Chapter IV (3)

The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins and is baptized for the remission of his sins, and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), which is the first comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him: Son, thou shalt be exalted, etc. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then he will find his calling and his election made sure; then it will be his privilege to receive the other comforter, which the Lord has promised the Saints, as recorded in the testimony of St. John (_John 16: 12-27_): "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you; I will not leave you comfortless, {339} I will come to you. He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. If a man love me, he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him."

Now what is this comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter: that when any man obtains this last comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle Of Patmos, St. Paul in the three Heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born.

The spirit of revelation is in connection with these blessings. A person may profit by noticing the first intimations of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing from you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; that is, those things that were presented unto your minds by the spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Jesus Christ.

An evangelist is a Patriarch, even the oldest man of the blood of Joseph or of the seed of Abraham. Wherever the Church of Christ is established in the earth, there should be a patriarch for the benefit of the posterity of the Saints, as it was with Jacob in giving his patriarchal blessings unto his sons.

{340}

THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS AND THE WORLD.

BY WILLIAM A. MORTON. (_Copyright by the Author_.)

"Let us dream no dreams and tell no lies, but go on our way,
wherever it may lead us, with our eyes open and our heads erect.
If death ends all, we cannot meet it better. If not, let us enter,
whatever be the next scene, like honest men, with no sophistry in
our mouths and no masks on our faces."--Sir James F. Stephen.

I.--THE GODHEAD.

The World:--We understand, Latter-day Saints, that you are delighted when an opportunity presents itself which enables you to explain to the world the faith you believe in?

Latter-day Saints:--That is true. We are always ready to give, to every one that asks of us, a reason for the hope that is within us; for, like the Apostle Paul, "we are not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth."

The World:--You testify most positively that you know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God; that the Church of which you are members was established by Divine revelation. You claim that it is the only Church on earth which teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fulness?

Latter-day Saints:--That is our position exactly. We testify that God the Father and Jesus Christ His Son appeared to the boy, Joseph Smith, in the year 1820. We further testify that the angel which John the Revelator prophesied would "fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water;" (Revelation 14: 6-7) came to Joseph Smith, and delivered to him a record containing the fulness of the Gospel of the Son of God. We claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, indeed, the true Church of Christ; that it was established and named by Him; that it has the same officers, holding the same Divine authority, as the primitive Church, namely, "Apostles, {341} Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc." (Eph. 4: 11.) We profess to be teaching the very same Gospel that was taught by Christ and His Apostles. We contend that there is but one true Gospel. Jesus said, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt. 7: 14.) Paul taught: "There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. 4: 4, 5.) He further said: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1: 8.)

The World:--Well, we have decided to follow the admonition of the Apostle Paul--"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I. Thes. 5: 21)--and if you have no objection, we would like to put you on trial and judge you, according to the law and the testimony, that we may learn whether the doctrines which you teach are of God or whether you speak of yourselves.

Latter-day Saints:--We are quite willing to be put on trial, and to be judged as you have proposed, according to the law and the testimony; for, as the Prophet Isaiah said, if we speak not according to the law and the testimony there is no light in us. (Isaiah 8: 20.) We have many witnesses who are ready and willing to testify in our behalf, men whose testimony cannot be questioned. They are not men who have followed cunningly devised fables, but who were eye-witnesses of the things of which they will speak. If it please the court, we are ready; let the trial begin.

The World:--The first offence with which you are charged is that of teaching that the Godhead is composed of three separate and physically distinct Persons. This, as you must know, is contrary to the teaching of all the churches, especially the Church of England. That church teaches that the Godhead is composed of three Persons, namely, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that these three are one in substance, equal in power and glory. Here is an extract from the Book of Common Prayer: "And the Catholick Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son: and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. * * * The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals: but one eternal. * * * So the {342} Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods: but one God." (Book of Common Prayer, pp. 21, 22.)

Latter-day Saints:--We are aware that that is the teaching of the Church of England, but it is not in harmony with the teaching of Christ and His disciples. We have a witness named John who was intimately acquainted with the Son of God, whom we consider a most competent authority to speak on this matter. He is ready to be examined.

The World:--We will be pleased to hear his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN.

The World:--What is your name?

John:--My name is John, sometimes called the Baptist.

The World:--We understand that you are a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John:--I am.

The World:--Were you personally acquainted with the Messiah?

John:--I was. I am His cousin. I was associated with Him during His ministry.

The World:--Is it true that you were sent before His face to prepare His way?

John:--It is. The Lord sent an angel to my father, as he prayed in the temple in Jerusalem, who promised him a son who would go before the face of the Lord and make His paths straight. I am that son.

The World:--Were you called of God to do that work?

John:--I was. When the angel appeared to my father, he said unto him, "Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. * * * And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." I also cite to you the testimony of John as recorded in his Gospel, which reads as follows: "There was a man _sent from God_ whose name was John." (John 1: 6.)

The World:--What was the nature of your mission?

John:--I was sent to preach repentance and water baptism. I preached in the wilderness of Judaea, saying unto the people, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3: 1, 2.)

{343} The World:--Were you able to bring many people unto repentance?

John:--Yes, a great many. Mark has made the following record concerning my missionary labors: "And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1: 5.)

The World:--Have you ever heard the voice of God?

John:--I have, on several occasions.

The World:--Mention one of them.

John:--He spoke to me when I did not know that Jesus, my cousin, was His Only Begotten Son. He said to me, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (John 1: 33, 34.)

The World:--Did you baptize Jesus Christ?

John:--I did.

The World:--What took place at His baptism?

John:--That which is recorded in Matthew 3: 16-17: "Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

The World:--Then, John, according to your testimony, the three Personages who constitute the Godhead are not one in substance, but are separate and distinct?

John:--They are certainly separate and distinct Personages. When Jesus came up out of the water, after His baptism, and while He stood on the bank of the river, the Spirit of God descended like a dove and lighted upon Him, and at the same time the voice of the Father was heard from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." These things I both saw and heard: I saw Jesus on the bank of the river; I saw the Spirit of God descend from heaven like a dove and rest upon Christ; I heard the voice of God out of heaven bear testimony that Jesus was His beloved Son.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):--The testimony of the witness John is certainly very clear and convincing. Have you any other witnesses to prove that the Godhead consists of three separate Persons?

Latter-day Saints:--We have several. Here is the Apostle Peter.

The World:--We will listen to his testimony.

{344}

PETER'S EVIDENCE.

The World:--Your name is Simon Peter?

Peter:--It is.

The World:--Are you also one of Christ's disciples?

Peter:--I am one of His Apostles.

The World:--Prior to your call to the ministry what was your occupation?

Peter:--I was a fisherman.

The World:--How did you receive your call to the ministry?

Peter:--I was called by Christ Himself.

The World:--Is there a record of your ordination?

Peter:--There is. You will find it recorded in the Gospel according to Saint Mark, as follows: "And lie ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach." (Mark 3: 14.) I am one of the Twelve.

The World:--Do you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Ghost are three Persons in one substance?

Peter:--I do not.

The World:--Can you furnish evidence that they are separate Personages?

Peter:--I can.

The World:--We will listen to your evidence.

Peter:--On one occasion Jesus took James and John and me up into a high mountain apart by ourselves, and there He was transfigured before us. His face shone as the sun and His raiment became as white as snow. We beheld two heavenly messengers come to Jesus and talk with Him. They were Moses and Elias. They spoke to Him of His death which He should accomplish at Jerusalem. We were very much astonished at the things which we saw, and as soon as Moses and Elias had departed I went to Jesus and said to Him, "Master, it is good for us to be here: let us make three tabernacles: one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." (Luke 9: 33.) While I was speaking a cloud came and overshadowed us, and there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." (Luke 9: 34, 35.)

The World:--Was there a record made of what took place on the occasion of which you speak?

Peter:--There was. It is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. (Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9.) I {345} also made a record of it in my second general epistle, as follows: "For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (II. Peter 1: 17, 18.) Jesus, in speaking to us on one occasion, said: "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." (John 16: 28.) Now, surely you would not have me interpret Jesus' saying as meaning that He had come from Himself and was going to return to Himself? I was with the Savior during that awful night in the Garden of Gethsemane when in the anguish of His soul He prayed, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14: 36.) I did not understand Jesus on that occasion to be praying to Himself.

The World:--The witness is excused.

The Latter-day Saints:--Here are James and John, who will corroborate the testimony of Peter.

The World:--James, you have heard the testimony of the Apostle Peter, what have you to say concerning it?

James:--I corroborate it in every particular. I was also on the mount and heard the voice of God bear testimony that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son.

The World:--The witness is excused.

The World:--John, you have listened to the testimony of your fellow Apostles, what have you to say concerning it?

John:--It gives me pleasure to corroborate it. They have spoken the truth, and nothing but the truth. I also heard the voice of the Father saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him."

The World:--That is all. (To the Latter-day Saints):--Have you any more witnesses?

The Latter-day Saints:--We have one more, a man who laid down his life for the truth's sake; his name is Stephen.

Stephen's testimony.

The World:--What is your name?

Stephen:--My name is Stephen.

The World:--What position did you hold in the Christian Church?

Stephen:--I was one of the seven men who were set apart by the Apostles to look after the temporal needs of the widows in the church. (Acts 6.)

{346} The World:--Did you also proclaim publicly the Gospel, and bear testimony to the divinity of Jesus?

Stephen:--I did.

The World:--How was your testimony received by the people?

Stephen:--They denounced me as a blasphemer. On one occasion when I was preaching to them they gnashed on me with their teeth. (Acts 7: 54.)

The World:--What happened at that time?

Stephen:--The Lord filled me with the Holy Ghost and opened the heavens to me.

The World:--What did you behold when the heavens were opened?

Stephen:--I beheld God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7: 55.)

The World:--You say that you saw God, and Jesus standing on His right hand. Then, God and Jesus must be two separate Beings?

Stephen:--Certainly. Jesus was not standing at His own right hand.

The World:--You bore testimony to what you saw?

Stephen:--I did.

The World:--How did the people receive your testimony?

Stephen:--It cost me my life. They stoned me to death. (Acts 7: 59, 60.)

The World:--That is all.

Latter-day Saints:--It is not necessary to call any more witnesses. We have proved, most conclusively, that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct Personages. John proved that, when he testified that he saw Jesus standing on the bank of the Jordan; then he beheld the Spirit of God descend from heaven like a dove and rest upon the Messiah, and at the same time he heard the voice of God testify that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son. Peter testified that when James and John and himself were on the mount with Jesus they heard the voice of God testify that Jesus was His Beloved Son. James and John corroborated his testimony. Stephen testified that he, being filled with the Holy Ghost, had the heavens opened to him, and he saw God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of His Father.

The World:--The evidence which you have produced is, indeed, incontrovertible. It is, to be sure, contrary to the teachings which we have received in the churches and from our fathers. But we now call to mind the words of the {347} Prophet Jeremiah, "O Lord, my strength and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." (Jeremiah 16: 19.)

II.--THE PERSONALITY OF GOD.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):--It is true, then, as we have been told, that you believe and teach that God the Father is a personal Being, possessing a definite form, with bodily parts and spiritual passions?

Latter-day Saints:--Such is our belief and teaching.

The World:--This also is contrary to the teachings of almost every church in Christendom. The Church of England, in the first of the "Articles of Religion," published in its Prayer Book, says: "There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts or passions; of infinite power, wisdom and goodness."

Latter-day Saints:--We believe in the God of the Bible, in the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob; the God of all the holy Prophets, and the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We have witnesses whose testimonies cannot be impeached. They are men who can testify from actual experience, men who saw God, and who conversed with Him face to face, and whose testimonies should, therefore, be worthy of all acceptation.

The World:--We will be pleased to listen to your witnesses. Let the first witness be called.

Latter-day Saints:--The first witness who will testify in our behalf is Abraham, "the father of the faithful and the friend of God."

Abraham's testimony.

The World:--What is your name?

Abraham:--My name is Abraham. I was at first called Abram, but the Lord changed my name to Abraham. (Genesis 17: 5.)

The World:--Have you ever had a revelation from God?

Abraham:--I have had many.

The World:--Relate one.

Abraham:--When my wife and I were residing with my parents in Haran the Lord spoke to me, saying, "Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew then: and I will {348} make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing; and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 12: 1-3.)

The World:--You were, of course, obedient to the Lord?

Abraham:--I was. I took my wife, Lot, my brother's son, and all those who believed what the Lord had said to me, and, with our substance, we set out for the land of Canaan. While we were camped in the plain of Moreh the Lord appeared unto me and said, "Unto thy seed will I give this land." (Genesis 12: 7).

The World:--Were you visited by the Lord on any other occasion?

Abraham:--I was. I was ninety-nine years old at the time. We were living in the plains of Mamre. The Lord appeared to me there and said, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and I will multiply thee exceedingly. * * * As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. * * * And I will make thee exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee." (Genesis 17: 1-6.) I am testifying of things which I have seen with my own eyes; I saw the Lord and talked with Him face to face, as one man talks with another.

The World:--We have no further questions to ask the witness.

Latter-day Saints:--We have another witness who is prepared to give as strong and as irrefutable evidence as the previous one. His name is Moses.

The World:--We will listen to his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF MOSES.

The World:--Your name is Moses?

Moses:--It is.

The World:--Where were you born?

Moses:--I was born in Egypt, of Hebrew parents.

The World:--It is true that at the time of your birth Pharaoh made a decree that all the male children of the Hebrews were to be thrown into the river Nile?

Moses:--It is.

The World:--How did you escape the fate of the others?

Moses:--My mother made a little ark of bulrushes, daubed it with slime and pitch, and placing me in it she took it down {349} and left it on the flags by the river's brink. In a short time Pharaoh's daughter came down to the river. Seeing the ark, she requested her maid to fetch it. On removing the cover, she beheld me in tears. Her heart was touched, and she decided to keep me as her own child. My sister Miriam, who was in hiding near by, came forward and proffered to get a nurse for the baby. The king's daughter gave her permission to do so, so she went and brought my mother. When my mother arrived, Pharaoh's daughter said to her, "Take this child away and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages." (Exodus 2: 9.) So my mother had the pleasure of raising her own child, and was well paid for doing so. When I was grown I was taken to the court of Pharaoh, and adopted by his daughter. I was treated as though I were her own son and was taught in all the learning of the Egyptians.

The World:--You did not take very well to Egyptian court life?

Moses:--I did not; I would much rather have been with my own people. I finally ran away from Pharaoh and went to Midian, where I fell in love with and married Zipporah, a daughter of Jethro, a priest of Midian. (Exodus 2: 21.)

The World:--What occupation did you follow?

Moses:--I was a sheep-herder; I tended the flocks of my father-in-law.

The World:--We have been told that on one occasion while you were herding the sheep you had a heavenly manifestation; is the report true?

Moses:--It is. While I was tending the sheep one day I beheld a burning bush. I went over to see the strange sight, and as I approached the bush God called unto me out of the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses." And I said, "Here am I." And He said, "Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3: 4-6.) On hearing that, I hid my face; for I was afraid to look upon God. Then the Lord said unto me, "I have surely seen the afflictions of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows. * * * Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt and I have said, I {350} will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt. * * * unto a land flowing with milk and honey." (Exodus 3.)

The World:--Did you do as the Lord commanded you?

Moses:--I did, and the Lord, in His infinite mercy, and by many signs and wonders, brought the children of Israel up out of Egypt into their own land.

The World:--Have you ever seen God?

Moses:--I have. On one occasion I talked with Him face to face. I was in the tabernacle at the time. A cloudy pillar descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with me. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshiped, every man in his tent door. And the Lord spake unto me face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. (Exodus 33: 9-12.) Later He hid me in the cleft of a rock, and as He passed by, in His glory, I beheld His back parts. (Exodus 33: 22-23.)

The World:--Did any of your associates ever see God?

Moses:--Yes, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel and myself saw Him on one occasion. (Exodus 24: 9, 10.)

The World:--Is it true that you spent forty days and forty nights with the Lord on Mount Sinai?

Moses:--It is. It was on that occasion that He gave me two tables of stone on which He had written with His own finger the ten commandments for the children of Israel.

The World:--Moses, we recognize you as one who is fully competent to speak on this important matter. You have seen the Lord a number of times; you have talked with Him face to face; you have been with Him for forty days and forty nights at one time; now, we would like you to describe to us, just as plainly as you can, the true and the living God.

Moses:--I tell you in plainness and in all truth, that God is just like a perfect man. If you could see God today you would see Him just as Abraham saw Him, just as I saw Him, in the form of man, for man was made in the image of God. (Genesis 1: 27.)

The World:--Thank you; that is all.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):--Surely the testimony of these two witnesses ought to be enough to convince you that the God whom we worship--a God with body, parts and passions--is, indeed, the true God, the God of the Bible. But these are not all our witnesses. We have others, whose testimony we desire you to hear.

{351} The World:--Let them come forward.

Latter-day Saints:--Thomas, the World desires to hear your testimony.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS.

The World:--Were you acquainted with the Lord Jesus Christ when He was on the earth?

Thomas:--I was.

The World:--What position did you hold in the Church of Christ?

Thomas:--I was an Apostle.

The World:--Did you see the Savior after His resurrection?

Thomas:--I did. I at first considered the news too good to be true. When the other Apostles told me that they had seen the risen Lord, I said, "Except I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."

The World:--Did Christ show Himself to you after that?

Thomas:--He did. Eight days later I was with the Apostles in a house in Jerusalem when the Savior appeared in our midst. As soon as He entered the room He said, "Peace be unto you." Then turning to me, He said, "Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." (John 20: 26, 27.) I recognized Him at once, and I exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!"

The World:--You saw the print of the nails in His hands, and the mark of the spear in His side?

Thomas:--I did.

The World:--Then, He must have appeared to you in the same body in which He was crucified?

Thomas:--He did, in the very same body of flesh and bones, but quickened by Spirit. (Luke 24: 39.)

The World:--Did you see Him after that!

Thomas:--I did, a number of times. One evening Simon Peter, Nathaniel of Cana, the sons of Zebedee, two other disciples and I went out fishing. We fished the entire night, but caught nothing. As we were returning in the morning, we saw a "man," as we supposed, standing on the shore. He asked us if we had any meat, and we answered that we had not. He told us to cast our net on the right side of the ship. We did so, and to our astonishment we caught one hundred and fifty-three fishes. John was the first to recognize the "man" on the shore, and as soon as he saw who He was, he {352} exclaimed, "It is the Lord!" On hearing that, Peter jumped into the sea and swam to the shore. We were delighted to meet our beloved Redeemer once again. The Lord had prepared a fire of coals, and had some fish cooked. He invited us to come and dine with Him, which we did, and ate heartily of bread and fish. That was the third time that Jesus showed Himself to us after His resurrection. (John 21.)

The World:--Were you present at the ascension of Christ?

Thomas:--I was.

The World:--Tell us what took place on that occasion.

Thomas:--Just before His ascension He said to us, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1: 8.) As soon as He had finished speaking He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of our sight. As we stood gazing after Him, two men dressed in white apparel appeared, and, addressing us, said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1st chap.)

The World:--That is all, Thomas.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):--We have proved by the last witness, an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, that Christ arose from the grave in the same body which was nailed to the cross, but immortalized; in that body He appeared to His disciples; in that same body He made a fire of coals on the shore and prepared food, which He ate with His disciples; in that same body He ascended into heaven; in that same body He shall come again to the earth.

The World:--What evidence have you that Christ shall come again in His crucified body?

Latter-day Saints:--We have the testimony of the Prophet Zechariah.

The World:--We will hear what he has to say.

TESTIMONY OF ZECHARIAH.

The World:--Your name is Zechariah?

Zechariah:--It is.

The World:--Were you a Prophet in Israel?

Zechariah:--I was so honored of the Lord.

The World:--Did you prophesy concerning the second coming of Christ?

{353} Zechariah:--I did. I prophesied and said, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14: 4.) "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zechariah 13: 6.)

The World:--We will excuse the witness.

Latter-day Saints:--We have another witness whose testimony we would like you to hear; his name is Paul.

The World:--We will be pleased to listen to his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:--Your name is Paul?

Paul:--It is.

The World:--Are you an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Paul:--I am.

The World:--Have you ever seen Christ?

Paul:--I have. (I Cor. 15: 8.)

The World:--What is your testimony concerning Christ?

Paul:--It is the same as that of Thomas and the rest of the Apostles--that He has a body of flesh and bones.

The World:--What is your testimony concerning God, the Father of Christ?

Paul:--I testify that as Christ is so is His Father. I wrote to the Hebrew saints on this matter, as follows: "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Heb. 1: 3.) Christ said on one occasion: "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

The World:--We have no further questions to ask the witness.

Latter-day Saints:--We now respectfully ask you to listen to the testimony of the young prophet, Joseph Smith.

The World:--We have heard a great deal concerning that young man. It has been reported that he declared he had seen God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Latter-day Saints:--Such, indeed, was his testimony, and tens of thousands of us have received testimonies from the Lord that he spoke the truth.

{354} The World:--We will hear him for ourselves.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH SMITH.

The World:--Your name is Joseph Smith, Jr.?

Joseph Smith:--It is.

The World:--Are you the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Joseph Smith:--I was simply an humble instrument in the hands of the Lord in re-establishing, according to the revelations of God, the Church of Christ upon the earth.

The World:--So, you profess to have received revelations from God?

Joseph Smith:--I do. More than that: I have seen God and His Son Jesus Christ, and have talked with them.

The World:--We are desirous of hearing from your own lips your testimony concerning this matter.

Joseph Smith:--Realizing that I, as well as all other men, shall have to stand some day before the judgment bar of God to be judged according to my works, my testimony in this case shall be the truth, and the truth only, God being my witness. I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, state of Vermont. My father, Joseph Smith, Senior, left the state of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the state of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father's arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester, in the same county of Ontario. His family consisted of eleven souls, namely--my father, Joseph Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (who died November 19th, 1824, in the 27th year of his age), Hyrum, myself, Samuel Harrison, William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy. Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, "Lo, here?" and others, "Lo, there!" Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, {355} and some for the Baptist. For notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased--yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued; priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions. I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely--my mother Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia. During this time of great excitement, my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who wrong. My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of either reason or sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others. In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself, What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it? While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: "_If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth_ {356} _not, and it shall be given him_." Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if He gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture. So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally. After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction--not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being--just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other--"_This is my beloved Son, hear him_!" My object in going to enquire of the Lord was to know {357} which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right--and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the beforementioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying, it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them. I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me. It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself. However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made {358} his defence before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light, and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise. So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it, at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

The World:--Then, according to your testimony, God the Father, and Jesus Christ are two distinct Personages?

Joseph Smith:--That is my testimony. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also: but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

The World:--So that if we were to see God now, we would see Him in the form of man?

Joseph Smith:--You would. "If the veil was rent today, and the Great God, who holds this world in its orbit, who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make Himself visible--I say, If you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form--like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

The World:--The witness is excused.

Latter-day Saints:--This closes our case. You have heard the testimonies of Abraham, Moses, Thomas, Zechariah, Paul, {359} and Joseph Smith. The testimonies of these servants of the Lord are similar in every respect. You cannot reject the testimony of Joseph Smith without rejecting the testimonies of the others. We pray you, give heed to these things; for "this is life eternal: to know the living and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent."

III.--FAITH AND WORKS.

The World:--What are the first principles and ordinances of your religion?

Latter-day Saints:--The first principles and ordinances of our religion are these: First, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The World:--Do you believe that good works must accompany faith in order for men to obtain salvation?

Latter-day Saints:--We do. We maintain that belief alone is not sufficient to bring salvation to any man. "Faith without works is dead." Faith is the first principle of the Gospel of Christ: it is the foundation upon which every other principle and ordinance rests. You remember, the Apostle Paul said, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Heb. 11: 6.)

The World:--Well, we have been taught that all a person has to do in order to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the Gospel which Paul and Silas preached to the Philippian jailor and his household. When the jailor asked Paul and his companion what he should do to be saved, they answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16: 30, 31.)

Latter-day Saints:--No, that is only part of the Gospel which Paul and Silas preached to the jailor and his house. They did not stop at belief, as the majority of preachers do in these days. But here is the Apostle Paul; he can speak for himself.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:--Paul, when the Philippian jailor asked you and Silas what he should do to be saved, what did you tell him?

Paul:--We told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he would be saved, and also his house. (Acts 16: 31.)

The World:--We thought so. Now, if the jailor and his {360} household had simply to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to gain salvation, why should other people have to do more?