Chapter VII: Part 7

5439. _Chairman._] What proportion of the vessels that have been taken within your knowledge have been so broken up?--It is only since the Spanish treaty came into operation in 1836 that they have been broken up at all; since that time more than two-thirds of the vessels condemned have been broken up.

5440. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Would it be possible to fix the bond upon the vessel itself?--No; I do not think it would.

5441. _Chairman._] You have seen a good deal of the effects of British trade upon the coast of Africa, especially as connected with Sierra Leone?--I cannot say that I have seen very much, but I have seen something.

5442. You have seen that British manufactures are, to some extent at least, employed as instruments of barter for slaves?--Yes.

5443. Indirectly through Brazil and Cuba, and from England, goods are sold to persons who would use them in barter for slaves?--Yes.

5444. Therefore, to a certain extent, British trade gives facilities for the slave trade?--Yes.

5445. Do you conceive that it would be possible, with advantage to the cause of putting down the slave trade, to have any further restrictions upon British trade on the coast of Africa: do you believe that it would be advisable to prohibit absolutely dealing in lawful articles with slavers or with slave factories?--I consider it to be undesirable to impose any restrictions.

5446. Will you state your reasons?--I think that no restrictions whatever could be drawn up applying to any description of goods that might not materially interfere with the legitimate trade.

5447. And you believe that it would be a serious injury to the people of Africa, and to the cause of civilization in Africa, if lawful trade were interfered with and impeded?--I do; I would not have any restrictions whatever upon the commercial intercourse of our vessels, to which only of course our law would apply, with any port on the coast, whatever her character was with regard to slave trading.

5448. You conceive that although some additional facility to the slave trade may arise from the lawful traffic, on the balance much more good accrues?--I think so. I think there are positive advantages in gaining an entrance for our vessels to those ports where the slave trade is carried on: that information of the character of the people and of their mode of trade is obtained, and facilities offered to the squadron cruizing on the coast and visiting those rivers; and also that at any time, if, from the checks given to the slave trade by more stringent cruizing in that part, the natives should be desirous of turning their attention to lawful commerce, there are the means of doing it at once ready to their hands. It might happen anywhere that legitimate trade, from strict cruizing, would become a desirable one for the natives; but they would not have the means of carrying it on if British vessels were forbidden to enter those ports.

5449. Is it desirable that the natives should see a lawful trade offered to them by the parties and nations who are now connected with the unlawful traffic themselves?--I think it is.

5450. If you prohibited the access of English vessels and English trade to the suspected ports, should you be able under any existing treaties, or should you be likely to be able under any future treaties, to prohibit the access to those ports of foreign vessels engaged in the supply off lawful articles?--I do not think it could be done.

5451. Unless you could so prohibit the access of foreign vessels, you could not in any way prevent the supply of those articles which are requisite to be used in barter for slaves?--No.

5452. Then, on the whole, you would gain nothing in the way of interruption to the slave trade, and you would lose many advantages for the obstruction of the slave trade which you now possess by the free access of English vessels even to the suspected ports?--That is my opinion.

5453. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] May not the carrying on of legitimate commerce, even with slave-dealing natives, be used as a means of inducing them by negotiation to give up dealing in slaves?--It may be so, certainly.

5454. _Mr. Forster_.] How did this merchant at Sierra Leone come to be regarded with suspicion and mistrust who traded to the Gallinas, if, in your opinion, such trade is beneficial for the civilization of Africa, and the suppression of the slave trade?--I have not stated that exactly; I would not impose any restrictions by law on the entrance of any vessel, whether for lawful or unlawful purposes; but such freedom does not release the merchant who sells his goods, knowing that they will be employed for the slave trade, from the responsibility of doing so.

5455. You would prevent merchants and vessels frequenting such places as the Gallinas, if it was to be inferred that they could not go there and dispose of their goods without being subject to the charge of being aiders and abettors in the slave trade?--I think that it is very desirable that some regulations should be drawn up for the guidance of the men-of-war on the coast, with regard to vessels engaged in traffic; there appears to be a sort of impression now, that it is their duty to interfere with all vessels trading with slave-trading ports, and it is quite a misunderstanding on their part.

5456. Mr. _Aldam_.] If there is an establishment formed, where both the lawful and the unlawful traffic is carried on in goods, do you think it is desirable to prevent English vessels from trading to that establishment?--I think it is undesirable.

5457. _Chairman._] It is suggested in Dr. Madden’s Report, that there should be some further acts of treaty, with a view of developing the resources of the colony?--I quite agree with Dr. Madden in that. In the year 1836 I was before a Committee of the House of Commons, when my evidence went particularly to that point. I thought that the policy of the British Government in rejecting territory, when they had legally and properly acquired it, and confining themselves entirely to the peninsula of Sierra Leone, was very injurious.

5458. The peninsula of Sierra Leone does not afford adequate employment and resources?--I think the employment and resources are sufficient for the population at present, but the land is not so fertile as the land that we then possessed, and which the Government at home required the Government there to give up, and restore to the natives; also the destruction of our sovereignty and property in that country will not allow us to take cognizance of slave-dealing transactions occurring in that territory.

5459. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think it desirable to extend the limits of the colony at Sierra Leone?--I do.

5460. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in effecting that extension?--None whatever.

5461. Do you think that it would impose upon the British Government any great expense or responsibility to carry that out?--I do not think it would.

5462. _Chairman._] Would it be desirable for the trade of the colony, if possible, to extend the limits of it, so as to give to a larger portion of the produce of the soil the advantage of British growth in the English markets?--I do not think advantage would be derived in that way; because no produce that is now brought down to Sierra Leone, and passes through Sierra Leone to England, is considered as foreign produce, either teak wood, palm-oil, rice, or any thing else.

5463. Does teak, for instance, take its character from the port of Sierra Leone?--Yes.

5464. Is it landed there?--Teak that is embarked in the river Sierra Leone is put on board the vessel in British waters.

5465. Where?--At Banee Island Roads.

5466. What distance from Freetown is that?--About fifteen miles.

5467. Is it floated down so far, and then put on board at that place?--Yes.

5468. Have you considered the question of emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies?--I have.

5469. Will you state generally what opinion you have formed on it?--I have formed a very favourable opinion of it. On the 15th of February 1841, at the desire of Lord John Russell, I expressed my views fully upon this subject, in a communication which I then made to the Colonial Office; I stated the classes from whom emigration might be expected, and though this was before any scheme of emigration was carried into effect, nothing has occurred since which has at all altered my opinion; and indeed just what I then expected has happened. It was supposed that there was a considerable desire on the part of the inhabitants to emigrate; such a desire I stated did not exist; that a few liberated Africans had been anxious to go to the country from which they had been taken as slaves, to join their friends, and that many Maroons had been anxious to go back to the West Indies, from which they had been taken, and where they had friends; but that beyond that, there was no general desire for emigration; that if such desire was requisite, it would be necessary to create it. That there was no difficulty at any time thrown in the way of persons anxious to leave the colony by the Governor and Council there; that on the contrary, just before I left, an application had been made by a party of liberated Africans to the Governor asking him to send them back to Badagry, on the coast, and the Governor and Council replied, that they might go if they pleased; but that the Government would not be at any expense in sending them. A few did go and returned, and since that time emigration has been going on to a considerable extent to Badagry, and at present there are a large number of liberated Africans there, who are finding their way across to the Niger; and in a letter I received a few days ago from a gentleman at Sierra Leone, he mentions that liberated Africans are still going to Badagry, and that it is likely to become an important place. There were a few Maroons, before emigration was encouraged by any agents from the West Indies, who purchased a vessel at Sierra Leone and went over to Jamaica, and their arrival was mentioned by Sir Charles Metcalfe, in one of the despatches which was received before my letter was written. I recommended that two persons should be selected from each of the principal tribes of liberated Africans, and sent over to the West Indies to report upon the prospects that were held out to emigrants by the colonies there, and that their wives and families should be supported during their absence, and also themselves paid a certain monthly allowance until their return; and I have no doubt that if that plan had been followed, a very large emigration from Sierra Leone would have taken place, and I regret much that it was not done.

5470. Are there at Sierra Leone chiefs who exercise a considerable influence over the liberated Africans?--Every tribe of liberated Africans has some chief man who represents its interests on all occasions, and who, in case of any difference with the Governor or other persons, stands forward to represent it.

5471. Do they generally fall into location according to the tribes from which they come?--No, they are mixed in the villages; the Governor pays no attention to that; he locates successive importations of negroes according to the wants of the place, and the land which is to be given away, without reference to nation.

5472. But subsequently those belonging to the same tribe co-operate?--They keep very much to their own nation.

5473. So that there are in the colony of Sierra Leone persons who exercise an influence over different portions of the population, according to the tribe that they come from?--Yes; I recommended that two persons should be chosen from each of the principal tribes, and sent over. And it appears from evidence that I heard given here the other day, that it was the non-return of such persons from Trinidad which prevented any further importation into that colony. I may perhaps be allowed to read a part of the letter which I wrote to the Colonial Office: “Evils of a serious nature may be anticipated if the collection and embarkation of African emigrants be left in the hands of private speculators, or even of the salaried agents of the different West India colonies, some of whom, at least, would be more anxious to signalize their zeal and success by the number of passengers whom they might ship, than cautious and scrupulous as to the means by which they are procured. Persons like the Maroons and liberated Africans mentioned above, who purchase or hire their own vessel, and pay their own passage, may of course go where they please, without question or obstruction, and they are little likely to go wrong. But with regard to negroes from the western coast of Africa, for whom a free passage will be found to the West Indies, in order that they may help to supply the deficiency of labourers so seriously felt there at present, I beg respectfully to recommend that the shipment of all such emigrants be positively restricted to the British settlements on the coast; that it there take place only with the sanction of Government, under the direct control and superintendence of the British emigration agent, and in exact conformity with the regulations issued for the guidance of that officer, and that it be confined to negroes who have been resident not less than 12 months in a British colony. Beyond the limits of British jurisdiction there is no part of this coast, except Liberia and the Kroo country, where the West India agents could obtain emigrant labourers from any other class than either the domestic slaves or the slaves prepared for sale to the slave traders; and when it is considered that, from causes which I need not now stop to explain, the price of a slave at the Gallinas, the largest slave mart in Africa, and close to Sierra Leone, has latterly been only 10 dollars a head, the necessity of confining the shipment of emigrants to British territory will be sufficiently evident. I cannot understand the reasons set forth by the Commissioners of Emigration as the ground on which they recommend that the emigrants should have been resident upwards of a twelvemonth in the colonies previous to their embarkation.” The precaution is nevertheless highly important; it will prevent the possibility of slaves from the territories which surround our small colonies being brought into our settlements, by their masters, merely for the purpose of being offered as emigrants to the West India agents. A chief, or the representative of a chief, from the Bullom shore, or from the Timany country, may very well supply the West Indian agent at Sierra Leone with 40 or 50 emigrants, on receiving a bonus of 10 dollars for each. This would probably be looked upon as a bounty, well bestowed for the advantage of procuring so many labourers and as a small addition to the expenses attending their collection and transport; but the supposed bounty would actually be the price and purchase-money of so many slaves; the slaves would be presented to the Government superintendent as free emigrants, and the payment of their purchase-money would be an affair known only to the parties concerned in it. With regard to liberated Africans (as long as they continue to be located at Sierra Leone) and Kroomen, there would appear to be less necessity for requiring that they should have been resident for a year previous to embarkation; but I would still apply the same strict rule to all, making however a year’s service on board a British man-of-war (in the case of the Kroomen) equal to a year’s residence in a British colony. Such strictness in this case can hardly be regarded as needless scrupulosity. In dealing with this delicate question, I presume it will be desired not only to satisfy ourselves that we have taken every precaution for the prevention of abuse, and for the protection of the negro emigrants, but to preserve our proceedings from the possibility of exception, or even suspicion on the part of other powers; and cautiously to avoid every practice, however innocent in itself, which may be dexterously accepted as a sanction of abuses which we have been forward to censure and oppose. I may here refer to the long correspondence which took place between the Foreign Department and the Netherlands Government on the subject of the African recruits enlisted at Elmina for service in the Dutch East India possessions; and to the recent capture, by a British man-of-war, of a French vessel employed, under the sanction of her Government, in collecting negroes on the coast to form black troops in the French colonies on the coast of Africa and in the West Indies. In the first case it was evident that the bounty which was paid by the Dutch Government for each recruit, to the person who produced him, was actually the purchase-money of a slave, and our senior naval officer in the Bights very properly gave notice to the Governor of Elmina, that any vessel with such recruits on board, if fallen in with by our cruizers, would be captured and sent to Sierra Leone for condemnation; and if brought there I should certainly have condemned her; and in the second case, the collection of recruits for the French Government, owing to its being entrusted to private speculators and contractors, immediately degenerated into open and undeniable slave dealing. “In the papers which I have received, little reference is made to any other emigrants than agricultural labourers, which is of course the class chiefly, if not exclusively wanted; I allude to this circumstance, because there are some classes at Sierra Leone which would supply no agricultural labourers, but only mechanics, schoolmasters, traders, boatmen, &c. The population of Sierra Leone, which in round numbers I take to be about 60,000, consists of about 1,200 Nova Scotia settlers, 1,200 Maroons, 50,000 liberated Africans, 7,600 Kroomen and strangers: 60,000. The Nova Scotians, or settlers, as we generally term them, would yield no field labourers, nor do I think that you would obtain any from the Maroons, though a large number of the latter would be very glad to be re-conveyed to their friends and relations at Jamaica, free of expense; a fair supply of mechanics, &c., might however be obtained from both classes. Of the liberated Africans, none of the more prosperous would, in my opinion, be inclined to emigrate, and at any rate they would not add to the number of the field labourers in the colonies. The people to whom I refer are hawkers, traders, and mechanics, and are generally drawn together and settled in Freetown and its neighbourhood, where they live in comfort and even luxury. It is to the remaining portion of this valuable body that we must principally look for emigrants, if we are to obtain them at all at Sierra Leone; and, if prudence and caution be used, I see no reason to doubt that a large number of them (quite as many as it will be proper for the colonies where they are now located to lose) may eventually be induced to remove to the West Indies. I would beg to propose that the four or five principal tribes of liberated Africans should be called upon, by means of influential persons of those tribes resident in Freetown, to select each two men in whom they have confidence; and those eight or ten delegates should be furnished with a passage to the West Indies and back, free of expense, in order that they may examine and ascertain for themselves the prospect which emigration offers. They should be used well on the voyage, should receive 2_l._ a month during their short absence, and their wives and families should be supported (a very trifling expense) during the same period. Let this plan be adopted and properly carried out, and I have no doubt whatever that it will be completely successful. The Kroomen, amongst whom I include the Fishmen, are so peculiar a race that they must always be considered by themselves. Their national peculiarities are very remarkable, and distinguish them almost as much from every other African tribe as they do from the Europeans. But it will be only necessary to notice those which affect them as emigrants. In the midst of a slaving district, they are never enslaved, and they navigate and work on board the Spanish and Portuguese slavers with perfect confidence and safety. Every man-of-war on the station ships has a certain number of these people according to her rating, and there are never less than 400 of them embarked on board the different vessels of the squadron at any one time. All the timber vessels, and indeed almost all other vessels on the coast engage Kroomen to do the heavy work, which Europeans cannot attempt with safety in that climate. They are to be met with wherever work is to be had or wages are to be obtained; they labour with astonishing energy, cheerfulness, and perseverance; and they are distinguished by frugality and parsimony. At Sierra Leone we have a shifting Kroo population of several hundreds, who are employed by the merchant vessels, and at the factories up the rivers, and by the merchants and other residents in Freetown; and the superior value of their labour as compared with that of liberated Africans is proved by the fact, that whilst the wages of a Krooman are from 9_d._ to 1_s._ per day, those of a liberated African are only 4_d._ a day, and yet the former is preferred. As agricultural labourers the Kroomen have never yet been tried either at Sierra Leone or anywhere else that I am aware of, but there is no doubt that, with their industry and intelligence, they would easily and rapidly acquire the necessary practical skill. From this description it may be supposed that the Kroo country is likely to supply our most valuable emigrants for the West Indies; but two objections may be made by the Colonial Governments to receiving Kroomen at all: one is, that they will not permanently settle anywhere but in their own country; and the other is, that they never carry their countrywomen away from home with them. Sierra Leone is the great mart for Kroo labour, and has been much frequented by that people during the last 30 years, and yet a Kroo woman has never been seen amongst us. The Krooman who leaves his own country in search of employment, will always return home at the end of three or four years, with the goods, the produce of his labour, which he has collected during his absence; part of the property thus acquired he presents to the king or head man of the town or district to which he belongs, and with the remainder he builds a house, procures a wife, clears a farm, and supports himself for about a year or 18 months. His holiday being over, he leaves his house, farm, and property to be attended to by his wife and his relations, and absents himself from home for another term of three or four years, at the expiration of which time he again returns with the fruits of his exertion to make a new present to his chief, to obtain another wife, and to add to the dimensions of his farm. This process is repeated several times, until the wanderer has acquired what is by him considered competent wealth, when he settles in his own country for the remainder of his life. The Kroomen are too valuable a class of labourers to be lightly thrown out of the scheme of emigration. If means of transport are provided, their numbers in the West Indies may eventually be kept up to several thousands. In that case the requirement respecting women must be dispensed with in their favour, and they must be assured that at least one opportunity will be afforded to them during every year of returning to their own country; nor would the people object to pay a limited sum (say eight to ten dollars) for their passage, finding themselves in provisions, as they do with us. Should it be deemed advisable to secure the services of these people, I would beg to propose that the same plan should be pursued with respect to them as I have recommended in the case of the liberated Africans, and that two head Kroomen and two head Fishmen should be selected to accompany the other African delegates from Sierra Leone, enjoying all the advantages of free passage and monthly pay conceded to their fellow-passengers. The Kroomen, however, unlike their companions, would leave behind them in the colony no wives and families to be supported during their absence. In Liberia there are several thousands of black American emigrants, some of whom are very poorly off, and might be disposed to remove to the West Indies; but it would be matter for consideration, whether it would be advisable, for the sake of the small supply which could be thus obtained, to depart from the rule of confining the shipment of negro emigrants to the British settlements on the coast, more especially as the distance between Sierra Leone and Liberia is so short, that many of the disappointed colonists from the latter have lately established themselves at Freetown. But the number of emigrants which can be obtained from all these sources, indeed the number of free labourers on the western coast of Africa compared with the great demand for labour in Trinidad or Demerara is so insignificant, that I would earnestly recommend a plan for the location and settlement in the West Indies of all slaves hereafter embarked by decrees of the various courts of mixed commission and mixed courts of justice, established under treaties between Great Britain and foreign powers for the suppression of the slave trade. This, however, is a subject not embraced in the papers which have been submitted for my perusal.” Then follow the rules for the emigration agent.

[Adjourned till To-morrow, at One o’clock.

_Mercurii, 15º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland.
Viscount Courtenay.
Mr. Denison.
Mr. Evans.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Sir R. H. Inglis.
Mr. W. Patten.
Mr. G. Wood.
Mr. Wortley.

LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.

_Henry William Macaulay_, Esq., called in; and further examined.

5474. _Chairman._] Do you wish to correct any portion of your previous evidence?--I do. In reply to question 5176, in reference to Dr. Madden’s statement about the surveyors, I said, “The surveyor is not employed by the court, but subsequently to the condemnation of the vessel he is employed by the captor to survey, in order to enable him to make a claim, according to the tonnage, through his agent in England.” There are two classes of surveyors; the one referred to in this reply: the other, which I ought to have mentioned also, are the surveyors employed by the court to see to the equipment of the vessel, and this survey takes place before condemnation. I referred to the latter surveyors yesterday in my evidence; but I mentioned only the surveyor employed by the captor to measure the vessel for the tonnage in my former examination, and it would appear as though I had on the first occasion understated the officers of the court. We have two surveyors employed by the court in equipment cases, not in the case of vessels laden with slaves. There is another correction I wish to make: in the answer to question 5087, I stated that “It appears that it is a regular thing, sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta: if they come to England to him, he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah, and come again into the trade.” My answer was intended to describe only the course of that particular transaction, and not to apply to any other case.

5475. I observe in answer to 5087, to which you refer, you state that Zulueta “is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade, and any man ought to have been careful of being connected with such a person as that.” Will you state distinctly what charge it is you intended to make against Mr. Zulueta in those expressions?--Zulueta was known at Sierra Leone as the correspondent of the largest slave dealer on the coast, Pedro Blanco; all the bills which Pedro Blanco drew upon England were drawn upon Zulueta, and passed current in the colony of Sierra Leone with Pedro Blanco’s name on them, and Zulueta’s as the drawee. Zulueta was also subsequently found to be engaged in connexion with a slave vessel called the Gollupchik.

5476. Will you state who Pedro Blanco is?--He is a merchant who has now retired to the Havannah, but who was engaged for a long series of years in the Gallinas, as the principal person carrying on the slave trade there; his name occurs, for years together, in the case of very nearly every slave vessel captured off the Gallinas.

5477. Have you reason to know whether he was solely engaged in the slave trade?--His sole occupation was the slave trade.

5478. You think, therefore, that Zulueta’s known connexion with Pedro Blanco should have deterred any person who was unwilling to have aided or abetted the slave trade from having any transaction with him?--Certainly.

5479. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you aware that the house of Zulueta & Company is one of the first Spanish houses in this country, and perhaps in Spain?--I am aware that it is a very large house.

5480. You are consequently aware that it has commercial correspondence and transactions with most of the principal houses at Havannah and in the south of Spain?--I think it is very likely; I am not aware of it; but I know it to be a large mercantile house.

5481. That being the case, do you not think that bills might be drawn by Pedro Blanco on Messrs. Zulueta & Company without any direct correspondence between that house and Pedro Blanco himself, but accepted by order and on account of houses residing in Spain or in the Havannah?--It is quite impossible that Mr. Zulueta should have been ignorant of the only trade in which Pedro Blanco was engaged.

5482. But might not those bills be drawn without Messrs. Zulueta & Company having any direct account with Mr. Pedro Blanco?--Yes, it is possible.

5483. Then supposing a slave vessel were purchased at Sierra Leone and sent to this market for public sale, do you see any thing extraordinary in the party to whom the sale of that vessel is intrusted in London selling her to one of the first Spanish houses in this country?--If it was an Englishman who sold the vessel to the party to whom Mr. Zulueta sold her, I should think it very extraordinary indeed, because it was perfectly well known that Pedro Martinez, to whom she was sold, was a slave dealer.

5484. Then you think a London merchant who is intrusted with the sale of a vessel on the part of his correspondent in Africa, and whose duty it is to take that vessel to the best market, would be justified in refusing an offer for the vessel from Messrs. Zulueta & Company?--I think it would be his duty to do so, because the chances would be ten to one that she very soon afterwards would be employed in the slave trade.

5485. Then what justification, in your opinion, would that agent in London be able to make to his correspondent for refusing to sell the vessel to the highest bidder?--If the correspondent was an honest man, I think he would be perfectly well satisfied with the representation of his agent that the acceptance of such an offer would necessarily involve the introduction of the vessel immediately afterwards into the slave trade.

5486. But supposing the agent to act in that manner, would that prevent Messrs. Zulueta & Company buying the same vessel in a circuitous manner in this market?--No, it might not.

5487. _Chairman._] Have you any thing further to say with regard to the connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?--I would refer to his connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case, it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.

5488. But you would not object to a British vessel trading lawfully with a slave trade factory?--No.

5489. What is there then in this transaction which gives it a guilty character?--Mr. Zulueta’s former connexion with the Gallinas slave traders shows, that his course of trade with the Gallinas was one liable to exception.

5490. But what is there to prove that he dealt with the slave traders in other than lawful goods?--They would be _lawful_ goods, certainly.

5491. Do you consider it to be unlawful or improper to deal in lawful goods with a man who is engaged in the slave trade?--I do not consider it unlawful, but I do consider it improper; I say not unlawful, because you cannot prove guilty knowledge, but highly improper to sell goods to persons who, the seller must be aware, will employ them in the slave trade afterwards.

5492. Do you hold it to be against the purport of the Act to deal in lawful goods with persons engaged in the slave trade?--It is not against the purport of the Act for a merchant to deal with any one, unless he is aware that that person is engaged in the slave trade, and that the goods that he sells will be employed for slave trade purposes.

5493. Then that which is against the purport of the Act in your opinion, is to deal in goods, which goods will be used for unlawful purposes?--Yes.

5494. The mere trading in lawful goods, in itself you would not consider unlawful, or against the purport of the Act?--No.

5495. What evidence have we that Zulueta knew that in dealing with Pedro Blanco the goods he sold would be used for the barter of slaves?--Any body engaged in the Spanish trade would be aware that Pedro Blanco was the largest slave trader in the world.

5496. How would Messrs. Zulueta be paid for those lawful goods by Pedro Blanco?--I am not aware that he ever sold any goods to Pedro Blanco; the Gollupchik did not arrive off the Gallinas till after Pedro Blanco had left; he left I think in the latter part of 1838.

5497. It was a slave trade factory at the Gallinas with which Zulueta was dealing?--It was with the Gallinas.

5498. In the case of dealing with a person who had no other business than that of the slave trade, how would the payment be made?--In gold; in doubloons generally.

5499. There would be no payment in produce?--No; and that is the way in which all trade of that description is paid; there have been vessels going down from Sierra Leone and trading with the Gallinas and other slave ports, and the returns which they bring for their goods are doubloons.

5500. And you would infer from the circumstance of bringing doubloons, and not the produce of the country, that there was at least strong suspicion that it was an unlawful traffic?--A strong suspicion; I would not say more than that.

5501. Mr. _Forster_.] Suppose Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to receive an order from their correspondent at Havannah to supply a cargo of British merchandise to Pedro Blanco at the Gallinas, and these goods are shipped and are regularly cleared at the custom-house in England, do you consider that an illegal shipment?--The illegality depends upon the guilty knowledge. I consider it an improper transaction, because he must know the character of the person to whom he sends the goods.

5502. Do you think that Messrs. Zulueta & Co. would have been justified as merchants in refusing to obey the instructions of their foreign correspondent in a case of that kind?--I think that a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light would have considered it improper to be so engaged.

5503. How could Messrs. Zulueta consider that illegal which was publicly allowed to be done by the custom-house authorities in this country?--The criminality depends upon the guilty knowledge, as to which the custom-house cannot decide.

5504. Then it is upon those grounds that you designate Messrs. Zulueta & Co. as connected with the slave trade?--Upon the grounds that I have stated altogether.

5505. _Chairman._] Do you consider a merchant trading with King Peppel, a notorious slave trader in the Bonny, and receiving the produce of the country in exchange, to be acting against the purport of the Act of Parliament?--No, certainly not; because there there is a legitimate trade carried on alongside of the slave trade.

5506. Then you do not look merely at the person dealt with, but at the object for which the traffic is carried on?--Just so: I would designate as improper any trade carried on by a person who knew that the goods he sold would be employed in the slave trade.

5507. Mr. _Forster_.] If you consider it lawful for a British merchant to sell goods to so notorious a slave dealer as King Peppel, on what ground do you consider it illegal for Messrs. Zulueta & Company to ship a cargo of goods to Pedro Blanco or to Gallinas?--In the one case the trader receives his return in produce, and in the other case he sells goods which he knows will be employed in the slave trade, and for which he receives a return in money.

5508. How do you know that he is paid in money?--I do not know that Zulueta ever shipped goods to Pedro Blanco.

5509. Would you consider it legal if he did?--I think I have answered that question before, that the illegality depends upon the guilty knowledge of the party concerned, and that is a question for a jury to decide, if he is put upon his trial.

5510. Then that depends upon your construction of the Act of the 5th of George the Fourth?--Yes; no one can read the Act without understanding its purport.

5511. And you think the same principle applies in the case of slave vessels?--Yes.

5512. Mr. _Wortley_.] You stated just now that you were not aware that Messrs. Zulueta ever shipped any goods to Pedro Blanco; did you not previously state that that was one of your reasons for believing Messrs. Zulueta to be connected with the slave trade?--No; the ground I stated was the bills which Pedro Blanco drew upon them, which bills were current all along the coast, and I have seen some of them at Sierra Leone; they were drawn by Pedro Blanco on Zulueta; the transactions which gave rise to those bills I do not know.

5513. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider the shipment of goods referred to in the case of the Gollupchik an illegal shipment?--It was after my time; but I presume that it was illegal, because the vessel appears to have been condemned.

5514. _Chairman._] The legality or illegality will depend upon circumstances, which are not before you?--Yes; all that I know of it is from this report. There is a gentleman here to-day who seized the vessel, Captain Hill; he will explain all the circumstances.

5515. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that any vessel laden in this country, and legally cleared at the custom-house for a slave factory on the coast of Africa, is seizable as being engaged in an illegal transaction?--She is seizable, but if the captor seizes her wrongfully, the person seized would have a claim for damages. She is certainly seizable by any man-of-war, but her condemnation would depend upon the fact whether or not the captor made out a case.

5516. _Chairman._] The mere fact of conveying goods to a slave factory would not be ground of condemnation, would it?--Certainly not.

5517. Mr. _Forster_.] Upon what ground can a vessel conveying a cargo of legal merchandise to the Gallinas be condemned?--On the ground of guilty knowledge, if it can be proved.

5518. Mr. _W. Patten_.] And that guilty knowledge would have to be left to the jury?--Yes.

5519. _Chairman._] You have been asked upon the case of the Almirante, in question 5238; can you in any way state what the transaction was, and are you able to give any explanation of it?--All I remember respecting that transaction is, that a merchant at Sierra Leone, of the name of Benjamin Campbell, on my arrival in Sierra Leone, in 1830, spoke to me about a sum of 500_l._, not 600_l._, that was due by him to Mr. Kenneth Macaulay, who was at that time dead--he died in 1829--for a vessel that Mr. Campbell had purchased from him. I did not know of that vessel having gone into the slave trade till it was mentioned just now.

5520. The sale was made by Mr. Kenneth Macauley to Mr. Campbell?--Yes.

5521. Mr. _Forster_.] Was not Mr. Campbell an agent of the house of Macaulay & Babington?--No, not at that time; he had been one of the clerks in the house, but many years previously; he had long ceased to have any connexion with the house, I suppose about five years. He was in business for himself at the time, and in rather a large way of business.

5522. Mr. _W. Patten_.] At Sierra Leone?--Yes.

5523. _Chairman._] You have spoken in your despatch, which you read at the last meeting of the Committee, of an extended scheme for promoting emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies; will you explain that more fully?--I would propose that the negroes should be sent to the West Indies after emancipation, in the same way as they have been of late years sent to the different colonies there from Havannah. Dr. Madden, who has made this Report, was the person appointed by Government, and specially sent out for the purpose of superintending the emigration of the emancipated negroes from Havannah to the different West India islands, and he would be able to give to the Committee all the details of the regulations which were adopted and sanctioned by the Government. I am not aware of the rules that were laid down for his guidance; but it appears in the slave trade papers of former years, during the time that the Duke of Wellington was Foreign Secretary, that he required a certain proportion to be observed between males and females, and also that negroes should be examined by a medical man, and no unhealthy ones sent; there were other regulations also by which he was bound; all the negroes that he could get he sent to Trinidad in the first instance, and I believe he sent some afterwards to Honduras and other places.

5524. Should you propose that they should remain a certain time in the colony before they were removed to the West Indies?--No, certainly not; I would have the removal take place immediately after emancipation. There is an emigration agent established at Sierra Leone, so that the whole machinery is ready at hand at once.

5525. How would you propose that the expense of transport across the Atlantic should be defrayed?--There would be no difficulty whatever about the expense, because the colonies to which they are sent would gladly pay any expenses of removal. The difficulty that the Government would experience would be, in distributing the negroes among the different colonies; but any West India colony would gladly pay the expense of removal of any number to their own shores.

5526. What is usually the expense incurred on account of each liberated African under the existing system at Sierra Leone?--The commissariat issues notice of tenders; when recruits are sent across from Sierra Leone to the West Indies, which they are continually to supply the West India regiments, it is open to any persons who have vessels unemployed to tender for their removal; and if the Government undertook to remove the negroes, I suppose it would be done in the same way.

5527. What is the expense now incurred for the maintenance of a liberated African at Sierra Leone?--He is maintained for six months; the allowance has been varied from 1_d._ to 2_d._ a day; but I believe now it is 1½_d._

5528. Are you aware of the expense of transporting them across the Atlantic?--I am not aware what has been charged; but whatever the expense was, the colony receiving the negroes would be very happy to pay it.

5529. You conceive that it would be a material advantage to the liberated Africans to be placed in a West India colony, rather than maintained for six months by Government, and afterwards thrown upon their own resources in Sierra Leone?--It would be an advantage in every way; an advantage first to the British Government in saving the expense of their maintenance; it would next be an advantage to the negroes, who are removed to a West India colony; and it would be a very great advantage to the colony of Sierra Leone, because, though it may be well able to support its present population, yet I think that further importations at any rate, unless the colony is extended, should be stopped. The advancement of the people who are now located there, is also considerably retarded, by having fresh importations of savages thrown amongst them from time to time, as they are, when slave ships are condemned.

5530. Is it possible to have a society of the extent of Sierra Leone otherwise than materially disturbed in all its moral and social relations by 4,000 or 5,000 uncultivated negroes from various quarters being thrown upon them at certain periods?--I think it is greatly injured by it.

5531. Is there any amount of capital in Sierra Leone ready to take up and give adequate employment to that influx of population?--No, not immediate employment; the people would themselves find employment to a certain extent, and I will not say how many more could be introduced safely so as to find employment; but all who are there can find employment, and can provide themselves with all the necessaries and conveniences of life if they choose.

5532. Are there the means, except in trade, of providing for more than the mere necessaries of life?--Agriculture is open to them to follow, if they have sufficient inducement.

5533. Is there sufficient opportunity afforded, from the state of agriculture in the colony, for raising more than is necessary for the sustenance and common maintenance of the labourer?--No, not at present; agriculture is not followed at all there for export; there are a few articles that are not worth mentioning that are raised, but there is no such system of agriculture for export followed that they could embark in agriculture at once.

5534. Then you conceive that both the social and moral condition of the negroes there would be improved, as they are now constituted, if they were placed in the West Indies instead of in Sierra Leone?--I think so; both for those who are left at Sierra Leone, and for those who are removed, it would be better.

5535. Do you think that it would be desirable to give the negro the option whether he would go to the West Indies or not?--Certainly not; it is never done now, and the Act of Parliament does not even contemplate such an option being given; the negro is taken to Sierra Leone, and located there, without his opinion or wishes being consulted, and in the same way he might be transported to the West Indies.

5536. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is it obligatory in some of the treaties to take them to Sierra Leone?--The new Spanish treaty requires that they shall be established in a territory of the country to which the cruizer that has made the capture belongs.

5537. _Chairman._] But must not the adjudication be on the coast of Africa?--Not necessarily; Spanish vessels may be condemned at Havannah; and in some cases when Portuguese vessels have been captured in the West Indies, the slaves have been sent to Jamaica, and various other islands in the West Indies; and when the vessel is sent over to Sierra Leone, she comes over to us without the slaves; the slaves having been landed in the first instance, so as to save them a second voyage across the Atlantic; but with regard to vessels seized in the West Indies, which are liable to condemnation under the Spanish treaty, the Havannah court would condemn them, and the slaves would then be sent as Dr. Madden has sent them, to one of our West India colonies.

5538. Do you conceive that foreign powers would entertain, or be justified in entertaining, any objection to such a distribution?--No, they would not entertain it, and I do not think that they would be justified in entertaining it; on the contrary, it was the case in former days that the vessels that were condemned by the court at Havannah had their slaves located in the island of Cuba; but the planters cried out against it very loudly; and it was at their suggestion and their request that we sent away the negroes to our own West India colonies.

5539. By the treaties it is arranged that the captured negroes should be planted within the colonies of the capturing party?--It is stipulated in the seventh Article of the Portuguese treaty and the old Spanish treaty: “As to the slaves, they shall receive from the mixed commission a certificate of emancipation, and shall be delivered over to the government on whose territory the commission which shall have so judged them shall be established to be employed as servants or free labourers.” The Act never contemplates any option whatever being exercised by the persons seized, because it allows of their being drafted into the army or navy, without any reference to their own will.

5540. Would the possible objection of foreign nations be stronger if we engaged in a system of colonial emigration from the coast of Africa, from other points than Sierra Leone?--I mentioned yesterday that we could not go beyond the limits of British jurisdiction in procuring emigrants, without appearing to give a sanction to those practices for which we have been complaining against other nations of late years, both the French and Dutch.

5541. In placing the emancipated slaves in islands where they would be engaged in cultivating sugar, you would be in fact compelling the slave trader to put down the slave trade itself in a great degree?--Yes; I think that a great advantage, causing our efforts for the suppression of the slave trade to operate in encouraging the cultivation of sugar in our own colonies.

5542. In as far as it went, it would cheapen the very produce, the dearness of which now constitutes the great inducement for carrying on the slave trade?--Yes; the best way of putting down the slave trade is our cultivating that produce in such a manner that it can compete with slave-grown produce; and every thing that we do in adding to the difficulty of carrying slaves across the Atlantic, adds to the price of labour and the price of sugar in the slave-growing colonies.

5543. Every thing that we do with a view to encourage the lawful produce, and to induce the negroes of Africa to get what they require in a lawful way, diminishes the temptation to carry on the slave trade, and co-operates with the cruizers in putting it down?--Certainly. There is a passage with respect to enlisting negroes who are condemned by the courts, without any reference to their own will; it occurs in the 22d clause of the Act of 5 Geo. 4, c. 112: “It shall be lawful for His Majesty, his heirs, and successors, and such officers, civil or military, as shall, by any general or special order of the King in Council, be from time to time appointed to receive, protect, and provide for such persons as shall be so condemned, either to enter and enlist the same, or any of them, into His Majesty’s land or sea service, as soldiers, seamen, or marines, or to bind the same or any of them, whether of full age or not, as apprentices, for any term not exceeding seven years, to such person or persons, in such place or places, and upon such terms and conditions, and subject to such regulations as to His Majesty shall seem meet, and as shall by any general or special Order of His Majesty in Council be in that behalf directed and appointed; and any indenture of apprenticeship duly made and executed by any person or persons to be for that purpose appointed by any such Order in Council, for any term not exceeding seven years, shall be of the same force and effect as if the party thereby bound as an apprentice had himself or herself when of full age, upon good consideration, duly executed the same.” It leaves no option whatever with the party bound.