Chapter M: HERZOG: The Prosecution, Mr. President, does not wish to read any (13)

Furthermore, this signature is part of the quotation and it says, “The OKW supplies the following...” Then there is the quotation—and Keitel’s signature is a part of that—whereas the document itself is supposed to originate from the 4th Mountain Regiment, and there is no signature of the 4th Mountain Regiment. I really do not think there would be any sense in talking about the document until the original has been supplied. For instance, on Page 2 of the document there is the statement that this goes to the commanders of 6, 7, _et cetera_. They are not commanders, these company commanders. No German military person could have written this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Exner, the Tribunal adhere to the decision that this document may be used now. All the points which you are now raising and any other points which you may wish to raise upon the document will be open to you if you wish to move to have the cross-examination struck out at a later stage when the original had been produced.

DR. EXNER: I understand.

THE PRESIDENT: For the purposes of not wasting time, it is, the Tribunal think, more convenient to have the cross-examination now upon this document. We will leave it to you to move hereafter to strike the whole cross-examination out.

DR. EXNER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Now, Colonel Pokrovsky, here is the original Document USSR-132 which the defendant ought to have for the purpose of making any comments that he wishes to make.

COL. POKROVSKY: The instructions of the Tribunal will be carried out, My Lord. We shall submit the original document.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Have you acquainted yourself with the contents of the document?

JODL: It is an order of the 118th Infantry Division.

COL. POKROVSKY: You have no doubts at all about the authenticity of the document?

JODL: No, there is no doubt that it is an order of the 118th Infantry Division, but the connection between the 118th Infantry Division and myself is puzzling. But the order is genuine.

COL POKROVSKY: Perhaps you would like to admit now that this is not a question of stupidity but of villainy. Perhaps you would like to amplify your testimony in this sense?

JODL: I did not understand you.

THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, when you were asked about Paragraph 2 of Document USSR-132, you said that the whole document was not before you. Now you have the whole document.

JODL: I have it, yes. I have the entire document. The entire order from Kübler is perfectly in order in my opinion. Apparently the doubts which the Prosecutor has refer to Point 2, where it says, “Any man who has obviously fought against the German Armed Forces and has been captured is to be shot after interrogation.”

That, of course, does not refer to normal troops. That refers to the population. At least, that is how I see it. Paragraph 8 says, “Attitude towards the Population.”

That is also in order from the point of view of international law. It draws a distinction between the attitude towards a hostile population and the attitude towards a peaceful population.

COL. POKROVSKY: Is that all you wish to say?

JODL: Yes, but as I said, I do not understand the connection between Major General Kübler’s order and myself. I do not understand it.

COL. POKROVSKY: You confirm that the question of the treatment of the civilian population has been isolated to form an independent paragraph, Number 8? Is that correct? You have just referred to that.

JODL: Yes, Paragraph 8 mentions the treatment to be meted out to the civilian population.

COL. POKROVSKY: I am satisfied with your answer. Let us pass on to another group of questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute.

JODL: But I wished, with the permission of the Tribunal, to object...

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. Defendant, are you suggesting that there is anything in the order itself which indicated that the prisoners dealt with in Paragraph 2 are not, as you have put it, normal troops?

JODL: In that respect, the paragraph is not very clear; but the next document which the Prosecutor has submitted might give the proof regarding what other orders have been issued. However, I consider that it is out of the question that Kübler gave an order saying that Yugoslav troops captured in battle should be shot. That is quite impossible. And had he done so, then he would have done so against the orders of the High Command of the German Armed Forces. But how can I give my views on an order from Major General Kübler? It would be best to ask him, he is alive.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, your answer to my question, then, is in the negative, that there is nothing in the order itself which shows or indicates that the prisoners referred to in Paragraph 2 are not normal troops.

JODL: That cannot be concluded from the wording of that order.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps I ought to draw your attention to the words under “General Directives for the Conduct of Troops in Action.”

At any rate, that is your answer upon the whole document.

JODL: May I please have permission to look at the original again? I have only a copy here before me.

[_The document was submitted to the defendant._]

THE PRESIDENT: You now have the original document before you. Do you want to add anything to what you have said?

JODL: I just wanted to add—if you are dealing with this order of Major General Kübler—that it is not certain whether this order refers to any particular action, for example, the mopping up of guerrillas in a given territory who were not regarded as regular troops at that particular moment, but were regarded as a revolt of the population. That is feasible.

At any rate, I cannot answer these questions because I am not Major General Kübler.

THE PRESIDENT: Now you can pass on to 470.

JODL: May I ask the Tribunal for permission to make a correction in my objection to this document?

THE PRESIDENT: Which document are you speaking of?

JODL: Document USSR-470.

THE PRESIDENT: What do you want to say about it?

JODL: I previously described that document as nonsensical because, at the first moment, I regarded it as a German order. In the meantime I have ascertained that it is obviously a Croatian order, because it is addressed to three Ustashi battalions. In this Croatian order the Croatian commander of this mountain regiment tells his troops something which he had apparently received in the way of orders from the 4th German Mountain Division, regarding the treatment of prisoners. He, in turn, traces it back to an order from Keitel which, however, is misrepresented and which, if it were correct, would best be handed in to the counsel for Field Marshal Keitel, because it is the best example of the attitude toward the guerrillas in Yugoslavia in keeping with international law—that is, if it is correct. Therefore, it is not a German order; it is apparently a draft or a translation of a Croatian order of the 4th Mountain Regiment. But what the 4th Croatian Regiment has to do with the General or the Defendant Jodl is a puzzle to me. I do not understand it.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on, Colonel Pokrovsky.

COL. POKROVSKY: I ask you, Defendant Jodl, whether you knew of such a directive by Keitel to the effect that division commanders or officers of higher rank were entitled to issue orders that no prisoners should be taken. Do you know of such a directive?

JODL: No, it is not known to me; and it is not certain that the order was issued in that way. However, in certain cases it is permissible under international law.

COL. POKROVSKY: I have no further questions to ask in connection with this document. The defense counsel will obviously ask some questions when the original document is submitted to the Tribunal.

I shall now proceed to another group of questions. If I am not mistaken, you confirmed the authenticity of your so-called notes for “Plan Grün” where it dealt with the creation of an incident on the borders of Czechoslovakia. It is stated quite clearly there that the organization of this incident was to be entrusted to the counterintelligence. Have I interpreted the idea of your notes correctly?

JODL: No. The translation as it came over to me is completely distorted. But there has been a full discussion about that, too.

COL. POKROVSKY: To facilitate the task of the interpreters, I shall simplify the question. You, I believe, confirmed the authenticity of this document dealing with the incident and the organization of the incident. This is Defense Document Jodl-14.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think it has come through properly.

JODL: No. It did not make any sense to me at all.

COL. POKROVSKY: All right. I shall repeat it. Do I clearly understand that you do not contest the authenticity of Document Jodl-14?

JODL: If that is the letter from me to Major Schmundt, then that is an absolutely genuine document, which I wrote myself.

COL. POKROVSKY: In this connection I should like to ask you one precise question: Do you confirm that the provocation which you call the “organization of an incident” had two objectives: First, to give a pretext for an attack against Czechoslovakia; and secondly—to use your own terminology, which we heard here on 4 June—to shift the blame for the war on to somebody else’s shoulders? Had you these two objectives when you proposed to organize an incident? Do you understand my question?

JODL: I understood roughly what you said.

COL. POKROVSKY: Can you give an answer?

JODL: Yes, I can repeat the answer I gave yesterday. I have...

COL. POKROVSKY: You confirm this?

JODL: My testimony of yesterday? Yes, of course. I still maintain today something which I said yesterday.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. I would like you to tell the Tribunal everything you know about the supplying of weapons to the Sudeten Germans organized into the Henlein Corps, which you mentioned to the Tribunal in passing. You stated that this corps contained a certain number of officers. Do you remember?

JODL: Yes, I remember.

COL. POKROVSKY: In order to help you, I will show you a document.

[_The document was submitted to the defendant._]

It is the testimony of Karl Hermann Frank. He declares in this testimony that the Henlein Corps received a certain quantity of weapons. Do you know anything about this?

JODL: I only know of weapons supplied to the Henlein Free Corps at the time when it was being formed on German territory. Whether arms had been previously smuggled into Czechoslovakia for that Sudeten-German group, or how they were brought in, is something which I know nothing about. The Armed Forces were never in any way concerned with that, just as later on they were not concerned with the Henlein Free Corps.

COL. POKROVSKY: Do you know what kind of weapons were sent there? Were they of German origin or not?

JODL: The fact that arms were taken into Czechoslovakia is something I know absolutely nothing about. I was not a smuggler of arms; I was a General Staff officer.

COL. POKROVSKY: That is why I am asking you, since you have said that you received reports on the arming of the Henlein Free Corps when it arrived on German territory. That is why I asked you, an officer of the General Staff, were these weapons of German origin or not? You must know that.

JODL: Henlein’s Free Corps—which was formed near Hof, and in the district to the North, on 17 September—received, in my opinion, former Austrian, or even German, arms. I think they were Austrian weapons, but I do not know that for certain.

COL. POKROVSKY: Then it is not necessary. We only need definite information and definite facts. You will now be handed a photostatic copy of the Case Green folder.

[_The folder was submitted to the defendant._]

You will look at the passage which has been marked. The marked passage says, “For the success of the operation, the penetration into Sudeten Germany with parachute troops will be of great value.” The Defendant Keitel, on 6 April 1946, when questioned regarding this part of the document, said that it is precisely you who could give the requisite explanations with regard to this document.

JODL: With reference to this paragraph I have to say that, in the preparation for a possible war, the Army had a notation inserted to the effect that fortifications would have to be penetrated quickly or would have to be opened up from the rear and that for the success of this joint action the co-operation of airborne troops, together with the border population and the Sudeten Germans who deserted to us, might be of value. For, of course, it was a fact that among the Germans who had been drawn into the ranks and who numbered about 100,000, not one would have turned his weapon upon us but would have deserted on the spot. They wrote that to me personally while in Czech uniform. These Germans would have deserted on the spot. That, of course, we expected and had taken into account in our military calculations.

COL. POKROVSKY: I fear that you have not understood me quite correctly or that you did not wish to understand the question which I put to you.

Defendant Jodl, I am interested in something else. Do you confirm the fact that prior to the attack on Czechoslovakia you had planned diversionary activity on the territory of Czechoslovakia proper. That is what I am interested in. Yes or no?

JODL: First, there was no attack upon Czechoslovakia at all; that is a historical untruth. Second, this was General Staff work, which was prepared for a possible war; and there is nothing else to be said about that.

THE PRESIDENT: That is not an answer to the question. The question was whether you planned before the war—or the possible war—diversionary activity in Czechoslovakia. Did you plan that? Can you answer that?

JODL: No, I did not. You will have to ask Admiral Canaris about that. Such matters were not in my jurisdiction.

COL. POKROVSKY: Keitel advised us to ask you, and you advise us to question Canaris. Very well; I have another question to ask you. Was the unification of all pro-Fascist forces and armed Fascist bands in Yugoslavia, which fought against the Allies, carried out with your knowledge? Or do you know nothing about that?

JODL: You mean the military organization under Marshal Tito. That is known to me, yes.

COL. POKROVSKY: No, I am referring to the organization under the direction of the German High Command, of a united front of all pro-Fascist bands—of Nedish, Michailovič, and others—financed by Germany, helped by Germany, and under the leadership of the German High Command. Do you know anything about that, or do you not?

JODL: I do not know whether you have in mind the Chetniks. They were under Italian command. Because of this there was always a big row between us and the Italians. Then there was the Ustashi, they were Croatians. But the other pro-Fascist organizations are not known to me.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. You will look at Document J-95, Exhibit USSR-288. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal. It is the testimony of Nedish. Two or three sentences from this document have a direct bearing on the questions that I have asked you. Nedish testified under oath, naming those who had helped him to form and to finance his bands. He named the representatives of the German High Command and the Gestapo who helped him to create his armed forces.

Have you found that?

JODL: That is right. Nedish formed a Serbian unit. I forgot that before. Nedish had a—what shall I say—a Serbian...

COL. POKROVSKY: Do you remember it?

JODL: Yes. Nedish had a small unit. That is right. There were perhaps 5,000 to 6,000 men. They were Serbs.

COL. POKROVSKY: Did you give financial support to this organization?

JODL: No. I had no money. I did not back these things.

COL. POKROVSKY: No, I am not speaking of your personal means, but the means of the German Reich.

JODL: I cannot tell you that. I did not concern myself with money in this war.

COL. POKROVSKY: Was the German High Command at the head of the work of controlling the organization of these bands, or was it not?

JODL: No. I did not organize it. The Commander, Southeast, probably discussed that with Nedish. But it was Nedish’s own private affair if he wished to call on the Serbs to fight.

COL. POKROVSKY: I do not know whether it was his private business or not. But it is most important to me that you confirm the fact that these bands actually existed. How Nedish organized them does not interest me.

JODL: I can confirm that. There were about 5,000 to 6,000 men of the Serbian auxiliary police.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. You will be shown another report from this group of questions. It is an official report of the Polish Government sent to the Military Tribunal. You will find that it contains some very valuable information about the activities of the Fifth Column. Please turn to the sentence which is marked “B.” It is said there:

“In addition to the agents selected from among the young people
and appointed to co-operate with the German civilian population,
there also existed a group of leaders and instructors made up of
officers who had come to Poland, supplied with valid passports,
weeks before the outbreak of hostilities.”

Do you, as the direct leader of the counterintelligence—this section was subordinate to you—know anything about this Fifth Column organization in Poland?

JODL: There are two small errors you have made, Colonel Pokrovsky: first of all, counterintelligence was not under me but under the Chief of the High Command of the Armed Forces; and secondly, I stated at length yesterday that I know nothing about any of the preparations for the Polish campaign, either from the point of view of operations or otherwise, because I was Artillery Commander in Vienna and Brünn. What Canaris did at that time with respect to Poland is something I know absolutely nothing about. I am afraid, therefore, that I cannot be of any help.

COL. POKROVSKY: Well, let us proceed to the next group of questions. You were examined on 8 November by the Soviet Prosecution, and you were asked whether Germany was pursuing a predatory policy when attacking the Soviet Union? Do you remember being asked this question?

JODL: I remember very well, yes.

COL. POKROVSKY: You will now be handed a copy of your answer. You replied:

“I admit that the question of the expansion of Germany’s
‘Lebensraum’ and the utilization of Russian economy for
Germany’s needs did play a certain part, but it was not the
basic reason for the attack on the Soviet Union.”

Do you remember answering in this sense?

JODL: It is possible. I did not sign it. At any rate, I said it was not the chief cause.

COL. POKROVSKY: You also said in the same answer:

“It was never our intention to keep enlarging our ‘Lebensraum’
and thereby create new enemies.”

It appears that you do remember that?

JODL: Yes, I do.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. Perhaps you will now recall that the witness Ohlendorf testified before the Tribunal that prior to the outbreak of hostilities against the Soviet Union, Himmler, in his speech, had outlined a program for the annihilation, in the East, of 10,000,000 Slavs and Jews? Do you remember this statement?

JODL: I recollect having heard that testimony in this courtroom, yes.

COL. POKROVSKY: In the light of this—in the light of Ohlendorf’s testimony—would you not like to answer more precisely the question as to whether the war against the Soviet Union was waged with a predatory purpose, with the purpose of seizing territory, annihilating the population, and then of transforming the occupied territories, to quote Hitler’s own words, “into a paradise for the Germans”? Do you not think that is exactly what did happen?

JODL: What the Führer might have wanted to create later on I do not know; but the military and strategic reasons, which he gave us and which were definitely confirmed by the many reports received, I explained yesterday in great detail. The main reason was the feeling that we were under a dire threat of being attacked by Russia. That was the decisive point.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. You will now be handed Document C-57. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal, My Lord. On the evening of 5 April 1946 this document was put to Defendant Keitel as Exhibit USSR-336. I must ask you to turn to Subparagraph 4 of this document and to Subparagraph 7, for Defendant Keitel stated that you could give far more detailed explanations about these documents. Point 4 referred to the active participation of Spain in the seizure of Gibraltar as far back as 1941. Tell us, how was this active participation of Spain to be expressed? Have you found this passage in the document?

JODL: Yes, I already know the document. But nobody signed it. First of all, I have to give an explanation of what this document is, so that it is not mistaken for an order.

COL. POKROVSKY: But I do not believe I ever said that it was an order.

JODL: That is all right, because it is not an order. I cannot say what the people who drew up this document had in mind at the time. It was obviously a draft which the General Staff officers, presumably from my department, together with the operations expert of the Navy, prepared in my office and which they submitted to the Naval Operations Staff for their perusal, according to the principle that General Staff officers must think and plan a long time ahead. They had these personal ideas and put them down on paper without my ever having seen them.

THE PRESIDENT: What was your question, Colonel Pokrovsky? It was whether the draft did not...

COL. POKROVSKY: I asked a question to which I received no answer. My Lord, I asked him what he could say about the actual part which Spain was to play in the seizure of Gibraltar in 1941.

JODL: I cannot make a statement on what other people thought. I can only talk about serious intentions in connection with Spain in 1940. That I can talk about. But as far as this paper is concerned, I can say nothing about it. For at the time I had long ago dismissed the thing as impossible. I know of it only since I have been in Nuremberg; I never saw it before.

COL. POKROVSKY: Whether that plan could not be fulfilled is quite another question. Defendant Keitel said that you could give an explanation. You declare that you cannot say anything.

JODL: As I have just said, it is some preliminary work carried out by the younger General Staff officers, which I saw here in the document room for the first time with great interest and some amusement. It was not shown to me at the time, because it could already be seen that in a week’s time the situation would change.

COL. POKROVSKY: You know nothing about the proposed dispatch of an expeditionary corps to Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, through Trans-Caucasia in the direction of the Persian Gulf, if the Soviet Union had fallen, as is stated here; you did not know anything about that either?

JODL: It was never a really serious proposition. On the contrary, I had the biggest row of my life with the Führer because I refused to attack beyond the Caucasus in the direction of Baku. But the General Staff officers did entertain such ideas in the first flush of optimism because of the big victories in the summer. That is what they are there for—to have ideas. But the decisions are made by the older and more level-headed men.

COL. POKROVSKY: So you confirm that the success of the Red Army upset what you call “the bold and far-reaching plans” of Hitler to send an expeditionary corps to Syria and Egypt? Is that right?

JODL: If the Soviet Union had collapsed, then one might have entertained such ideas for continuing the war. But never the idea, for instance, of attacking Turkey. She would have come over to our side anyway voluntarily. That was the opinion of the Führer.

COL. POKROVSKY: How do you know that?

JODL: How do I know it? Even the document says so. And there are the entries in the Diaries of the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which are here in Court. It says:

“After big German victories, Turkey will come over to our side,
anyway. I order that she be given preferential treatment in the
supply of munitions and arms and tanks.”

In fact, Turkey had expressed such a wish, and she was very grateful to receive from us tanks equipped with arms. The Führer would never have done that if he had expected Turkey to join our opponents.

COL. POKROVSKY: We shall proceed to another group of questions. On the eve of the campaign against Russia, a conference was held between the representatives of the OKW, the OKH, and the so-called RSHA. The participation of the subdepartment SIPO was being considered. Do you know anything about this conference, at which the witness Ohlendorf was present?

JODL: I know nothing about that. I was working on quite different matters, and I have never had any conferences or connections with the Reich Security Main Office at all.

COL. POKROVSKY: Are you acquainted with Wilhelm Scheidt, a colleague in the Prisoners of War Organization of the OKW?

JODL: Yes, I know him. He was an assistant to General Scherff.

COL. POKROVSKY: Are you acquainted with his testimony which was given before the Tribunal? It is, My Lord, on Page 2207 of the English transcript (Volume IV, Page 467). He testifies that the criminal practice of inflicting punitive measures on the peaceful civilian population was known to the leading officers of the Armed Forces Operations Staff and of the General Staff of the Army. Do you remember that?

JODL: I do not know the words that he used. Criminal actions were neither known to the Armed Forces Operations Staff nor to me. I rejected criminal actions and fought against them, and I made that abundantly clear here.

COL. POKROVSKY: Am I to understand that you deny all knowledge of the criminal punitive measures taken against the civilian population? Do you mean to say you knew nothing about them?

JODL: Of course, I know of the fight against your partisans. That is quite clear. I have shown two instructions which were issued by the Armed Forces Operations Staff in this connection.

COL. POKROVSKY: On 7 January 1946, the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski testified that the real aim of this struggle against the partisans was the extermination of the Slavs and the Jews, and that the methods used in this struggle were known to the High Command. Do you wish to deny this, too?

JODL: It might have been the intention of Bach-Zelewski; it was not mine. My instructions were different. I already described the intention yesterday as completely senseless. The numbers of guerrillas made no difference at all in the gigantic struggle between the German and the Soviet Armies. It was a minute percentage.

COL. POKROVSKY: Could you perhaps recollect, Defendant Jodl, when and in what circumstances you yourself said, at one of Hitler’s conferences, that the German troops were entitled to treat the partisans as they wished and to subject them to any kind of death by torture, by quartering, hanging them head downward, _et cetera_. Do you remember having said something of the kind at that time?

JODL: About this matter—which is more comical than serious—we talked for quite some time during the preliminary interrogation.

COL. POKROVSKY: Perhaps you can tell us about this matter at less length but with greater precision. Will you answer my question whether you spoke these words or anything like these words, and in what circumstances did you say them?

JODL: I want to explain it briefly. It was on 1 December 1942. As the Tribunal will remember, a directive in regard to combating the guerrillas was issued on 11 November by the Armed Forces Operations Staff, which we declared to be outdated by the new issue on 6 May 1944. In that directive, which was issued on 11 November, I had written the sentence: “The burning down of villages as a reprisal is forbidden, because it necessarily only creates new partisans.”

The draft of that instruction remained in the Führer’s hands for weeks. He always objected that this instruction would hamper the troops in ruthlessly combating the guerrillas. As at that time I had already issued that instruction and he still had not given his approval, I became rather rude; and when he once more came with lengthy explanations of his fighting experience, his experience of fighting the Communists in Chemnitz, I said, in order to break the ice at last, “My Führer, what people do in battle does not come into this instruction at all. As far as I am concerned, they can quarter them or they can hang them upside down.”

If I had known that the Russian gentlemen have so little sense of irony, I would have added, “and roast them on the spit.” That is what I said and I added, “But in this instruction we are concerned with reprisals after the battle, and they must be prohibited.”

Then there were roars of laughter from all the officers present, and also from the Führer; and he gave me permission to issue that directive; and the testimony of a witness, General Buhle, who was present, will confirm that to you. That quartering people has not been the custom in Germany since the sixteenth century, any more than hanging people upside down, everybody in the world certainly knows. Therefore that remark could only be an ironical one.

COL. POKROVSKY: I ask the Tribunal to grant me one minute for one last question, literally one minute only.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Do you know that the German troops, evidently understanding irony better than we do—and in the literal sense of the word—quartered, hanged upside down, and roasted Soviet captives over the fire? Did you know of that?

JODL: Not only I did not know it, but I do not even believe it.

COL. POKROVSKY: With the permission of the Tribunal I shall proceed to the last group of questions left to me after the recess.

THE PRESIDENT: How much longer will that take, Colonel Pokrovsky?

COL. POKROVSKY: I have only a very few questions to put, and I believe it will not take very long.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

COL. POKROVSKY: You have given very important testimony before the Tribunal. You have admitted that in 1941 the warriors of the Red Army at Vyazma were fanatically resisting the Fascist invaders. Many of them were taken prisoner only because they were too exhausted to move. You thereby explained the abnormally high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war. Is that correct?

JODL: That is true with regard to the prisoners, particularly in the Vyazma pocket.

COL. POKROVSKY: Can you think of any other reasons you know which would account for this high mortality among the Soviet prisoners of war?

JODL: I did not hear of any other reasons.

COL. POKROVSKY: Then I will refresh your memory a little and draw your attention to a short excerpt from our Exhibit Number USSR-353. It is a letter from Rosenberg to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, that is, it was sent directly to the OKW. The letter is dated 28 February 1942. I would draw your attention to a few short extracts from this document. On Page 1, I believe, the following sentences are underlined:

“The fate of the Soviet prisoners of war in Germany is a
large-scale tragedy.... A great part of them have died of hunger
or from the inclement weather. Thousands have also died of
typhus.”

I will leave out a few sentences and proceed to the next page:

“Several intelligent camp commanders have taken this line with
some success.”

Before it had been a question of the population being willing to supply the prisoners of war with food of their own accord.

“In the majority of cases, however, the camp commanders have
forbidden the civilian population to give any food to the
prisoners of war and have preferred to let them die of
starvation.... Moreover, in many cases, when prisoners of war on
the march could no longer keep up from sheer hunger and
exhaustion, they were shot in full view of the horrified
civilian population; and the corpses were left by the roadside.”

And further on:

“Remarks have been heard like these: ‘The more of these
prisoners that die, the better it will be for us.’”

And again on Page 3:

“It would be too naive to imagine that what went on in the
prisoner-of-war camps could be concealed from the Soviet
Government. It is obvious from Molotov’s circular note that the
Soviets are perfectly well aware of the conditions described
above....”

Have you found the passages in question?

JODL: Yes, I have found them.

COL. POKROVSKY: Now, did you really know nothing of the reasons for this high mortality?

JODL: No. I heard of the letter here in court for the first time.

COL. POKROVSKY: Defendant Jodl, I am not asking you about the letter. I am asking you about the reasons for these mass deaths among the Soviet prisoners. So you did not know of the reasons which led to these mass deaths?

THE PRESIDENT: Is the document signed?

COL. POKROVSKY: The document bears no signature. It is a captured document, Number 081-PS. It belongs to the documents captured by the United States and was handed to us so that we could submit it to the Tribunal.

[_Turning to the defendant._] I did not hear your reply, Defendant.

JODL: I knew nothing about these reasons for the mass deaths. In any case they are completely wrong; that I do know, because I can give rough figures from memory as regards the number of Soviet prisoners of war and their whereabouts.

COL. POKROVSKY: Good. We will now deal with this question from a different angle. Are you familiar with the name of Von Graevenitz?

JODL: Von Graevenitz? Yes, the name is familiar to me.

COL. POKROVSKY: Did he not work in the OKW?

JODL: He was, if I am not mistaken, in the Armed Forces Department as a subordinate of General Reinecke.

COL. POKROVSKY: This time you are quite accurate; you are right. Do you know General Österreich?

JODL: No, I do not know that general.

COL. POKROVSKY: You have never even heard the name?

JODL: I do not recall it.

COL. POKROVSKY: This general was chief of the department in charge of prisoners of war in one of your military districts. Do you perhaps remember this general’s testimony about the directive he had received from Von Graevenitz in the OKW with respect to the Soviet prisoners of war? You will now be shown Document Number USSR-151, Page 5 of the German text. You will find there the passage to which I should like to draw your attention.

“At the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942 I was repeatedly
called to Berlin to attend conferences held by the commanders in
charge of prisoners of war in the military districts.

“The newly appointed commander of the Prisoners of War
Organization in the headquarters of the OKW, Major General Von
Graevenitz, presided over the conference.

“During the conference there was a discussion about the
treatment of prisoners of war who, because of their wounds or
from exhaustion and disease, were unfit to live and unfit to
work. At the suggestion of General Von Graevenitz several of the
officers present, among them several doctors, gave their
opinions on it and declared that such prisoners of war should be
concentrated in a camp or in a hospital and be poisoned.
Following this discussion, Major General Von Graevenitz issued
an order to the effect that all prisoners of war who were unfit
to live and to work should be killed and that medical personnel
should be employed for this purpose.”

Did you know anything at all about that?

JODL: I knew nothing about that at all, and I cannot comment on this document. It has nothing to do with me and I do not know whether what has been said here is true, but General Von Graevenitz must certainly know about it. I had no connection whatsoever with prisoners of war. That was another office, General Reinecke.

COL. POKROVSKY: Von Graevenitz himself defends his statement. He was an executive; he put the directives of the OKW into effect and also issued the relevant instructions and yet you tell me you knew nothing about them?

JODL: I did not say that. General Von Graevenitz is no subordinate of mine. I had no interviews of any kind with him. I have seen him perhaps twice in all my life. I was not responsible for prisoners of war, and I was not competent to deal with them.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. We will now pass on to my last group of questions. There are very few of them.

When Defendant Keitel was cross-examined here before the Tribunal, as well as in the preliminary interrogations preceding the Trial—I believe these particular subjects arose during the preliminary interrogation—he said that you would give us more detailed information about directives for the destruction of Moscow and Leningrad. You stated here before the Tribunal that the directives were issued for two reasons: First, because General Von Leeb had reported on the gradual seeping through of the Leningrad populations to the west and south to the front lines; and secondly, they were issued as a reprisal for Kiev. Is that correct?

JODL: Not reprisals, but the justifiable fear that whatever could happen to us in Kiev could also happen to us in Leningrad; and the third reason was the announcement by the Soviet Russian radio that this would actually take place.

COL. POKROVSKY: Good. The only important thing for me is to establish the fact that you connected the issuing of this directive with the report from the Leningrad front and with the affair in Kiev; is that correct?

JODL: I did not connect them; but events, as they actually happened, necessarily influenced the decision of the Führer in this direction. These were the reasons which he gave himself.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. Perhaps you will remember when the High Command received this information from Leeb—in what month?

JODL: It was in the first days—as far as I remember in the first days of September.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. Perhaps you can also remember the date on which the Germans captured Kiev. Was it not towards the end of September 1941?

JODL: As far as I remember, Kiev was occupied at the end of August. I believe it was on 25 August or about that date. But I cannot...

COL. POKROVSKY: Was that not on 22 September?

JODL: That is entirely out of the question. We have a document here, a report about the incidents in Kiev; I do not know the date of it from memory, but it is Document 053-PS. We must be able to see the date from that document.

COL. POKROVSKY: It is precisely in that document that 23 and 24 September are mentioned. Well, let us, however, suppose that it really did happen in August. Would you not remember the date when Hitler first declared that Leningrad should be razed to the ground?

JODL: I beg your pardon. I have made a mistake all the time about the date. This document is—Document C-323, the Führer decree, is dated 7 October. So, your statement may be correct. I was a month off in my calculations, and the taking of Kiev was actually at the end of September. The reports which we received from Leeb came in the first days of October. I made a mistake. I am sorry.

COL. POKROVSKY: Please, do not mention it; it is of no importance. I only want you to remember when Hitler first stated categorically that he would raze Leningrad to the ground. That is important for me.

JODL: You are referring to the naval document, I assume, the document of the SKL, the Naval Operations Staff.

COL. POKROVSKY: You will now be handed Document L-221 and will be shown the passage where it is written that, on 16 July 1941, during a conference in the Führer’s headquarters, the following statement was made:

“The Finns are claiming the district of Leningrad. The Führer
wants to raze Leningrad to the ground and then hand it over to
the Finns.”

Have you found the passage?

JODL: Yes, I have found the place.

COL. POKROVSKY: This took place on 16 July 1941, did it not?

JODL: The document was written on 16 July 1941, yes.

COL. POKROVSKY: That was considerably earlier than the date you received the report from the Leningrad front?

JODL: Yes, it was 3 months before then.

COL. POKROVSKY: It was also long before the day when explosions and fires first occurred in Kiev. Is that correct?

JODL: Quite correct.

COL. POKROVSKY: It was clearly not by accident that in the directive you drew up yourself and in the statements you made before the Tribunal, you declared that the Führer had again decided to raze Leningrad to the ground. It was not the first time he had made this decision.

JODL: No, this decision, if it actually was a decision—and the statements made at this conference—I learned for the first time here in Court. I personally did not take part in the discussion, nor do I know whether the words were said in that way. My remark that the Führer had again taken a decision refers to the verbal order he had given to the Commander-in-Chief of the Army shortly before, perhaps 1 or 2 days earlier. It is quite clear that there was already talk of this and that in the order I am referring to—a letter of the High Command of the Army of 18 September—and in that way the word “again” is to be explained. I was quite unaware of the fact, and I heard of it for the first time here in Court. It was only here in Court that I heard of the conference taking place at all.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. The Tribunal will probably be able to judge precisely when Hitler made this statement for the first time.

You have declared that you knew nothing about reprisals against the Jews?

JODL: No.

COL. POKROVSKY: And yet you have just referred to Document Number 053-PS.

[_The document was submitted to the defendant._]

It is a report from Koch, personally signed by him. Maybe you will confirm that it states quite clearly that Koch held the civilian population of the city responsible for the Kiev fires and exterminated the entire Jewish population of Kiev, numbering some 35,000 souls, over half of whom were women. That is what the report says. Is it correct?

JODL: I know that very well indeed, but I only found this document here in the document room; and I used it as a good piece of evidence for the incidents in Kiev. The existence of the document was unknown to me until I came to Nuremberg and it never went to the OKW either. At all events, it never came into my hands. I do not know whether it was ever sent.

COL. POKROVSKY: You also did not know whether the Jews were exterminated or not? Is that true?

JODL: I certainly believe it today. There can be no more doubt about that; it has been proved.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. In the document submitted by your defense counsel as Exhibit Number Jodl-3, Document Number 1780-PS, Page 6 of your document book, in the last entry made on that page, you will read the following: “A large proportion of senior generals will leave the Army.”

This refers to the entry in your diary of 3 February 1938. Do you remember?

JODL: Yes, that is from my diary.

COL. POKROVSKY: Are we to understand that resignations from the Army could take place at any time, in other words, that any general could retire or resign from the Army whenever he wanted to? That is what you say here.

JODL: At that time, I believe it was quite possible. In the year 1938 I knew of no decree which prohibited it.

COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. In Document Number Jodl-64, Exhibit Number AJ-11, which was submitted by your defense counsel, we find a passage which, for some reason or other, was not read into the record; and I would like to quote it now. It is the testimony of General Von Vormann, who states under oath that you, together with General Von Hammerstein, often used such expressions as “criminal” and “charlatan,” when referring to Hitler?

Do you confirm the accuracy of that testimony, or has Vormann expressed himself incorrectly?

JODL: To the best of my knowledge, and in all good conscience, I believe that he is confusing two things. In talking about the Führer, I very often said that I looked on him as a charlatan; but I had no cause or reason to consider him a criminal. I often used the expression “criminal”; but not in connection with Hitler, whom I did not even know at the time. I applied it to Röhm. I repeatedly spoke of him as a criminal, in my opinion; and I believe that Vormann is confusing these statements just a little. I often used the expression “charlatan”; that was my opinion at the time.

COL. POKROVSKY: That is to say, you considered Röhm a criminal and the Führer a charlatan? Is that correct?

JODL: Yes, that is right, because at that time it was my opinion. I knew Röhm, but I did not know Adolf Hitler.

COL. POKROVSKY: Then how are we to explain that you accepted leading posts in the military machine of the German Reich, after the man whom you yourself described as a charlatan had come to power?

JODL: Because in the course of the years I became convinced—at least during the years from 1933 to 1938—that he was not a charlatan but a man of gigantic personality who, however, in the end assumed infernal power. But at that time he definitely was an outstanding personality.

COL. POKROVSKY: Did you receive the Golden Party Badge of the Hitler Party?

JODL: Yes, I have already testified to that and confirmed it.

COL. POKROVSKY: In what year did you receive the badge?

JODL: On 30 January 1943.

COL. POKROVSKY: Was it after that when you came to the conclusion that Hitler was not a “charlatan”? Did you hear my question?

JODL: Yes. It became clear to me then that he was, as I said before, a gigantic personality, even if with certain reservations.

COL. POKROVSKY: And after you had reached that conclusion you promptly received the Golden Party Badge? I thank you.

I have no more questions, Your Honor.

DR. NELTE: I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal to the Document Number USSR-151, which was submitted by Colonel Pokrovsky. I should like to ask for this document to be admitted only if General Österreich can be produced as a witness for cross-examination. My reasons for this are the following:

1. The document as submitted contains the heading “Aussagen” or “statements,” but we cannot make out before whom these statements were made.

2. The document contains no mention of the place where it was drawn up.

3. The document is not an affidavit, although according to the last paragraph General Österreich set it down in his own handwriting; and, therefore, it could have been certified as a statement under oath.

Because of the severity of the accusation which this document brings forward against the administration of the prisoner-of-war system, it is necessary in my opinion to order this general to appear here in person.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes; go on.

DR. NELTE: Those are the reasons for my request. In conclusion I should just like to point out that General Von Graevenitz is no longer alive. At all events, he cannot be located. I tried to find him as a witness on behalf of Defendant Keitel.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it a fact that this document was offered in evidence as long ago as February or March?

DR. NELTE: I do not remember that, nor—and I know this for certain—was it issued to us through the Document Division. I am seeing this document for the first time now. But perhaps Colonel Pokrovsky can give some information about it.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider your request.

DR. NELTE: May I also call the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the document is dated 28 December 1945, and it is to be assumed that General Österreich can also be produced by the people who took his testimony at that time.

COL. POKROVSKY: Mr. President, I believe that I can give some information about this document. It was submitted by the Soviet Delegation on 12 February 1946, when it was accepted as evidence by the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, just a moment. Was it translated into German then or was it read in Court?

COL. POKROVSKY: I have just received a memorandum from our document room. The document was submitted on 13 February, at the time when I was presenting documentary evidence with regard to the subject of prisoners of war. It is all I have on the matter.

I personally assume that the document was translated into German as a matter of course at that time. I have almost no doubt about it. However, we can easily make sure.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants’ counsel wish to re-examine the defendant?

DR. EXNER: First of all, I should like to put one question which came up again during the interrogation by the Defense Counsel. It was a point which seems to me in need of clarification.

One of the Defense Counsel reminded you of the photographs which were shown us here depicting atrocities in the occupied countries, and you said that the pictures were genuine.

What do you mean by that?

JODL: I meant to say that it was not trick photography, at which the Russian propagandists were past masters, according to my experience. I meant that they were pictures of actual events. But I also meant to say that the pictures offered no proof of whether it was a matter of atrocities at all, nor did they show who committed them. The fact that they were found in the possession of Germans would even lead us to assume that they were pictures of things which had been perpetrated by the enemy, by the forces of Tito or perhaps the Ustashi. Generally one does not take a picture of one’s own acts of cruelty if any were ever committed.

DR. EXNER: Very well. The English Prosecutor has submitted a new document, 754-PS, dealing with the destructions during the retreat in Norway. Why in this purely military Führer Decree did you write: “The Führer had agreed to the proposals of the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Norwegian territories, and has given his orders accordingly....” and so on? Why did you deliberately put in “to the proposals,” and so forth?

JODL: In issuing orders I had a kind of secret code for the commanders-in-chief. If an order was the result of an agreement between the OKW and the Führer, then I started with the words “The Führer has decreed....”

If a decree originated from the Führer himself, I started the decree with a preamble which gave the Führer’s reasons and the arguments in favor. Then, after the preamble, I wrote “The Führer, therefore, has decreed....”

If the Führer was prompted by the proposal of a nonmilitary agency to issue a decree, then, as a matter of basic principle, I added, “The Führer, on the proposal of this or that civil authority, has decided....” In this way the commanders-in-chief knew what it was all about.

DR. EXNER: Did you draft this decree—Document Number 754-PS—without objection or resistance?