Chapter IV: Preface (3)

_Elder B_. I have shown, by the Scriptures, the doctrine of the atonement of Christ, and that certain conditions are required of every man to ensure the benefits of that atonement for his individual sins. I will now speak of the conditions. The first condition required of men is to believe that there is a God, and that they have done things that are displeasing in His sight, and that Jesus Christ has provided a way of escape through his atonement. I question whether any person exists who does not, at heart, believe that there is a God. And it appears to me that all men must acknowledge that they have, in their life time, done things that have not been right. But a faith in Christ's atonement is the result of a teachable spirit's hearing a message from God, to that effect. Now faith is required of all men, for "without faith it is impossible to please God."--Heb. xi. 6. And Jesus says--"He that believeth not shall be damned."--Mark xvi. 16. Some preachers say that faith is all that is necessary to salvation. But this is incorrect, for the Apostle says, that faith without works is dead, being alone.--James ii. If faith had been sufficient for salvation, Jesus Christ would never have made any other conditions known. The devils believe and tremble, but we are not informed that they will be saved. Faith is only valued by the works it leads to. Without works we have no evidence that a man has faith.

_Mr. W_. I see that clearly.

{43} _Elder B_. The next condition required is repentance. As all men have sinned, all men are required to repent of their sins. Says Jesus--"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."--Luke xiii. 3. See also Luke xxiv. 47. Acts xvii. 30. Now to repent, is not to mourn, and grieve, and hang down one's head like a bulrush, but to forsake everything that is evil, and to make a firm resolution, like a man, to follow those things no more. In short, to repent is to cease to do evil, and resolve to do well. This is what is required of all men.

_Mr. W_. That appears right enough.

_Elder B_. The third condition required is for men to be baptized in water, for the remission of their sins. This is a condition quite as important as any other, yet it is one which is little thought of by many persons, and much misunderstood by others.

_Mr. W_. That is a subject upon which I have thought much, when I have heard my friends argue the matter.

_Elder B_. It is a subject concerning which much diversity of opinion prevails amongst the religious world. Some persons believe baptism to be altogether unnecessary, and they sing--

"Were I baptized a thousand times,
It would be all in vain."

Others believe baptism to be an ordinance that can be attended to, or dispensed with, at the discretion of the believer. Now we do not agree with either of these kinds of persons. We believe that baptism is one of the essential conditions of salvation. We deem it absolutely necessary that all persons who believe and repent, should also be baptized. If we consider what baptism is for, we shall see at once its necessity. Baptism is for the remission of sins.

_Mr. W_. But does not Jesus say that his blood was to be shed for the remission of sins? And does not St. John say that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin?

_Elder B_. If you read the preceding part of the verse in which the last passage you have quoted occurs, you will find these words--"But if we walk in the light." Now to walk in the light, is to walk in obedience to the law of God, and, as baptism is a part of the law of God, we must attend to that ordinance, or the blood of Jesus Christ will not cleanse us from _all_ sin. As to the other passage, I said, previously, that the atonement of Jesus Christ extended to the sins of all the human family, but to individual sins on conditions only. Three conditions I have named. The full benefit of the atoning blood {44} of Jesus Christ cannot be claimed, by any man, for his individual sins, until he is baptized. Baptism is nothing of itself, and cannot wash away our sins. But God has ordained that the blood of Christ for the remission of individual sins shall be available to no man till he has been baptized. No man is entitled to a pardon for his sins, until he obey that ordinance. So far, baptism is for the remission of sins; not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer--the return, of a good conscience towards God.

_Mr. W_. I think I understand you. In the winter, coals are given away to the poor of this town. The gift is free to the poor, but every one who receives it must produce a ticket signed by one of the committee. Without the ticket, the coals cannot be had. Baptism is of similar importance to salvation as the ticket is to the coals, I suppose.

_Elder B_. Yes. Naaman, the Syrian general, to cure his leprosy, was told to wash seven times in the river Jordan. The gift of cure was free to Naaman, but he could not have realized it independent of the seven washings. The mere washings would have availed nothing, but in their being the ordinance of the Lord consisted their efficacy. So with baptism for the remission of sins. That baptism is for the remission of sins, see Mark i. 4. Luke iii. 3. Acts ii. 38. xxii. 16. 1 Peter iii. 21. By this you will see that baptism is anything but nonessential to salvation.

_Mr. W_. Why, yes, I do.

_Elder B_. That baptism is an essential part of the righteous law of God is evident from the answer of Jesus, when John demurred to baptizing him--"Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness."--Matt. iii. 15. Jesus also says that baptism is a part of the counsel of God to men--"And all the people that heard him [John], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."--Luke vii. 29, 30. Baptism may also be considered the door of the Kingdom of God, or the law that adopts us into the family of God. Immediately after Jesus was baptized, the heavens opened over him, and God owned His Son. Jesus says, "He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door, is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth."--John x. 1-3. The sheepfold was the Kingdom of God, the door was baptism, the porter was John. Upon those {45} who attempt to enter any other way, will rest the imputation of dishonesty.

_Mr. W_. Not a very desirable imputation, certainly.

_Elder B_. No. But you see, by the illustration, the necessity of baptism.

_Mr. W_. I must confess I do.

_Elder B_. Baptism does not mean infant sprinkling or pouring. The true mode of baptism is by immersion.

_Mr. W_. That is my opinion of the matter. When my friends have been discussing the subject, it has always appeared to me that immersion was the proper form of baptism.

_Elder B_. True. This is plainly evident from the Scriptures. John the Baptist baptized in the river Jordan. If sprinkling or pouring were the mode, there would have been no necessity for his going into the river. It is true, I have seen representations of Jesus and John standing in the water, while John poured the water upon Jesus, but such a representation carries improbability upon its very face. If pouring would do, why go into the water? And we know that Jesus did go into the water, for he "went up straightway out of the water," after he was baptized, says the Evangelist.--Matt. iii. 16. "And the multitudes who went to John were baptized of him in Jordan."--Matt. iii. 6. Again, John baptized at Aenon, near to Salim, because there "was much water there."--John iii. 23. Of what advantage would much water have been, if sprinkling or pouring were the mode? A bucketful of water would sprinkle a thousand people. A very insignificant brook would suffice to baptize a nation, if pouring were the mode. If either of these were the mode, there was no necessity to choose a place of "much water." Unless immersion were the mode, we cannot see any sense in John's baptizing at Aenon because of the abundance of water there.

_Mr. W_-. Certainly not. But Mrs. Whitby's sister's husband, that is, Mr. Clarke, stands much upon this point--that it is declared that John baptized _with_ water.

_Elder B_. I am aware that it is so written. And I am sure that I never entertained the idea that any one could administer baptism for the remission of sins, _without_ water. John is spoken of as baptizing with water, distinguishing his baptism from the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire, which Jesus was to introduce.

_Mr. W_. I understand.

_Elder B_. Philip and the eunuch both went down into the {46} water.--Acts viii. 38. Jesus likens baptism to a birth.--John iii. 5. Now a birth argues a concealment, which immersion certainly is. St. Paul says we are _buried_ with Christ by baptism, "that like as Christ was raised up from the dead, by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."--Rom. vi. 4. This is plain enough. But he goes on to say, "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." What could be a more beautiful illustration of baptism by immersion than is here presented. Immersion is a burial. Immersion is a planting in the likeness of Christ's death. Sprinkling or pouring answer neither one figure nor the other. If we are buried with Christ by baptism, we thenceforth walk in newness of life. If we are planted in the likeness of Christ's death, it is an earnest of our being one day fashioned in the likeness of his resurrection.

_Mr. W_. That is certainly a striking and appropriate figure. Your ideas agree with mine very much.

_Elder B_. Having settled the mode of baptism, I will now say a little on the candidates for that ordinance. Baptism being for the remission of sins, and no one, who is not old enough to discern right from wrong, being accounted a sinner in the sight of God, you will perceive that baptism is only necessary for those who have arrived at years of accountability. And faith and repentance invariably precede baptism. If you search the Bible through, you will find that the people were always taught before they were baptized. John taught the people to bring forth fruits meet for repentance, before baptism. Jesus commanded his disciples to go and teach all nations, and then baptize them. The Apostles ever taught the people to believe and repent, before they were baptized. Little children, being incapable of understanding the law of God, are not deemed responsible for non-observance of it, and, consequently, are not required to believe, repent, or be baptized. Not being subject to the law, little children are wholly subjects of the free grace of Jesus Christ, and his atoning blood redeems them without any conditions on their part. It is solemn mockery before God, to baptize little children, or to preach that they will not be saved without baptism. When they can readily distinguish between right and wrong, then commences their responsibility.

_Mr. W_. I perfectly agree with what you say. But Mr. Clarke holds that baptism is in lieu of circumcision, and we know that Abraham and his seed were commanded to observe circumcision when the child was eight days old.

{47} _Elder B_. Circumcision and baptism are two different ordinances, and have no relation to each other. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant which God made with Abraham and his seed. Baptism is for the remission of individual sins. Circumcision could only be performed on one sex. Baptism is binding on both. Circumcision was preceded by no teaching. Baptism is invariably preceded by faith and repentance. Both circumcision and baptism were observed by the children of Israel under Moses.--1 Cor. x. 2. So you see that circumcision and baptism are two distinct ordinances, widely differing in their nature and application.

_Mr. W_. I see they are.

_Elder B_. After men have been baptized, they are required to have hands laid upon them, that they may receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Then, according to their faithfulness and diligence in keeping the commandments of God, the various manifestations of the Holy Ghost are poured out upon men--such as the gift of speaking in foreign tongues, of the interpretation of tongues, prophecy, dreams, visions, the gift of healing, and of working miracles, discernment of spirits, &c.

_Mr. W_. Do you believe in having these things now? Why one of the principal reasons that I have never joined any religious body is, that I could read in the Bible of these great and glorious gifts being enjoyed in ancient times, and I could not find any people who contended for these things now. I have expressed my thoughts on these subjects to Mr. Clarke, and his wife, and his brother, but they all declare that these blessings were only given for the establishment of Christianity, and that they, not being intended to continue upon the earth, are not now given, and, indeed, are not now needed. But I could never see the reason for this. I could see in the Bible no reason why men should not obtain these blessings now as anciently. In fact, I think the Bible decidedly encourages all men to seek after these things, for Paul says, "The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." And we are well aware that salvation is just the same thing now as anciently. Men have now the same weakness to overcome, the same temptations to resist, the same devil to oppose them, and the same end to obtain as in the days of the Apostles. And why should men now not have the same blessings from the hands of the Lord to assist them in obtaining salvation, as the primitive Christians had to assist them? It is certain that either God has changed, or men have degenerated and become unworthy {48} of such distinguished blessings as the early Christians enjoyed. But I am pleased to find that you believe in obtaining these blessings, I shall be happy to listen further to your views of the matter. I am becoming much interested in your doctrines.

_Elder B_. I am aware that the popular cry is that the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost are "done away, and no longer needed." We know they are done away, because men do not seek them, and the ancient Saints sought them earnestly. Indeed it would be marvellous for the Lord to give these blessings to men when they do not care for them, and when they think them unnecessary. He is not so prodigal of the choice gifts of His Holy Spirit. He does not cast his pearls before swine. His Spirit does not always strive with men. When they do not wish to serve Him, He gives them up to the imagination of their own hearts, to walk in their own ways. This is the cause of all the divisions in the religious world. But where is the first Scripture that says, or even hints, that the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit were not intended for men until they become perfect? Not a single text of this description can be found between the lids of the Bible, but the whole tenor of the Book teaches to the contrary. Jesus Christ said that the signs Or gifts should follow those who believed.--Mark xvi. 17. He also said that the Comforter--the Holy Ghost, should abide with his disciples for ever.--John xiv. 16. Jesus also said that his Father would give His Holy Spirit to all them that asked Him.--Luke xi. 13. Peter said that God gave the Holy Ghost to all that obeyed Him.--Acts v. 32. On the day of Pentecost, Peter declared that the promise of the Holy Ghost was for the people before him, for their children, for all that were afar off, even as many as the Lord should call.--Acts ii. 39. Paul continually exhorted all Saints to seek diligently after the gifts of the Spirit, for he would not have his brethren ignorant of them, but to covet earnestly the best gifts.--1 Cor. xii. xiii. xiv. Solomon said, "Where there is no vision the people perish."--Proverbs xxix. 18. Joel prophesied that the Spirit of the Lord should be poured out most abundantly in the last days, the sons and daughters should prophesy, the old men should dream dreams, and the young men should see visions, and even upon the servants and handmaids, should the Spirit be bestowed, indeed the promise is that it should be poured out upon all flesh.--Joel ii. 28, 29. That does not look like the gifts being done away and no longer needed. It is true, Peter said that the out-pouring on the day of Pentecost was in fulfilment of Joel's prophecy, but that occasion did not {49} fully fulfil the terms of the prophecy, for very few received the Holy Spirit then, not all flesh. A more full and complete fulfilment yet awaits the prediction, and the time when will be discovered by reading the whole of the chapter--just about the second advent of the Redeemer.

_Mr. W_. But is it necessary to have laid hands upon one, in order to receive the Holy Ghost?

_Elder B_. Laying on of hands is the ordinance appointed of God for the imparting of the Holy Ghost.--Acts viii. 17-20., xix. 6. Heb. vi. 2.

_Mr. W_. Did not Cornelius receive it without the laying on of hands, and even before he was baptized?

_Elder B_. Cornelius was a Gentile. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon him and his household previous to baptism and the laying on of hands, to convince the Jews that the Gentiles were entitled to the blessings of the Gospel. Cornelius and his household were then baptized. Doubtless the gift of tongues was only imparted to them for the time being, as has been the case with persons in our day, before baptism and the laying on of hands. It is reasonable to believe that, after Cornelius and his household were baptized, Peter laid his hands upon them, as he did upon other disciples. Such a course would be pursued by the Latter-day Saints now in similar cases.

_Mr. W_. But do the Latter-day Saints actually obtain these gifts?

_Elder B_. Yes, some have the gift of tongues, some of interpretation of tongues, others have dreams, visions, and revelations, whilst many have been miraculously healed by the power of God.

_Mr. W_. Well, really my bosom burns to hear it. [_Looking at his watch_.] But I am sorry to say that my time has expired. I have some particular business to attend to just now. Would you wait and take dinner with us. I can spare a little more time after dinner.

_Elder B_. I am obliged to you, but I have several places to call at this morning, and it will be inconvenient for me to stay with you to-day. However, I will call upon you this day week, and give you any further information you may wish.

_Mr. W_. Well, call when you can stay and have dinner. But I wish to ask you whether you admit persons into your Church immediately on application, or do you keep candidates a certain time on probation.

_Elder B_. In ancient times candidates were not required to {50} submit to any probation, previous to entering the Church, at least I cannot read so in the Bible, neither do the Latter-day Saints require such a thing. We like men to come up boldly and say they repent of their sins, and wish to be baptized. When men do this, we do not presume to question their sincerity, unless we have very substantial reasons for doing so. We wish to encourage confidence between men, and we do not treat them as suspicious characters, until we have evidence for it. When a man turns from his sins, then is the time that he should be received with open arms by the Church, the blessings of full fellowship should not be withheld, for he is but weak in the faith, and he needs all possible encouragement.

_Mr. W_. I have no fault to find with your sentiments on that head. I am sure it is very good of you to spend your time in enlightening the minds of the people, by your tracts and conversation. Of course you have a salary from your society to support you.

_Elder B_. I am not an hireling, sir. I do not preach for hire or divine for money. The hireling is not the true shepherd of the flock. An hireling is apt to look a little more to the fleece than to the flock.

_Mr. W_. But you cannot live on the air!

_Elder B_. When Jesus Christ sent his disciples to preach in ancient times, he told them to go without purse or scrip, and their heavenly Father would see that they were provided for. Jesus said that those persons who received his servants received him, and those who rejected them rejected him, and whosoever would give only a cup of cold water to one of the least of his disciples should not lose his reward.--Matt. x. Mark vi. ix. Luke ix. This is how I am sent out, this is how all the Elders of the Latter-day Saints are sent out to preach to the world.

_Mr. W_. That's noble, certainly.

_Elder B_. It proves the world, whether they will receive one in the name of the Lord; it proves the servants of God, whether they can put their confidence in Him; and it proves the Lord, whether He will support His servants and open the way for them.

_Mr. W_. I really wish you would stay for dinner.

_Elder B_. I would, with pleasure, if my duties allowed.

_Mr. W_. Well, I cannot let you go away empty. I beg you will accept of five shillings, to assist you in your laudable purpose.

{51} _Elder B_. May the Lord bless you in your basket and in your store, and restore you an hundred fold.

_Mr. W_. Thank you. I have much enjoyed your conversation. I am sure I am greatly indebted to you. But I must now say good day. You will not fail to call next week?

_Elder B_. I will not. Good day sir.

LIVERPOOL: PUBLISHED BY S. W. RICHARDS, 15, WILTON STREET, LONDON.

_If the Lord Almighty should give the human family their desire in
full, they would not keep the broad road to destruction, but would
go cross lots to hell._

--_Brigham Young._

_A man cannot deny the truth when the spirit of God is burning in
his bosom._

--_Francis M. Lyman._

_As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become._

--_Joseph Smith._

{52}

SALVATION: A DIALOGUE BETWEEN ELDER BROWNSON AND MR. WHITBY.

BY JOHN JAQUES, ELDER IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

_Elder B_. Good morning, sir. How do you do to-day?

_Mr. W_. O! good morning, sir. How do you do? I hope you are well. I am happy to see you. Come, walk in and sit down. I have been expecting you, and wishing you would come. I have many things of which to ask you to-day, if you will be kind enough to inform me concerning them. Since you were here last week, my mind has been much exercised respecting your principles. What I heard from you then, has appeared to me as near the truth as anything I ever heard before. If I had any prejudice against the Latter-day Saints previous to my meeting with you, I think it is now well nigh gone. Still there are some things connected with your people, of which I wish to learn a little more. I had not opportunity last week to name these things to you, as our time was short, and we seemed to occupy it so well with other conversation, that many questions which I wished to put to you, I really was obliged to postpone till a more favourable opportunity. But after dinner, I took my pipe, as I generally do, and sat in the corner, canvassing and weighing over what we had conversed upon, and other things which we had not. When I get my pipe, I reckon myself in my study, so I puzzled for full two hours over matters relating to your people. Finally, I thought I should have the privilege of seeing you again in a few days, when I could inquire of your more fully. Now you are here, for which I am glad. Would you first of all give me a brief description of the origin, progress, and present position of the Latter-day Saints, and of the organization and different officers of your Church?

_Elder B_. I will do so. About the year 1820, there was a great revival excitement among the religious societies in the town of Manchester, Ontario county, New York. This revival {53} was kept up with spirit by a series of camp meetings, in which preachers and people of all denominations joined. A multitude of converts was the result. But as they began to attach themselves to this or that society, a scene of strife and confusion prevailed, which contrasted strangely with the professions and former demeanour of both priests and people. In this town lived a young man, then in his fifteenth year. His father's family clung to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that body. This young man was deeply impressed during the above excitement. But the divisions and contentions of the religious societies puzzled him, and he reflected seriously upon their conduct, asking himself who, amidst all the strife, was right, and whom he must join. While in this anxious state, he one day opened his Bible, and read that golden counsel given by James--"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth unto all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him."--i. 5. This precious passage came with great force to the mind of this young man. The teaching exactly suited his case. He was unlearned, he was ignorant, he lacked wisdom. The preachers all claimed to be right, though, at the same time, they differed, and strove with each other. It was therefore folly to go to them to learn the truth. He wisely resolved to follow the advice of James, and "ask of God." Accordingly, this young man retired to a secluded spot, and kneeling down began to pray earnestly to the Almighty for guidance. The youth had scarcely done so, when he was suddenly seized by an invisible power, which rendered him speechless and helpless. Darkness seemed to hover around him. However, he exerted all his power to ask deliverance from the Lord, when a pillar of light, surpassing the brightness of the midday sun, appeared above the youth, and descended gradually till it fell upon him, and he felt released from his distressing bondage. When the light rested upon him, he saw two most glorious personages standing above him in the air. One spoke to him, pointing to the other, saying--"This is my beloved Son, hear him."

_Mr. W_. Then this young man actually saw and spoke to the Lord, and to his Son Jesus Christ!

_Elder B_. Yes. The young man asked the latter person, which of all the religious societies was right. In answer, the youth was informed that all were teaching incorrect doctrines, and that he must join none of the sects. To a certain extent this satisfied his mind. But on the evening of the 21st of September, 1823, he again prayed to the Lord for a manifestation from Him. While thus engaged, a light appeared in the {54} room, which increased until it became brighter than noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at the bedside, standing in the air.

_Mr. W_. A second vision!

_Elder B_. Yes. The personage had on an exceedingly white robe. His person was very glorious, and his countenance like lightning. Around him shone a halo or light superior to that which filled the room. He said he was a messenger from God, and was named Moroni [See Joseph Smith, the Prophet, page 19]. He called the young man by name, and told him that God had a work for him to do, which should cause his name to be good and evil spoken of among all people, and that a book written upon gold plates, and giving an account of the ancient inhabitants of America, was deposited in the earth, and with the book two stones in silver bows fastened to a breastplate, which were called anciently the "Urim and Thummim," and by which God revealed intelligence to His people. See Ex. xxviii. Lev. viii. 8. Deut. xxxiii. 8. I Sam. xxviii. 6. xxx. Ezra ii. 63.

_Mr. W_. I recollect reading of the priests using the Urim and Thummim among the children of Israel.

_Elder B_. Just so. On these plates was engraven the fulness of the everlasting Gospel, as Jesus Christ taught it to the ancient inhabitants of America. These sacred things were not to be shown to any person, except by commandment from the Lord. The place where they were deposited was shown to the young man's mind in this vision. After giving many more instructions, the messenger withdrew. While the young man lay musing on what he had seen and heard, the same messenger appeared again to him, repeating the former instructions, and adding others. A second time the messenger withdrew. Before morning he appeared a third time, and repeating what he had before communicated, added still further instructions, cautioning the youth to beware and not to be led astray. Whilst in the field the next day, the same messenger again stood before him, commanding him to go and tell his vision and the commandments he had received to his father. The youth obeyed, and his father told him that he must do as he was told by the angel, as it was of God. The young man accordingly went to the place where the records were deposited in a stone box, covered over by another stone, the middle part of the top of which was just visible above the ground. He raised the stone, and beheld the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breast-plate. He made an attempt to take them out, but the messenger again appeared to him and forbade {55} him, telling him the time had not yet come, but it would be four years longer. He was commanded to go to the place once a year, until the time appointed, and was informed that the messenger would meet him there. This commandment the youth obeyed, and received instruction and intelligence each time.

_Mr. W_. Though he was young, he certainly underwent a considerable course of experience before he was entrusted with the commission of the work.

_Elder B_. Truly so. The magnitude, importance, and sacred character of the work to which he was chosen, required the simplicity and obedience of youth, combined with the soberness and wisdom of maturity. Had an old man been chosen, he might have been too much indoctrinated with the opinions of the age, to readily obey the instructions of the heavenly messenger. Had not the youth been qualified for his great work, by a course of instruction and preparation, he might have been liable, in the lightness and thoughtlessness and inexperience of youth, to trifle with the sacred things committed to his charge.

_Mr. W_. Very true.

_Elder B_. On the 22nd of September, 1827, the angel placed the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breast-plate, in the youth's hands, charging him with the responsibility of their safe keeping. The plates were near eight inches long by seven wide, and a little thinner than ordinary tin. Engravings of the Egyptian hieroglyphic species filled both sides of the plates. They were bound together by three rings, at one edge, and were altogether about six inches thick. A part of the plates were sealed. The youth immediately prepared for their translation, which was done by means of the Urim and Thummim, as the language in which the plates were engraved was peculiar to the ancient inhabitants of America, and unknown to the present generation. About this time, he suffered much persecution, chiefly from religious persons, who had heard of his having visions, &c. He was compelled to flee for safety from Manchester, New York, to Pennsylvania. He continued to translate the record until he had finished those plates which were unsealed. All the plates were then delivered up again to the angel. After the translation, the Lord, by a heavenly messenger, showed the plates to three witnesses--Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. The youth also showed the plates, by commandment, to eight other persons--Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, jun., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. The testimony of these eleven witnesses precedes {56} the translation, which is entitled the Book of Mormon, the first edition of which was published in 1830.

_Mr. W_. I have heard much concerning this Book of Mormon, and have always understood it to be of an apocryphal or a fabulous nature. Your history of it is certainly strange, but, to be candid, I cannot say that it is any more improbable than many things which are contained in the Bible. It is not right to hastily condemn any thing that may appear strange, for it is truly said that "truth is strange--stranger than fiction." Could you give me a short description of the contents of this far-famed book?

_Elder B_. I know that many rumours and false statements are actively circulated concerning that book. Its true history I have just related. The book contains accounts of two separate and distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and they emigrated from the tower of Babel. Being a righteous people, their language was not confounded, and they were led by the Lord over the ocean to the continent of America, where, occupying the northern portion principally, they became a numerous, powerful, civilized, and refined nation, and had Prophets living among them. But they finally degenerated and became corrupt, so much so, that, after inhabiting the land about fifteen or sixteen centuries, the Lord utterly destroyed them. The records of this people were engraved on twenty-four gold plates which were found by the second race who peopled this continent. This last race consisted of two colonies. The first were descendants of Joseph, and left Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, about six hundred years before Christ, being directed by the Lord. They travelled by the borders of the Red Sea, then struck for the ocean, crossed the Pacific, and landed in South America. This colony, in the early part of their career, became divided into two parties. One party were termed Nephites, and were a righteous and enlightened people. The other were termed Lamanites, and became a wicked and ignorant people. The second colony were composed partly of the tribe of Judah. This people left Jerusalem in the eleventh year of the reign of Zedekiah, when the Jews were being carried captive to Babylon. These emigrants landed in North America, and soon after removed to the northern parts of South America, where, about four centuries after, they were discovered by the Nephites, in a partial state of civilization. These two peoples amalgamated, and became one great and enlightened people. Prophets existed among them. Jesus Christ himself visited them, after his resurrection, healed their sick, called twelve Apostles, and established his Church in {57} the land, in partial fulfilment of what he said to the Jews--"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd."--John xiv. 16.

_Mr. W_. But he did not bring them, and make them of one fold with the Jews, having one shepherd. I have always understood that this passage related to the Gentiles.

_Elder B_. The Gentiles were not reckoned sheep then. Besides Jesus said, at another time, that he was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."--Matt. xv. 24. So he would not be likely to speak of ministering among the Gentiles. He went to the Nephites, and they heard his voice, and many followed after him. They will not be brought into one fold with the Jews, until all scattered Israel are gathered together, and "made one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." The union of the stick or record of Joseph--the Book of Mormon, with the stick or record of Judah--the Bible, will be instrumental in producing this grand and glorious effect.--Ezek. xxxvii.

_Mr. W_. I certainly never saw so much apparent appropriateness and force in those prophecies before.

_Elder B_. Perhaps not. But to resume. The Nephites and Lamanites, after the visit of Jesus, ran well for a time. But they became corrupt, as years rolled on, and were often engaged in contention and bloodshed. Finally the Lamanites conquered and destroyed the Nephites, in the beginning of the fifth century after Christ. Their records were hid up in the earth by two of the last Nephite Prophets--Mormon and Moroni, in the hill where heaven directed the young man to go for the plates. The North American Indians are the descendants of the Lamanites, and what few of the Nephites mingled among them.

_Mr. W_. Well surely, that is a most interesting story. The record of half a world come to light! I must certainly read that book. How does it agree with the Bible doctrinally?

_Elder B_. Most admirably. Both books being written by inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, they run of course in complete unison. The Book of Mormon does not coincide with modern apostate religions, which have the form, but deny the power of godliness. That book, as may be expected, takes a bold and decided stand with the Bible, and fearlessly condemns all churches which are not backed up by the power and gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost as the Primitive Church was. {58} On some vital points, which in the Bible appear ambiguous through mistranslation, interpolation, or perversion, the Book of Mormon speaks in the most plain and pointed language, so that none may misunderstand.

_Mr. W_. Indeed.

_Elder B_. I will now resume my narrative. On the 15th of May, 1829, the young man and a friend--Oliver Cowdery, being convinced of the necessity and the proper mode of baptism, went into the woods to pray on the subject. While praying, a heavenly messenger--John the Baptist, descended in a cloud of light, laid his hands upon their heads, and ordained them saying--"Upon you my fellow-servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the Gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." The messenger said that the Aaronic Priesthood had not power to lay on hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but that that power should afterwards be given, and he commanded these two persons to baptize each other, and then re-ordain each other, which they straightway did, and the Spirit of God came upon them, and they prophesied. They afterwards received the Melchisedec Priesthood, which has power to lay on hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and to administer in spiritual blessings.

_Mr. W_. Why did they re-ordain each other? Was not the ordination of the angel sufficient?

_Elder B_. There was no one on earth who had authority to baptize these two persons, therefore the angel conferred it upon them, that they might be qualified to baptize each other. They were required to re-ordain each other after baptism, doubtless for the same reason that Jesus was baptized--that they might fulfil the law of God in its proper order, as far as possible, and thus become patterns for those who might believe on their words.

_Mr. W_. Very likely.

_Elder B_. When the Book of Mormon was published, some who read it became convinced of its truth, and were baptized. On the 6th of April, 1830, a Church, consisting of six members, was organized at Fayette, Seneca county, New York. That Church was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The youth who was the instrument in bringing forth the book, and in organizing the Church, was Joseph Smith. The Church increased rapidly in numbers, and in the gifts of {59} the Spirit. In the fall of the year, several Elders went to the state of Ohio, preaching, and baptized hundreds, and also introduced the Gospel into all the states west of New York. In 1831, a settlement was formed in Lake county, Ohio, and another in Jackson county, Missouri. The Saints in Ohio built a Temple to the Lord, at Kirtland, at the completion of which, in 1836, the power and glory of God were manifested in a remarkable degree. In consequence of continued persecution the Ohio settlement was abandoned in the year 1838. The Saints in Missouri laid the foundation stone for a Temple, at Independence, Jackson county, on the 3rd of August, 1831. This Temple is not yet built. The Saints were driven by mob violence from Jackson county to Clay county, in 1833. Soon after, they were driven from Clay county to Caldwell and other counties. In the winter of 1838-9, the Saints were expelled, at the bayonet's point, from the state of Missouri. In these awful persecutions and drivings, neither age, sex, nor condition was spared from the most revolting brutality, such was the relentless cruelty of the enemies of the Saints. In 1839, they began to gather on the east bank of the Mississippi, in the state of Illinois, and commenced to build up the city of Nauvoo, and soon afterwards a noble Temple. The Temple was finished and dedicated in 1846. In 1837, Elders were sent on a mission to Britain, where they succeeded in baptizing multitudes. In 1843, Elders were sent to the Society Isles, where numerous converts were made. On the 27th of June, 1844, the Prophet Joseph Smith, and his brother Hyrum, the Patriarch, were cruelly murdered by a mob, armed and disguised, in Carthage jail, twelve miles from Nauvoo, where these two men of God were thrown, for pretended crimes, and held for trial under the government pledge of personal safety. During his lifetime, Joseph Smith was embroiled in nearly fifty law-suits, yet was never legally convicted of any offence to the law of the land. In 1846, the Saints, again assailed by persecution, were compelled to quit Nauvoo. Fifteen thousand to twenty thousand people were obliged to vacate their dearly bought homes, travel across the vast prairies, and seek a home among the wild fastnesses of the Rocky Mountains. While in this condition, the government of the United States required the Saints to furnish a battalion of able-bodied men to aid in the Mexican war. This unjust requisition was complied with, and five hundred men were immediately enrolled, and sent to California, leaving their wives and families destitute in an Indian country. In July, 1847, a pioneer company of the Saints entered the Valley of the Great Salt Lake. Setting {60} aside the incidental privations of a new settlement, especially under these circumstances, that and the surrounding valleys have ever since been the peaceable and prosperous home of the Saints. They are now organized as a territory of the United States. Cities have been built, lands improved, and a Temple two hundred feet long is in progress. During the last four years, flourishing missions have been established in France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Gibraltar, Hindostan, Australia, and the Sandwich Isles; and Elders have recently been sent to Siam, Ceylon, China, the West Indies, British Guiana, and Chili. The Latter-day Saints in Britain now number about thirty thousand. About twenty thousand have left these shores to go to the head quarters of the Church. Between two thousand and three thousand leave Britain annually, for the same destination. The Book of Mormon is published in English, Welsh, French, German, Italian, Danish, and Polynesian. The Doctrine and covenants of the Church is published in English, Welsh, and Danish. The following papers and periodicals are now in circulation--The "Deseret News," published semi-monthly, at Great Salt Lake City; the "Seer," monthly, at Washington, United States; the "Millennial Star," weekly, at Liverpool; the "Udgorn Seion," in Welsh, weekly, at Merthyr Tydfil; the "Skandinaviens Stierne," in Danish, semi-monthly, at Copenhagen; and "Le Reflecteur," in French, monthly, at Lausanne.

_Mr. W_. The Latter-day Saints have certainly made a most extraordinary and rapid progress, notwithstanding their persecutions. How many kinds of ministers are there in your Church?

_Elder B_. In the Church of Christ there are two Priesthoods--the Melchisedec, and the Levitical or Aaronic. The Melchisedec Priesthood is the higher Priesthood, and, as I said before, holds the power to administer in spiritual things. Apostles, Patriarchs or Evangelists, Seventies, High Priests, and Elders, are of this Priesthood. The Levitical Priesthood is the lesser Priesthood, and holds authority to administer in temporal things and outward ordinances. Bishops, Priests, Teachers, and Deacons are of this Priesthood. The Apostleship is the highest office in the Church, and can officiate in all ordinances and blessings, spiritual or temporal, and build up the kingdom of God. One of the Apostles is chosen to be Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to the Church, and he has authority to give revelations from God for the guidance of the whole Church. Since the organization of the Church, in 1830, this Prophet, Seer, and Revelator has been also the President {61} of the Church in all the world. The President is assisted by two Counsellors holding the Apostleship. These three constitute what is termed the First Presidency of the Church. The duty of a Patriarch is to bless the Saints with Patriarchal blessings. Twelve of the Apostles are organized as a Quorum, whose duty it is to travel in all the world, and introduce the Gospel, and regulate the affairs of the Church in their travels. These Twelve are of course subject to the First Presidency. One of the Twelve is President of the Quorum. There are about thirty-three Quorums of Seventies, seventy in each Quorum, as the name implies. Each Quorum of the Seventies has seven Presidents. One of these seven presides over his associates. The seven Presidents of the first Quorum preside over all the Quorums of Seventies. The duty of the Seventies is to travel in all the world, and introduce the Gospel, under the direction of the Quorum of the Twelve. The High Priests constitute a Quorum, which has a President with two Counsellors. The duty of the High Priests is more particularly to preside. Twelve High Priests are chosen as the High Council of the Church. The duty of the High Council is to try the most serious offences against the laws of the Church. The Elders constitute a Quorum, which has a President with two Counsellors. An Elder has authority to preach the Gospel, baptize, lay on hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and to administer in spiritual blessings. All the officers above an Elder are also called Elders. The duty of a Bishop is to administer in the temporal affairs of the Church, and to sit as a judge upon transgressors. The duty of a Priest is to preach the Gospel, and administer in outward ordinances--such as baptism, and the Lord's supper, and to visit the members of the Church, and exhort them to faithfulness. The duty of a Teacher is to be as a father to the members, to watch over them continually, and see that there is no lying, backbiting, evil speaking, or iniquity of any kind, in the Church, and that all the members meet together often, do their duty, and live in love and union. The duty of the Deacon is to attend to the temporal well-being and comfort of the Church, and to assist the Teacher in his duties when necessary. The Priests, the Teachers, and the Deacons, each constitute a distinct Quorum, having its respective President, with his two Counsellors. The lesser offices of the Priesthood are all embodied in the higher, consequently an officer can minister in the duties of any office beneath him. Thus an Apostle can administer in the duties of High Priest, Elder, or Deacon.

{62} _Mr. W_. You have a most wonderful and elaborate organization.

_Elder B_. No other organization in the world is so complete, or so beautifully adapted "for the perfecting of the Saints, the work of the ministry, or the edifying of the body of Christ," which St. Paul declares to be the end of the Priesthood.

_Mr. W_. How was so minute a knowledge of the various offices and their duties obtained? It is not given in the Bible.

_Elder B_. Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon so particularly describe the offices of the Holy Priesthood, or so clearly define their duties. By revelation from God, and by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, was this glorious knowledge given in these last days.

_Mr. W_. It's passing strange! And yet I feel glad--I cannot but admire your system--But why do the Latter-day Saints leave their native land, and go to America? as I understand they do.

_Elder B_. In a few words I can show you the propriety of that principle. You know very well that righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness. The righteous and the wicked can never live in peace and harmony. The laws of God can never be fully obeyed while the people of God are scattered among the wicked. The separation of the people of God from the wicked has been a prominent feature in all dispensations. Salvation can never be realized without this separation. Abraham was commanded to go with his family to a land that he knew not. The children of Israel were commanded to gather out of the land of Egypt, to the land of Canaan, and be separate from their enemies. The Israelites ever considered their dispersion among the nations as a most signal sign of the displeasure of the Lord. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and said how often he would have gathered her children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but the stubborn Jews would not listen to him, consequently they were scattered among all nations, the most fearful curse that ever befell that people. They still look forward, with the strongest confidence, to their gathering again to Jerusalem and to Palestine, and regard that gathering as ample recompense for the long, dreary night of scattering which they are now passing through. And the Lord has promised that the wonders of the last gathering of His people shall totally eclipse, and banish from their minds, the wonders of the gathering from Egypt.--Jer. xvi. xxxi. When the Latter-day judgments are being sent among the wicked, does not St. John {63} say that a voice is to be heard from heaven--"Come out of her [Babylon-the wicked nations], my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues?"--Rev. xviii. 4. And Joel says, "In Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, shall be deliverance," in the last days.--Joel ii. 32. We know where Jerusalem is, and God has revealed that the Mount Zion of the last days is in America, and has also commanded His people to gather there, and prepare themselves to dwell in peace when Jesus Christ shall come. The Jews will return to Jerusalem by and bye. At your leisure, read Isaiah ii. v. xi. xliii. xlix. Zech. x. Ezek. xi. xx. xxxiii. Zeph. iii. Jer. xxxii. Many other passages might be named, but these prove that a mighty gathering of the people of God was to occur in the last days. It is now being fulfilled.