Chapter IV (5)

Paul:--I believe and have taught that it is an essential ordinance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Jesus appeared to me on the way to Damascus, He called me to repentance and told me to go into Damascus and that I would there be told of all things that were commanded of me to do. The Lord then instructed His servant Ananias to go to me and to tell me to _arise and be baptised and wash away my sins_, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22: 16.) So, you see, baptism for the remission of sins is not my doctrine, but the Lord's. So important is this ordinance in the sight of the Eternal Father that He withheld the Holy Ghost from twelve devout Ephesians until I had re-baptized them. They had been baptized previously, but not by one holding authority from God, and so their baptism was not valid in His sight. How dare I teach the children of men that baptism is not essential to salvation when He who spake as never man spake had declared, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

The World:--We will excuse the witness.

Latter-day Saints:--We have adduced enough evidence to {381} convince every fair-minded person that water baptism is essential to his salvation. We have shown that it was instituted by the Lord from the beginning of the world for the remission of sins. The Israelites received the ordinance under the hands of Moses, and were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. John, the forerunner of Messiah, was sent by God to _preach baptism for the remission of sins_. He baptized multitudes of people in the river Jordan _for the remission of their sins_. Christ the Son of God received baptism at the hands of John in order that He, too, might _fulfill all righteousness_. Jesus told the Jewish ruler that except a man were _born of water and of the Spirit_ he could not enter the Kingdom of God. He commanded His disciples to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." Peter, while preaching under the influence of the Holy Ghost, told the people on the day of Pentecost to repent and _be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins_. The Lord Himself sent Ananias to Saul of Tarsus to tell him to arise and _be baptised and wash away his sins_. We preach the same doctrine that was taught by Christ and His Apostles, and say unto you, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, _for the remission of sins_, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

VI.--THE HOLY GHOST.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):--According to the doctrine of your Church a man must be born of water and of the Spirit before he can enter the Kingdom of God.

Latter-day Saints:--In this we simply reiterate what Jesus said to the anxious Jewish ruler, Nicodemus. These are His words: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.) These are the words of the Son of God, and whenever He speaks all discussion should be closed.

The World:--You explained to us in the last examination that being born of the water means being baptized in water: what are we to understand by being born of the Spirit?

Latter-day Saints:--To be born of the Spirit means to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. All men must receive these two baptisms before they can become the sons of God. By being born of the flesh we become the sons of men: by being born of the water and of the Spirit we become the sons of God. We desire you to hear the testimony of John the Baptist on this important matter.

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TESTIMONY OF JOHN THE BAPTIST.

The World:--John, you told us on two former occasions that you were sent of God to prepare the way for His Only Begotten Son. What did you teach the people they had to do in order to be accepted of the Lord and admitted into His Kingdom?

John:--I told them that they would have to repent, and be baptized in water for the remission of their sins. I promised the people that, if they would do these things, when Christ would come He would baptize them with a higher baptism--the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire. (Matt. 3: 11.)

The World:--You baptized the Christ?

John:--I did. The ordinance was performed in the river Jordan. As soon as Jesus came up out of the water the heavens were opened and the Spirit of God descended like a dove and rested upon Him, and then was heard the voice of God out of heaven, saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mark 1: 9-11.) Thus was Jesus born of the water and of the Spirit, and all men must follow the example of the Redeemer of the world if they expect to become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

The World:--Did you promise the Holy Ghost to all those whom you baptized?

John:--I did. I said to them, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." (Matt. 3: 11.)

The World:--You are excused, John.

Latter-day Saints:--Our next witness is the Apostle John.

TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLE JOHN.

The World:--You are an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John:--I am.

The World:--John the Baptist promised those who believed in Christ and who had repented and been baptized for the remission of their sins that the Messiah would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Did you receive that higher baptism?

John:--I did, but not until Christ had fulfilled His mission and had returned to His Father. While the Savior was with us He was our Teacher, our Guide and our Comforter; but when He ascended up on high we received from the Father the other Comforter, the Holy Ghost, who was to {383} abide within us forever. During His sojourn with us, Jesus referred quite often to the Divine Spirit which His Father would confer upon us after His departure. On different occasions He said to us: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14: 26.) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15: 26.) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you." (John 16: 13, 14.) "And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto the magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in that same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke 12: 11, 12.) "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16: 7.) "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father unto you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24: 49.)

The World:--How was the Holy Ghost conferred upon the people?

John:--Through prayer and by the imposition of hands.

The World:--Did you receive the Holy Ghost in this manner?

John:--I did, and so did the rest of the Apostles. Jesus said to us, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever." (John 14: 16.) He led us out as far as Bethany, where He lifted up His hands and blessed us; He then breathed on us, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (Luke 24: 50; John 20: 22.)

The World:--That is all, John.

Latter-day Saints:--Our next witness, the Apostle Peter, is ready to be examined.

The World:--We will listen to his testimony.

PETER TESTIFIES.

The World:--Did you also receive from Christ the promise of the Holy Ghost?

{384} Peter:--I did. After His resurrection, the Lord appeared to us as we were assembled together, and commanded us that we should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, "which," said He, "ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." (Acts 1: 4, 5.)

The World:--When did you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Peter:--On the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were assembled together, and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it rilled all the house where we were sitting. And there appeared unto us cloven tongues like of as fire, and it sat upon each of us. And we were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave us utterance. (Acts 2: 2-4.)

The World:--Were the Apostles the only ones who received the Holy Ghost?

Peter:--They were not. The Lord is not a respecter of persons; in every nation he that feareth God and keepeth His commandments is accepted of Him. John assured all his baptized converts that they would receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. After being endowed with the Divine Spirit, the Apostles stood up before a great multitude of people and bore witness of the resurrection of Christ. Thousands of people, on beholding the glorious outpouring of the Holy Ghost, and perceiving the power by which we spake, were pricked in their hearts, and cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This is what I said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2: 38, 39.)

The World:--Did Christ give you authority to confer the Holy Ghost upon those who believed on your words and obeyed the Gospel?

Peter:--He did, and also to the other Apostles. He said to us: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1: 8.) After His resurrection the Lord appeared unto us and commissioned us to go forth and preach the Gospel. "Go ye into all the world," said He, "and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that {385} believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." (Mark 16: 15-18.)

The World:--Did the people who accepted the Gospel of Christ in the days of your ministry receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Peter:--They did. The Lord confirmed the words of His servants by pouring out His Holy Spirit upon those who repented of their sins and who were baptized by Divine authority for the remission of their sins.

The World:--How was the Holy Ghost conferred?

Peter:--By prayer and by the imposition of the hands of authorized servants of God.

The World:--Can you refer us to an occasion when the Holy Ghost was given to believers?

Peter:--On one occasion Philip went down to Samaria and preached the Gospel to the inhabitants of that city. "And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them; and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. * * * When they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." (Acts 8: 5-7, 12.) While Philip had authority to preach the Gospel, and also to baptize, he did not have authority to confer the Holy Ghost. He, therefore, sent word to the Apostles at Jerusalem, acquainting them of the work which he had performed in Samaria, and requesting them to send men endowed with higher authority, to confirm the baptized converts and to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. John and I were sent down to Samaria, and when we met with the converts there we prayed for them, after which we laid our hands upon them, and the Holy Ghost came upon them. (Acts 8: 14-17.)

The World:--We will now excuse you, Peter.

The World:--We have been taught that the signs spoken of by Peter were only to follow the Apostles and the believers in that age; that they were given to assist in establishing Christianity; and that when Christianity became established they were done away with and were no longer needed.

Latter-day Saints: We know that that is the teaching of {386} professed ministers of the Gospel, but it is in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles. "Christ places His preaching, believing, salvation, and the signs that were to follow, all on an equal footing; where one was limited, the other must be; where one ceased, the other did. If the language limits the signs to the Apostles, it limits salvation to them also. If no others were to have these signs follow them then no others were to believe, and no others were to be saved. If the language limits these signs to the first age or ages of Christianity, then it limits salvation to the first ages of Christianity, for one is as precisely as much limited as the other; and where one is in force, the other is; and where one ends, the other must stop. As well might we say, preaching of the Gospel is no longer needed; neither faith nor salvation; these were only given at first to establish the Gospel, as to say, the signs are no longer necessary, they were only given at first to establish the Gospel."

The World--We will now excuse you, Peter.

Latter-day Saints:--We have another witness, the Apostle Paul.

The World:--We are ready to hear his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:--Paul, after your conversion did you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Paul--I did. Ananias, being sent of the Lord, came to me in Damascus, and placing his hands upon me, said: "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou earnest, has sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9: 17.)

The World:--Did anyone ever receive the Holy Ghost under your administration?

Paul:--Yes, many. On one occasion, while Apollos was at Corinth, I passed through the upper coasts and came to Ephesus. There I found certain disciples who told me that they had been baptized. I asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed, and they answered that they had not--that they had not even heard of the Holy Ghost. I asked them with what baptism they had been baptized, and they replied, "Unto John's baptism." I told them that John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. I {387} then laid my hands upon them and prayed for them that the Lord would bestow upon them His Holy Spirit. The Lord hearkened unto my prayer and acknowledged my administration, for the Holy Ghost came upon them and they spake with tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19: 1-6.) Timothy also received this precious gift by the laying on of my hands. (II Tim. 1: 6.)

The World:--How does the Holy Ghost operate upon those who receive it?

Paul:--In divers ways. "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (I Cor. 12: 4-11.) All these gifts, and many others, were enjoyed by the primitive Christians, and were inseparably connected with the true Gospel of Christ.

The World:--Did you not write an epistle to the Corinthian saints in which you told them that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, etc., would cease?

Paul:--I did. I told them that such gifts would cease when that which is perfect should come. I read from my epistle: "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. * * * For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known." (I Cor. 13: 8-10, 12.) I wrote an epistle to the Ephesians, in which I told them that the spiritual gifts which Christ had placed in His Church were to continue "_till we all come to the unity of the faith_." The following is an extract from my epistle: "Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of {388} the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph. 4: 8, 11-13.)

The World:--The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints):--Do the members of your Church enjoy the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Latter-day Saints:--They do. "We believe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now as much as they were in the days of the Apostles; we believe that the revelations of the Holy Ghost are necessary to organize the Priesthood; that no man can be called to fill any office in the ministry without it; we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, in revelations, in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the Holy Ghost; we believe that holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and that holy men in these days speak by the same power; we believe in its being a comforter and a witness-bearer; that it brings things past to our remembrance, leads us into all truth, and shows us of things to come; we believe that no man can know that Jesus is the Christ but by the Holy Ghost."

The World:--Have you received authority from the Lord to confer the Holy Ghost upon those who comply with the laws and ordinances of the Gospel?

Latter-day Saints:--We have. The authority was conferred upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by the Apostles Peter, James and John.

The World:--Have the gifts of the Holy Ghost been made manifest in this dispensation?

Latter-day Saints:--They have. On the evening of March 27th, 1836, Joseph Smith met the quorums of the Priesthood in the Kirtland Temple and instructed them respecting the ordinance of the washing of feet, and in relation to the spirit of prophecy. He called upon the congregation to speak, and not to fear to prophesy good concerning the Saints; "for if you prophesy," said he, "the falling of these hills, and the rising of the valleys, the downfall of the enemies of Zion, and the rising of the Kingdom of God, it shall come to pass. Do not quench the Spirit, for the first one that shall open his mouth shall receive the Spirit of prophecy." Brother George A. Smith arose, and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple, and all the congregation simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many began to speak in tongues, and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and the Temple was filled with angels, which fact the Prophet declared to the congregation. The people of the neighborhood {389} came running together, hearing an unusual sound within, and seeing a bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the Temple, and were astonished at what was transpiring." (Compendium pp. 267-8.)

The World:--Do you promise the Holy Ghost to all those who repent and obey the Gospel which you preach?

Latter-day Saints:--We do. In sending forth His servants in these last days to proclaim the glad tidings of the Gospel of peace, the Lord said: "Therefore go ye into all the world, and whatsoever place ye cannot go into ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature. And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God's high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me--ye are my friends; therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost; and these signs shall follow them that believe. In my name they shall do many wonderful works; in my name they shall cast out devils; in my name they shall heal the sick; in my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf; and the tongue of the dumb shall speak; and if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them; and the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them. But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world, for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation. Verily, verily I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water, in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father's Kingdom, where my Father and I am. And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it." (Doc. and Cov. 84: 62-75.) All who will, with honest hearts, receive the message which we bear--the message that God the Father has in these last days restored through the ministration of angels, the everlasting Gospel--shall receive a testimony by the manifestations of the Holy Spirit of its Divine authenticity. And these manifestations shall be such as to give them perfect knowledge of its truth.

VII. BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD.

Latter-day Saints:--Before proceeding further, permit us {390} to ask you a question or two: Have we not proved, and that, too, beyond all controversy, that a living, active and abiding faith in God the Father, and in His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is indispensable to man's salvation?

The World:--You have shown that, in order for a man to please God, not to mention being saved of Him, he must have faith in Him, and in His Son Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.

Latter-day Saints:--Have we not proven most conclusively that men must repent of their sins and turn away from their iniquities before they can gain access to the Kingdom of God?

The World:--Sufficient evidence has been given to prove that sincere and genuine repentance must be exhibited in the lives of all men who hope for salvation, for the decree has gone forth that no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Latter-day Saints:--Have we not proven that the proper mode of baptism is immersion, and that the object of baptism is for the remission of sins?

The World:--The testimony of your witnesses in regard to the mode, object and essentiality of baptism cannot be refuted. Christ's answer to Nicodemus--"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God"--should put an end to all discussion on that subject.

Latter-day Saints:--Have we not proven that after a man has complied with the ordinance of baptism, he must receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands of authorized servants of God?

The World:--Such was the practice in the primitive church. After baptism the Apostles confirmed the believers by the laying on of hands, with prayer, and conferring the Holy Ghost.

Latter-day Saints:--These are the first principles of the Gospel of Christ, and the Apostle Paul has declared that "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1: 8.)

The World:--You have laid before us in a most clear and convincing manner the plan of salvation. Permit us now to ask you, What is to become of those who have died in ignorance of the Gospel of Christ?

Latter-day Saints:--Our reply to that question is this: God is a God of mercy and justice. He does not seek a crop where there has been no seed sown. All those who have died {391} in ignorance of the Gospel are in the hands of Him whose nature and whose name is Love, whose desire is that all His children may be saved and brought to a knowledge of the truth. He has made provision whereby the glad tidings of great joy which the angel brought to the shepherds on the morning of the Savior's birth shall be proclaimed unto every son and daughter of God. The Creator has made of one blood all nations that dwell on the earth. There is no respect of persons with God. His glorious plan of redemption was not revealed for the benefit of a favored class. When the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds on the plains of Judaea, he said unto them, "Behold, I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to _all_ people." (Luke 2: 10.) Now, it is an undisputed fact that millions had died before that time without having heard those good tidings, just as millions have died since whose ears have never been saluted with the good news of the Savior's birth, and of the great redemption which He purchased for the whole human family by the shedding of His most precious blood. Who could be so lost to all reason as to think for a moment that God would consign to everlasting punishment all those who died in absolute ignorance of His Divine laws? We now ask you, as Paul asked the Roman saints, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10: 14.) But here is the Apostle Peter, a recognized authority on the doctrine of Christ. Hear what he has to say in the subject.

TESTIMONY OF PETER.

The World:--Peter, would you have us believe that the Gospel is preached to those who die in ignorance of its Divine truths?

Peter:--I am surprised to hear you ask such a question when so much has been written on the matter. Jesus Christ came, not to save the living only, but the dead also. He declared that if He were lifted up from the earth He would draw _all_ men unto Him, (John 12: 32), and that the hour was coming when the dead, as well as the living, would hear His voice. (John 5: 25.)

The World:--Then, according to your testimony, Christ after having preached the Gospel to men in the flesh, went also and preached the same Gospel to those who had died without having heard of its saving principles?

Peter:--He did; and not to them only, but also to those {392} who rejected it when it was preached to them on the earth.

The World:--This is certainly strange doctrine to us. Our ministers have never taught us that the dead could be saved as well as the living.

Peter:--That is because they do not understand the Scriptures. The men who wrote the Scriptures wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and in order for men to understand the writings of the prophets and other inspired servants of God, they must be in possession of the same Spirit, for "the things of God knoweth no man but by the Spirit of God." If you will permit me, I will endeavor to make the Scriptures plain to your understanding. Noah, as you all know, was a preacher of righteousness. He was called by the Lord to preach the Gospel to the people of his generation. But they refused to listen to his warning; they turned deaf ears to his entreaties, and at last the Lord came out in judgment upon them and destroyed them from the face of the earth. But did He then cast them off forever? No, indeed. The Lord does not keep His anger forever. He had prepared a place for them, for in His house there are many mansions. He had prepared a prison-house for the wicked and rebellious, and when the antediluvians were destroyed in the flesh, their spirits were shut up in the Lord's prison-house, where they were kept for thousands of years, or in other words, till they had paid the uttermost farthing.

The World:--And did those people have the opportunity afterwards of again hearing the Gospel?

Peter:--I am coming to that. I told you those spirits were shut up in prison for thousands of years. Now, I do not ask you to accept of my testimony alone concerning this matter. I am going to read to you what Isaiah the Prophet has written concerning the Lord's prison-house and its inmates. Here are his words: "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." (Isaiah 24: 22.) Now, let us stop for a moment and analyze this Scripture. There is a depth of meaning in it, I assure you. Writing was not done with such ease in Isaiah's time as it is today. The prophet did not pen the words which I have read just for pastime--they were written for our profit and learning. He pointed out most clearly the fate of those who would not hearken to the voice of the Lord or of His servants, but spent the days of their probation in gratifying their carnal appetites. They were to be gathered together as prisoners, and shut up in a prison, where they were to be {393} confined for many days. But they were not to be left without hope. The promise was made that when they had paid the penalty for their misdeeds they would be visited. This, according to the words of the prophet was part of Christ's missionary work: He was to preach redemption not only to the living, but to the dead as well; He was to visit the prisoners in the prison-house and preach deliverance to them. I quote again from his writings: "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house." (Isaiah 42: 6, 7.) Now, I desire to remind you that Christ confirmed this prophecy of Isaiah. He told the people that it referred to Him, and that it would be fulfilled in Him. Standing up in the synagogue in Nazareth one Sabbath day He quoted Isaiah's prophecy, as follows: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4: 18, 19.) So, you see that part of Christ's work was to preach deliverance to the captives, and open the prison to those who were bound.

The World:--When did the Messiah perform that work?

Peter:--During the three days that His body lay in the tomb.

The World:--Was His Spirit not with His Father during that time?

Peter:--According to Christ's own testimony it was not. When the Lord appeared to Mary, after His resurrection, He told her to touch Him not, for He had not yet ascended to His Father. (John 20: 17.) In two epistles which I wrote to the Saints in early days I made special reference to Christ's visit to the spirits in prison. This is what I said: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (I Peter 3: 18-20.) "For for this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, {394} but live according to God in the spirit." (I Peter 4: 6.) While this doctrine may be strange to you, it was quite well understood by the Saints in former days.

The World:--We thank you, Peter, for your testimony.

Latter-day Saints:--Before calling another witness we will quote to you the comments of Professor A. Hinderkoper, a German writer, and Bishop Alford, on the words of Peter. The former says: "In the second and third centuries every branch and division of the Christian Church, so far as their records enable us to judge, believed that Christ preached to the departed spirits." (Haley's Discrepancies of the Bible.) Bishop Alford says: "I understand these words (I Peter 3: 19) to say that our Lord in his disembodied state, did go to the place of detention of departed spirits, and did there announce His work of redemption; preach salvation in fact, to the disembodied spirits of those who refused to obey the voice of God when the judgment of the flood was hanging over them." We now respectfully ask you to listen to what the Apostle Paul has to say on this matter.

PAUL'S EVIDENCE.

The World:--Paul, do you believe that the Gospel is preached to men after they depart this life?

Paul:--I do. I corroborate all that the Apostle Peter has said concerning salvation for the dead. This doctrine was well understood by the people in our day. Jesus, you remember, told Nicodemus that except a man were born of water and of the Spirit, he could not enter the Kingdom of God. Now, in those days the people asked the same question that many people ask today, "If baptism is essential to salvation, what is to become of those who have died without having been baptized?" Had the Lord failed to make provision for such people, it would have revealed an imperfection in the plan of salvation, which is not the case, for "the law of the Lord is perfect." Peter has told you that the Gospel was preached to the dead; I taught the people the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Here is what I wrote to the Corinthians: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (I Cor. 15: 20.) The Saints in former times believed in and performed a vicarious work for the dead--they were baptized for their dead. But after the death of the Apostles men transgressed the laws and changed the ordinances of the Gospel, in consequence of which darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people.

{395} The World:--You are excused, Paul.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):--We desire to call your attention to a prophecy which was made by Malachi. He prophesied as follows: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Mal. 4: 5, 6.) Now, we testify to you, in all soberness, that this prophecy has been literally fulfilled. On the 3rd day of April, 1836, the Prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple. Addressing them he said: "Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi; testifying that I should be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse. Therefore the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands, and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors." We have built a number of temples, in which baptism and other ordinances have been performed in behalf of millions of our dead relatives and friends. This is also in fulfillment of the prophecy of Micah, who said: "But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Micah 4: 1, 2.) The work for the dead is still in progress. The hearts of the fathers are being turned to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers. Blessed are all those who engage in this glorious work, for great shall be their joy when they meet their loved ones who have passed beyond the veil, and for whom they stood as saviors upon Mount Zion.

VIII.--DIVINE AUTHORITY.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):--Do you claim to have received authority from the Lord to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof?

Latter-day Saints:--We do. The Lord has in these last days restored, through the ministering of angels, both the {396} Aaronic and Melchisedek Priesthood, empowering His servants to preach the Gospel, baptize repentant believers for the remission of their sins, confirm them members in His Church, and by prayer and the imposition of hands call down upon them the Holy Ghost.

The World:--Must a man be called of God and divinely appointed before he can preach acceptably the Gospel of Jesus Christ and administer its ordinances?

Latter-day Saints:--He must, as the Apostle Paul and others will testify.

#TESTIMONY OF PAUL. # The World:--Paul, do you consider it absolutely necessary in order for a man to preach the Gospel and administer in its ordinances, for him to be called of God and ordained by those holding Divine authority?

Paul:--I do. In every dispensation of the world the Lord has chosen certain men to represent Him among the people. These He called, either by His own voice or by the voice of His servants whom He had previously chosen.

The World:--Can you cite us a few examples of the calling of men to the ministry?

Paul:--I can. The Lord called Noah to be a preacher of righteousness to the people of his generation; and when they would not hearken to the testimony of His authorized servant, the Lord destroyed them from the earth. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were called in like manner for the work which the Lord had appointed them.

The World:--How were they called?

Paul:--They were called by direct revelation from heaven, the Lord speaking to them by His own voice. To Abraham He said: "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing; * * * and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." (Gen. 12: 1-3.) Isaac and Jacob were called in a similar manner. (Gen. 28: 2-5; 28: 10-15.)

The World:--Would it be improper for a man to preach the Gospel and administer its ordinances without his having been divinely commissioned to do so?

Paul:--It would, indeed. No man has a right to take such honor unto himself except he be called of God, as was Aaron. Permit me to read a couple of extracts from my epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. This is what I said:

{397} "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach except they be sent?" (Rom. 10: 14, 15.) "And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." (Heb. 5: 4.)

The World:--How was Aaron called to the ministry?

Paul:--He was called of the Lord through the Prophet Moses. As you well know, the Lord spoke to Moses out of the burning bush, commissioning him to go on a mission to Egypt and deliver the children of Israel. Moses reminded the Lord that he had an impediment in his speech, when the Lord said to him: "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do." (Exodus 4: 14, 15.) "And the Lord said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him. And Moses told Aaron all the words of the Lord who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded him." (Exodus 4: 27, 28.)

The World:--When men are called of the Lord, through His inspired servants, to minister unto the people, is it necessary for them to be ordained and set apart for their respective duties by the laying on of the hands of the Lord's servants?

Paul:--It is. Such has been the practice in every Gospel dispensation. Joshua, the son of Nun, was set apart, as directed of the Lord, through the imposition of hands by Moses. Let me read to you what Moses has written on this matter: "And the Lord said unto Moses, take thee Joshua, the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay thine hands upon him; and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put some of thine honor upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. * * * And Moses did as the Lord commanded him: and he took Joshua, and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation: and he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses." (Num. 27: 18-20, 22, 23.)

The World:--Paul, in what way were you called to the ministry, and by whom were you ordained?

Paul:--I was called by the Holy Ghost, and was ordained {398} under the hands of Simeon, Lucius and Manaen. You will find a record of my call and ordination in the 13th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, as follows: "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers: as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." (Acts 13: 1-3.)

The World:--We have no further questions to ask you, Paul.

Latter-day Saints:--We now respectfully ask you to hear what the Apostle Peter has to say on this very important subject.

PETER'S TESTIMONY.

The World:--Were you called of the Lord and ordained to take part in His ministry?

Peter:--I was. You will find an account of my call and ordination, as well as that of the other eleven apostles, in the third chapter of Mark's Gospel. It is as follows: "And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom He would: and they came unto him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach." (Mark 3: 13, 14.) "Ye have not chosen me," said Jesus, "but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." (John 15: 16.)

The World:--Must a man be called of God and ordained by Divine authority before he can hold an office in the Church of Christ?

Peter:--He must. The death of Judas left a vacancy in the quorum of Apostles. In choosing his successor we appealed to the Lord to manifest to us His mind and will in the selection of a man to fill the vacancy. There were two men. Barnabas and Matthias, whom we considered equally worthy of the honor. We presented these two men before the Lord in prayer and said, "Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show which of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." (Acts 1: 24, 25.) It was revealed to us that Matthias was {399} the Lord's choice, and he was appointed by unanimous vote.

The World:--Are we to understand from what you have said that it was the desire of the Lord that Apostles and Prophets and all the other officers should continue in the Church?

Peter:--Such, indeed, was the desire of the Lord. If it had not been, He would not have appointed a successor to Judas.

The World:--Our ministers have told us that Apostles and Prophets are not necessary in these days; that they were placed in the Church to establish Christianity, and that when Christianity was established they were no longer needed.

Peter:--There is nothing in the Scriptures to warrant such an assertion. On the contrary, it is most positively stated that the Lord put these officers in the Church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." And they were to remain in the church "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive." (Eph. 4: 12-14.)

The World:--How was the primitive Christian Church organized?

Peter:--It was "built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." (Eph. 2: 20.) The Lord placed in the Church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc. (Eph. 4: 11.)

The World:--The churches of the world are not organized after that pattern?

Peter:--They are not. They were not established by Christ. Had Christ established them, He would have put in them the same officers that He put in the early Christian Church. The Churches of the world were established by men. They are named after men. There is Saint Paul's Church, Saint Peter's Church, Saint Mark's Church, Saint Luke's Church, Saint John's Church, etc.

The World:--There seems, therefore, to have been an apostasy from the primitive Christian Church?

Peter:--There has. The Scriptures are replete with prophecies concerning the great apostasy which was to take place after the death of the apostles. Permit me to call your attention to a few of them. Have you a Bible at hand?

{400} The World:--We have.

Peter:--Turn to the fourth chapter of Paul's second epistle to Timothy and read what he prophesied concerning the apostasy that was to take place.

The World:--Paul prophesied as follows: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap unto themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (II Tim. 4: 3,4.)

Peter:--Now turn to the 29th chapter of Isaiah and read what the prophet said concerning the state of the world in the last days.

The World:--Isaiah prophesied as follows: "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. Wherefore the Lord said, forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men; therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." (Isaiah 29: 9, 10, 13, 14.)

Peter:--How perfectly did Paul describe the condition of the world at the present time! Instead of having inspired Apostles and Prophets to reveal to them the mind and will of the Lord, and to teach to them the true plan of salvation, the people have heaped to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they have turned their ears away from the truth and turned them unto fables. When you think of the multitude of jarring and contending sects that are in the world today, you can see how literally the prophecies of Paul and Isaiah have been fulfilled.

The World:--Were Paul and Isaiah the only ones who prophesied concerning an apostasy?