Chapter XXVIII: Section C: of my Appendix A, that the crimes of the SS were committed, (10)

DR. SIEMERS: I shall submit information on this matter shortly. I do not want to name the witness before I have talked it over with him.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, the Tribunal has no objection to your applying in respect of other witnesses, provided that you do so by tomorrow.

DR. SIEMERS: Very well, I know that, at the moment, the witness in question is not in Nuremberg, so that I cannot talk to him at the moment. I ask the Tribunal to pardon me for being so cautious. The Tribunal will be cognizant of the fact that witnesses have been taken into custody. I cannot take the responsibility for somebody’s being taken into custody because I named him as a witness. That is the reason. I shall, however, notify the Tribunal as soon as the witness is in Nuremberg and I have had a chance to speak to him. I shall do so within 24 hours. It is here a question of a testimony which would take 10 minutes at the most of the Court’s time. Therefore, I do not believe that this will burden the Tribunal too much.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SIEMERS: Then I should like to add that I can give the address of the witness Severing, retired Reich Minister. I received it yesterday by telegraph. Witness Severing is Number 3 and the Prosecution is agreeable to his being heard. I shall submit the address in writing to the General Secretary. He is in Bielefeld and can be reached without trouble.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. If you give it to the General Secretary, that is all that is required. And now would probably be a convenient time to break off for 10 minutes.

MR. DODD: Your Honor. There is the matter of Admiral Bürckner. So far as we know, Dr. Siemers made one request about Admiral Bürckner some time ago, and at that time he was told, as I understand it, that Admiral Bürckner was to be called or that the Prosecution intended to call him as a witness, and that therefore we did not think it proper for him to talk to Admiral Bürckner until after we had called him as a witness.

Up to a very late date in this presentation of our case, we still had in mind calling Admiral Bürckner. I think some reference was made to him, as a matter of fact, before the Tribunal, with reference to the witness Lahousen. And it was for that reason that we told Dr. Siemers that we did not think he should talk to the witness until after he had testified or a decision had been made with reference to his testimony. But we have at all times tried to co-operate with the Defense and make available these people who are here in custody so that they may talk with them.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for 10 minutes.

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. SIEMERS: May I add something regarding the witnesses? Concerning witness Number 1, Marinedekan Ronneberger, I agree to use an affidavit as suggested by Sir David. Concerning the witness Bürckner, I would like to mention that Mr. Dodd’s statement is based on an error. I am not permitted to speak to the witness, because he has not yet been approved by the Tribunal as my witness. No other reason was given.

THE PRESIDENT: We do not think any further discussion is necessary about this witness. I have already stated what the members of the Tribunal will act upon.

DR. SIEMERS: I did not understand whether Mr. Dodd agreed to my speaking with the witness Bürckner now.

THE PRESIDENT: I think he said so. He said the Prosecution have closed their case, and they now have no longer any objection to your seeing the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: Then one last remark. The Tribunal will have noticed that I have not requested any witness concerning naval warfare and submarine warfare. The reason is that I have agreed with Dr. Kranzbühler that Dr. Kranzbühler will deal with the entire complex of naval warfare and submarine warfare, although, in this respect, it not only affects Grossadmiral Dönitz, but also in a considerable degree Grossadmiral Raeder in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Therefore, insofar as the interests of Grossadmiral Raeder are concerned in this matter, Dr. Kranzbühler will also represent him.

I should like to point out only that Dr. Kranzbühler’s very important application regarding the questions to Admiral Nimitz not only affects Grossadmiral Dönitz but, in particular, Grossadmiral Raeder, and beyond that, the organization of the General Staff, insofar as the Navy is concerned.

May I pass to the documents now?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: With regard to Document Number 1, The War Diaries of the Seekriegsleitung and the B.d.U., Dr. Kranzbühler’s assistant Dr. Meckel, has gone to London to work on these at the Admiralty.

With regard to Number 2, Weyer’s _Navy Diary_, and Nautikus’ _Navy Year Book_, there is no objection to Dr. Siemers having these. He will indicate in the ordinary way the passages he intends to use.

With regard to General Marshall’s report of 10 October 1945, I cannot see the relevancy of it at the moment, but if Dr. Siemers will indicate which part he intends to use, it can be discussed when he actually presents it to the Tribunal.

Now Number 4, the British Admiralty documents, May 1939 to April 1940, which are wanted as to the preparations of landing in Scandinavia and Finland. Although, strictly, what is relevant is what was known to the Defendant Raeder, I shall make inquiries about these documents, and if the Tribunal will give me a short time, I hope to be able to report to the Tribunal upon them.

I want to make it clear that I cannot, of course, undertake to give details on Allied documents; but I hope to be able to produce some documents which may be helpful to the Tribunal, and deal with them authoritatively. I would rather not be pressed for details at the moment.

DR. SIEMERS: I agree with Sir David, I hope that I will receive the books which belong to Number 2 and Number 3 soon, because otherwise a delay may be caused. The report of General Marshall of 10 October 1945 is, as far as I can judge from the excerpts, important for the reason that General Marshall adopts, on various points, an entirely different attitude from Justice Jackson’s. I believe that a comparison of two such outstanding opinions is of sufficient importance to have the report of General Marshall also heard here. Concerning Number 4, I am waiting for the final decision of the Prosecution.

I have only one more request, and I ask to be excused, since, by error, I have not listed this Number 5. It is the following: The Prosecution has repeatedly presented quotations from the book _Mein Kampf_ by Adolf Hitler and inferred from it that each one of the defendants who held a leading position as early as 1933 should have known from this book, even before 1933, that Hitler was contemplating the launching of aggressive wars. I noticed that the quotations in the document book which was presented in November are all taken from an edition which was published only in 1933. The edition of 1933, however, differs in many points from the original edition. Unfortunately, I am personally only in possession of an edition which was published after 1933. In order to check these questions, that is to say, in order to see what anybody could have read in this book in 1928, and not 1933, I ask the Prosecution to try to submit a copy of the first edition. As far as I know, the first edition was published in 1925, and the second in 1927, by the publishing firm of Franz Eher.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We shall try to get an earlier edition, so that Dr. Siemers can compare the passages.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to deal with Page 2 of your document? Sir David, you have not dealt with this, have you?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. I assume, Your Lordship, that Dr. Siemers would, in due course, indicate what excerpts he was going to use. We could discuss when he presents them, whether the Prosecution have any objection.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. You intended, Dr. Siemers, I suppose, to indicate the passages upon which you rely in your document book?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We have already discussed the point on Page 3, that is the question of tonnages built, and so on—I said I am making inquiries with regard to that.

THE PRESIDENT: My attention is drawn, Sir David, to Paragraph 4 B on Page 2. Are you suggesting that the Tribunal supply him with documents on German policy without any further reservation?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very sorry. It was an oversight. I took it that that was included in the words at the top of the page:

“In addition, I shall submit documents and affidavits, some of
which are already in my possession, and some of which I shall
procure myself without having the assistance of the
Prosecution.”

I took it that Dr. Siemers had certain documents on German policy, and will indicate what passages he is going to use. I am very sorry I did not refer to that.

THE PRESIDENT: Does this part of the application mean that, with reference to all these documents, Dr. Siemers has them and does not wish any further action to be taken with reference to them?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT: I call on counsel for the Defendant Von Schirach.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Sauter suggests it would be convenient if I indicate the view of the Prosecution.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May I ask the Tribunal to note that Dr. Sauter is asking for witnesses 1 to 8, except witness 5, as oral witnesses; that is, he is asking for seven oral witnesses, and Numbers 5 and 9 to 13 by way of affidavit.

The Prosecution suggest that, as far as oral witnesses are concerned, the defendant might have Number 1 or Number 2. that is, Wieshofer or Hoepken, because these witnesses appear to cover the same ground; that he might have Number 3, the witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the Reich Youth Leadership (Reichsjugendführung); and, also, that he might have Number 8, that is Professor Heinrich Hoffmann, who, I think, is Schirach’s father-in-law—since the description of his evidence takes up nine pages of the application, he is obviously a very important witness.

Then the Prosecution suggest that there might be affidavits from Number 5, Scharizer, who was the deputy Gauleiter of Vienna; Number 11, who is Madame Vasso; Number 12, Herr Schneeberger; and Number 13, Field Marshal Von Blomberg.

The witnesses that the Prosecution find difficulty in perceiving the necessity for are: First of all, Number 4, Frau Hoepken—there are no details given in this application, except that she was secretary to Von Schirach; Number 6, the witness Heinz Schmidt, who apparently repeats part of the evidence of the witness Lauterbacher word for word; Number 7, Dr. Schlünder, who also repeats the witness Lauterbacher word for word; and Number 9, Dr. Klingspor, who passes a personal view on the defendant, which, in the submission of the Prosecution, is not really helpful evidence; and finally, Dr. Roesen, Number 10, who speaks as to an isolated incident of kindness on the part of the defendant to the family of the musician Richard Strauss.

This is the position which the Prosecution take with regard to the witnesses.

DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, I have, in the case of Baldur von Schirach also, limited my evidence as much as possible. For a personal hearing, here before the Tribunal, I have proposed as witnesses, Numbers 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8, and I must earnestly request you, Your Honors, to grant me these witnesses.

The difficulty, in the case of Schirach, as regards the presentation of evidence, is that evidence must be produced and offered for two entirely separate complexes. One is the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach in his capacity as Reich Youth Leader; and the second is his activity in Vienna, during the period from 1940 to 1945, in which he still exercised certain functions in Youth Leadership in addition to his main duties. Therefore, I need witnesses for both these activities of the Defendant Von Schirach.

In addition to this difficulty there is still another one. The Defendant Von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, and that implied that practically without exception all his collaborators were relatively young people who during the second World War served a long time in the Army. Therefore it is quite possible that for a few years during the World War one witness might know nothing at all, because he did not work on the staff of the Defendant Von Schirach during this time; and that therefore, for this time, another collaborator of Schirach will have to be called upon, in order to give information on his activity.

Your Honors, in earlier written applications I had requested more witnesses, but I have omitted these additional witnesses right from the beginning in the application now submitted to you, in order to contribute thus, as far as I can, to expediting the procedure. But, Your Honors, these six witnesses that I have requested to have brought before the Tribunal I really must have granted me for, if a clear picture of Schirach’s activities is to be gained, I cannot forego any one of them. I may also point out that all these six witnesses that I have listed under the numbers given, for the purpose of calling them, have already been approved by the Tribunal, so that the new approval will consist only of a repetition of your own earlier decision.

The witness Wieshofer, Your Honors, who is listed under Number 1, was from 1940 to 1945 adjutant of the Defendant Von Schirach; that is to say, during the period that covers the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Gauleiter of Vienna and Reichsstatthalter.

This collaborator, who was with the Defendant Schirach daily and who knew him very well, has been named by me particularly for the purpose of testifying—although, of course, he will also testify on other things—that Schirach, in his capacity as Gauleiter of Vienna, pursued an entirely different policy to that of his predecessor, the former Gauleiter Bürckel; that he, contrary to Bürckel, endeavored to establish correct relations with the Catholic Church, and that, with this aim in mind, he successfully influenced and instructed also his collaborators and subordinates. I say successfully, because these efforts by the Defendant Von Schirach to bring about satisfactory relations with the Catholic Church have also been repeatedly acknowledged on the part of the Church, as well as by the Catholic population of Vienna.

Besides, the witness Wieshofer will also corroborate that the Defendant Von Schirach had nothing at all to do with the deportation of Jews from Vienna; that this matter of the Jews was. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Do not Numbers 1 and 2, Wieshofer and Hoepken, really deal substantially with the same subject? Would it not be sufficient if one were called as a witness and if the other one gave evidence by interrogatory?

DR. SAUTER: I do not quite think so, Mr. President, because the witness Hoepken, who is listed under Number 2, was a collaborator of the Defendant Von Schirach as early as 1938, in the Reich Youth Leadership, and because he is supposed to give information especially about the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Reich Youth Leader and in particular also about his efforts to bring about understanding and friendship with the youth of other nations, such as, for instance, England and France. I believe, Your Honors, that with regard to the specific importance of these particular questions, the attitude of the Defendant Von Schirach in the naming of witnesses should be given recognition here, and that not one witness only, but both should be granted. I have submitted the addresses of both witnesses to the Tribunal. They are in a camp, and I believe, Your Honors, it is imperative to summon both witnesses to establish the facts.

THE PRESIDENT: I still do not follow what the essential difference is between the two.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have just pointed out that the witness Number 2, Hoepken, had a leading position in the Reich Youth Leadership, and that therefore the witness Number 2, Hoepken, is in a position to give information especially about the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Reich Youth Leader.

THE PRESIDENT: But Dr. Sauter, you stated that Wieshofer, Number 1, was adjutant to Schirach in his capacity as Reichsleiter of Education of Youth, so that he was in just as close contact with the defendant on the question of the education of youth as Hoepken.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, but youth education was Hoepken’s main official task while the activity of the witness Wieshofer was limited mainly to the job of adjutant to the Defendant Von Schirach, primarily in his capacity as Gauleiter in Vienna. That is the main difference, and the witnesses who could provide information about his activity in Vienna are mainly the witness Wieshofer and, to a small extent, also Hoepken. But I need Hoepken, by all means, as I said, for the clarification of the activity of Schirach in the Reich Youth Leadership.

Mr. President, may I also point out that much is at stake for the Defendant Von Schirach, and that, from the point of view of the Court, it should really not make much difference, in a matter so important to Schirach, whether one witness or two witnesses are called.

Your Honors, I could have suggested perhaps four witnesses in the hope that two would then be granted. If now, in the name of the Defendant Von Schirach, I am proposing to call only two witnesses, I would not think it very just if one of these two witnesses should be denied.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider what you have said.

DR. SAUTER: Furthermore, Your Honors, in the third place, I have to request Hartmann Lauterbacher. If I have understood correctly, the Prosecution agree to this; therefore, I can be brief.

The witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the Reich Youth Leadership, is in a position to supply information especially about the fact that the Defendant Schirach in no way prepared the youth psychologically and pedagogically for the war, and by no means for an aggressive war. Furthermore, he can testify that the allegations of a Polish report—presented by the Russian Prosecution in one of the sessions during February, I believe on 9 February 1946—are definitely false. According to this report, the Hitler Youth had used spies and parachute agents in Poland. And this is false and the witness Lauterbacher will refute it. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, Sir David said he would not object to Number 3 being called as a witness, but what he did object to was 6 and 7, whom you are also asking for, as oral witnesses, because he said that they repeated what Lauterbacher said—Numbers 6 and 7, that is Schmidt and Schlünder.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, there again is the difficulty which I pointed out before. From the Polish Government report which was read by the Soviet Prosecution on 9 February 1946, it cannot be seen in what period these activities concerning the Hitler Youth agents and spies are to have taken place.

Now it may happen here that, if I have only one witness, it will be alleged that it was at some other time, perhaps at a time when this witness was in the Army; and that is why, in the interest of a complete clarification of these facts, I have asked to have witness Number 6 heard also. That is the witness Schmidt.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, if you say that, does it not appear that, with reference to Schlünder, his collaboration with the defendant extended from 1933 to 1945 and therefore if he were called or were to give an affidavit or an interrogatory, and Lauterbacher, who extends only from 1933 to 1940, you would cover the whole period and you could exclude Schmidt?

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Mr. President, you are referring to an interrogatory in the case of Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: No, Sir David was prepared to have Lauterbacher called as a witness.

DR. SAUTER: Lauterbacher is to be called as a witness and Schmidt is to receive an interrogatory?

THE PRESIDENT: He said that Schmidt and Schlünder were cumulative. Then you said they did not relate to the same period, as I understood you, and that might raise a difficulty. So I pointed out to you that Number 7 related to the whole period, that is to say from 1933, beyond the period dealt with by Lauterbacher, and goes to 1945, and therefore, if he were called, that would cover the whole period, and if you called Lauterbacher and Schlünder and left out Schmidt. . .

DR. SAUTER: You mean that an interrogatory is to be obtained from Schmidt? I am agreeable to that.

THE PRESIDENT: The statements which you make with reference to Schmidt and to Schlünder are practically identical.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, only they refer to different periods, as each of them was in the Army. If one of them comes, he cannot say anything, of course, about the time during which he served in the Army. He cannot give any information as to whether, during his military service, agents were used.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not know about that. You have stated that they were collaborators with the defendant from 1938 to 1945 in the one case, and from 1933 to 1945 in the other case, and therefore, if that is correct, they cannot have been in the Army; they cannot have taken an active part in the Army.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should be quite prepared to agree to the suggestion that Your Lordship put forward; that would then cover the whole period. If both Lauterbacher and Schlünder were called, it would dispense with the necessity for Schmidt.

DR. SAUTER: May I point out, Mr. President, that in any case I need Schlünder, who, by the way, was arrested a few weeks ago, because he was a specialist for physical training with the Reich Youth Leadership, and because, therefore, I want to prove, especially through Dr. Schlünder, that the education of the youth, as administered by the Defendant Von Schirach, was absolutely neither extraordinary nor militaristic. The Defendant Von Schirach has thus far, during the entire procedure in his interrogations. . .

THE PRESIDENT: I think, really, there is a substantial agreement between you and Sir David that Number 1 and Number 3 certainly should be called and that Number 7 might be called; but I do not know whether Sir David agrees that an affidavit or an interrogatory might be given by Number 6.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection to that, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: That is substantially what you want, Dr. Sauter?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well; let us get on then.

DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, I have then, in addition, under Number 4, listed an affidavit by a witness, Maria Hoepken. I shall submit this affidavit, which is already in my possession, to the Tribunal and to the Prosecution, along with my document book, sufficiently in advance.

Then I have also affidavits in my possession, if I may mention that now, from two witnesses: Number 9, Dr. Klingspor, and Number 10, Dr. Roesen. The same thing applies here. The Tribunal and the Prosecution will receive these two affidavits in time, together with my document book.

Concerning Number 8, the witness Hoffmann, the Prosecution agree to having him called as a witness since this witness is here in Nuremberg. Therefore I believe that I do not have to make any detailed statements concerning this witness.

The same applies to Number 12 and Number 13. These are two witnesses: One a Gauobmann Schneeberger from Vienna, who, primarily, is to inform us on the attitude of the defendant on the question of foreign workers during the time of his activity as Gauleiter in Vienna; and Number 13, Field Marshal Von Blomberg, who is to inform us on the attitude of the Defendant Von Schirach on the question of the premilitary education of the youth, on the question of physical training, and on the question of patriotic education of youth. The Prosecution agree to interrogatories from these two witnesses—which I have already suggested myself.

And now, Your Honors, I come to the one figure on my list which is closest to the heart of my client and myself. It is Number 11; that is the application to examine a French woman by the name of Ida Vasso. Of this witness, Ida Vasso, we have heard in court for the first time when the Soviet Prosecution submitted a commission “Report on the Atrocities of the Fascist-German Invaders in the Lvov Area,” as the title reads—Document Number USSR-6.

This document contains a sentence to the effect that a French woman, Ida Vasso, who was working in a children’s home in Lvov, had reported that the Hitler Youth had committed special atrocities in Lvov. It was alleged that from the ghetto small children were sold; however, it was not revealed by whom and to whom these children were to have been sold; and yet, as a matter of course, it is the Hitler Youth who are said to have used these children as targets.

Your Honors, we are fully aware that such happenings would represent a quite extraordinary atrocity, and I can tell you that none of all the presentations of the Prosecution during the last three months has so distressed the Defendant Schirach, as has this statement. The Defendant Schirach has always, even in his earlier interrogations, maintained that he assumes full responsibility for the education and training of the German Youth, as directed by him; and that he is ready and willing, even as a defendant here, to explain to the Tribunal what principles guided him, what aims he had, and what successes he achieved. He has, for instance, never denied that this youth training was based on patriotism. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you are only applying for witnesses now, are you not? You see, you agree in your application to an affidavit. . .

DR. SAUTER: I did not understand, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: What I was pointing out to you was that this is only an application with reference to witnesses, and in your application you say, “However, in consideration of the far distance of the witness from Nuremberg, I agree that at first an affidavit should be drawn up.”

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David agreed that an affidavit should be drawn up. So you are in agreement, and I do not understand why we should be troubled with further application.

DR. SAUTER: However, Mr. President, I have added something to my application. I have written that a personal appearance of this witness before the Tribunal would be useful so that she can be questioned, because her testimony is important for the judging of the Hitler Youth as a whole. I have also added. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Your application states that you reserve that right. Well, you can prepare the affidavit and then send it out to the witness, and then you can see whether you want the witness for cross-examination. And Sir David agrees to that course.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, my client attaches so much importance to this particular case for the following reasons: The HJ, that is the Hitler Youth, which he led, comprised about 8 million members. It was therefore larger than. . .

THE PRESIDENT: But Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal quite understands why the defendant is interested in the matter. But it seems to them it would be perfectly satisfactory if an affidavit were drawn up and sent to the witness; and then you can see whether you want the witness, whose present location is unknown, brought here personally.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, my client noticed one thing in particular, that is, that among 8 million members only one single case of atrocities occurred, of which he never heard anything at all in the Reich Youth Leadership. However, I agree to the obtaining of an affidavit for reasons of expediency; but for just this case I must reserve the right to have the witness called, if the affidavit should be insufficient.

THE PRESIDENT: That deals with the witnesses, and we had better adjourn now.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the documents for which Dr. Sauter asked, the Prosecution take the usual line that there is no general objection to extracts being used, but at this stage they reserve their right to challenge admissibility of the extracts on the grounds of relevance.

They will have to look particularly closely at Number 9, the book entitled, _Look, the Heart of Europe_, and the commentary on it by the late Lord Lloyd George, but they can see that these are particularly matters which can be more conveniently dealt with when they have seen the document book and the extracts are before them.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I can state my position regarding the documents very briefly. In the main, it is a question of books, speeches, and essays by the Defendant Von Schirach. These literary works are in my possession and I shall submit them to the Prosecution along with my document book. With the document book I shall submit to the Tribunal and the Prosecution the individual extracts which I propose to use as evidence, so that the Prosecution will still be able to make any statements it wishes with regard to the individual excerpts.

I believe that is all I have to say on that subject.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, on 28 February I made a supplementary motion on behalf of the Defendant Hess. I should be grateful if the Tribunal would inform me whether they wish to hear the argument in regard to this motion now or later, since I do not know whether the Tribunal have a translation of my motion in their hands.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal have not seen the application yet, so I think you had better postpone making the argument until the Tribunal has seen the application.

DR. SEIDL: Very well, Mr. President.

DR. SERVATIUS: For the Defendant Sauckel I have suggested a number of witnesses and in my preliminary remarks on the list I have divided them into various groups.

The peculiarity of this evidence, as presented, lies in the fact that in this case a mosaic of smaller facts has to be clarified. In its case against Sauckel the Prosecution confined itself to the production of incriminating material generally, and did not work out the full details about SS assignments carried out under the auspices of the Labor Service and similar matters.

Very few facts have been established at all with regard to Sauckel’s sphere of activity generally. I am compelled, in consequence, to present his staff, his collaborators, and their spheres of activity. At first sight my list of witnesses may appear cumulative, but closer inspection shows that they represent different fields. Some of them are experts on Eastern affairs, others deal with the West or South. There is the question of direction of manpower, supplies, housing, and the authority exercised by individuals. The recruitment of workers in foreign countries comes under another head; and witnesses must be heard on this subject, too.

In Sauckel’s case, the question of manpower is all-important and that of conspiracy is a secondary matter. I believe I can rely to a very great extent on the statements which may be expected from others among the accused and from their witnesses.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, the Prosecution have endeavored to follow Dr. Servatius in considering the suggested witnesses under various heads.

The first witness, Ambassador Abetz, falls into a class by himself. The defendant’s counsel wishes to call this witness on the question of agreements between him and Laval. The Prosecution submit that that cannot affect the position over, certainly, Occupied France, and suggested that this witness is really irrelevant to the main charges which have been made against the defendant. My French colleagues will, however, if Dr. Servatius desires it, let him know the effect of an interrogation of Ambassador Abetz with regard to this subject. I do not want to comment on it at the moment, because it is obviously a matter which Dr. Servatius should consider before any comment is made on it in court. But, if he will allow me to say so, I think it would be useful if he considered that point before any decision was come to.

Then, the next group are the witnesses 2 to 8. They all come from the Reich Ministry of Labor, and they are called to speak generally as to the defendant’s attitude, the limitations on him as regards recruiting, and his personal dealings with offenders. The Prosecution suggest that it will be reasonable for Dr. Servatius to select the two best out of eight for oral testimony, and two more to give affidavits.

The next three, Numbers 9, 10, and 11, were members of the Defendant Sauckel’s staff, who are sought to be called to give evidence as to his efforts to obtain good conditions. Again, the Prosecution suggest a selection, and put forward one witness and one affidavit.

Number 12, the witness Hoffmann, is called for the purpose of saying that the DAF, the Deutsche Arbeitsfront, looked after the welfare of foreign workers by agreement with the late Dr. Ley. The Prosecution submit that that witness would be cumulative, and object to him, as that subject is already covered.

Then there are a series of witnesses, Numbers 13 to 18, who deal with the relations and liaison between the Defendant Sauckel and the DAF. These are substantially still on the same point, and the Prosecution suggest that one witness and one affidavit out of that group would be sufficient.

The next witness, Number 19, Karl Goetz, bank director, deals with the question of wages, and also of the transmission of money to their homes by foreign workers. The Prosecution suggest that that is the sort of material which might conveniently be dealt with by an affidavit or an interrogatory, according to Dr. Servatius’ wishes.

Number 20, Beckurtz, deals with the special conditions of foreign workers at the Gustloff works. That subject has been thoroughly covered in general by previous witnesses, and the Prosecution suggest that this particular witness is cumulative.

With regard to Franz Seldte, from the Reich Ministry for Labor, he deals with the division of authority between Sauckel and Ley and the contention that Sauckel had nothing to do with labor from concentration camps. Again, the Prosecution suggest that an affidavit would show how far the witness Seldte is speaking merely of routine matters, such as orders and the like, and how far he is dealing with individual or personal matters. If he does in fact deal with individual and personal matters and interviews, then I suggest that Dr. Servatius could resume his application on that point.

The witness Darré, who was the former Reich Minister for Food and Agriculture, is sought in order to speak as to the defendant’s efforts to get higher food rations for foreign workers, especially in Eastern areas. The Prosecution suggest that this witness also is cumulative, and it will indicate a number of other witnesses and documents which deal with this point.

As to Number 23, General Reinecke, there is no objection.

Number 24, Colonel Frantz, is sought to say that French prisoners of war were exchanged against voluntary workers. The Prosecution object on the ground of irrelevance.

As to Number 25, there is no objection to Dr. Lammers, who is being called by, I think, every defendant, or practically every defendant.

The next, 26, the witness Peuckert, again deals with the administrative position and executive apparatus of Sauckel, which has already been treated by witnesses at considerable length, and the Prosecution object to this as cumulative.

Number 27, Governor Fischer, Chief of Labor in the Government General, is called to say that Sauckel had made dealings with the SS in regard to resettlement. Again, if he is speaking as to rules and orders that were laid down, we suggest an affidavit.

As I understand it, the next witness, Dr. Wilhelm Jäger, is asked for cross-examination on his affidavit. That is Exhibit Number USA-202 (Document Number D-288), and the references in the transcript are 1322 to 1327 (Volume III, Pages 441-446) and 3057 (Volume V, Page 509). No request was made at this time, and I leave it to Dr. Servatius to explain his position before dealing with this point.

The next two, Dr. Voss and Dr. Scharmann, deal with the public health aspect of foreign workers. They deal with different districts. The Prosecution submit that that question could be dealt with by one affidavit.

As to the next three witnesses, 31, 32, and 33, I think the position is that Dr. Servatius wants one of the three to dispute certain evidence given by M. Dubost on 28 January that the defendant authorized the evacuation of Buchenwald. I have looked, at Pages 3466 to 3492 of the transcript (Volume VI, Pages 242-263), but I cannot find the evidence which Dr. Servatius has in mind, and perhaps he would be good enough to indicate it to the Tribunal.

With regard to 34, Skorzeny, who is called to prove that the defendant, as Gauleiter, had nothing to do with concentration camps, we make no objection.

With regard to Schwarz, to prove that the chart of the Party produced before the Tribunal was incorrect in one respect, we suggested that that be allowed.

With regard to Frau Sauckel, who is desired in order that she may speak as to the defendant’s charitable disposition, irrespective of the Party, the Prosecution suggest that that is irrelevant to the issues before the Tribunal.

I think it is impossible in this case, My Lord, to leave the witnesses without asking the Tribunal to take a glance at the documents, because the two are interrelated.

There is an application for 97 sets of documents and in general they set out what we should call in England all the relevant statutory rules and orders, that is, the subsidiary legislation made with regard to the activities of this defendant. Frankly, I must say to the Tribunal that I have not had the opportunity of reading the original orders. I have read only the summary which Dr. Servatius has been good enough to provide in his application. But, quite clearly, these documents cover again in the greatest detail the various problems with which the respective sets of witnesses to be called deal, and, in the submission of the Prosecution, they provide a good reason and a fair ground for some considerable limitation of the oral witnesses.

There are certain of the documents to which my colleagues and myself take considerable objection, and I might just state two or three of these.

Number 45 deals with the Reich law for sanitary meat inspection, and is presented to prove especially that the German civilian population also received meat graded as inferior, which therefore could not be considered inedible meat. If one has not the comparison of the caloric and other properties of the meat, it is going to be extremely difficult to get any benefit from the evidence, if one is going into that. It is unreasonably detailed for the inquiries before the Tribunal.

If the Tribunal would then turn to Numbers 80 and 81; Dr. Servatius wishes to prove certain Soviet orders, apparently for the purpose of showing that the Soviet methods of mobilization were contrary to the Hague convention and are therefore evidence that the Hague Convention had become obsolete. I submit that the two small examples of this evidence indicate that there would have to be extensive examination of the facts surrounding them and they could not be the basis of a sound argument that a convention had been abrogated. It is possible that in rare cases international agreements may be abrogated by conquest. But evidence of that kind would, in my respectful submission, not be the basis of such an argument.

Then come Numbers 90 and 91, which are files of affidavits. There again it is very difficult, without serious and prolonged consideration of the circumstances under which each affidavit was made, to assess the values of bundles of affidavits of that kind.

Number 92 is a film of foreign workers, and I suggest that it would be reasonable if the representatives of the Prosecution were shown that film first, before it is shown in court—I think that was the course that was taken with regard to the concentration camp film—because, of course, without going into arguments at the moment, the question of propaganda is a serious one which the Prosecution are bound to consider. I have expressly refrained from further comment, but I think the Tribunal will see the point that is in my mind, and will, I hope, consider that it is reasonable that we should see the film before we are asked to comment on it further.

I have taken only certain examples in the documents because obviously they will have to be considered in detail when we see the text, and the Prosecution have to reserve their rights as to objection. But I make the general point—and I hope the Tribunal will think that it is a fair point, and I hope Dr. Servatius will not think that I am decrying his work; I am emphasizing the industry and care which he has shown in doing it—that with this immense body of documentation the witnesses in this case will want careful pruning. That, as I have said, indicates our general view.

THE PRESIDENT: Before you deal with what Sir David said, Dr. Servatius, I ought to say, for the information of other defendants’ counsel and other persons concerned, that the Tribunal proposes to adjourn today at 4 o’clock instead of 5 o’clock.

Sir David, I wanted to ask you: Throughout the discussion I think you referred to affidavits. Did you mean to particularize an affidavit as opposed to an interrogatory?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, My Lord. I did not. I am sorry. I really have not made that distinction. It is written evidence that I wish to refer to, either by affidavit or interrogatory, whichever Dr. Servatius wishes to have.

THE PRESIDENT: And one other question: In view of what you have said about the documents, would it not be a good thing for the Prosecution to have a little more time to consider the documents? And then perhaps they could give more help as to their view about the documents.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That would be so, My Lord, but Your Lordship will appreciate that we have been under considerable pressure in the last few weeks and it is impossible to cover them all, but we should be glad of a little time to go into the documents.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps you could see Dr. Servatius about them after the adjournment some time.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And in the course of a day or two, let us know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, we could do that.

THE PRESIDENT; Now, Dr. Servatius, will you deal with the witnesses?

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness Number 1, Ambassador Abetz. I name this witness to show Sauckel’s subjective conception of the admissibility of the Arbeitseinsatz from the point of view of international law. On the basis of the treaties, and in the absence of any protest from the governments of other countries—notably France—he was entitled to assume that it was legitimate. I am, however, willing to admit the witness Stothfang, who as Sauckel’s deputy repeatedly negotiated with Laval. If he is admitted, I would renounce the witness Abetz. In other words, I am to forego witness Number 1 if I am permitted witness Number 9.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see. What about witnesses 2 to 8?

DR. SERVATIUS: Witnesses from Sauckel’s staff. It is difficult to dispense with any witness; and one witness is absolutely necessary for the graphic illustration of the way in which orders were carried out in practice. The Tribunal would find it very difficult to read through this enormous number of laws, and it is easier to hear witnesses on the essential points than to undertake the amount of reading involved. The witness Timm is the most important, as for all practical purposes he was in charge of the so-called Europa Amt which was responsible for the actual distribution of the labor forces.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, Dr. Servatius. First of all, you will, no doubt, be calling the Defendant Sauckel himself?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, I should like to call him last, for he is a defendant and his statements are less valuable than that of a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: These witnesses will be corroborating his evidence about his administration. Under those circumstances, would not two of them, as Sir David suggested, out of eight, and two more affidavits be sufficient?

DR. SERVATIUS: From a legal point of view, the witness Beisiegel can be dispensed with, but the other witnesses are necessary because they have actual knowledge of the use of manpower abroad. So far, I have only one witness who can really speak on the use of manpower in the East. This witness should be able to describe the actual procedure followed; for laws have little meaning in themselves, if we do not know how they were applied. For the East, we have the witness Letsch—a highly important witness—and for the West, the witness Hildebrandt, who can testify how conditions gradually changed in France in consequence of the resistance movement.

The witness Kaestner could not be found, and I will dispense with him.

Witness Number 7, Dr. Geissler, is of the greatest importance because he can testify regarding inspections. The main point is at what period these workers were employed and what provision was made by Sauckel for their well-being in Germany. To ensure that Sauckel’s regulations—which, I maintain, were models of their kind—were actually put into practice, a series of inspectorates existed. Witness Number 7, Geissler, was in charge of the Reich inspectorate, a branch established by Sauckel. I consider him indispensable.

THE PRESIDENT: Why are not Number 3 and Number 8 cumulative?

DR. SERVATIUS: I named Number 8 in order to give special emphasis to the wage question. So far the Prosecution have not treated individual points in any very great detail. Otherwise I should find myself in difficulties owing to lack of evidence when the emphasis is transferred later to the question of wages. Only witness Number 8 can testify to this question. Witness Number 3 can testify regarding the regulations generally and in particular that Sauckel constantly improved conditions to the last, so that the situation of all foreign workers was considerably improved by legislation and continued to improve. This can be seen from all the regulations, which I have carefully collected for the purpose.

Witness Number 9, Dr. Stothfang, was Sauckel’s consultant, his personal adviser, and conducted many negotiations, particularly with France. For this reason I have named him as a substitute for witness Number 1, Abetz. In particular he conducted negotiations over the restrictions of the so-called Weisungsrecht, the restriction, that is, Sauckel’s right to recruit workers. From the very start of Sauckel’s activities, it was clear that no official administering a zone would tolerate interference of this kind on Sauckel’s part, that from a practical point of view it was impossible to tolerate it and his powers were promptly curtailed through parleys. Witness Stothfang will testify on that subject.

THE PRESIDENT: Why are 9 and 10 not cumulative?

DR. SERVATIUS: I will forego Number 10. I wish to say something on a rather different subject.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness Number 11 knows the conditions. He was the press expert, and if I must forego any witness, I would dispense with him rather than anyone else. He really does know, however, exactly what conditions were like. He wrote the book _Europa Works in Germany_ and made the film, and can say that these pictures were not faked but are genuine photographs. For this reason he is important, as his testimony is supplementary to the book and the film.

The next witnesses belong to the Labor Front. The Labor Front was responsible for the welfare of all foreign workers, as well as for that of German workers. The situation never changed in that respect; and the witnesses can testify now to the way in which the regulations were carried out in different cases, with regard to the construction of the camps, supplies, clothing, and everything else that took place.

Witness Number 13 would be the most important witness, but he has not been found. For this reason I attach special importance to witness Number 14, who worked with him. The witness Hoffmann was practically in charge and knows what conditions were in the camps.

Those were the witnesses who worked with Sauckel in liaison with the Labor Front. The other witnesses will testify as to the practical work done by the workers themselves.

The situation is this: Dr. Ley no longer appears here, so that the whole of Ley’s field now becomes part of the case against Sauckel and forms a further charge against Sauckel unless the question is clarified. There are a good many charges and they must be clarified.

THE PRESIDENT: What is the difference between 15 and 16?

DR. SERVATIUS: 15 is a stenographer’s error; 15 is identical with witness 12. Witness 16, Mende, of the head office is particularly important because he had to look after the organizations within the Labor Front.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean 15 comes out, does it?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, 15 comes out.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness 17, Dr. Hupfauer, can testify as to the origin of the code of regulations in general and about the direction in which Sauckel worked.

THE PRESIDENT: Why is not he cumulative with Number 14, whom you wanted to have instead of 13? The charge of inhumanity applies to both of them.

DR. SERVATIUS: Because witness 14 deals with the practical side, and witness 17 deals with the legislative side. Witness 18 was responsible for the practical application within the Labor Front. One must keep these various fields distinct from each other. Sauckel had a small office, which was incorporated into the Ministry of Labor. He issued regulations with the aim of steadily improving matters. I offer evidence that they were of social value and will prove on investigation to be irreproachable.

We then have to consider the other side of the question—the practical application, for which the Labor Front was responsible; and the recruitment. I have special witnesses to deal with these heads as well.

The next witnesses are members of Sauckel’s specialist staff. Witness 19, Bank Director Goetz, can testify that billions of marks were transferred to foreign countries for workers’ wages.

Witness 20, Beckurtz, was manager of the Gustloff works and one of Sauckel’s closest collaborators. He will confirm that the treatment and housing of workers in this very Gustloff factory was exemplary.

Witness 21 will testify as to the degree of authority exercised by Ley and Sauckel respectively. It is of great importance to know whether Sauckel himself was responsible or whether some other office was in charge of the practical side.

THE PRESIDENT: Why cannot this be dealt with by an affidavit or interrogatories?

DR. SERVATIUS: I shall be satisfied here with an affidavit. I have not yet spoken to the witness personally and for that reason I had to list him as a witness.

Witness 22, Reich Minister for Food and Agriculture. He will testify that from the moment Sauckel took up his appointment, he made every effort to improve conditions for foreign workers and that he continued to pay special attention to this point. That is of particular importance in view of the accusation that the foreign workers had been starved. Through it I shall be able to adduce evidence that the foreign workers were in part—I say in part—better off than German workers.

Witness 23. . .

THE PRESIDENT: He has already been granted to another defendant.

DR. SERVATIUS: Oh, I see. Then I can forego him.

The next witness has not yet been found. He will testify regarding the exchange of prisoners of war for French workers. I understand that Reich Minister Lammers has already been approved for other defendants.

Witnesses 26 and 27 are important because they can furnish information on the way in which workers were recruited in the Eastern territories. They can testify to the extent of Sauckel’s powers, whether they were executive or otherwise, to the authority given to the police, and to what extent the organization was distinct from the SS. Witness 26 has not been found. Consequently, I shall have to confine myself to witness Number 27, Governor Fischer, who has been found and approved.

THE PRESIDENT: What about an affidavit for 27?