Chapter M: HERZOG: No, Mr. President, on Page 4 of the French text—that is to

say, on the last page.

“The Führer cannot understand that, in the struggle for the
future of Europe, the country which has to bear the brunt of
this struggle is the one to suffer most from hunger; whereas in
France, in Holland, in Hungary, in the Ukraine, or anywhere
else, there is no talk of hunger. He desires that it should be
the reverse in the future. As regards the foreign workers living
in the Reich—with the exclusion of the Eastern Workers—little
by little their rations must be reduced and made to correspond
to their output. It is not admissible that lazy Dutchmen or
Italians should receive better rations than good Eastern
Workers. In principle the guiding rule of utmost output must
apply equally to feeding.”

[_Turning to the defendant._] I ask you what you meant when you stated that, “In principle the guiding rule of utmost output must apply equally to feeding?”

SAUCKEL: There was a standard ration in the Reich which was increased by additional rations based on output or performance. I fought for the principle that these additional rations, which the workers from the West were already largely receiving, should be granted to the workers from the East as well; and that where western workers—that is, Dutch and Belgian workers—did not keep up their output in the same way as the Eastern Workers, these additional rations should be cut down accordingly, but not the standard ration which applied to the German people as well.

M. HERZOG: You therefore consider that if the output of one worker is smaller than that of another, his food rations must be smaller. Is that what I am to understand?

SAUCKEL: No, it is not right to interpret it that way. I should like to explain the system again. In Germany each worker received his ration as fixed by the Reich Minister for Food. In addition to that there were special increases as a reward for increased output. At the beginning these additional rations were not granted to Russian workers, and it is these additional rations we are dealing with here; not with starving people, or cutting down their standard food rations—additional rations for increased output.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now.

[_A recess was taken._]

MARSHAL: If it pleases the Tribunal, the report is made that the Defendant Raeder is absent.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, do you anticipate being able to conclude your cross-examination before half past 4?

M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President, I think that I might even finish before that.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

M. HERZOG: Defendant Sauckel, I offered in evidence this morning Document Number F-810, which is an account of the conference which you held on 15 and 16 July 1944 at Wartburg with the heads of the regional labor offices. Do you remember?

SAUCKEL: Yes, I remember.

M. HERZOG: Do you remember whether during this conference the question was raised as to the discipline to be imposed upon the workers?

SAUCKEL: It is possible that during this conference—or conferences—this question was discussed. I cannot remember exactly; I did not participate in all the sessions.

M. HERZOG: Do you know Ministerialrat Dr. Sturm?

SAUCKEL: Ministerialrat Dr. Sturm is not personally known to me.

M. HERZOG: Do you remember the statements made at the conference of 15 and 16 July 1944 by Dr. Sturm?

SAUCKEL: I cannot remember any particular statements by Dr. Sturm.

M. HERZOG: I shall hand you once more the minutes of that meeting. It is Document Number F-810 which was presented this morning under Exhibit Number RF-1507. Will you please look at Page 25 of the German text. It is also Page 25 of the French version. There you see—I read the first line: “Sturm gave the following report from his sector on work discipline.”

I shall pass to the next page, where I read, “We are working with the Gestapo...”

THE PRESIDENT: Where is this?

M. HERZOG: Document F-810, Mr. President; it is a document which is marked...

THE PRESIDENT: I know it is 806, but I thought you told us that they followed on.

M. HERZOG: 810, Sir, 810.

THE PRESIDENT: I have got that.

M. HERZOG: Page 25.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.