s ideology as degenerate and—I must quote the expression—a “smutty ideology.” I have to bear in mind that the members of the Prosecution, especially M. De Menthon, who has made a special study of the National Socialist ideology, made the very natural mistake of confusing the extravagances and abuses of this ideology, usually dubbed “Nazism,” with its real philosophic content. The French Revolution of 1789 was in the same way, I believe, represented by neighboring peoples as a disaster of the first magnitude, and all the rulers in Europe were called upon to fight against it.

I believe that the Court was specially impressed by M. De Menthon’s statements, which represented the Nazi ideology as having no spiritual value and described it as a dangerous doctrine. I think we must allow the possibility of its being taught in other countries as well at that time. I should like, therefore, to ask permission to present the philosophical systems of the time in question, by which I mean the views expressed by other philosophers on Rosenberg’s main concepts, especially the question of blood or race, the soil as a fact of nature and as political and economic living space. Science declares that these ideas are based on the irrational presentation of natural and historical facts. They cannot be dismissed for that reason as unscientific, although they may be disturbing to rationalism and humanism.

I should like, in particular, to prove that these ideas have been respected and developed by rational and empirical science on account of their significance, and that they have been put into practice by other countries in their policy—a fact which I think is important. I need only remind you of the U.S.A. immigration laws, which also give preference to particular races.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: As I understand Dr. Thoma, he wants to use the teachings of other philosophers as illustrations and arguments. If he is going to quote from them, then all that the Prosecution ask is that he tell us which passages he is going to quote, but we suggest that it is not relevant for us to go into an examination of, say, M. Bergson’s book as a matter of evidence.

It is a perfectly clear distinction, and I suggest that Dr. Thoma will be well able to develop the point which he has just put with the limitation which I have just suggested.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal would like to know what it is that you actually propose. Are you proposing to put in evidence certain passages from certain books and that the Tribunal should read them or are you simply asking for the production of books so that you may consult them, read them, and then incorporate in your argument certain ideas which you may gather from the books?

DR. THOMA: I ask the Tribunal to note—officially, at least—the contents of the books which I shall submit. I shall not read all these quotations from the books, but I shall ask the Tribunal to note the outlines. I think it is important for the Tribunal to have the passages quoted from these books actually before them, so that they may have a clear picture of the philosophical—and particularly of the ethical situation—of the German people after their defeat in the World War.

THE PRESIDENT: But the books are not books of any legal authority. You can only cite, surely, to a court of international law, books that are authorities on international law. You can, of course, collect ideas from other books which you can incorporate in your argument. You cannot cite them as authorities.

DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, by submitting quotations from the works of well-known philosophers who presented ideas similar to Rosenberg’s, I propose to prove that this ideology is to be taken quite seriously. In the second place I want to prove that those features of Rosenberg’s ideology which have been branded as immoral and harmful are extravagances and abuses of this ideology; and in my opinion it is most important for the Tribunal to know from a consideration of the history of philosophy, that even the best ideas—such as the French Revolution—can degenerate. I should like to point out these historical parallels to National Socialism and to Rosenberg’s ideology.

I also need these books to prove that Rosenberg was concerned only with the spiritual combating of alien ideology and that he was not in a position to protest any more energetically against the brutal application of his ideology in National Socialism, but that as a matter of principle he allowed scientific discussions of his works to proceed freely and never called in the Gestapo against his theological opponents.

He assumed that his ethnic ideas were not to be carried through by force, but that every people should preserve its own racial character and that intermingling was only permissible in the case of kindred races. He believed that this ideology was for the good of the German people and in the interest of humanity generally.

For these reasons I believe that the Tribunal, in order to have a vivid picture of the background of the development of National Socialism, should inform itself of the spiritual conditions of that time.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the argument you have addressed to it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: With regard to Document Number 7, that is, excerpts from certain books, the first five are from Rosenberg’s own works, and the last is a book by another author on Hitler.

Again I submit that if Dr. Thoma wants to support the thesis contained in the first half of his note—that “the Defendant Rosenberg does not see individual and race, individual and community, at contrast but represents the new romantical conception that the personality finds its perfection and its inner freedom by having the community of the racial spirit developed and represented within itself”—if Dr. Thoma will give any of the extracts from Rosenberg’s works on which he bases that argument, then he can present them at whatever part of his case is convenient; and similarly, with regard to the specific points set out in the second part of his note—there again, if he will give the relevant extracts, they can be considered and their relevancy for the purpose of this Court dealt with when he introduces them in his presentation. But again I take general objection to the fact that either the Court or the Prosecution should read all these works and treat them as evidence. I developed that about the previous document.

DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, if I quote Rosenberg’s actual words and ask the Tribunal to take official notice of them, I shall be in the fortunate position of being able to show that Rosenberg’s philosophy and ideology differ basically from the extravagances and abuses which were attributed to him and to which he took exception.

I am in a position to show that it is clear from his works that Rosenberg intended the Leadership Principle to be restricted by a special council exercising an authoritative, advisory function. I shall also be able to show that the _Myth of the Twentieth Century_ was a purely personal work of Rosenberg’s which Hitler did not by any means accept without reserve. More especially, I am in a position to prove that Rosenberg, as his works will show, would have nothing to do with the physical destruction of the Jews and that, as far as his writings show, he took no part in the psychological preparations for war and that, as far as his writings show, he worked for a peaceful international settlement, especially between the four great European powers of the period. Therefore I beg the Tribunal to allow me to submit the real, genuine quotations from his writings as evidence material.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal will consider the whole question of the production of and the citation from these books.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Number 8, My Lord, falls into a rather different field. The first 11 documents seem to be books and writings containing Jewish views of an antinational basis. The Prosecution reminds the Tribunal that the questions at issue are: Did the defendants as co-conspirators embark on a policy of persecution of the Jews; secondly, did the defendants participate in the later manifestations of that policy, the deliberate extermination of the Jews? Within the submission of the Prosecution, it is remote and irrelevant to these important and terrible accusations that certain Jewish writings, spread over a period of years, contained matters which were not very palatable to Christians.

DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, I should like to reply to this point as follows: I am not interested in showing that the Nazi measures against the Jews were justified. I am interested only in making clear the psychological reasons for anti-Semitism in Germany; and I think I am justified in asking you to listen to some quotations of this kind taken from newspapers, since they must by their very nature offend the patriotic and Christian susceptibilities of very many people.

I must go rather more deeply into this question, too, in order to show the reason for the existence of the so-called Jewish problem in history and religion and the reason for the tragic opposition between Jewry and other races. I should like to quote both Jewish and theological literature on the point.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the question.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I think the Tribunal can take the remaining documents, 9 to 14, together. They seem to deal with specific and, if I may say so without the least intention of offense, more practical matters, in that they deal with the government of the Eastern territories, for which this defendant was responsible; and the Prosecution has no objection to my friend’s using these documents in such a way as it seems fit to him.

DR. THOMA: I should like to mention the following points in connection with the documents:

I have had four additional documents allowed in part by the Tribunal. I have not been able to submit them, because they have not yet been handed over to me; but I would like to tell the Tribunal what they are: First, a letter written by Rosenberg to Hitler in 1924, containing a request by Rosenberg not to be accepted as a candidate for the Reichstag; second, a letter written by Rosenberg to Hitler in 1931 regarding his dismissal from the post of editor in chief of the _Völkischer Beobachter_, the reason being that Rosenberg’s _Myth of the Twentieth Century_ created a tremendous stir among the German people. Rosenberg asked at the time that his work be considered a purely personal work, something which it actually was, and that if his writing was in any way detrimental to the Party, he would ask to be released from his position as editor of the _Völkischer Beobachter_; third, I should like to include a directive from Hitler to Minister for the Eastern Occupied Territories Rosenberg, dated June 1943, in which Hitler instructs Rosenberg to limit himself to matters of principle; fourth, an eight-page letter from Hitler to Rosenberg, written by hand and dating from the year 1925.

THE PRESIDENT: And the fourth one? Will you state the fourth one, the fourth document?

DR. THOMA: I am coming to that.

Point 4—a letter written by Hitler to Rosenberg in 1925, in which Hitler stated his reasons for refusing on principle to take part in the Reichstag elections. Rosenberg’s view at that time was that the Party should enter the Reichstag and co-operate practically with the other parties.

I have just learned that this letter is dated 1923.

Gentlemen, this is something of decisive importance. From the very beginning, Rosenberg wanted the NSDAP to co-operate with the other parties. That could constitute the exact opposite of a conspiracy from the start. May I present to the Court a copy of my four applications?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, these seem to be individual documents whose relevancy can be finally dealt with when Dr. Thoma shows their purpose in his exposition. I do not stress that the Tribunal need not make any final decision on them at the present time.

DR. THOMA: I should like to refer to the fact that I have already asked the General Secretary to admit these documents.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, have you the documents in your possession?

DR. THOMA: Yes, My Lord. The only documents that are lacking are the four I have just mentioned. They are still in the hands of the Prosecution.

THE PRESIDENT: They are in the hands of the Prosecution, are they?

DR. THOMA: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not appreciated that. If Dr. Thoma wants the documents we will do our best to find them. The first time I heard of them, of course, was when Dr. Thoma started speaking a few minutes ago. If the Prosecution have them or can find them, they will let Dr. Thoma have them or have copies of them.

THE PRESIDENT: May I ask you, Dr. Thoma, why it is that you have not put in a written application for these four?

DR. THOMA: I have made such a request, My Lord, several days or a week ago. I made the first request already in November.

THE PRESIDENT: For these four documents?

DR. THOMA: It is like this: The first two documents were granted me already in November or December 1945, but I have not as yet received them.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will consider that. Well, that finishes your documents, does it not?

DR. THOMA: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, with regard to the witnesses, it might be convenient if I indicated the view of the Prosecution on the, say, first six. The Prosecution has no objection to the first witness, Riecke, the State Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture, or to Dr. Lammers, who is being summoned for a number of the defendants, or to Ministerialrat Beil, who was the deputy chief of the Main Department of Labor and Social Policy in the East Ministry.

With regard to the next one, Number 4, Dr. Stellbrecht, the Prosecution suggests that that is a very general matter which does not seem very relevant, and they say that Dr. Stellbrecht should be cut out, or at the most that that point be dealt with by a short interrogatory.

We also object to 5 and 6, General Dankers and Professor Astrowski. General Dankers is sought to say that certain theaters and museums of art in Latvia remained untouched, and that hundreds of thousands of Latvians begged to be able to come into the Reich.

There are papers about certain laws. The Prosecution submits that that evidence does not really touch the matters that are alleged against the Defendant Rosenberg and again they make objection.

Professor Astrowski, who is alleged to be the Chief of the White Ruthenian Central Council and whose whereabouts are still unknown, who was last in Berlin, is to be called to prove that the Commissioner General in Minsk exerted all efforts in order to save White Ruthenian cultural goods. There again the Prosecution says that that is a very general and indefinite allegation and, if the defendant and certain of his officials are called to give evidence as to his policy and administration, it is suggested that the witnesses 5 and 6 are really unnecessary.

I might also deal with Number 7, because the first seven witnesses are the subject of a note by Dr. Thoma. Number 7 is Dr. Haiding, who is the Chief of the Institute for German Ethnology, and it is sought to call him in order to prove that in the Baltic countries cultural institutions were advanced and new ones founded by Rosenberg. That witness, the Prosecution submits, falls into the same category as Dankers and Astrowski. But, with regard to him, if there is any general point, they say that he could be dealt with by interrogatories but certainly should not be called.

It is relevant for the Tribunal to read the note under Number 8 dealing with these witnesses. Dr. Thoma says:

“The witnesses can present evidence for the refutation of the
Soviet accusation that Rosenberg participated in the planning of
a world ideology for the extermination of the Slavs and for the
persecution of all dissenters.”

The Prosecution submits that the three witnesses that they have suggested, coupled with the interrogatories, if necessary, in the case of Stellbrecht and Haiding, should cover these points amply.

DR. THOMA: I agree with Sir David that as far as Dr. Haiding and Dr. Stellbrecht are concerned an interrogatory will be sufficient. Regarding witnesses Numbers 5 and 6, I was interested in bringing in as witnesses people who actually lived in these countries and who have their personal impressions of Rosenberg’s cultural activities; and I request that these witnesses be granted.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Court will consider that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The witness Scheidt comes into the story of the Defendant Rosenberg’s connection with Quisling, and this has been dealt with by interrogatories by the Defense and by certain cross-interrogatories by the Prosecution. This is obviously an important part of the case, and I suggest that the Tribunal does not decide as to the personal summoning of Scheidt until the answers to the interrogatories are before the Tribunal.

Number 10 is Robert Scholz, the department chief in the Special Staff of creative art, and roughly the evidence is to show that the defendant did not take the works of art for his personal benefit. The Tribunal ordered the alerting of this witness on the 14th of January, but on the 24th of January the application for this witness was withdrawn and it is now renewed by Dr. Thoma. If the Tribunal will look at the way in which it is put in Dr. Thoma’s application, which is limited and guided by certain specific acts on which Mr. Scholz can speak—the Prosecution suggest that the Tribunal might think the most convenient way was again to get a set of interrogatories on Mr. Scholz, and see how he can deal with the many individual points put to him.

DR. THOMA: Gentlemen of the Tribunal, the case of the witness Wilhelm Scheidt touches the question of Norway. Scheidt is the decisive witness as to the reports made by Quisling of his own volition without being invited to do so, either through the Amt Rosenberg for foreign policy or through the Reich Ministry for Foreign Affairs. I believe that a personal hearing, a cross-examination, of this witness Scheidt is extremely important, because he can give a great deal of detailed information which is decisive for the question of whether or not Hitler conducted a war of aggression against Norway.

I have been granted an interrogatory for the witness, Departmental Director Scheidt, and I have already taken steps to confer with the Prosecution in this connection. The witness Wilhelm Scheidt has not made an affidavit; but I must point out to the Tribunal that I should have to be present when the affidavit is made and that I should be allowed to question the witness myself, in common with the Prosecution. I should like to repeat my request to cross-examine this Wilhelm Scheidt as a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, if the witness was granted to you as a witness to give evidence in court, it would not be necessary for you to have any representative of the Prosecution when you saw the witness wherever he might be. The advance of a witness would entitle you to see him yourself and to obtain proof of his evidence. Is that clear?

DR. THOMA: So far I have been granted only an affidavit. I have not been granted him as a witness as yet.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I only wanted to make clear to you the difference between interrogatories and being allowed to call a witness to give all the evidence. Of course, if you are submitting to written interrogatories, you would not see the witness; but if, on the other hand, you were going to call the witness as a witness or to present an affidavit from him, you would then be at liberty to see the witness before he made his affidavit or before he drew up his proof.

DR. THOMA: Then I should like to put the request that Wilhelm Scheidt be called as a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand that you are making that request.

DR. THOMA: As far as Robert Scholz is concerned, I should like to point out to the Tribunal that Scholz was the director of the Special Staff entrusted with the practical application of measures to be taken for the safekeeping of works of art in both eastern and western districts and I should like to draw the special attention of the Tribunal to the fact that a number of learned German experts were members of this Special Staff and that they did a great deal of very conscientious work in safeguarding, restoring, and protecting these works of art and in preserving them for posterity. The way in which this Special Staff did its work is of decisive importance, therefore, for a good many men. Robert Scholz knows every detail of the procedure. Robert Scholz can testify, in particular, to the fact that Rosenberg did not appropriate for himself a single one of the enormous wealth of art treasures that passed through his hands and that he kept a careful record of those that went to Hitler and Göring. He also knows that all these works of art—or, at least, the greater part of them—were left where they were at first, especially in the East, and were only brought to the Reich when it was no longer safe to delay.

I beg the Tribunal to hear this important witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, can you explain why the application was withdrawn on the 24th of January?

DR. THOMA: It was said then—I think by the British or American Prosecution—that the Special Staff would not be mentioned again during the proceedings. The French Prosecution, however, have now given detailed accounts of the looting of France; and so this witness is once more required.

THE PRESIDENT: That concludes your witnesses, I think?

DR. THOMA: I have one other request. I want to call a further witness, and I have already filed a request with the General Secretary for this witness, ministerial Subdirector Bräutigam. Bräutigam was Junior Assistant Secretary in the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and he is to be called as a witness to prove that Rosenberg, in his capacity of Reich Minister for Occupied Eastern Territories, did not persecute the churches but granted freedom to all religious sects by the issue of an edict of tolerance; that, further, Rosenberg himself consistently opposed the use of force, supported a policy of promoting culture and represented the view that the peasant class should be strengthened and established on a healthy basis. Further—and this seems to me to be particularly significant—that very many letters and telegrams of thanks from the clergy in the Soviet Union arrived at the ministry for Occupied Eastern Territories addressed to Rosenberg. Gentlemen, if Dankers and Astrowski are not granted as witnesses, then I request permission to go back to Bräutigam.

And then I have one further witness. To show how Rosenberg behaved towards his academic opponents, I should like to call one of these academic opponents, to wit, Dr. Kuenneth, a university professor who wrote an important book attacking the _Mythos_. He will testify that those who disagreed with Rosenberg’s philosophy were not at all afraid of the Gestapo and that they had no cause to fear the Gestapo.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Sir David, did you want to review those last two?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, in my submission these last two witnesses are not really relevant to the charges against this defendant which have been developed by the Prosecution. They are general witnesses, and if I may put it—I hope the Tribunal will not think it flippant to put it this way—they are really witnesses who say that the Defendant Rosenberg would not hurt a fly; we have often seen him doing it—not hurting flies. That really puts it quite briefly as to what this class of evidence amounts to, and I respectfully submit, on behalf of my colleagues, that that should not be the subject of oral evidence, and it should be disallowed; or if there is any special point raised, it should be dealt with by an affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the Indictment allege that he instigated the persecution of churches?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Indictment says that he took part in antireligious teaching. I am speaking from memory. That is one of the matters. And I think there was certain correspondence between him and the Defendant Bormann, which was directed towards his antireligious views. I do not remember at the moment that there was any evidence that he had personally participated in physical destruction of churches. That is my recollection.

My Lord, I am reminded that there is a general allegation in Appendix A that he authorized, directed, and participated in the War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, including a wide variety of crimes against persons and property.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well; those matters will be considered.

DR. SEIDL: The first witness that I ask be summoned is Dr. Hans Bühler, State Secretary with the Chief of the Administration in the Government General. This witness is detained here in Nuremberg, pending trial; and he is the most important witness for the Defendant Dr. Frank. He is called for Dr. Frank’s whole policy in the Government General, since he was head of the government during the entire period from the establishment of the Government General up to the end.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, have you got any objection to Dr. Bühler?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, I have not, My Lord. The only point that I want to make clear is that the Defendant Frank calls an enormous number of witnesses from his own officials; he calls something like 15. And I am not going to object to Dr. Bühler; I am going to ask the Tribunal to cut down substantially the witnesses who were officials of the Government General. And it might help Dr. Seidl if I told him before the adjournment that my suggestion would be that the Tribunal would consider allowing Dr. Bühler, an affidavit from Dr. Von Burgsdorff, and that they might consider allowing Fräulein Helene Kraffczyk, the defendant’s secretary, and Dr. Bilfinger, and Dr. Stepp, but not the succession of officials from the Government General.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, you say your suggestion is to allow Dr. Bühler?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Bühler.

THE PRESIDENT: And affidavits from. . .

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Affidavits from Burgsdorff, allow Dr. Lammers—he is in the general list. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Allow the private secretary, Fräulein Kraffczyk, Number 7, and allow Numbers 9 and 10.

THE PRESIDENT: What are the names?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Bilfinger and Dr. Stepp.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And if these are allowed, I should suggest that Numbers 13 to 20, who are various officials from the office of the Government General, should not be allowed. If I may say so, with the submission of the Prosecution, the height of irrelevancy will be Number 18, Dr. Eisfeldt, who is chief of the Forestry Department.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I thought it might be convenient for Dr. Seidl to know what the views of the Prosecution were. Of course, if he has any suggestions of any alternatives we should be pleased to consider them.

THE PRESIDENT: We will continue with that after the adjournment, Dr. Seidl.

Before the Tribunal rises, before the adjournment, I want to say that the Tribunal will rise this afternoon at 3:30.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Seidl.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, Your Honors, if I understand correctly, Sir David has no objection to the calling of the witnesses Dr. Hans Bühler, Dr. Bilfinger, and Fräulein Kraffczyk.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: The second witness named by me is Dr. Von Burgsdorff, whose last appointment was that of Governor of Kraków. He is at present in the Moosburg Internment Camp, which means that he is close to Nuremberg.

The witness Dr. Von Burgsdorff is the only one of the nine governors whom I have named to the Court as a witness. Considering the importance of the position of the governors in the Government General and in view of the great difficulties which these governors had to overcome, it seems proper to me that the witness Dr. Von Burgsdorff should be heard personally by the Court and not by means of an interrogatory.

Is it necessary for me to read out the evidence material in detail now, or is it enough to refer to the application for evidence?

THE PRESIDENT: We have got it in writing, and we understand that, while Sir David suggests an affidavit, you want to insist upon his coming personally.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President, since the Court approved the calling of this witness at an earlier date.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellery Dr. Lammers. This witness has already been approved for the Defendant Keitel, so that no further discussion is necessary.

The fourth witness is State Minister Dr. Meissner. With regard to the fact that this witness is called in connection with evidence for which the witness Dr. Lammers was also named, I should like to ask the Tribunal to allow an interrogatory unless this witness is called for another defendant and can appear in person.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I did check that point as far as I could from my records, and I could not find that he was being called as a witness for any other defendant. And, as Dr. Seidl very fairly says in his first sentence, Dr. Meissner is named for the same evidence material as the witness Dr. Lammers. That is my point.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Dr. Max Meidinger, former Chief of the Chancellery of the Government General, who, like Dr. Von Burgsdorff, is in Moosburg. My written application shows that this witness held a very important appointment. He received all the correspondence of the administration of the Government General and is acquainted in particular with the substance, with suggestions and complaints addressed by the Defendant Dr. Frank to the central government authorities in Berlin, and in particular with the proposals which the Defendant Dr. Frank repeatedly made to the Führer himself.

The witness was likewise approved previously by the Tribunal, and I think that considering the vast knowledge of this witness—he worked in the Government General for several years—a personal hearing before this Court seems advisable.

THE PRESIDENT: You say he was approved. Was he not approved as one out of a group of which Frank was to choose three? There was a large group of witnesses.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President. The witnesses Von Burgsdorff and Dr. Max Meidinger were chosen from this group. Those are the two witnesses who were selected from a group of 13.

THE PRESIDENT: Which was the other one?

DR. SEIDL: The other one was witness Number 2, Dr. Von Burgsdorff. Witness Number 6, whom I have named and whom I should like to have called in person, is the witness Hans Gassner. His last appointment was that of press chief of the Government General, and he is also in the Moosburg Internment Camp. He was named, along with some others, to give evidence that the Defendant Frank did not hear of the existence of the camp of Maidanek and the conditions prevailing there until 1944, and then only because the witness informed him of reports published by the foreign press.

The witness was also present—this is not stated in my application—when Dr. Frank told a press reporter that the forests of Poland would not be large enough to publish the death warrants. The witness will also be able to describe the interview in detail, to say what Frank meant by this remark, how he intended it to be understood, and what his reasons were for making the remark.

I may add that the Court likewise approved this witness at an earlier date. I may say also, generally speaking, that, according to the wishes of the Tribunal, my applications for evidence will only indicate the general lines on which the witnesses are to be questioned and that I have consciously refrained from formulating the separate questions which I intend to put to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, will you express your view about Number 6?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases, it seemed to the Prosecution that the second matter which Herr Gassner was desired to speak about, that the Defendant Frank learned from him only in 1944 about Maidanek, is really a matter about which no witness can be as satisfactory as the defendant himself. All the witness can say is, “I told the Defendant Frank about Maidanek, and it appeared to me that he did not know anything about it.” Well, that is not, in the view of the Prosecution, satisfactory evidence.

The Court will be able to judge from the Defendant Frank himself when he has been cross-examined on that point. If it is desired that that interview should be before the Court, the Prosecution submit that it could be adequately dealt with by an affidavit or an interrogatory. Apart from that, the grounds are entirely general and again could be covered by a written statement.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, the next one Sir David has already expressed his views on.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President.

The next witness is Helene Kraffczyk, the defendant’s last secretary. If I understand correctly, there are no objections on the part of the Prosecution.

Witness Number 8 is General Von Epp, the last Reich Governor of Bavaria. He is at present in the internment camp at Oberursel. The statements to be made by this witness will be mainly concerned with the attitude of the Defendant Frank towards the concentration camps in 1933. As the witness is at present in the neighborhood of Frankfurt, I should be satisfied in this case with an interrogatory.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Sir David?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Lordship will see that General Ritter von Epp seems to cover the same incident as Dr. Stepp. I said that I would not object to Dr. Stepp, but if Dr. Seidl wishes an interrogatory on some specific points from General Ritter von Epp, I should not make any objections.

DR. SEIDL: The next witness, Number 9, is Dr. Rudolf Bilfinger, late Oberregierungsrat and SS Obersturmbannführer in the Reich Security Main Office. This witness is already here in Nuremberg. The Prosecution apparently has no objection to the hearing of this witness.

The next witness, Number 10. . .

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: [_Interposing_] My Lord, I would just like to say one word about Dr. Bilfinger. I want the Tribunal to understand what the Prosecution have in mind. The general plan for these witnesses is to show from both ends the relationship between the Defendant Frank and the central agencies. The Prosecution thought that it was right that the defendant should be allowed to call two or three members of his own staff and a member from headquarters, who was in the position of Dr. Bilfinger, to give the other side of the picture. I just wanted the Tribunal to understand the plan on which we were working.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SEIDL: Number 10 is Dr. Walter Stepp, former chief judge of the highest regional court of appeal in Munich. He is at present in the internment camp at Ludwigsburg. If I understand Sir David correctly, he has no objection to the calling of this witness.

I should be glad if in this case I could submit to the Court an affidavit which is in my possession, and which will prove the veracity of these points. The reading of this affidavit would only take a few minutes, if the Court would permit me to call another witness instead, or if it would withdraw its objection to my calling another witness. . .

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE; I have to ask for some notice as to who the other witness is. I was stating that I had no objection to Dr. Stepp, because he speaks as to the Defendant Frank’s position in relation to other people in Bavaria in earlier years. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of my colleagues and accept just another witness blindly until I know who the witness is and what he is going to say.

DR. SEIDL: The witness is Dr. Max Meidinger.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want to be as reasonable as possible. The reason that I had objected to Dr. Meidinger was because, as the Tribunal will see under Number 7, it is stated that Fräulein Kraffczyk is called for positive facts for which the witness Dr. Meidinger has already been named. It seemed to me that the private secretary is probably the most useful witness, but I am afraid that I cannot help Dr. Seidl any further. I have put my view, but I shall not say anything further against him. I am afraid that is as far as I can go on that point.

DR. SEIDL: The next witness, Number 11, is Von dem Bach-Zelewski, SS Obergruppenführer and general of the Waffen-SS, who has already been heard by this Tribunal as a witness for the Prosecution. The Court has already at an earlier date granted permission for an interrogatory. In the meantime I have spoken to the witness. He has made an affidavit, which I shall submit instead of calling him in person.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should have thought that it would be most convenient if the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski came back, and then Dr. Seidl could put any affidavit to him if he wanted. We might want to re-examine on the point. I do not know what is in the affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Was he cross-examined by Dr. Seidl?

DR. SEIDL: When the witness was heard here I had no opportunity to cross-examine him, and for that reason. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Why did you have no opportunity to cross-examine him?

DR. SEIDL: Because I did not know beforehand that he would be called by the Prosecution as a witness and had no opportunity to speak to the Defendant Frank about the questions which might have been put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will consider whether the witness ought to be recalled for cross-examination or whether you will be allowed to call him yourself. The affidavit which you say he has made, has that been submitted to the Prosecution?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not seen it, My Lord.

DR. SEIDL: No, Mr. President, my opinion on this point is the following. . .

THE PRESIDENT: When you saw Von dem Bach-Zelewski did you see him with a representative of the Prosecution?

DR. SEIDL: No, Mr. President, the General Secretary himself granted me permission to speak to the witness, and that was after the Court had already approved the use of an interrogatory.

THE PRESIDENT: But when the witness was called by the Prosecution and you had the opportunity of cross-examination, if you were not ready to cross-examine, you ought to have asked to cross-examine him at a later date. I mean if you were not able to cross-examine at that time, because you had not had any communication with the Defendant Frank on the subject, you ought to have asked to cross-examine at a later date.

DR. SEIDL: I could have made this application to the Court if I had thought that there was any reason for questioning the witness. I did not find out until later that the witness possessed any vital information relevant to Frank’s case.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will consider the matter.

DR. SEIDL: May I perhaps add something to this point? The difficulty of a cross-examination is just this, that we do not learn of the intended calling of a witness by the Prosecution until the witness is led into the courtroom, and we do not know the subject of the evidence until the Prosecution start to examine the witness. It would have been much easier for us to cross-examine, if we had received information about the witnesses and the subjects of evidence as far in advance as the Prosecution—that is, as the Prosecution is informed about the witnesses for the Defense.

The next witness is witness Number 12, Von Palezieux. His last appointment was that of art expert in the Government General. In regard to this witness I should like to suggest that an interrogatory might be granted in this case too.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Dr. Seidl asks for an interrogatory, I have no objection. I just want to be clear that that is a written interrogatory. I do not want Dr. Seidl to be under a misapprehension.

THE PRESIDENT: You meant a written interrogatory, did you not, Dr. Seidl?

DR. SEIDL: Yes; I assume that in cases where a written interrogatory is admitted the submission of an affidavit is also admitted by the Court. The purpose is obviously to avoid bringing witnesses here and thus to save time.

The next witness is Number 13, Dr. Böpple. His last appointment was that of State Secretary in the administration of the Government General. He is now in the internment camp at Ludwigsburg near Stuttgart. This witness seems to me to be one of the most important because in the administration of the Government General he answered a number of questions which play an important part in the case against the Defendant Frank. I may refer to the details in my list of evidence and should like to add, above all, that this witness can give detailed information as to whether, during the 5 years of the Government General’s existence, the industrial equipment of the area was exploited or whether in 1943 and 1944, as a result of transfers from the Reich, the Government General did not possess a considerably greater industrial potential than before.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Prosecution submit that, as is stated in the first sentence, Dr. Böpple is called for a number of facts of evidence for which Dr. Bühler has been already generally mentioned. Part of the evidence stated is the relationship with the Government General agencies, and the remainder, as to the happenings in the Government General, can be dealt with by the witness already agreed to by the Prosecution.

DR. SEIDL: It is correct that some of the things which Dr. Böpple is to confirm are also to be testified to by Bühler. But in my opinion it cannot be denied that the subject of evidence for which I have named this witness is so important that one witness might not be sufficient to convince the Court.

I should like furthermore to point out the following: The witness Bühler was chief of the administration of the Government General. He has already been interrogated many times by the Polish Delegation as well. There is a danger that proceedings may be instituted against this witness as well, on account of the importance of the position he held. It is self-evident that under these circumstances every conscientious Defense Counsel should take into account the fact that the witness may try to shield himself when he answers certain questions; and considering the importance of the evidence, it seems proper that, in these difficult circumstances, the Defendant Frank be granted additional witnesses.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in your suggestion, did you include any of the other witnesses who were cumulative to Bühler?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I suggested an affidavit from Böpple and only Fräulein Kraffczyk on the general work of the Government General. The others, I think, are on the different points of the relationship with the central agencies.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.

DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Number 14, President Struve, whose last appointment was that of chief of the main labor department of the Government General. In other words, he was Minister for Labor in the Government General. Since both the United States Prosecution and the Russian Prosecution have made grave charges against the Defendant Dr. Frank on this very point of the alleged compulsory transfer of workers, it seems to me proper that one witness at least—the competent official—should be examined on the facts presented by the Prosecution so that he can say what orders he received on the subject from the Government General. Information as to the location of this witness has also been obtained. He is in an internment camp near Paderborn.