Chapter XII: Front Matter (12)

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord, there are three, Tiefenbacher, Steinbauer, and Strupp. Dr. Kauffmann tells me he does not want these.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then you were speaking about the Defendant Raeder.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, there is the question of Admiral Böhm. Dr. Siemers was going to let the Prosecution see an affidavit, and I have not seen it yet; but, My Lord, I do not anticipate that the Prosecution will require that witness unless the affidavit is in very different form from what I expect.

My Lord, the only other witnesses that I know about are the three for which application was made by Dr. Fritz yesterday in the present case. The Tribunal is considering that.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, that, as far as I can see, is the full extent of the outstanding witnesses, unless I have missed some.

THE PRESIDENT: Was there an application for witnesses from the Defendant Bormann on the 26th of June?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I asked Bergold this morning. He has only got one witness that he is calling, he told me, who unfortunately is not here today.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am told he has just now arrived.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, Your Lordship’s information is later than mine.

THE PRESIDENT: It has only this moment come through.

But so far as the others are concerned, there is only the one that Dr. Bergold wants to call now?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So Dr. Bergold informed me this morning.

DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, only one witness has arrived. But I have put in several more requests which have not been decided on, and I cannot say whether these witnesses will ever arrive or whether they can be found. The Bormann case is characterized by the fact that not only the defendant cannot be found but almost all the witnesses cannot be found either. In the course of today’s proceedings on the Bormann case I should like to put a special application before the High Tribunal which I do not wish to do just now.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. Will you tell us exactly which witnesses you are referring to?

In your letter of the 29th of June you withdraw your application for Fräulein Christians.

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Klöpfer is the witness who just arrived in Nuremberg.

DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Then there are the witnesses Kupfer and Rattenhuber who are still not here and also the witness Christians.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Helmut Friedrich has not been located?

DR. BERGOLD: No, he has not been found.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you wanting to call Fräulein Christians?

DR. BERGOLD: She has not yet arrived either. She was at Camp Oberursel. She received leave and while on leave disappeared—obviously she has fled.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got your application of 26 June or did you make an application of 26 June?

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I did make an application.

THE PRESIDENT: Whom did you ask for then?

DR. BERGOLD: Just a minute, I have to consult my secretary.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Fräulein Christians and Dr. Helmut Friedrich.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Klöpfer and Friedrich.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, and Fräulein Christians, My Lord.

DR. BERGOLD: On 26 June I applied for the witnesses Falkenhorst, Rattenhuber, and Kempka. I could dispense with Falkenhorst if I might have Dr. Klöpfer instead.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Klöpfer is the only one who has arrived, as I understand it.

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, the only one who has arrived, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: What the Tribunal wants to know is how many you want to call now, and with reference to the others you had better withdraw them if you cannot find them.

DR. BERGOLD: Very well, Your Lordship, I wanted to put in an application for postponement. The witness Dr. Klöpfer has only just arrived. Up to now I have not had a chance to talk to him and I consider it unjust for him to have to testify here for the first time. Moreover, he is not prepared, he does not know the documents which have been presented by the Prosecution, and I myself do not know whether he has any knowledge about the things on which I want to question him. Therefore, I should like to apply for the proceedings in the case of Bormann to be postponed until 10 o’clock on Monday to give me the opportunity to hear my one chief witness and to discuss the case with him. I do not even know whether I want to have the witness interrogated for he may possibly make statements that are quite irrelevant. It is not my fault that I have not heard him until now. I applied many months ago to have him brought here and I would not have found him even today if at the last moment I had not had the very kind assistance of the American Prosecution. I believe—I have also spoken to Sir Maxwell-Fyfe—a postponement until Monday at 10 o’clock would be quite proper for my case in order to give me at least time to prepare; if not—my defendant has not been here and my witnesses have not been here and I have not been able to prepare anything.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold, you have had many months in which to prepare your case and the Tribunal has put the matter back for you already for a very long time and this witness is now here. You can see him immediately and the Tribunal thinks you ought to go on. You must have known that the case would come on, in the same way every other case has come on, in its proper place, subject to the license which has been allowed to you to have your case put back to the end and all your applications for witnesses and documents put back to the very latest possible moment; and the witness is here and we still have some time to deal with the witnesses for Fritzsche and documents.

The Tribunal thinks in those circumstances you ought to go on.

DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, it is quite correct I have had months at my disposal; but if I can obtain no witnesses and no information—I ask the Tribunal to put themselves in my place. What is the use to me of waiting many months in vain, months during which I could do nothing. The witnesses were not here, nobody could tell me where the witness Klöpfer could be found. He was only found at the very last moment. I cannot discuss the entire case with him in 15 minutes. I am just asking for a very short postponement until Monday morning. The Tribunal will lose only a very few hours through that. It is not my fault that I have been assigned such an unusual defendant, one who is not present.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the only thing you propose to prove by this witness is the alleged fact that Bormann is dead and any evidence he can give about that. That is what the application says.

DR. BERGOLD: No, may it please the Court, that is a mistake. The witness Klöpfer cannot testify as to that. He can only give his opinion as to the rest of the Indictment, namely whether Bormann is guilty or not. Only the witnesses Christians, Lueger, and Rattenhuber can give evidence as to the death of the Defendant Bormann. But the witness Klöpfer can only testify concerning the Indictment itself.

THE PRESIDENT: Where is the application for Klöpfer? Where is your application?

DR. BERGOLD: It is my application of 26 May.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me see it. Have you got it there? Dr. Bergold, do you not have anything else at all in the way of documents or evidence that you can continue with without calling this witness Klöpfer?

DR. BERGOLD: My Lord, what I have is so small and meager that I myself do not know whether it is relevant until I have questioned the witness. Up to this point I have been dependent on pure supposition. I have not been able to receive or obtain any effective data. They are all legal constructions which can be made untenable by one word from the witness.

MR. THOMAS J. DODD (Executive Trial Counsel for the United States): Mr. President, I have an objection to any postponement for this case. As the Court has pointed out, counsel has had months and he had every co-operation from our office, both for his documents and for his seeking out of his witnesses; and if he would stop talking and go out and talk with his witness, who is here now, I think he might be prepared to go on with his case.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the Tribunal will go on with the case against the Defendant Fritzsche now, and in the meantime, you will have an opportunity of seeing this witness Klöpfer; and if after seeing him you wish to make further application, you may do so; but the Tribunal hopes that, if you can ascertain what the nature of his evidence is, that you will be able to go on with it.

I now have your—I had it only in German before—but I now have in English your application for the witness Klöpfer, and a summary of it is that he was head of Section III in the Party Chancellery and he can deal with questions relating to the drafting and elaboration of laws and that he is to testify that the activity of Bormann in the proclamation of laws and ordinances was an entirely subordinate one. That is the only reason why you allege that you want to call him in your application.

DR. BERGOLD: That is my supposition. There is the possibility that the witness, of course, really knows much more, for he was one of the chief collaborators. I drew up my applications very carefully, because as a lawyer I did not want to submit a fantasy to the Court.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have said what you can do with reference to Klöpfer, and are you still asking to call a witness called Falkenhorst?

DR. BERGOLD: I can only decide on that after I have talked with the witness Klöpfer. In all probability I shall forego the calling of this witness Falkenhorst.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you heard what I said, Dr. Bergold. You can now see Dr. Klöpfer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I only wanted the Tribunal to know that that was the position as to witnesses; and when Your Lordship asked me, I said that the process of finishing off witnesses might take 2 days. My Lord, subject to the Katyn witnesses, it might take much shorter than that, as I am at present advised.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And when shall we be informed what the position is with reference to the Katyn witnesses, as to whether there is an agreement as to using affidavits or calling witnesses?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I will make inquiries and try to let Your Lordship know at the end of the session.

THE PRESIDENT: I take it that we shall not be able to go into that this morning.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not think so. Apart from that, there are certain outstanding interrogatories which Counsel for the Defense may want to refer the Tribunal to; but that is the only other matter I know. From the point of view of the Prosecution, there may be a few documents which will be put in more or less to clarify points that have arisen during the case, rather than formal evidence and rebuttal. They will be quite small in number and Will not take any time.

THE PRESIDENT: Were there any documents on behalf of the Defendant Von Neurath which have got to be dealt with?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My recollection is that there were one or two interrogatories, but apart from that I do not know of any others.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps those matters had better be gone into on Monday morning.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal hopes that counsel for the defendants understand that the Tribunal will expect them to be prepared to go on with their speeches on behalf of the defendants directly the evidence is finished.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is to try to give some indication of the time that I ventured to intervene this morning.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: As I understand it, the proposal is that Professor Jahrreiss will make his general speech first.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I understand the professor is ready to do that and I thought it would be useful if it were known that that might occur even on Monday.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then, now, Dr. Fritz, perhaps you will continue with your witness.

[_The witness Von Schirmeister resumed the stand._]

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, Gentlemen of the Tribunal, I beg to be permitted to continue with the examination of the witness Von Schirmeister.

Witness, yesterday, at the end of the session, we stopped at the point dealing with the anti-Semitism expressed by the Defendant Fritzsche in his radio speeches; in connection with that point, I have a further question. According to the statement made by Dr. Goebbels, to where were the Jews evacuated?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Up to the first year of the Russian campaign, Dr. Goebbels in the conferences over which he presided, repeatedly mentioned the Madagascar plan. Later he changed this and said that a new Jewish state was to be formed in the East, to which the Jews were to be taken.

DR. FRITZ: Do you know whether, in dealing with reports from abroad concerning alleged German atrocities, not only towards the Jews but towards other peoples as well, Fritzsche always had inquiries made at the RSHA or other authorities concerned?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Yes. Not only with regard to atrocity reports but all propaganda reports from abroad which were embarrassing to us. He made inquiries sometimes at the office of Müller, at the RSHA in Berlin, and sometimes he inquired of the authorities that were directly concerned in these matters.

DR. FRITZ: And what other agencies were concerned besides the RSHA where he might have made inquiries?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: For example, the Ministry of Food and Agriculture, the Armament Ministry, the OKW; it all depended.

DR. FRITZ: Do you know whether in reply to such inquiries a clear and completely plausible denial was given, or how was a matter of this sort handled?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: There were not always denials, not at all; very frequently we had quite precise answers. For example, if it was asserted that there had been a strike in Bohemia-Moravia, then the answer was: Yes, in such and such a factory a strike took place. But always and without exception, there was a very definite denial of concentration camp atrocities and so forth. That is precisely why these denials were so widely believed. I must emphasize that this was our only possibility of getting information. These pieces of information were not intended for the public, but for the minister, and again and again the answer came: “No, there is no word of truth in this.” Even today I do not know by what other means we could have obtained information.

DR. FRITZ: Can you say anything about Fritzsche’s attitude on church questions?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Herr Fritzsche adopted the views taken by the minister during the war. At the beginning of the war, the minister demanded complete cessation of the strife regarding this question, for anything which could have brought dissension among the German people would have had a disturbing influence. I do not know whether I should go into further details.

DR. FRITZ: No, I shall turn to another very important topic. Do you know what reasons Goebbels gave to his assistants for the various military actions of Germany?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: He gave no reasons of his own at all. He only added his comments to the announcements coming from the Führer.

DR. FRITZ: To quote some examples, can you say briefly whether the Defendant Fritzsche knew in advance that a military attack was being planned on first, Poland; second, Belgium and Holland; third, Yugoslavia?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: In the case of Poland, we knew of course that the question of Danzig and the Corridor was awaiting a decision. But Dr. Goebbels himself repeatedly assured us, and he himself believed, that this question would not lead to war because, completely mistaken in his view of the attitude of the Western Powers, he was convinced that they were only bluffing and that Poland would not risk a war without the military support of the Western Powers.

DR. FRITZ: What about Belgium and Holland?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: On the day before the attack on Belgium and Holland events were overshadowed by the state visit of the Italian Minister Pavolini. In the evening there was a performance at the theater and afterwards a reception in the House of the Airmen. At night Dr. Goebbels went with me to the ministry where he occasionally spent the night. During the night I had to telephone to several gentlemen; and in the morning the minister, in my presence, presented to Herr Fritzsche the two announcements which were then broadcast, the first containing the military reasons and the second containing the secret service reasons. Herr Fritzsche did not even have time to look at these announcements; moreover, he had a sore throat and I had to read the second broadcast, with the secret service reasons; I also had not seen these announcements beforehand.

DR. FRITZ: What about Yugoslavia?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: The same thing happened. In the evening the minister had dismissed his adjutant, had given him leave. During the night I had to call the various gentlemen over the phone and ask them to assemble; and early in the morning the statement, which up to that time had been completely unknown to us, was read to us over the radio.

DR. FRITZ: And what happened in the case of the attack on the Soviet Union?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: That was even more preposterous. Before the attack on the Soviet Union, the minister, for purposes of camouflage, had lied to his own department chiefs. Around the beginning of May he selected 10 of his colleagues out of the 20 who ordinarily participated in the conferences, and he told them:

“Gentlemen, I know that some of you think that we are going to
fight Russia, but I must tell you today that we are going to
fight England; the invasion is imminent. Please adapt your work
accordingly. You, Dr. Glasmeier, will launch a new propaganda
campaign against England...”

These were impudent lies told to his own department chiefs for purposes of camouflage.

DR. FRITZ: Are you implying that no one in the Propaganda Ministry knew of the imminent campaign against Russia?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: No. The following gentlemen in the Propaganda Ministry knew about the Russian campaign—if I may presume, a letter to Dr. Goebbels from Lammers offered a clue for it, for in it Lammers told the minister in confidence that the Führer intended to appoint Herr Rosenberg to be Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories; the letter also asked Dr. Goebbels to name a liaison man from our ministry to Herr Rosenberg personally, and that, of course, gave away the secret. The people who knew of this were the minister; Herr Hadamowsky, as his provisional personal representative; Dr. Tauber, the liaison man to be appointed; I, myself, because by accident I had read this letter; and the head of the foreign press department, Dr. Böhme. Dr. Böhme, and this is very important, told me on the day before his arrest in the presence of Prince Schaumburg-Lippe that he had received this information from Rosenberg’s circle, that is—and I want to emphasize this—not from our ministry or from our minister. Otherwise, as heads of two parallel departments, both would, of course, have been informed. If Böhme did not know it from the minister, then Herr Fritzsche could not have known it either. As a result of a careless remark on this subject, Böhme was arrested on the following day and later killed in action.

DR. FRITZ: Now I want to summarize this part of my examination in the following general question: Did you ever notice that before important political or military actions of the Government or the NSDAP, Goebbels exchanged ideas about future plans with the Defendant Fritzsche?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: It is quite impossible that that occurred; it would have been in complete contradiction to the minister’s principles. Not only did he not exchange ideas on future plans but he did not even inform anyone.

DR. FRITZ: Now we shall turn to a different subject. The Prosecution charges the Defendant Fritzsche with having influenced the German people in the idea of the master race and thus with having incited hatred against other nations. Did Fritzsche ever receive instructions at all to conduct a propaganda campaign on behalf of the theory of the master race?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: No, under no circumstances. In this connection, one must know that Dr. Goebbels could not at all use this Party dogma and myth. These are not things which attract the masses. To him the Party was a large reservoir in which as many different sections of the German people as possible should be united; and particularly this idea of the master race, perhaps on account of his own physical disability, he ridiculed and rejected completely; it did not appeal to him. Shall I answer the question of hatred now? You also asked me about that.

DR. FRITZ: Yes.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: A propaganda of hatred against other nations was quite contrary to the propaganda line as set out by Dr. Goebbels, for he hoped, and to the end he clung to this hope like a _fata morgana_, that one day he could change from the policy of “against England” and “against America” to the policy of “with England” and “with America.” And if one wants to do that one cannot foster hatred against a nation. He wanted to be in line with the nations, not against them.

DR. FRITZ: Against whom then was this propaganda in the press and on the radio directed?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Primarily, against systems; it was Dr. Goebbels who established the concept “plutocracy” in the sense in which the whole world knows it today, later the concept “Bolshevism” was added from the other side. Sometimes his propaganda was directed against some of the men in power; but he could not get the full co-operation of the German press on that point. That annoyed him; and in a conference he once said, “Gentlemen, if I could put 10 Jews in your place, I could get it done.” But later he stopped these attacks on personalities such as Churchill; he was afraid that these men would become too popular as a result of his counterpropaganda. Apart from that he did not hate Churchill personally at all, secretly he actually admired him; just as, for example, throughout the war he had a picture of the Duke of Windsor on his desk. Therefore the propaganda of hatred was directed temporarily against individual men but always against systems.

DR. FRITZ: Witness, before answering the next question, will you check your memory very carefully, and particularly remember your oath. Was it the aim of this propaganda for which Fritzsche received orders and which he carried out, to arouse unrestrained passions tantamount to incitement to murder and violence, or what was its purpose?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: No. The minister could not use passions at all in his propaganda, for passions flare up and die down again. What the minister did need was a steady and constant line, steadfastness even in hard times. Stirring up of passions, inciting to hatred, or even murder would not have appealed to the German people nor could Dr. Goebbels use anything like that.

DR. FRITZ: Did German propaganda abroad, especially in Russia, come under the direction of the Propaganda Ministry at all?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I must differentiate here. I do not know whether I should go into the well-known differences between Dr. Goebbels and Ribbentrop. At the beginning of the war the Foreign Office had demanded charge of all foreign propaganda, namely, propaganda in foreign countries, radio propaganda broadcasts to foreign countries, and, propaganda directed towards foreigners living in Germany. Very disagreeable controversies resulted; the problem was put to the Führer himself, but finally both sides interpreted his decision in their own favor.

DR. FRITZ: Witness, would you, perhaps, be a little more brief?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Very well, I can leave that. The differences between the two men are well known. However, in regard to Russia, I must add that there both press and propaganda came under the jurisdiction of Herr Rosenberg up to about March of 1944. And in this sphere as well, Dr. Goebbels...

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, wait a minute. What has this Russian propaganda got to do with the defendant?

DR. FRITZ: No; the German propaganda in Russian territory—that is what I asked him about. He is only going to say one sentence about it; in fact, he has already said it.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Up to 1944, Rosenberg—to the great concern of Dr. Goebbels who believed that the Russian campaign could have been won in the field of propaganda.

DR. FRITZ: I have one more question to put to you.

Yesterday, when Herr Fritzsche was being cross-examined, the Prosecution submitted several interrogation records; among them, for example, that of Field Marshal Schörner, in which the testimony is unanimous in saying that Fritzsche was the permanent deputy of Goebbels as Propaganda Minister. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: That is bare nonsense. I cannot imagine how a statement like that came to be made. There is not a word of truth in it.

DR. FRITZ: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any of the other defendants’ counsel want to ask any questions of the witness?

[_There was no response._]

Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?

GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, the Prosecution do not intend to question this witness; but this does not mean that we accept without objection the testimony which he has given here.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I should like to point out and request the Tribunal to take judicial notice also of the documents which are contained in both my document books but which I did not quote. In my Document Book Number 2 there is another affidavit deposed by Dr. Scharping, a document which I offer to the Tribunal as Document Number Fritzsche-3, Pages 16 to 19. This affidavit deals with the attitude of the Defendant Fritzsche on measures which Hitler had planned after the large-scale air attacks on the city of Dresden. May I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the entire contents of this affidavit, on Page 16 and the following pages, Document Book Number 2.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, the Tribunal observe that in Exhibit 3, which you have just presented to us, there is a statement by the person making the affidavit that after the bombing of German cities in the fall of 1944, “Dr. Goebbels stated that there was no longer any objection to handing over crew members of crashed airplanes to the wrath of the people.”

The Tribunal would like to have the Defendant Fritzsche back in the witness box and to question him about that.

Did you ask any questions of the Defendant Fritzsche in reference to this matter in your examination of him?

DR. FRITZ: No, Mr. President, I expected—I wanted to say at the conclusion of my case that I had expected a statement on this subject from the representative of the protecting power, the Swiss Ambassador in Berlin. This statement has, however, not yet reached me. I wanted to ask permission to submit it later if it arrives in time.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that another interrogatory or affidavit that you mean?

DR. FRITZ: Yes, it is a statement which deals with this subject.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. FRITZ: And if I may be permitted to add this, Mr. President, I also expect a statement from a British radio commentator, Clifton Delmar. That statement has not yet arrived. May I perhaps submit that?

THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, you may. But what the Tribunal is concerned with at the moment is that they think it material that they should know...

DR. FRITZ: Yes, I quite understand, Mr. President.

[_The Defendant Fritzsche resumed the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: You are still under oath. You may sit down.

You have read this affidavit?

FRITZSCHE: But I no longer remember it in detail.

THE PRESIDENT: We did not hear the answer to that.

FRITZSCHE: I no longer recall in detail this affidavit which my counsel has just submitted to the Tribunal. I know that it exists, however.

THE PRESIDENT: The statement that the Tribunal wished you to be asked about was this:

“Beginning in the fall of 1944, Dr. Goebbels also spoke about
this frequently during his so-called conferences of
ministers...”

I’ll begin before that:

“The increasing effect of English and American air bombardments
on German cities caused Hitler and his more intimate advisers to
seek drastic measures of reprisal. Beginning in the fall of
1944, Dr. Goebbels also spoke about this frequently during his
so-called conferences of ministers, to which numerous officials
and technicians of his ministry were convened and which, as a
rule, I also attended.”

That is Franz Scharping?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT:

“On such occasions Dr. Goebbels stated that there was no longer
any objection to handing over crew members of crashed planes to
the wrath of the people.”

As you know, there has been a great deal of evidence about that before this Tribunal. Did you in your propaganda speeches make any references to this subject?

FRITZSCHE: No, I never advocated in my propaganda speeches that the crews of aircraft which had been shot down should be killed. On the other hand, I know that Dr. Goebbels, for reasons of intimidation, ordered reports to be sent abroad already in the fall of 1944, reports to the effect that, to quote an example, an Anglo-Saxon airplane which had machine-gunned church-goers in the street on a Sunday had been shot down and the members of the crew had been lynched by the people. Actually this report had no factual basis; it hardly could have been true, since it is quite improbable that an airplane is shot down at just such a moment.

I know that Dr. Goebbels, through a circular letter addressed to the Gau Propaganda Offices, asked that details of such incidents, if they actually occurred, should be transmitted to him; but to my knowledge he did not receive any factual details of this sort. That was also the time in which he had an article on this subject written in Reich; I cannot recall the title of this article at the moment. In any event, this campaign, having died down in January or February, flared up again in the days after the air attack on Dresden, and the following incident occurred. Dr. Goebbels announced in the “11 o’clock morning conference,” which has been mentioned quite frequently in this courtroom, that in the Dresden attack 40,000 people had been killed. It was not known then that the actual figure was a considerably higher one. Dr. Goebbels added that in one way or another an end would now have to be put to this terror; and Hitler was firmly determined to have English, American, and Russian flyers shot in Dresden in numbers equal to the figure of Dresden inhabitants who had lost their lives in this air attack. Then he turned to me and asked me to prepare and announce this action. There followed an incident: I jumped up and refused to do this. Dr. Goebbels broke off the conference, asked me to come to his room, and there a very heated discussion developed between us.

Finally I had persuaded him at least to the point where he promised me to use his influence with Hitler himself, so that this plan would not be carried through. I then spoke to Ambassador Rühle, the liaison man of the Foreign Office and asked him to enlist the aid of his minister to the same end. I also requested State Secretary Naumann to speak along the same lines with Bormann, whose predominant influence was well known.

Following that, I had a discussion—under the existing regulations this was not really permitted—with the representative of the protecting power. In confidence, I gave him certain indications about the plan of which I had heard and asked him whether he could suggest or supply me with some argument or some means for countering this plan more intensively.

He said he would attend to the matter with the utmost speed and he called me up on the following morning. We had a second discussion, and he told me that in the meantime a prospect for an exchange of prisoners had been held out to him—that is, an exchange of German and English prisoners—to comprise, I believe, 50,000 men.

I asked him to have this matter go through the normal diplomatic channels, but to permit me to discuss this possibility of an exchange of prisoners of war with Dr. Goebbels, Naumann, and Bormann. I did so, and since just at that time the leaders were obviously especially interested in returning prisoners of war who could perhaps still be used at the front, this prospective offer...

THE PRESIDENT: How did you think that this possible exchange of prisoners was going to affect the question of whether 40,000 English and American, and Russian fliers would be killed as a reprisal?

FRITZSCHE: It appeared to me that at a time when we had the opportunity of effecting an exchange of prisoners of war, all thought of an action which was quite outside all human laws had to be repressed; that is, if there was talk about an exchange of prisoners of war, the idea of a gigantic shooting of prisoners had to be shunted into the background.

I conclude briefly. This plan was discussed. I told Dr. Goebbels about it; and it was discussed in the evening with Hitler, according to concurring reports which I had from two different sources. By some strange accident the offer itself ran aground somewhere along the bureaucratic channels many days after the settlement of this exciting incident.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Can you hear now? I am asking you when you heard about Hitler’s order, not with respect to these prisoners, but with respect to the fliers who had landed? When did you first hear of that? You said that in the fall Goebbels had sent abroad some propaganda with respect to that order. Did you know about it then?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): In the autumn of 1944 you knew about that order?

FRITZSCHE: No.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): When did you?

FRITZSCHE: I cannot say exactly, but in the autumn of 1944 I did not know this order. I have to be extremely careful since I am under oath. I believe I heard of the order only here in this courtroom, but that is somewhat confused in my memory with the campaign of Dr. Goebbels which I have just described. I cannot clearly...

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Surely in that meeting in February that order was discussed when they were discussing the killing of 40,000 prisoners, was it not?

FRITZSCHE: No, on that occasion not at all.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You had no doubt that Hitler wished to have those prisoners killed, did you?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, at the time when Dr. Goebbels related the plan, I believed that Hitler wished to carry through this action.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Then the answer is “yes.” Now, you had no doubt that Goebbels wanted them killed, did you?

FRITZSCHE: The 40,000 in Dresden?

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Yes.

FRITZSCHE: In general, yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Yes.

FRITZSCHE: Yes, I had no doubt that Goebbels also approved it.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And which other of the leaders wished them killed? It was apparently discussed a good deal; who else in the Government was in favor of this policy?

FRITZSCHE: I cannot say with certainty whether Bormann was in favor of it; he was the only other concerned. I do know, however, that Von Ribbentrop, through Ambassador Rühle, made an attempt to dissuade Hitler from this step. He opposed Hitler’s plan.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Ribbentrop was working in this particular problem of killing the prisoners? I am not clear about that. Did Ribbentrop know about it?

FRITZSCHE: At that time I told Ambassador Rühle about this affair and asked him to inform Ribbentrop and to enlist his aid. A day or two later Rühle told me—we had frequent excited telephone conversations on this matter—that Ribbentrop was...

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): I do not need the details. The answer is that the Foreign Office knew, even if Ribbentrop may not have known personally. Is that right?

FRITZSCHE: Ribbentrop was informed personally.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): That is all I want to know.

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Do you know what attitude Bormann took in this matter?

FRITZSCHE: According to the accounts that I heard, he at first supported Hitler’s plan to shoot those 40,000; but afterwards, under the influence of Goebbels and Naumann, he took the opposite view and co-operated in dissuading Hitler from his intention.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Were they only consulted in the matter as far as the commanders of the Wehrmacht were concerned?

FRITZSCHE: I know nothing about that.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): It is suggested that I should also ask you this: Do you know what attitude Ribbentrop took on the shooting of these prisoners?

FRITZSCHE: Yes. After Ambassador Rühle’s report to him, he used his influence to prevent the execution of Hitler’s plan; in what way, I do not know.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, do you wish to ask the defendant any question?

DR. FRITZ: No, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution wish to ask any questions arising out of the questions that the Tribunal has asked?

GEN. RUDENKO: No, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Then the defendant can return to the dock.

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, this brings me to the end of the evidence in the case of the Defendant Fritzsche.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you offering in evidence all of the documents in your two document books, each one of them?

DR. FRITZ: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Are they marked with exhibit numbers?

DR. FRITZ: Yes, I submitted all the originals.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Have you not got two Exhibits 1; Exhibit 1 in one book and Exhibit 1 in the other book?

DR. FRITZ: No, there are no Fritzsche exhibits at all in my Document