Chapter XII: Part 12

6849. The kidnapping and the wars being for the purpose of supplying the slave market?--Undoubtedly, in my opinion.

6850. _Chairman._] Do you derive your information of the internal condition of the Africans from investigations of your own, or from what you have read?--Partly from inquiries I made while in shore at the Gallinas and up the Nunez.

6851. You do not believe that, generally speaking, the chiefs, the owners of slaves in Africa, have the right of selling their own slaves?--By no means; I believe they dare not do it; that the population would at once rise against it.

6852. Mr. _Aldam_.] Do you consider that the slaves are generally prisoners taken in wars that have incidentally arisen, or that there are wars carried on for the purpose of making slaves?--I believe both to a great extent; I believe that wars are frequently begun for the purpose of taking prisoners and making slaves, and frequently by agreement between two chiefs, who dare not sell their own people. They go to war in order to take each other’s people.

6853. Mr. _Forster_.] Did you hear of instances of that kind while you were in the country?--I have heard statements of that kind from persons conversant with the country up the rivers, and also from the natives.

6854. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Referring to the letter which you have produced from the chiefs of Sea-bar, was that letter written by a native?--It was written undoubtedly by a negro, whether a native of Sierra Leone, trading to Sea-bar, or whether one of the chiefs there, I cannot say; but I have seen natives write infinitely better than that.

6855. It is signed by Henry Tucker; who was that Henry Tucker?--He was one of the chiefs of the country in the neighbourhood of Sea-bar; they are a family who have dominion there.

6856. Was that chief, Tucker, educated at Sierra Leone?--I cannot say; I believe he was, but I am not sure about it.

6857. (To Captain _Hill_.) Are you aware by whom that letter was written?--I was at Sea-bar frequently, and have frequently seen Harry Tucker, and have also seen a person whom he introduced to me as his secretary, who, on conversation, I ascertained to be Harry Tucker’s son, and this son was writing letters for him; and I asked his son where he learned to write, and he told me that he was educated at Sierra Leone; and Harry Tucker also told me, that he sent two or three of his sons to Sierra Leone to learn to read and write.

6858. Then, it is your belief that that letter was written by a son of a native chief, who was educated at Sierra Leone?--Yes.

6859. Mr. _Aldam_, to Captain _Denman_.] Where is Sea-bar?--It lies between Sierra Leone and Gallinas. It is the passage between the south-eastern end of the Sherboro’ Island and the main land.

6860. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is “Sea-bar,” the place named in the letter, the same as the River “Shebar,” in the map?--It is the same.

6861. Mr. _Hamilton_.] Had you any opportunity of making any observation as to the climate of the Gallinas; how far it would be fit for Europeans to live there?--As far as my observations went, they were rather favourable, for I went in at not a very good time of the year, and, out of upwards of 100 men, I think that only two or three deaths occurred. I believe only two men died after having been on shore a week.

6862. Going up in the boats?--Yes.

6863. Is the ground swampy, or is there any high ground in the neighbourhood?--The ground is rather low, but some of the islands are as healthy as any of that part of Africa; indeed, the contrast between that river and some of the rivers we afterwards went up, at a more favourable season, was remarkable.

6864. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you not fall in with a vessel called the Echo, bringing a cargo of goods to the Coast of Africa?--I did, a Hamburgh vessel; I think it was on the 11th of December.

6865. Had you any reason to suspect her of having any connexion with the slave trade?--The officer who was sent on board her found that her cargo was consigned from the Havannah, I think from Charles Tyng to Mr. Canôt, a slave dealer at New Cestos, and she had also on board a Spanish supercargo, affording strong ground for suspecting her, indeed proof, that she was engaged in aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6866. Do you regard any commerce in which ships might be engaged with a slave factory as necessarily abetting the slave trade?--Not all commerce; but I consider that if she were sailing with goods consigned from one slave dealer to another she would be aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6867. _Chairman._] You mean that there could be no doubt of the guilty intent of the parties?--There could be no doubt of the guilty intent of the parties to aid and abet the slave trade.

6868. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you of an opinion that a Hamburgh vessel could not lawfully enter into a charter-party to the Havannah, to convey goods to a slave factory on the coast of Africa?--I think that where a Hamburgh vessel is carrying a cargo under the same circumstances I have described, it forms the strongest reason to suspect that she may be doing still worse.

6869. Mr. _Milnes_.] You searched that Hamburgh vessel?--Upon the 11th of December; it was late in the evening when I boarded her. The officer returned to me, reporting after a very imperfect search, indeed after no search, that he found on board nothing to condemn her, and that he had given a certificate to that effect.

6870. Do you think that that certificate was prematurely given?--No, that the search that I had to institute was under the treaty, and therefore I considered her entitled to a certificate, although I certainly intended, if I fell in with her again, to search her more perfectly, as I was not satisfied upon the subject; all I could say then was, that nothing was found.

6871. What time did the first search take?--It was not a search, it was a visit; it did not amount to a search; it was a visit to the ship, and some little examination, perhaps lifting the hatches; it was in one sense a search, but a most imperfect search; it did not occupy above half an hour.

6872. Did you afterwards see Mr. Canôt, upon the subject of that vessel?--I afterwards saw Mr. Canôt, not upon the subject of that vessel; he mentioned to me that he expected a vessel with a cargo.

6873. Under what circumstances did you search the Echo a second time?--Upon our arrival at New Cestos, considering her exposed to the worst suspicions, after I found that she was consigned to Mr. Canôt, I caused a most perfect search to be instituted; the hold was cleared, and she was thoroughly searched for slave equipments. It should be observed, that the right of search is never carried to anything like this extent, except in cases justifying the strongest suspicion.

6874. How long did that search take?--I think from the 15th to the 18th of December.

6875. Were you then satisfied by the result of that search that there were no grounds for seizing the Echo?--I certainly found nothing, in my opinion, to convict her; at that time there was nothing detected on board her to warrant detention; had there been, I should have detained her of course.

6876. Did you or your master entrust to the captain of the Echo certain captured Spaniards, to take to the Havannah?--When I was about to sail from New Cestos, I allowed a prize crew of Spaniards, who had been captured in a prize, to go on board this vessel, to endeavour to get a passage back to their own country.

6877. Did you use any persuasion to Captain Soms to call at Sierra Leone, as he states in the papers you have seen?--I never was on board her in the first place, and I never saw Captain Soms; in the second place, the master, on returning on board the Wanderer, told me, that he had advised the captain of the Echo to go to Sierra Leone with the view of getting passengers; subsequently, when I heard that the vessel was captured, I recollect distinctly saying to the master, “Oh, they will think you have betrayed them into the hands of the Sierra Leone government.” The advice was given without my authority, and without my knowledge until afterwards; but I saw no harm in the advice.

6878. Could the Echo have incurred any culpability with regard to the slave trade between the time when you examined her and her seizure at Sierra Leone?--Very possibly.

6879. How?--She might have entered into an arrangement to carry away a cargo of slaves from another part of the coast; she might have equipped herself for slave dealing; it does not at all follow because she was apparently free from liability to capture when I was on board her, that she should not have done something subsequently that rendered her so.

6880. You do not consider your having declared her to be innocent to be a sufficient ground for saying that she was not guilty at Sierra Leone at a subsequent period?--It was certainly no sort of guarantee against the consequences of any future proceedings that she might choose to take.

6881. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] It was not either a retrospective or a prospective guarantee; it was a guarantee only that on the 11th of December, when you visited her, she at that time had no _primâ facie_ evidence of being engaged in the slave trade; is that your impression upon the subject?--It was no particular guarantee, but it was a certificate which the treaties, under the authority of which I searched her, declared that I was to furnish her with; it was a certificate to the effect that the treaty required.

6882. _Chairman._] Was that certificate a security to her against any further search by any other man-of-war on the station?--It would probably operate against any further search, because they would not take the trouble to do it unless they had some new reason to suspect her; they would have no wish to cause unnecessary vexation.

6883. Is the certificate intended, in your view, to operate as a security against further trouble?--I think there are two motives for the certificate; one is, that there may be no concealment as to the ship which may have committed any wrong in the exercise of the right of search upon her; and secondly, to act as a sort of certificate with regard to others that may fall in with her; but if others have reason still to doubt her, in spite of that certificate, they are perfectly at liberty to search her again.

6884. Did you hear what became of the Echo afterwards?--I did not hear of her detention at Sierra Leone until the end of March, I think the 28th of March; I visited Sierra Leone a few days after I had boarded her, but before her arrival.

6885. Did you not hear that she was condemned?--I heard that she was condemned.

6886. Upon what ground?--My knowledge upon the subject is merely hearsay; all that I know is, that an officer of the Wanderer was at Sierra Leone, and I mention it in order to show that Sir John Jeremie was not moved by interested motives in seizing her, he was anxious that this officer should seize her as a prize to the Wanderer.

6887. Has the Governor any interest in seizures?--He has a proportion of the proceeds.

6888. Mr. _Forster_.] And he would be entitled to a proportion of the proceeds of the Echo when condemned at Sierra Leone?--Yes.

6889. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you ever fall in with any other Hamburgh vessel engaged in abetting the slave trade?--I fell in once with the Argus, at the Gallinas, when she was landing casks. I considered that a suspicious circumstance, although one not warranting seizure. I never met with any other.

6890. Have you ever heard that eight or any other number of Hamburgh vessels had proceeded from Hamburgh for the purpose of abetting the slave trade, or being engaged in it?--I think decidedly not.

6891. Mr. _Forster_.] If the Echo had been an English vessel, would you have seized her under the circumstances in which you found the Echo?--Undoubtedly, under the circumstances of the trade which she was carrying on.

6892. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you mean after the first or after the second search?--The search told nothing. It was the fact of her carrying goods from one slave dealer to another, with a Spanish supercargo on board, that would have proved to me that she was aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6893. Would you have seized her upon the knowledge of that fact alone?--Undoubtedly, if she had been an English vessel.

6894. _Chairman._] But being a foreign vessel, you did not think that ground sufficient to act upon?--Being a foreign vessel, I could not apply the English laws to her case. I could only apply the treaty to her case, and I held that according to the treaty only equipment would warrant a seizure, or slaves.

6895. Mr. _Milnes_.] Would you have had a right to seize that ship under those circumstances simply from the fact of her having a foreign supercargo?--Not upon that fact, but upon the fact of her carrying goods from one slave dealer to another slave dealer to buy slaves with.

6896. How do you know that it was to buy slaves with?--From the fact of their being both engaged in the slave trade.

6897. Was Mr. Canôt at that time avowedly engaged in the slave trade?--Mr. Canôt had, a very few days before the arrival of the Echo, given up all his slaves and abandoned the slave trade. It was a mere accidental circumstance their finding that Mr. Canôt was not then carrying on the slave trade.

6898. _Chairman._] They were consigned to him under the expectation that he was a slave dealer?--At the time the consignment took place he was a slave dealer, and no one at that time could have contemplated so sudden a change on his part.

6899. Mr. _Milnes_.] But at the time the Echo was there, Mr. Canôt was not engaged in the slave trade, and was under British protection?--Mr. Canôt had, a few days before, given up his slaves and abandoned the slave trade.

6900. But the parties who chartered the Echo could not have been aware of that fact?--They could not possibly have been aware of that fact.

6901. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Mr. Canôt was known to be concerned in the slave trade at the time the consignment was made?--Perfectly.

6902. Mr. _Forster_.] You do not think that Mr. Canôt in abandoning the slave trade, was at all influenced by the prospective arrival of this vessel, with a view to possessing himself of the cargo?--I do not see how he could have been influenced by that; because, under the circumstances, I could not have seized her, whether he had been carrying on the slave trade or not. On the other hand, although he had turned from the slave trade, yet, had I found any equipment upon her, I should have seized her. It made no difference whatever.

6903. Did he immediately avail himself of the services of the British squadron to remove the goods from New Cestos, the place to which they were consigned, to Monrovia?--It would be necessary to explain what had taken place at New Cestos with reference to Mr. Canôt, to understand what took place with respect to those goods. Mr. Canôt, on the 8th of December, voluntarily delivered his slaves to Lieutenant Seagram, commanding H. M. S. Termagant, stationed by me to blockade the place. Lieutenant Seagram then sailed, to land those slaves at Sierra Leone, carrying with him reports upon the subject for my information. I met at New Cestos his boats, and not having received any information from him, but only from the officer in charge of the boats, verbally, I left an order for him to the following effect: that if he was persuaded of Mr. Canôt’s integrity of purpose, and provided the slave trade was at an end, he was to afford him convenience and protection, and to assist him in establishing a factory for Redman & Co. at Cape Mount. After my departure, the goods consigned to Mr. Canôt were, I believe, landed at his factory, the supercargo being on board, and ready to object if there was any thing improper about it; and they were subsequently, according to the orders I had left, protected by Lieutenant Seagram, when embarked from the beach, the natives showing every disposition to resist the departure of Mr. Canôt.

6904. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you hear any thing at Sierra Leone about a buoy, in which the papers of the Echo were said to have been concealed?--I saw a buoy at the registrar’s office, at the Vice-Admiralty Court, which was hollowed out with a scuttle, and I was told that the papers had been concealed in this buoy. I should state, that on searching the Echo, there was no search for papers, because papers under the treaty with Hamburgh would not have been sufficient to condemn her. Equipments were what I searched for.

6905. Would any papers that you could have found have been sufficient to condemn her under the treaty with Hamburgh?--Had I found papers distinctly proving that she was intended to take slaves, I should have taken upon myself the responsibility of sending her to Hamburgh for trial, according to the treaty; because, although not according to the letter of the treaty, I believe the spirit of the Hamburgh treaty is entirely true and just, and I believe it would have been enforced.

6906. Would any papers found upon her in British waters cause her to be condemned, which would not cause her to be condemned if found in other waters?--Papers found upon her in British waters, proving her to be engaged in the slave trade, might certainly condemn her under our laws, as coming under our jurisdiction.

6907. Mr. _Forster_.] Did the registrar inform you that the hollow place in the buoy was intended to conceal papers, or that papers were found concealed in it?--He told me that papers had been concealed in it. He did not say that they had been found there, but that it had been used for that purpose.

6908. Did he say that papers of that nature had been found in it at Sierra Leone?--No, I think not.

6909. Mr. _Milnes_.] Have you known many instances of the crews of men-of-war boats remaining on board during a search of that kind, and conducting themselves improperly, taking articles out of the cargo for their own use?--Extremely rarely. In this instance I am aware that some of my ship’s company misbehaved themselves; but they, well knowing the punishment that awaited them, managed to desert.

6910. Did you order the return of the goods which they had taken?--There were no goods taken; I believe there was a bottle or two of champagne drunk.

6911. Did you order the men for punishment?--The men escaped; the master did not bring them back with him. They both died shortly afterwards, or rather one died and the other one was very badly wounded in the Termagant’s boats, and never returned to the Wanderer.

6912. Is it not very difficult to prevent the men from committing those abuses?--I think not when the officers are strictly vigilant; but upon this occasion Mr. Elliott had been induced to go on shore by some representations of Mr. Canôt, who wished to prove to him that his intentions were honest and upright as regarded his abandonment of the slave trade; and that accounted for it.

6913. Were the men left by themselves?--No, they were not; there were the officers of the Termagant employed also, in whose charge they were left.

6914. Mr. _Forster_.] What means do you suppose the master of the Echo would have at the Havannah of knowing the character and pursuits of Mr. Canôt, to whom he was consigned upon the charter-party?--If he had made the smallest inquiry, he could not have been in doubt for a moment.

6915. Where should he have made inquiry?--In the Havannah; Mr. Canôt was as well known in the Havannah as Pedro Blanco himself.

6916. Is it the duty of a merchant captain in search of trade at a foreign port to make inquiries as to the character and pursuits of his consignee in another country?--Applying it to an English captain, I should say that he was just as much bound to ascertain that he was not engaged in the slave trade as an apothecary, when he sells arsenic, is bound, as far as in him lies, to ascertain that it is not intended to poison any body.

6917. Mr. _Milnes_.] Is it common for a ship to be condemned, and for the captain at the same time to be declared not guilty of aiding and abetting in the slave trade?--It occurs frequently, upon the very principle of the difficulty of proof of the individual being wilfully and knowingly engaged in the slave trade.

6918. Is it supposed that a vessel can be engaged in the slave trade without the cognizance of the captain?--Engaged in the slave trade indirectly, as the Hamburgh ship, the Echo, was, I think is possible; it is very unlikely.

6919. You would say generally, that where the ship was condemned and the captain escaped, it was through some want of legal proof?--Through the want of bringing home the proof of his having actual knowledge of the tendency of the trade in which he was engaged.

6920. _Chairman._] Upon whom would the loss fall of the condemnation of the ship?--Upon the owners of the ship.

6921. The owners being in Hamburgh?--The owners being in Hamburgh.

6922. What control would they have over their ship in the Havannah, except through the medium of the captain?--They might have an agent there, who might be ordered to allow her to be taken up for freight to any part of the world, and who might send the goods on board; and the master might not know what part of Africa he was going to till the moment before he loosed sails.

6923. But a guilty knowledge on the part of some party is necessary to the condemnation of the vessel, is it not?--Yes, it is.

6924. In such cases as those, would the articles have nothing on the face of them in the character of equipment, to serve the purposes of the slave trade?--Not necessarily.

6925. Where can the guilty knowledge reside which shall condemn the vessel and the goods consigned, if the captain is supposed not to have possessed it?--The guilty knowledge, in my opinion, might be presumed. It is the duty of owners to take care that their ships are not turned into pirates or into smugglers, and if they are turned into smugglers or pirates, they must take the consequences; and so if they break other laws I conceive.

6926. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you know other instances of ships being condemned, and the captains acquitted?--Yes; the Augusta, captured by Captain Hill, was a case of that description.

6927. Mr. _Forster_.] Is it not equally an offence on the part of the captain?--Undoubtedly so, if a guilty knowledge can be proved against him.

6928. You cannot prove a guilty knowledge in the case of the ship?--I think you may be able to show that the persons owning the ship or acting as agent for the owners may have had a guilty knowledge, where the master had no guilty knowledge.

6929. Mr. _Milnes_.] But you cannot legally sell the property of the captain when the captain himself is declared to be not guilty?--If the vessel was declared guilty by a proper court, undoubtedly that is a consequence of the condemnation.

6930. Would the individual property of the captain himself be included in the condemnation?--I believe the doctrine always has been, that the whole property on board the ship is vitiated by her being engaged in the slave trade. But these questions are all questions as to the construction of the Act of Parliament of the 5th of George the 4th, which I do not feel competent to interpret in this manner, although I see my way clearly enough to act upon it.

6931. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that the mere conveyance as a common carrier of goods from the Havannah to the coast of Africa, is an act of slave dealing?--Not the common carrying of goods: but if she is carrying goods from Pedro Blanco to Mr. Canôt, I do not call that a common act of carrying. It is the act of carrying goods for a specific purpose between two persons engaged in a criminal trade.

6932. Mr. _Milnes_.] Could not Pedro Blanco and Mr. Canôt have mercantile communications which should be of an indisputably legal character?--They might, but they indisputably have no such commerce except in the smallest degree possible. There was some little palm-oil trade carried on by Mr. Canôt. I believe Mr. Canôt’s evidence was not taken upon the question, but Mr. Canot made no secret of the purposes to which that cargo would have been applied by him.

6933. Mr. _Forster_.] Supposing arsenic to be conveyed from London to Manchester, and there made an illegal use of, would you consider the carrier responsible in that case?--No, but I think that supposed case applies to the carriage of goods from England to the Havannah, and not from the Havannah to a slave factory in Africa. If you suppose the case of the person at the place to which the arsenic was sent, and the person who sends it, both being employed in poisoning people, I should think in that case the carrier would be culpable, supposing him to be aware of the fact.

6934. Do you consider it illegal for an English vessel to convey a cargo of merchandise from the Havannah to a person engaged in the slave trade on the coast of Africa?--Supposing they are sent by a person engaged in the slave trade.

6935. Do you consider it illegal for an English vessel to convey a cargo of goods to a notorious slave dealer at the Havannah?--No, I do not.

6936. On what ground do you draw the distinction between the two cases?--I think the one is more directly aiding and abetting the slave trade than the other; the other is in a much more remote degree. I have before stated that I thought it was morally wrong.

6937. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you recollect whether the fitting up of the vessel was such that it could have taken back a cargo of slaves, supposing Mr. Canôt had still been concerned in the slave trade?--She would only have had to get a few casks and a few planks, and she might have taken back 700 or 800 slaves with the greatest ease Any vessel can be fitted up as a slaver.

6938. Then your impression is that that vessel arrived there expecting to find Mr. Canôt engaged in the slave trade, and was disappointed at finding that he had abandoned it?--Undoubtedly, they still supposed him to be engaged in the slave trade; but how far the disappointment went I cannot say. The goods were landed to him still, although there was a supercargo on board, which is a strong reason to suppose that Mr. Canôt was not robbing his employers, as was suggested.

6939. Mr. _Forster_.] Was it not the fact, that it was not till after they had been landed that the goods were removed to Cape Mount?--But they had been promised to be removed before. The promise was given that his goods should be removed to Cape Mount, under the protection of the British flag, because it was well understood that the natives would resist the removal of Mr. Canôt; they wanted to have a slave dealer.

6940. What back cargo could the Echo have taken from Mr. Canôt, except slaves?--She could have taken nothing approaching to a cargo; there were a few casks of palm oil, but wholly insufficient for the cargo of such a vessel.

6941. _Chairman._] Could she not have taken money?--She could have taken money or bills, but nothing in the shape of cargo.

6942. Is not the greater part of the slave trade on the coast of Africa carried on upon the principle of one vessel bringing a cargo and taking back money, and another vessel being employed to take away slaves?--It is. In most of those cases, the principal slave dealer is resident at the Havannah; and in all cases almost the freight of the former is paid for in the Havannah. There is no money or goods taken out in the vessel intended to carry back slaves.

6943. There is nothing, in the course of the slave trade on the coast of Africa, which leads you to imagine that a vessel which carries goods to the coast must necessarily intend to carry slaves back?--No; there is only one instance which I know, when I was upon the coast during the last two years, of such an attempt. With respect to Mr. Canôt, there is one fact with regard to his conduct which is highly in his favour. Some time after the slaves were delivered up, the natives got some goods from him, and tried to endeavour to induce him to resume the slave trade. They went and bought 50 slaves with those goods. He gave information on the subject, and through him the slaves were delivered up to Lieutenant Seagram. Throughout his whole conduct I have the strongest reason to suppose that he is most perfectly honest in his intention of abandoning the slave trade. He has always given me the fullest information with regard also to the resumption of the slave trade at New Cestos.

6944. _Chairman._] You had a good deal of intercourse with Mr. Canôt?--A good deal. I used to receive communications from him, giving me information with respect to the slave trade.

6945. What appears to have been the moving cause to induce him to abandon the slave trade?--I have reason to believe that he had for some time contemplated it; but the immediate cause was, that under the blockade he found that he could not follow out the commerce; that he could not get the slaves away.

6946. Mr. _Forster_.] Was the captain cognizant of Mr. Canôt having abandoned the slave trade previously to the landing of the cargo?--He states it himself in his complaint. He states that it was so; that he saw the English flag flying.

6947. Do not you consider that strong proof, that the captain of the Echo was no party to the slave trading transactions going on between the shipper and the consignee?--I can only suppose that the property was Mr. Canôt’s, and that he as an honest man felt himself bound to give it to him. Had it been Pedro Blanco’s own property, sent by him for Mr. Canôt to buy slaves with, I think the property would not have been allowed to be landed.

6948. If the captain had been in the secret as to the transactions between the house at the Havannah and Mr. Canôt, the captain, to protect the house in the Havannah, finding that Mr. Canôt had abandoned the slave trade, would not have delivered the goods?--He was paid for his freight. I suppose he did not care what became of the goods. Had he not landed the goods, he would have had to carry them back; he would have been unable to take freight back.

6949. Mr. _Milnes_.] Was none of the freight landed?--I believe all that was consigned to Mr. Canôt was landed after I sailed.

6950. How would Mr. Canôt have paid for it?--I have no idea how it was paid for. There are three theories to choose amongst; one is, that he robbed his employer’s goods without any set-off; another is, that his employers owed him something equivalent at least to the value of the goods; and the third is, that they were his own property. I refused to enter into the subject with him at all; I had nothing to do with his slave transactions; had it been amenable to seizure I should have seized it.

6951. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Does the slave trade increase or decrease, at the time of the senior officer on the station being changed?--It has generally been observed in the printed correspondence of the commissioners, and also from the observations of the officers on the coast, that the senior officers not having a practical knowledge of the coast, upon their first arrival there the cruizing is much less efficient for a certain time. It requires a long time for an officer to understand the duties of the coast.

6952. You have understood that frequently changing the officers is injurious to the suppression of the slave trade?--Such is my opinion; I think that three years is the proper time for an officer to be employed there. I think the service would suffer if they were removed more frequently.

6953. How long, speaking generally, does it take for an officer to acquire a tolerably competent knowledge of the duties on that coast?--Several months, certainly.

6954. Are the cruizers now obliged to leave their stations frequently, to get provisions?--They are obliged to leave their stations generally once in three or four months for that purpose, and during that period, of course, the slavers frequently escape. The period is longer or shorter, according to the distance of the depôts.

6955. Do not the slave traders generally obtain accurate information of the periods at which the cruizers will probably be absent?--They frequently do so by reasoning, and by observing the time at which the cruizers have received their supplies.

6956. Does the present state of the Bounty Acts afford due encouragement to exertions for the prevention of the slave trade, or might an alteration be made which would do more justice to those who are affected by those Acts?--In my opinion the present system of bounties is upon an extremely bad footing. It affords a great premium upon the capture of full vessels over empty vessels; whereas I believe the slave trade is to be stopped by the prevention of embarkation.

6957. How could the Act be altered, in your opinion, so as to make less difference between full vessels and empty vessels?--My opinion is, that there should be no difference whatever between them; that they should be paid upon the tonnage a bounty, calculated upon the average between the profit of a full vessel and an empty vessel of the same tonnage; that there should be no more head-money whatever; that the proceeds should not go to the captors; that the proceeds should go to the Government; that the reward of the captors should be only upon the tonnage.

6958. Abolishing head-money altogether?--Abolishing head-money altogether.

6959. _Chairman._] Do you conceive that Sierra Leone is well situated as a place for adjudication, under the present circumstances of the slave trade?--I think that it is the best place, under the present circumstances of the slave trade.

6960. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Can you suggest any improvement in the rigging of the ships employed on the coast, or in the boats with which they are furnished?--The cruizers employed upon the coast have the same masts and sails precisely in them as they would have in the North Sea, their duties lying altogether in the Tropics. In my opinion, with the same masts, a large increase of canvass, by making the sails squarer, would be of the utmost advantage.

6961. Are the boats now used the best adapted for that particular service?--I think every vessel, capable of carrying them, ought to carry two long six-oared galleys at her quarters, and that those that carry boats amidship should have as large boats as they can stow, and that they should be built so lightly as to be able to keep pace with the galleys. A much larger proportion have been captured by boats than by cruizing.

_Lunæ, 27º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Mr. W. Hamilton.
Mr. Milnes.

VISCOUNT SANDON in the chair.

Captain the Honourable _Joseph Denman_, R. N., called in; and further
examined.

6962. _Chairman._] Can you give the Committee any information with regard to the Kroo Coast; first as to the extent of the Kroo Coast?--The Kroo Coast, I conceive, begins at the river Cestros, the place known as St. George’s, where Mr. Spence had established a factory several years ago, which has been recently abandoned. The Kroomen occupy only five towns upon the coast at different places between the river Cestros and the Grand Cestros; to the northward of that the Bassa people lie intermixed with the Fishmen, and, occupying all the coast to the southward of the Grand Cestros, are the Fishmen, a different people from the Kroomen; they are often confounded with them, but there is a broad distinction between them. Intermixed with the five Kroo towns are many Fish places. The Kroomen occupy the interior of the country more than the Fishmen; the Fishmen are entirely upon the coast. Below Grand Cestros they are all Fish towns. The Fish people are much more numerous than the Kroomen. At a place called by the Fishmen Saucy Town, the natives from the interior fought their way down to the beach.

6963. What were they?--We have no means of knowing; they are quite different from any other races that we know of; at this the Fishmen are exceedingly angry, as they consider that they have a title to all the trade upon the coast. They have prohibited all trade with this place, and have committed many outrages against British vessels and others who have traded there in spite of their prohibition. The Fishmen are perfect pests to the trade upon the coast; they require keeping in order very much.

6964. Are they principally Kroomen or Fishmen who enter on board Her Majesty’s ships?--More Fishmen than Kroomen; we cannot employ them together.

6965. Is it the same with reference to mercantile vessels?--I am not aware, but I think the Fishmen are generally preferred, as they are more at home with boats and more accustomed to live on the water than the Kroomen.

6966. Do you call those principally Kroomen or Fishmen that live at Sierra Leone?--Both classes exist there, but I am not aware in what proportions; the Kroomen are preferred for domestic purposes; they are much more capable of attachment to white people.

6967. Have you any idea what the population is, whether of Fishmen or of Kroomen?--The population of the coast of Fishmen is much greater than that of Kroomen, but I always understood that the Kroomen ran a long way into the interior, and were an agricultural race; indeed if it was not so, I do not see how they could possibly exist against the hostility of the Fishmen, as their numbers on the sea-coast are very inferior; they are almost always at war.

6968. Are both Fishmen and Kroomen exempt from becoming slaves?--They are exempt from becoming slaves; at the only slave factories upon the coast, between Sierra Leone and Cape Palmas, Gallinas, and New Cestos, the work was entirely carried on by Fishmen, but they have a great objection to being slaves themselves; they are in the habit of sacrificing their enemies taken in war to the Fetish tree.

6969. Are you speaking of Fishmen or of Kroomen now?--Both; I have had opportunities of knowing that that is the fact.

6970. Do those parties bring slaves from distant parts in the interior, or is it upon neighbouring tribes that they make inroads in order to procure slaves?--I do not think the Fishmen or Kroomen are in the habit of collecting slaves at all; but they are very willing to lend themselves out to slave factories, to assist them in carrying on the traffic in every way.

6971. And to allow their territory to be made a place of embarkation for slaves?--I believe not; indeed there is no embarkation of slaves in their territory; nor nearer than Young Cestos.

6972. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Their willingness to hire themselves out to slavers is merely as a means of active employment?--Exactly so.

6973. Not from any preference to that employment?--They prefer it, I believe, because they are better paid for that than any thing else.

6974. _Chairman._] Have you had any opportunity of knowing the domestic condition of the Kroomen or the Fishmen; whether they are under the obligations of slavery to any parties?--No, there is no slavery in the Kroo or Fish country, although the system of every headman having his boys under him approaches something to it. The headman receives all the wages of all the boys under him; whether that is from family connexion, or from political institution, I do not know, but the headman receives all the pay of all the boys. A headman on board a man-of-war, for instance, will have 20 men under him, and he receives the whole of their wages.

6975. Do you always take on board a headman, for every number of Kroomen or Fishmen that you engage?--It is absolutely necessary to have a headman to keep them in order; he generally chooses all the people, we leave it to him to choose them. If Fishmen and Kroomen happen to be mixed up in the same party there are always quarrels and disturbances, indeed there is no getting on with them, so strong is the antipathy.

6976. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think, from what you know of those people, that they would be disposed to engage themselves as labourers in the West Indies, if proper means were taken to acquaint them with the nature of the service?--If proper means were taken, I have not the least doubt they might get thousands of them; the thing necessary is to produce confidence in their minds, and that would best be done by some man-of-war upon the coast taking over some of the headmen, upon a promise that they should be returned by the same ship.

6977. _Chairman._] You believe that they have confidence in a man-of-war?--I believe they have the greatest confidence in a man-of-war, and also in the English people; but they might fancy that abuses might take place, and that they might be made slaves of, unless they had the evidence of some of their own people.

6978. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think it would be possible for a man-of-war to discharge the duty of securing against any possible abuse in their embarkation?--I do not think it would be at all necessary to have a man-of-war for that purpose. I think you might safely leave them to take care of themselves. The only purpose for which a man-of-war need interfere, would be to give them a feeling of confidence in the first instance. They might object to go over in any thing but a man-of-war. I think the first impression is all that a man-of-war would be required for.

6979. Do you think these people might not take others with them against their will?--I think not; I do not think they hold slaves in any way; the mark of the race is so very distinct, that other races could not be mixed with them as emigrants without detection.

6980. _Chairman._] You think that the connexion between the chiefs and those companies of boys is rather a voluntary connexion, for the purpose of protection, than one of compulsion?--It is a voluntary connexion, because it exists equally strongly at Sierra Leone as any where else.

6981. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Have you any doubt that the commanders of one of Her Majesty’s ships could effectually prevent any embarkation of the natives against their will?--I do not think there would be the smallest necessity for a man-of-war to superintend the coast, except at first.

6982. Supposing no landing were allowed in the West Indies without a certificate of one of Her Majesty’s officers, would it be easy for the officer, before he gave such a certificate, to take effectual security against being imposed upon by the delivery of a person without his full consent?--It would be very easy to ascertain the fact; but the Kroo and Fish race are so distinct from all others, that I do not think there is the smallest apprehension of its taking the form of slavery.

6983. You mean so far as regards any embarkation from that part of the coast?--Yes, in British ships.

6984. Would it be equally safe on other parts of the coast?--It would be impossible in other parts, without perpetuating the slave trade, in my opinion.

6985. _Chairman._] What would be the difference between the two cases?--There are no other races upon the coast who leave their country voluntarily to labour. The only way in which it could possibly be expected that the natives would be obtained from any other part of the coast would be upon compulsion and upon sale, upon positive sale and nominal manumission afterwards, before embarkation; but that would hold out the same inducements to internal slave trade in Africa as the slave trade to Brazils or Cuba.

6986. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] You think it would be impossible to guard against fraud in that case?--It would be impossible to establish such a plan without perpetuating the slave trade.

6987. _Chairman._] On the Fish Coast, and on the Kroo Coast, you would not apprehend that the advantage given by any little presents to the chiefs on the departure of any of their people for the West Indies, might induce them to bring negroes from other parts of the country for the purpose of emigration?--I think negroes from other parts of the country would be immediately distinguished from the Kroomen.

6988. The security, then, you think would consist in the external marks of the Kroo and Fish people?--Yes. Moreover, the Kroomen and the Fishmen, on landing in the West Indies, would be always able to tell their own story; to speak English enough to make their case known.

6989. You do not mean that the Kroomen living inland speak English?--I suppose not; but all that I have ever seen have managed to make themselves understood; indeed I think it is possible they might have some idea of the English language inland, it is so universal amongst all that I have seen. It would be very easy to follow the plan supposed, to have a man-of-war stationed in that quarter, and known to be at a certain place; it would be very easy to require every emigrant ship to visit her, and receive a certificate from the captain before she sailed for the West Indies.

6990. Would you feel any difficulty in ascertaining certainly, against possibility of fraud, that those people were _bonâ fide_ volunteers?--There would not be the smallest difficulty.

6991. _Chairman._] You would call up the men and be able to ask them, either directly in English, or through interpreters, the circumstances under which they embarked?--Yes.

6992. And ascertain their knowledge of the object of the embarkation?--Yes; nothing would be more easy or more certain.

6993. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Supposing any man embarked were to say that he did not wish to go, what would you do with him?--He must give his presents back that he has received and go back himself.

6994. If he had been sent on board by compulsion, would he not run some risk on his landing?--I think it altogether repugnant to the customs of the country to force people on board; I do not think it is a thing at all to be apprehended.

6995. Mr. _Aldam_.] You think there would be no more difficulty in emigration from the Kroo Coast to the West Indies than in emigration from England to Canada?--There would be scarcely more difficulty; I should feel quite confident, that with the commonest care upon the part of the Governments in the West India islands, such a thing could not be abused.

6996. You think the one is as liable to abuse as the other?--Yes: I think the emigration from the coast of Africa would require a little more looking after.

6997. But the captain of a man-of-war might perform every duty that the emigration agent now performs in an English port?--Yes; I think a man-of-war stationed in the neighbourhood might do so.

6998. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think the Kroomen would be willing to leave their families?--I think they would be perfectly willing to remove without their families; you could not get them to take their families.

6999. For what length of time?--For three or four years; they have the greatest objection to remove their women; indeed it is impossible for any race to be more obstinately attached to their own habits and prejudices than the Kroo and the Fish races.

7000. Therefore their engagement would be of a temporary nature?--There is scarcely such a thing known as a Krooman to be absent from his country more than seven years.

7001. Mr. _Aldam_.] Would their absence in the West Indies, and the habits they would be likely to acquire there, tend to improve the manners of the people at home, upon their return?--I think it would have that effect to some small extent.

7002. And to introduce civilization?--To a very small extent; I do not think that much could be expected without other means.

7003. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Have they any means of education?--None whatever.

7004. _Chairman._] They have no contact with any white men, except some that come for the purpose of trading upon the coast?--And at the settlements of Sierra Leone and Liberia.

7005. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do they take opportunities of acquiring instruction on board ships?--No, I think not, except what they must learn to do their duties.

7006. Do they show any disposition to learn to read and write?--Not at all.

7007. Do you think that having learned the cultivation of sugar in the West Indies, they would be likely to introduce the same cultivation in their own country?--I think that at present they are not sufficiently enlightened to make it very probable.

7008. _Chairman._] Would the effect of considerable emigration from the Kroo Coast be to raise the rate of wages of the Kroomen employed in the navy, and on board merchant ships?--I should think very probably it might have that effect, but the wages now paid on board ships of war are much higher than are paid anywhere else.

7056. _Chairman._] Have you considered the subject of the removal of the Mixed Commission Court from Sierra Leone?--I have. I have heard that the places named as preferable are Fernando Po, Accra, and Ascension. The first is a foreign possession, and not to be purchased, therefore utterly out of the question. The second has dangerous anchorage; no harbour or place for breaking up ships, no territory for location, no market for goods, and no community of which liberated Africans could become a part. The third is a desert, the 150 persons now living there being victualled, as at sea, on salt provisions. Since 1839, at the latter end of which we were for the first time enabled really to attack the slave trade, the number of Africans liberated by the Mixed Commission Court has been extremely small; and this diminution may be regarded as a test of success, the grand object being to guard the coast and prevent the embarkation of slaves. In 1840 the number emancipated at Sierra Leone amounted to but 732, and in the first half of 1841 to but 291, and of these not one-sixth died between capture and emancipation. Sierra Leone is far preferable to any other place for the location of liberated Africans, there being already a large and prosperous community, comprising natives of every African race, who receive among them their newly-emancipated countrymen, and regard them with the utmost sympathy, assisting them in every way, and instructing them in the language and customs of the colony. It frequently happens that near relations are again united, and the transports of joy on such occasions well vindicate the African from the charge so often repeated. The marked inferiority of the liberated Africans who have been sent to the Gambia is owing to their small numbers, in a community having no sympathies with them, and from whom they are as much separated as from the white inhabitants; and I would ask whether intercourse with the Fantees of the Gold Coast would civilize or improve them to a greater extent?