Chapter M: HERZOG: With your permission, I will begin again

“Sturm gave the following report from his sector on work
discipline...”

And on the following page: “We are working with the Gestapo and the concentration camps, and we are certainly on the right track.”

Did you make any observations when that statement was made?

SAUCKEL: I did not hear that statement myself. He gave a specialized report on questions of labor legislation, as it says at the beginning. I am seeing the record for the first time in my life. There were several parallel meetings at the same time. I did not hear it myself, but it stands to reason that some sort of ruling regarding penalties had to be made, as is done in all labor legislation.

Perhaps I may read to you from the same document, the beginning:

“Measures regulating the employment of labor and wages are only
possible on the basis of a healthy working morale. Regulations
of a disciplinary and penal character for securing such morale
require unified handling, the details of which will be dealt
with at a subsequent meeting of experts on penal law.”

That is, of course, not one of my offices.

M. HERZOG: I asked you what you thought of Dr. Sturm’s statement.

SAUCKEL: May I read in connection with Dr. Sturm’s statement, at the end of the first page...

M. HERZOG: Will you please answer my question first? What do you think of this statement?

SAUCKEL: I have already answered.

M. HERZOG: Please answer my question. What do you think of this statement?

SAUCKEL: I did not know of this statement, as Sturm, I believe, came from some other department. I do not know whether he belonged to the Ministry of Labor itself, or to some other department; that I cannot say. I did not hear these statements...

THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Do you not see the light in front of you?

M. HERZOG: Do you not remember that an agreement was reached between you and the Chief of the Police and SS to hand over to the Gestapo those workers who were guilty of leaving their work?

SAUCKEL: Well, there had to be an authority in Germany which dealt with workers who left their places of work without being entitled to do so. It could not have been done by any authority other than the Police; there was no other way. In connection with this document I beg to be allowed to read some more from Page 1:

“Apart from that, the number of penalties imposed by the
authorities on German workers, such as reprimands, fines,
concentration camps, and legal penalties, was relatively
surprisingly small. In cases dealt with by the public prosecutor
the penalties inflicted amounted on an average to 0.1 to 0.2 for
every 1,000 workers.”

M. HERZOG: What has that to do with the question which I asked you about your relations with the Gestapo and the concentration camps?

SAUCKEL: But there was no other authority except the police who could make an arrest if it were necessary and legally justified by court rulings.

M. HERZOG: You admit, then, that it was with your agreement that the Gestapo proceeded to arrest workmen who had broken what you call their contract of work, and send them to concentration camps?

SAUCKEL: Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody which was prescribed. The penalties were decreed in accordance with certain regulations. I made no other agreement.