Chapter V: Part 5

5162. Can you state what is the highest amount that you have heard of paid to a cruizer for the capture of a slaver?--I do not know any thing of the reward given in England; it does not come before us in any way whatever; that is an affair between the captor and the Government. But it is not the captor, strictly speaking, that is injured in this case; for the captor, as far as the court is concerned, has no interest whatever; the goods are not condemned as a prize to the captor, but as a prize to the British and foreign Governments, and the British Government may pay or withhold its moiety, if it pleases. It generally gives it to the captor, but it is in its power to pay any smaller sum. The captor has no claim, except upon the bounty of Government, with respect to the goods sold at auctions.

5163. But does it not come to this, that the remuneration paid to the captor depends upon the value of the cargo which he captures?--Where a captor has seized a cargo, it does; but cases vary very much; for instance, many vessels are seized quite empty, without any cargo; many vessels come over without any cargo, I should say the great proportion. Where a vessel is full of slaves, the interest of the captor is not affected, because the bulk of his remuneration depends upon the head-money he gets for the slaves.

5164. Can you account for this circumstance, that in a return made to Parliament, in the list of vessels that have been sold, it appears that the proceeds or effects of one vessel have amounted to 1,108_l._, and the charges on the sale have amounted to 585_l._ out of the 1,108_l._?--It seems very enormous, but I must know the circumstances of the case.

5165. This is the passage, “On the following cases of slave trade vessels sent in for adjudication to the commission courts of Sierra Leone by Captain Tucker of Her Majesty’s ship Wolverine, the charges here detailed were made: The San Antonia Victirioso, a Brazilian vessel, the proceeds and effects of that sale were 1,108_l._, and the charges on the sale were 585_l._”?--I cannot account for it; it did not happen in my time; I should know the name of the vessel if it had.

5166. _Chairman._] Can you, from your knowledge of the usual course of proceeding, explain the circumstances under which such a charge could have arisen?--No; I know what the expenses are likely to be, and I might account for a portion of it in that way.

5167. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Will you state the expenses in detail?--The expenses on Brazilian vessels were enormous, owing to the duty that was levied at Sierra Leone by the customs, on spirits and tobacco. The spirits and tobacco that are sent in Brazilian slave vessels are of a very inferior quality indeed, and the duty levied is very high; in many cases exceeding the value of the goods; so much so, that I took it upon myself a short time before I gave up my situation, to abandon the whole of several cargoes of spirits and tobacco to the custom-house, because the goods would not sell at the auction for the amount of the duty. I thought that the captors had great reason to complain; but subsequently to that, an Act was passed by the Governor in Council there, which was brought in by myself, to meet this exigency, and since that time I do not think that the captors have any reason to complain about the duty levied on those goods.

5168. _Chairman._] What was the nature of the Act you allude to?--It put on an _ad valorem_ duty instead of a fixed duty; the value of the articles alluded to was so small, that when you put a fixed duty upon them, a duty that was framed to meet tobacco and spirits from England, which were of a very different quality, they were hardly worth any thing beyond the duty; and I should suppose that was the principal cause of the heavy charges now referred to; but I know nothing of the case.

5169. Mr. _W. Patten_.] To take another case: the Palmira, a Spanish vessel was captured, the effects produced 1,824_l._, and 582_l._ were the charges?--That is not in my time.

5170. _Chairman._] Do you explain that by the same circumstance?--No; not knowing any thing of the circumstances of the case, I cannot explain it; the vessel may have been detained for several months at the desire of the captor; but I am quite sure that, with the exception of one or two items, and heavy items, of which the captors, I think, _had_ a right to complain, and over which the court had no control, the expenses were not unreasonably heavy.

5171. What other items had they reason to complain of besides the one you have mentioned, of the heavy duty upon the article?--With regard to translating documents. I pressed this evil very strongly upon the Government at home, and they have remedied that since. It was found that very great benefit arose to the court from translating all documents almost that were found on board detained slavers, because, in consequence of those translations, we were able to condemn many vessels which would have escaped if it had not been for the translation of papers found on board former vessels, which gave a full history of the transactions in which those vessels subsequently taken were engaged. The translations were made at a heavy expense, and were included in the captor’s expenses, and it could not be avoided; it fell very heavily, indeed, upon the captors; and I recommended that the translator should be adopted by the court, and paid in the same way as other officers of the court, and that his remuneration should be charged in the contingent expenses, which are borne equally by the British Government and the foreign Government, so as to relieve the captors altogether. The court felt a delicacy when they would have wished to have a translation of particular papers, in having it done, because the expense fell so very heavily upon the captors.

5172. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Doctor Madden recommends that “the captors should be allowed to furnish their own interpretation of the documents that require to be translated, subject to the approval and revision of the British Commissioners?”--That is impossible, you can never allow a man to interpret in his own cause. If you left it to the captor to decide upon what papers he would have translated, he would have none translated, if the condemnation of his vessel was secure without it; but now there is no inducement to captors to withhold papers, because the whole expense of the translation is at present borne by the Government.

5173. _Chairman._] In consequence of suggestions made to the Government here?--Yes; in consequence of suggestions made in 1839.

5174. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Doctor Madden also says, “in many cases more than half the prize-money that the captors had reason to expect is swallowed up in the charges made by the various officers at Sierra Leone employed in taking care, and ultimately disposing of the effects of the captured vessel.” Do you know what are the charges that would come under the other charge?--Yes.

5175. Can you distinguish those from the charges you have mentioned?--In the case of an empty Spanish vessel, it is not at all likely that the captor will receive much from the sale of the vessel or effects, because the vessel is cut up into a number of different parts, and those are sold for fire-wood in a country where fire-wood is tolerably plentiful; and, therefore, the expenses that are incurred previously to cutting up, will absorb any thing that can be derived from the old vessel cut up and sold as fire-wood. As far as the goods are concerned, the only charge, besides the duty, is the commission of the commissioner of appraisement and sale, which the captor would have to pay whoever sold the vessel, without having the security which he possesses now of having a good man, or the richest merchant in the place as the person answerable for the money, because in appointing the commissioner of appraisement and sale, the Court takes bond to a very large amount, that he shall account properly for the proceeds of the goods sold; he charges the ordinary commission, 5 per cent., and 2½ per cent. for expenses; and I believe that there is no other charge except the pay of the Kroomen, employed as labourers, and the marshal.

5176. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think Dr. Madden’s complaint upon the subject correct?--“The intervention of the whole present establishment of marshals, collectors, surveyors, interpreters, harbour-masters, agents, storekeepers, canoe-hirers, and victuallers of captured ships’ crews might be dispensed with.” I do not know what he means by “marshals;” we have only one marshal for the court. There is only one collector of customs, and with him we have nothing to do; he is the officer of the Crown, who collects the same duties from these vessels as he would do from any other vessels; we have no control over him; he is independent of the court; the surveyor is not employed by the court, but subsequently to the condemnation of the vessel, he is employed by the captor to survey, in order to enable him to make a claim according to the tonnage, through his agent in England; that is a question with which we have nothing to do. The interpreter is paid by the court; he gets 5_s._ for each examination, or something of that kind; he is a poor man; they could not get it cheaper done, and there is no hardship in that. The harbour-master charges exactly the same for a prize-vessel as he does for an English vessel; there is a regular fee, under an Act of the Governor and Council; we do not collect it. I do not know who are meant by “agents,” or “storekeepers,” or “canoe-hirers;” I do not know whom he refers to there.

5177. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You do not know of any charges connected with those departments that you have read over?--I know nothing about “agents” and “storekeepers.” There may be a charge where goods are kept, but I do not recollect a cargo ever having been kept, for it is landed and sold immediately; the auctioneer is obliged to sell it under the regulations within a certain time. There are canoes employed to land the cargo by the marshal and by “victuallers of captured ships’ crews.” I do not know whom he means.

5178. Is there any expense thrown upon captured vessels in case of slaves being brought on shore, for the maintenance of the slaves after they are put on shore?--I mentioned in the early part of my evidence that on their being landed they were handed over to the liberated African department, to be kept as slaves until adjudication. They are fed by the liberated African department at the ordinary rate at which the other liberated Africans in the yard are fed; and when the vessel is condemned, the liberated African department brings to the marshal his account for feeding them, at the same rate which is charged for other liberated Africans; I think it is 1½_d._ per head per day, or something of that kind; and there is a further charge, I think, of 4_d._ or 6_d._ per day in the hospital; those are expenses over which the court has no control.

5179. Is any of that charge made upon the share which goes to the captors?--Yes; it comes out of the proceeds of the vessel; they pay half, as it were; it goes in diminution of the moiety which goes to the British Government.

5180. Mr. _Evans_.] The captor has no claim upon that?--The captor has no claim upon it, except from the bounty of Government.

5181. _Chairman._] But the Government does generally hand over its moiety to the captor?--Yes.

5182. Then by whatever amount that moiety is diminished, the captor’s share is diminished?--Yes.

5183. Mr. _W. Patten_.] If any means could be discovered of doing away with those great expenses on the sale of captured vessels, do not you think that it would give great stimulus to cruizers on the coast?--I do not think they require a stimulus; but I do not think it is possible to diminish the charges materially in the shape of duties, which is the heavy item. In translating the papers, they have been already relieved, and also in a great measure from the duties; and I really do not think that there is any change that can materially diminish the expenses, so as to have the services properly performed.

5184. _Chairman._] Those are services which must be performed by somebody, which can hardly be performed at less expense than they are now performed, and if the expenses are to be defrayed, they must be defrayed by the Government or by the captors?--Yes: certainly.

5185. And the Government gets the moiety of the proceeds, but out of its bounty habitually makes over that portion to the captor?--Yes.

5186. You do not think it unfair that the bounty should be diminished by those expenses, not being extravagant expenses, in your opinion?--The bounty granted by Act of Parliament is not diminished. Cases do happen sometimes, as the case of the Passos, where the expenses exceed the proceeds, and in those cases the Government pays the difference, leaving the bounty perfectly free to the captor. None of the expenses go in diminution of the bounty given by Act of Parliament.

5187. But this is a sort of premium given beyond the bounty?--I suppose it was given to enable them to pay the expenses, but they get something beyond the expenses, and the bounty comes to them entire, not suffering any diminution from the general expenses, and the proceeds go in payment of the expenses.

5188. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Do they get the bounty in all cases?--Yes, in all cases captured under the treaties.

5189. If the vessel has no slaves on board, do they receive the bounty?--Then they get the bounty on the tonnage of the captured vessel.

5190. Mr. _Stuart Wortley_.] You have been speaking of cases in which there are slavers captured on board the prizes; in cases where there are no slavers captured on board the prizes, is there any charge made on the proceeds of the vessel on account of the crew?--The crew of a slaver brought into Sierra Leone never consists of more than three, therefore the expense cannot be very great; the adjudication generally takes place on the eighth day after arrival, and there is a regular sum which is given day by day in money to each man; as far as I recollect it, the captain and mate get 3_s._ a day, and the other man 2_s._

5191. Whatever the amount of that charge is, it is made against the proceeds of the vessel?--Yes.

5192. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you recollect sending a despatch home in December 1838, giving your opinion upon the state of the slave trade?--There is a despatch here upon the subject.

5193. Does that despatch refer to the subject of this country retiring from the contest which it has so long carried on?--Yes, I think it does, but I can find the passage.

5194. Can you state what the opinion was?--The opinion expressed was, that unless more effectual means were taken for the suppression of the traffic, that perhaps more harm than good was done by the exertions that we had made previously; but since that time a very great alteration has taken place; I expressed my opinion with regard to an increase of the force on the coast, and the occupation of British territory that belonged to us, where we were supplanted by the slave traders, at Bulama especially, and also as to the punishment of the crews engaged in the slave trade.

5195. Have any of those measures which you recommended been carried into effect?--The Portuguese have been driven from Bulama, and a much more effectual method of cruizing has been followed; very superior vessels have been employed.

5196. Have you now any doubt of the propriety of continuing our policy?--Certainly not: with regard to cruizing under the present system, I would propose increasing the force still, and employing a certain number of steam-vessels; indeed, there are several measures that I might propose. The occupation of Bulama was referred to; I think that would be an important measure; it was urged very strongly in that despatch to which I have been referred, and the commander of the Brisk, Captain Kellett, then for the first time visited the place, and drove the Portuguese slave traders from it, and carried away the slaves who were kept in the barracoons there. Another proposition was, sending home foreign crews, and perhaps I may be allowed to read the passage containing it:--“The only other suggestion which we shall at present offer is, the adoption of means to secure the punishment of persons implicated in slave trade adventures. As things are now managed, the confiscation of a slave vessel affects only the owner or the underwriters; and the parties who navigate the condemned vessel are constantly seen to embark again, on a second illegal voyage, a few days after the termination of the first. The complete personal impunity which attends the agents by whom illegal slave trade is carried on, combined with the high wages by which their services are secured, renders the slave trade, notwithstanding all its inconveniences, the most desirable employment for the Spanish and Portuguese sailor. On this subject we beg leave to refer your Lordship to Class A., 1824-1825, pages 142 and 143; and to Class A., 1836, pages 217 and 218. The plan which we now propose for adoption, with regard to slave vessels captured on this coast, and condemned at Sierra Leone, is applicable, with some modifications, to similar seizures in other parts of the world; but its effect may be tried here in the first instance. Both the Portuguese and Spanish treaties require that the captain, and a part, at least, of the crew, of a captured slave ship should be left on board; and this clause, whilst it sanctions the present almost invariable practice of sending up only the master, and one or two of the seamen, of a detained vessel, as witnesses before the mixed courts, and landing the remainder of the crew, as soon as possible, at the nearest or most convenient port, equally permits the detention of the whole of the crew, if it should be thought necessary, and we now beg leave to recommend the latter course, with a view to ulterior proceedings against all the guilty parties. The hulk already fixed at Sierra Leone may be used as a temporary receptacle for such prisoners; and one small steamer, or vessel of war, might be constantly employed in conveying the prisoners from this place to England, to obtain the orders of Her Majesty’s Government as to their delivery, at Lisbon (if Portuguese), or at Cadiz or some other port (if Spanish). Portugal and Spain are both bound by treaty, as well as by their own law, to punish their respective subjects, ‘who may participate in an illicit traffic in slaves,’ and ‘to assimilate, as much as possible, their legislation in this respect to that of Great Britain;’ and those powers will thus enjoy the opportunity of fulfilling their obligations. The punishment of the guilty persons might be strongly urged by the British ambassadors; but whether punished or not, we are persuaded that a more severe blow would be given by this proceeding to foreign slave trade than it has ever yet received. No less than 687 Spanish and Portuguese sailors were engaged in navigating the 30 vessels which came before us last year. All these men have long since returned to their former occupation; but had they been withdrawn, as we propose, from their old haunts and pursuits, carried to Europe far from their slave trading connexions, fined, imprisoned, and otherwise punished, and left to find their way back as best they could to Cuba and Brazil, the alarm which would have been thereby caused amongst the many thousands of seamen engaged in the same manner, would have done more to check and injure the illegal traffic than any means that have been adopted for the last twenty years.”

5197. Mr. _Forster_.] In the paper you have just read, the necessity of increased measures for the punishment of the crews of slave vessels is alluded to; you are not aware, probably, that it is in evidence before this Committee, that those crews, being landed on the coast at the nearest point to that at which the capture took place, not above one in ten of them escape death from destitution and want, in which case you would probably think the punishment sufficient?--I was not aware of the fact; but still I would have _that one_ sent home.

5198. _Chairman._] You would rather have the regular punishment of the sailors?--A total withdrawal of the men from the place where their slave trading occupation leads them, even if they are not punished in Portugal and Spain, would have a good effect; they would be withdrawn so completely from the line of their ordinary business, that the expense of their finding their way to the Havannah or the Brazils would deter them from engaging in such voyages, except at extravagantly high wages.

5199. Mr. _Aldam_.] Why could not they work their way back?--But they still would be losing the enormous wages that they would obtain on board a slave ship.

5200. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Do you happen to know the wages given on board the slave ships?--They vary a little; but the wages of a common sailor I have known to be 5_l._ a month. I should say a common seaman on board one of those vessels would obtain, taking the value which the slaves fetch, 7_l._ or 8_l._ a month on a successful voyage.

5201. Of course, those sailors undertake those voyages, and obtain that enormous remuneration on account of the danger they run to life and limb, from coming into the hands of our cruizers?--Yes; English sailors would, until lately, have been hung if we caught them on board a slave vessel, and, therefore, we see no English sailors in that trade; but you would have men of all nations volunteer into it, if it were not for the danger they ran.

5202. There is nothing in the trade itself, except the danger that they run from our cruizers, which would lead to such enormous wages?--Nothing whatever; they may be exposed to very great inconveniences, and if you increase the inconveniences in the way I proposed, the wages would double, probably; the rate of wages depends upon the danger and inconvenience.

5203. Do you think that all the parties usually engaged in the slave trade are perfectly aware that they run the risk of being put on shore in case of capture, and of having to undergo great peril of their lives before they can return to their homes?--It is known in all the slaving ports; it has been the universal practice ever since the cruizers were on the station to land the crews; indeed it cannot be otherwise with the small vessels that we have on the coast. To venture to take fifty or sixty scoundrels like the crews of those vessels, on board such a ship, would be madness.

5204. Have you had your attention called to the very great hardship which some of those crews have sustained when put on shore?--It has not come before me in any way whatever; I have no knowledge of it at all; I attended this Committee some time ago, and I heard of one case, where it was mentioned that they were starved, but that is the only case I have heard of.

5205. Can you suggest any alteration by which they could be put on shore and subjected to very great personal inconvenience, without the dreadful loss of life that we have heard of?--I think they were as badly off when they were landed at Prince’s, which is a Portuguese settlement, as they are at any other place.

5206. Would it increase the expenses very materially, or be a very material inconvenience, to fix upon certain points of the coast at which the crews could be landed before the vessels were sent to Sierra Leone for judgment?--I do not think it could be done; it would take the cruizer out of his ground, and would inconvenience him greatly; the object is to keep the vessel efficient for the cruize, and keep him on the ground; an empty vessel might run out, in order to be taken, while the full slaver got away.

5207. If the regulation were adopted, that a cruizer taking a slaver in certain districts, which should be detained, should be obliged to land the crew at particular places; would that be practicable?--I do not think it is possible.

5208. Mr. _Forster_.] Independently of the feeling of humanity towards the crews themselves, do you not think that the example of such treatment must have a very bad effect in the eyes of the natives of the coast of Africa, as showing them an example of inhumanity on the part of those who profess to be acting solely in that way from motives of humanity?--I have never known a cruizer act inhumanly; I heard of one case the other day, where they were starved, but it was stated in that case that it was owing to the refusal of the Portuguese factories to support them.

5209. Mr. _Stuart Wortley_.] In the paper you have read, it was stated that there were 687 sailors engaged in navigating 30 slave vessels; a short time since you stated that with respect to ships condemned at Sierra Leone, there were seldom more than three or four connected with the navigation of a vessel; will you reconcile those two statements?--They only leave those three or four on board; they land all but those who are required as witnesses at Sierra Leone.

5210. There are no individuals belonging to the slave crew retained on board?--None, but those who are required as witnesses.

5211. Then those individuals of whom you spoke, as being charges against the vessel, were individuals retained as witnesses?--Yes.

5212. _Chairman._] Do you think that the price paid to the Spanish or Portuguese Governments, as the case might be, would suffice for the maintenance of the crews of those vessels?--Yes, it would be only rationing them for the voyage across.

5213. And paying for their passage?--Now we pay continually out of the foreign moiety for the passage; at least the commissariat does.

5214. That is for the captain and mate; but here you are supposing several hundred instead of 20 or 30?--The rationing of the commissariat commences the moment we cease to have any thing to do with the vessel; the day the vessel is condemned, there is given to the commissary a list of the men who will come upon him for rations, and as long as they remain in the colony they will come upon him daily; when a number of vessels have been captured, and at one time we had 37 vessels lying in the harbour at the same time, they would cause a great drain upon the provisions, which are sent out only to meet ordinary contingencies; in that case the commissary went to the expense of hiring vessels to send those men away, and charged those expenses, in the same way as he would have done the rations, against the share of the foreign government.

5215. If you brought the crew to Sierra Leone you would increase the expense of maintenance very considerably?--Yes.

5216. You still consider that the moiety given to the foreign government would cover such expenses?--Yes, if vessels continued to be taken as they have been in the last few years, they would do so certainly. The only case in which I should conceive that the expense would exceed the moiety, is where very few vessels are condemned, and where you would have to run across with a very few passengers.

5217. This could be done by the existing treaty, without the necessity for any fresh negotiation?--Yes.

5218. Captain _Fitzroy_.] What becomes of the remainder of that moiety which goes to the foreign government, the part which is not used in paying for the maintenance of those men?--I believe there are always accounts going on between the governments at home, and it is used in England in some way that I am not aware of; the Treasury disposes of it either by paying it over to the agent of the foreign government here, or in some other way.

5219. Is the foreign moiety paid to our Government?--The whole of it is paid to the commissary at Sierra Leone; he has accounts with the Treasury; there are regular accounts which are made up as between the British Government and the foreign government, showing the exact sum that is due by the English Government to the foreign Government for their moiety.

5220. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Looking to the general nature of the vessels that are sold at Sierra Leone, do you think that they would bring by auction as large a price if sold in the West Indies, as they would sold at Sierra Leone?--Yes, I think they would.

5221. Do you think they would bring a larger price?--There have been vessels sold at the West Indies, but there was not any material difference in price; it would depend a good deal upon the island to which they went; in some islands there might be no great demand.

5222. _Chairman._] There is a good deal of small traffic, is there not, along the coasts of the West India islands?--Yes; I should think the chances are, that the prices vessels would fetch in the West Indies would be higher than at Sierra Leone.

5223. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Suppose the station was established at the West Indies, would there not be the security that they would be sold without being made use of again for the slave trade?--There might be. I have strongly recommended that vessels should be sent to the West Indies, when they have cargoes on board; that the slaves should be landed in the West Indies, and the vessels, of course, might be sold there when sent over.

5224. _Chairman._] You would bring them to Sierra Leone for adjudication?--Yes; there could not be a mixed commission established under the present system in the West Indies; because the treaty requires that there shall be one mixed commission on the coast of Africa, and another in the West Indies, and we have one there already at Havannah.

5225. You would think it a very material advantage, looking to the slave trade, if those sales could take place at the West Indies instead of on the coast of Africa?--No; the advantage that I was alluding to, is an advantage for the supply of labour in the West Indies, but not with regard to the supply of vessels, because the vessel might soon run across the Atlantic, and get into the hands of the slavers, as at present.

5226. If a person wished to obtain those vessels bought in the West Indies, for the encouragement of the slave trade, he would buy them at a great disadvantage as compared with the price which he now pays at Sierra Leone?--Yes; but notwithstanding the higher price in the West Indies, it is not likely to be such a price that the owner would not be able to get much more from the slave dealers than anybody else.

5227. If the sales of the prize vessels and the prize goods were made in the West Indies rather than at Sierra Leone, would they be less serviceable in the encouraging the slave trade?--Those particular goods would.

5228. Would the absence of that mode of supply be in any way an obstruction to the slave trader?--Certainly not.

5229. Are they got at those prize sales at a cheaper rate than they are directly from the merchants?--The price goods obtained at public auctions is much lower than you would buy them for in one of the shops.

5230. Then by so far as the prize sales in Sierra Leone do furnish a cheaper article to the slaver than the regular sale would do, so far they are an assistance to his trade?--The cheapness of goods sold at Sierra Leone is useful to all trades as well as to that.

5231. But if those sales did not take place at Sierra Leone, they would not be supplied so cheaply as they are?--It is a very small portion of assistance they receive; but so far as it goes it is an assistance.

5232. A vessel sold at Sierra Leone, is more easily convertible to the purposes of the slave trade, than if it were sold in the West Indies?--More easily, but not much more so, because the vessel might be run across at once.

5233. Is there not more demand for vessels in the West Indies than at Sierra Leone?--Certainly, and therefore the price would be higher.

5234. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is there not also an advantage in having men disposable, ready to man those ships when purchased?--Yes.

5235. Mr. _Forster_.] Are not the cases very few in which they would man the vessels at once again?--I have known cases of that kind.

5236. But are not the cases comparatively rare?--Yes.

5237. _Chairman._] Who generally are purchasers of prize vessels?--The greater portion are purchased on speculation; the number sold now is not at all, in proportion to the number taken, what it was before the Spanish treaty, under which most of the vessels are condemned, require that the vessels should be cut up, but some are bought on speculation, and come into the fruit trade, and others go into the Mediterranean trade; others are bought by slavers.

5238. Mr. _Evans_.] Do you know any thing of the slave ship Almirante, for which vessel the sum of 600_l._ was offered by an officer of Government, to be used as a tender, which offer was not accepted, and the vessel was sold at 1,500_l._, and immediately went down to the Bonny and took away 600 slaves from that port?--The Almirante was captured before my time at Sierra Leone, but I think it is very likely, because such things were taking place continually.

5239. Mr. _W. Patten_.] When you were at Sierra Leone, you have stated in your evidence already, that the liberated Africans were carrying on the trade with much greater advantage than the white merchants, in consequence of the price at which they obtained goods at public auctions?--Not entirely in consequence of that, but that has been one great means to assist them. For many years past, before those prize goods were sold at Sierra Leone, the liberated Africans had gradually been working themselves into notoriety; most of them are very much addicted to trading, and the persons whom they have supplanted are a lazy, indolent, worthless set, who cannot compete with them at all, and having completely driven out of the market the Maroons and settlers, they are now gradually driving out the white merchants.

5240. There is then this additional disadvantage in those auctions at Sierra Leone, that they are destroying the trade of the white merchants of the place, by the other merchants being able to purchase goods at a price which is not remunerating to the British merchant?--I consider it a great advantage.

5241. Is it not a great disadvantage in one respect, that it is discouraging the trade between England and the coast of Africa at that particular point?--No, I think quite the reverse; the supply of goods will be the same whoever are the receivers, and the extent of our export to Sierra Leone will not be diminished by altering the colour of the merchants there.

5242. But if it should be desirable to establish a general trade with that part of the coast in a legitimate way, does not the sale of goods at those public auctions, at materially reduced prices, offer a great impediment to English merchants conducting trade upon that part of the coast?--I think its first effect might be that; but its ultimate effect, I think, would be far different. I think the great point is to encourage the use of such articles, and to increase the desire for them; and the British goods will always, in competition, beat out the foreign goods from the market.

5243. Has it not pretty much the same effect there that a very large sale, under a bankruptcy in England, has upon the trade in this country?--I think not, to the same degree there; because what you require there, in order to create a demand for goods of good quality is, to allow the people to have the use of something superior to what they would have without those sales.

5244. _Chairman._] But the goods sold at those prize sales are articles of an inferior kind, are they not?--The goods that are sold there are very much the same as those that are used by the natives in their own trade, and probably many of them are British manufacture.

5245. You think that it is an advantage to the trade ultimately, that those forced sales, at unnaturally low prices, should be made within the colony, producing a taste which will be gratified by a more regular trade?--Yes.

5246. Though they may interfere with the regular trade in the colony?--That is only for a time.

5247. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are the goods English goods?--The principal part of them are.

5248. _Chairman._] Those forced sales have had a very injurious effect upon the regular trade of the place, have they not?--Yes, upon the shops; at the same time they have raised into wealth, and brought forward still more prominently than before, the liberated African hawkers.

5249. Have they created a class of native traders who have extended commerce inland further than British trade by itself, in its natural course, would have done?--Yes, certainly; the trade between Sierra Leone and the Sherboro’, and the rivers in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone, has been very much more brisk in the large canoes that are employed by the liberated African traders, since goods have come in so cheaply.

5250. Therefore you think, incidentally to the regular trade, advantage has been given by these forced sales, which have created tastes which would not have existed under other circumstances?--Yes.

5251. Mr. _Forster_.] The brisk trade which you have spoken of between Sherboro’ and Sierra Leone would be with those goods; a trade chiefly with the slave dealers in that quarter?--All are slave dealers, if they can be, beyond British jurisdiction; but what the Sierra Leone traders receive in exchange for goods are rice, and other articles of produce, which are consumed in the colony; for though rice is the principal food of all who can afford to pay for it, there is no rice raised in the colony; and therefore a trade of some kind is required to be carried on, in order to procure the means of subsistence.

5252. _Chairman._] The colony has not the means of supporting itself?--No.

5253. Mr. _Forster_.] Though those goods may be sold to slave dealers in those districts, you think that it is a legitimate and desirable trade for the English merchant?--Yes.

5254. Mr. _Evans_.] Have you not stated that the black merchants at Sierra Leone have more capital than the English?--There are hardly any English merchants; there are agents of English houses. The black merchants have twice as much capital as the resident English agents, but there is one merchant, Mr. William Cole, who is carrying on business on his own account, and he went into the market, he did not hold back and oppose the thing, as was done by the other English traders, but he entered into competition with the black traders, and made a good deal of money by it.

5255. In Sierra Leone merchants who had capital to employ would have considerable advantage over the agents or merchants who had not the money to lay down?--Yes.

5256. Mr. _Forster_.] Was not the want of money you have alluded to on the part of the English merchants, mainly owing to having their stores filled with English merchandize, which was rendered completely unsaleable by the quantity of prize goods thrown into the market in the way you have mentioned?--I think not, because Mr. Cole was in just the same circumstances; he had the largest store in the town; but he had more money than the others; he had money in his pocket instead of being in debt in England, and instead of sending home money as others were obliged to do to pay their accounts in England, he reserved his money to purchase cheap goods in the colony.

5257. Had he a large stock?--Yes, he had; but he took advantage of the circumstances that occurred, and made his profit by them.

5258. Would it answer the purpose of the trader at Sierra Leone to keep a large quantity of goods and money on his hands?--If Mr. Cole had known of those prize goods coming in such large quantities he would not have purchased goods from England, but he happened to have those goods in store as the other merchants had, and he happened to have money also, and he took advantage of the prize goods coming in, but there were very few merchants in that position.

_Martis, 14º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Viscount Courtenay.
Mr. Denison.
Mr. W. Evans.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Milnes.
Mr. W. Patten.

LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, IN THE CHAIR.

_Henry William Macaulay_, Esq. called in, and further examined.

5261. _Chairman._] Do you wish to make some remarks upon Dr. Madden’s Report, page 14?--I do. He states that liberated Africans at the prize sales at Sierra Leone “buy up the coppers, guns, and ship’s stores of vessels for the British agents of the slave traders of the Sherboro’ and Gallinas residing at Freetown, and thus they acquire a taste for this illegal traffic.” Now he might have known, if he had made any inquiry at Sierra Leone, that coppers are never sold at public auction, or any kind of equipment for the slave trade. The subject is referred to by Colonel Doherty in his reply to Dr. Madden’s Report. He gives a positive contradiction to that statement, and I can confirm the contradiction.

5262. To what are the sales confined?--To the vessels and the goods found on board, and to the tackle, apparel, and furniture; that is the term used in the condemnation; but coppers, irons, and any other articles that may be used again in the slave trade are always brought up to the commission-office or warehouses. It is the interest of the Mixed Commissions to gain every single copper they can; for, when broken up, the coppers are sold, and supply funds from which the repairs of the boat used in the service of the Mixed Commission are paid; that is, the boat used to carry about the officers of the court in the harbour.

5263. Do you mean that the accommodation which the officers derive is dependent upon that?--No; but they are constantly afloat. During the time that a vessel is there the marshal is required to visit her three times a day.

5264. But is the accommodation dependent upon its being derived from this source?--No; whenever that copper fund is insufficient, the repairs of the boat are paid out of the funds of which the foreign governments pay a portion; but the money derived from the sale of the coppers is appropriated to that purpose, and there is a regular account kept of the sale of those coppers that are broken up. There never was an instance of a copper being sold at public auction, or any equipment.

5265. Have you any reason to believe that this practice does lead to the encouragement of the slave trade?--I have none whatever.

5266. Have you reason to believe that any of the parties, either British or native, living at Freetown, are in any way sharers in the proceeds of slave transactions?--They may sell goods to the slave traders.

5267. Are they sharers in the proceeds of slave goods?--I believe not; I cannot say for certain, because we have a shifting population of Spaniards and Portuguese passing through the colony; but I should say no resident whatever shares in such proceeds. It is a thing which one cannot know, because of course such a transaction would be concealed if it existed.

5268. Are you not aware of any British agents of the slave traders; are you aware of the existence of agents of the Sherboro’ and of Gallinas residing in Freetown?--Yes, of persons purchasing vessels on account of slave traders, and I have no doubt purchasing goods also.

5269. What is the interest in the transaction which such persons have?--A commission, I presume.

5270. Mr. _Forster_.] In your former evidence, you have mentioned a merchant, of the name of Kidd, as acting as agent for the purchase of prize vessels on behalf of the slave traders at the Gallinas; in your opinion, was Mr. Kidd singular in that respect?--I do not recollect any other person employed in that way during my time.

5271. Is it within your knowledge that merchants, who were members of the Council of Government at Sierra Leone, have been engaged in similar transactions?--Never, to my knowledge; but I would also mention, as Mr. Kidd’s name has been spoken of, that, since the last meeting of the Committee, I have met with his name accidentally, in connexion with another transaction of the same kind, in the printed Parliamentary Papers, and therefore I may refer to it. It is the case of a vessel sold to a slave trader, a vessel called the Ligeira, which was captured a second time, and brought into Sierra Leone a very short time after she left the port; it appeared that in the meantime Mr. Kidd had carried her from the colony and sold her to a slave trader, and she was captured almost immediately afterwards. The case is reported at page 101 of Class (A.) of the Slave Trade Papers, for 1839-40.

5272. _Chairman._] Would it not be desirable, if possible, that all the vessels taken in the slave trade should be broken up?--Certainly, it would be the best thing that could possibly be done; and in those cases where it appeared to the court, during the latter part of the time that I administered the mixed courts there, that a vessel could have been condemned either as a Portuguese or a Spaniard, in all these cases we condemned her as a Spaniard, in order that she might be cut up after her condemnation; for the slave traders were seriously injured by being deprived of the means of getting off the coast and getting slaves again.

5273. Mr. _W. Patten._] In the case of the breaking up of a vessel, do the captors get any prize money?--Yes, they get a bounty on the tonnage of that vessel; she is measured by the surveyors before being broken up, in order to ascertain her tonnage by the new mode of measurement, and upon that measurement the captors are paid the bounty in England.

5274. It is immaterial to the captors whether the vessel is broken up or sold again, so far as their private interests are concerned?--Except that the vessel sells whole for much more than she does when she is broken up for fire-wood.

5275. Is the vessel valued only as fire-wood when broken up?--They get only a moiety of the proceeds of the broken parts, in the other case they get a moiety of a vessel fit for sea, with all the rigging perfect.

5276. You do not coincide with Dr. Madden, who recommends that a vessel when captured should be put into the possession of the capturing officer to be disposed of?--It would be quite impossible; the foreigners would very justly complain of us if we left the vessel in charge of the officer when once brought before the court. It appears by a paper, which I have seen this morning only, that already they complain of irons and other things, to condemn the vessel, being put on board after the arrival of the vessel at Sierra Leone. Now, if during the time the vessel was passing through the court, and during the time when the marshal now has charge of her, in order to prevent any thing of that kind happening, you left the vessel to the officer, who is interested in putting three or four shackles on board, which is quite sufficient to condemn the vessel, I think they would have just cause to complain.

5277. What Dr. Madden recommends is, that when the vessel has been condemned it should be put at the disposal of the commanding officer on the post, for the exclusive use of the service of the navy?--A small number of the vessels condemned might perhaps be beneficially made use of, and the new Act authorises the purchase of vessels when the commanding officer may think it right to purchase them; but having had that option, he of course only purchased such vessels as were required; we had 60 odd vessels in 1839 before the court; what would the navy have done with all those vessels?

5278. Mr. _Forster_.] Had many of those vessels cargoes on board?--Yes.

5279. _Chairman._] Should you think it would be advisable to sell the vessels under bond that they should not be employed in the slave trade for a certain period?--The law is now almost as stringent as any bond could be.

5280. In what way?--Dr. Madden seems to suppose that vessels may be fitted out in Sierra Leone, and may lie in British waters equipped for the slave trade; but any one at Sierra Leone would have told him that no vessel could possibly lie there equipped for the slave trade; the authorities are so particular, that even in many cases vessels were seized and brought before the court if they were supposed to have a few gallons too much water in them. There is an exceeding jealousy on the subject, as indeed appears by some of the papers which have been presented.

5281. Mr. _Forster_.] Before what court is a vessel, taken in British waters, equipped for the slave trade, brought; the Court of Admiralty or the Court of Mixed Commission?--If she is prosecuted under the Act of Parliament, she is prosecuted of course in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

5282. Is there not a rule on that subject, and are not all vessels taken in British waters on suspicion of being engaged in the slave trade prosecuted in the Admiralty Court?--No; it remains with the captor, if there is a treaty which will reach the vessel, to prosecute her under that treaty before the Mixed Commission Court, if she is a Spaniard or a Portuguese, or before the Admiralty Court, for a breach of the municipal law, because she violates both the treaty and the municipal law, and therefore he has the choice of the one court or the other.

5283. In your last evidence you spoke of a vessel captured of the name of Jack Wilding, at Accra, upon that ground; in which court was she prosecuted?--Before the Mixed Commission Court, but the captor had the option of prosecuting her before the Admiralty Court; the expenses are so much less in our court, and the proceedings so much more rapid, that he preferred bringing her before ours.

5284. Is not the evidence taken before the Mixed Commission Court transmitted to England?--Yes; and it is published by the Foreign Office.

5285. But the evidence in trials before the Vice-Admiralty Court is never made public?--It is not, and a very great disadvantage it is, for this reason: our ability to condemn many of the vessels that were condemned in 1839 depended very much upon evidence found on board vessels brought before the court; this evidence conclusively proved the employment in the slave trade of other vessels not then before us, which were afterwards captured. Now, all evidence of that kind, which might be made use of subsequently in the condemnation of other vessels, is completely shut up from the public or from general knowledge, by the proceedings before the Vice-Admiralty Court being never made public. In the Mixed Commission Court papers can be invoked by the proctor which have been filed in a particular case against another vessel that is subsequently prosecuted.

5286. _Chairman._] Is there no advantage in the secrecy of such papers?--None whatever.

5287. The proceedings before the Mixed Commission Court are public in themselves, and are published afterwards?--The examinations are not public, but strictly private in the first instance, but they are read in open court at the trial of the vessel, and they are sent home to the Foreign Office; an abstract of the evidence of every witness is given.

5288. The evidence taken before the Vice-Admiralty Court is not published in any way?--No.

5289. Is it communicated to the Mixed Commission?--No.