Chapter XIX: Book 1: , Mr. President (7)

“If, when we went out to rescue our own people or to make
reconnaissance flights for them or were engaged on other work,
we saw that crews, also enemy crews, were in distress off the
enemy coast or beyond the range of our own rescue services, we
immediately signaled to the enemy and called upon him to go to
the rescue.”

Then there are several questions put by the Prosecution. The first question is: “What had Kaltenbrunner to do with...”

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, it is for the Prosecution to read their questions if they want to read them.

DR. STAHMER: I am not interested in these questions, Mr. President.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Prosecution do not want the questions read.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will read them. Do you mean you want to put them in—put them in evidence?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We will put them in, but we do not want them read.

THE PRESIDENT: Right.

DR. STAHMER: I have already stated that this is Exhibit Göring-55.

Then I have one more interrogatory, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, you realize that the Tribunal proposes to read all the evidence and therefore these interrogatories will be read and considered even though they are not read now in open court. You have offered them in evidence, so the Tribunal will be grateful if you will cut short the reading of these affidavits and interrogatories as far as possible.

DR. STAHMER: I shall proceed accordingly, Mr. President. Now, we turn to the interrogatory of Hammerstein which I shall submit as Exhibit Number Göring-52. Mr. President, this interrogatory is not at my disposal in the original. I can only submit an attested copy. It has been submitted to the Prosecution; it has been translated but it cannot be found at the moment. But I assume I shall find the original very soon; I have advised Sir David of this. The British Prosecution has already had it and this document has been translated.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean the original has been mislaid or something.

DR. STAHMER: It has been mislaid, Mr. President, and I am unable to find it at the moment. Anyhow, it has been submitted.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, there is no objection to this affidavit. I have a copy in front of me. It is general in its terms and, if I may say so, I thought it would serve its purpose admirably if Dr. Stahmer put it in and the Tribunal consider it in due course.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. STAHMER: The original will be submitted in the next few days. It is an interrogatory of the Judge Advocate of the Air Force, Dr. Von Hammerstein. For several years he was the Supreme Judge of the Air Force and in that capacity he reported once a month to the Defendant Göring. Thus he was in a position to judge the attitude of Göring as supreme legal authority and he now describes in detail how seriously the Defendant Göring took his duties as supreme legal authority.

He further describes how the Reich Marshal Göring reserved to himself the right to decide the more important matters; how he took great care in dealing with all matters, how he insisted that the soldiers under his command must maintain strict discipline. He particularly saw to it that the soldiers under his command were punished most severely if they committed illegal acts against the civilian population and especially against the civilian population in the occupied countries.

Then he further describes how Reich Marshal Göring demanded severe punishment particularly when it was a question of violating the honor of women and how in the many decrees he always insisted that due respect to the honor of women was the first duty of a soldier; how in serious cases of rape, he always demanded the death penalty, no matter what the nationality of the woman was. In two cases, for instance, he rescinded the sentences because they were too lenient and he confirmed the sentence only after the death penalty had been pronounced.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, surely, what you have said, Dr. Stahmer, has given us the substance of the affidavit. You said that this man was the Judge Advocate for the Air Force and that the law with reference to offenses in the Air Force was strictly carried out. I am sure that is all you want to say in summarizing it.

DR. STAHMER: Yes, Mr. President. What I wanted to bring out was that it did not matter what the nationality of the woman involved was. In one case against a Russian woman, he...

THE PRESIDENT: That is exactly what I have said, that the law was strictly carried out. It is only an illustration of how the law was strictly carried out.

DR. STAHMER: Very well, Mr. President, I have given the substance. I shall dispense with all further explanation and submit this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal thinks that their time is being wasted, and unless Counsel for the Defense can do what the Tribunal desires them to do, which is to offer these affidavits and interrogatories in evidence, giving the shortest possible summary or description of the affidavits or interrogatories, the Tribunal will have to order that the interrogatories and affidavits shall be simply offered in evidence, and they will hear no comment whatever on them.

The time is approaching immediately when the defense counsel are going, to make their speeches, and if there is anything in these affidavits or interrogatories of real importance, they will have the opportunity then of commenting upon it. And also, the Tribunal itself proposes to read not only the oral evidence, but the documentary evidence in this case.

DR. STAHMER: Then, Mr. President, I should like to submit this document under Exhibit Number Göring-52.

THE PRESIDENT: Now then, the counsel for the Defendant Von Ribbentrop, Dr. Horn, you have no affidavits or interrogatories to put in, have you, that have been approved by the Tribunal?

DR. HORN: Mr. President, I ask to be permitted to submit four affidavits to the Tribunal.

We are concerned here with the affidavit of Legation Counsellor Dr. Eberhardt von Thadden. Legation Counsellor Von Thadden was in the Information Office Number 14 of the Foreign Office, which was a branch which dealt with the Jewish problem and with the co-ordination of anti-Semitic propaganda in foreign countries with other German agencies. It was...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Horn, have you applied for these documents?

DR. HORN: I applied to the General Secretary in writing and I asked that these affidavits be accepted. This morning I received confirmation that these affidavits had been given to the Prosecution and to the Translation Division. Therefore, I beg to submit this document as Exhibit Number Ribbentrop-319.

A further affidavit which I am submitting, and I have applied to the General Secretary in writing for its acceptance, is the affidavit of Dr. Werner Best, the former Reich plenipotentiary.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sorry, but I was telling Dr. Horn that we have not had copies of these yet; they have not reached us so far.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have before me a list of four affidavits, Thadden, Best, Ribbentrop and Schulze, and it is stated that they are not approved by the Tribunal. Therefore...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, Dr. Horn mentioned them to me a day or two ago and asked me whether I should object to their being translated, and I said “no,” that I should not object to their being translated. Of course, I have not had a chance to see them.

THE PRESIDENT: Would not the best course, as they have gone to the Translation Division, be for them to be offered in evidence now, as I understand Dr. Horn is intending to do, subject, of course, to any question which may arise as to their admissibility?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, if you will just give us the numbers then.

DR. HORN: The affidavit signed by Best I should like to submit as Exhibit Ribbentrop-320. I should like to give a brief explanation of the reason for this affidavit.

In cross-examination, my client was confronted with Document 2375-PS. This document is an affidavit of a colonel of the Police, Dr. Rudolf Mildner. A passage from this affidavit which dealt with the handling of the Jewish question in Denmark was quoted to my client. I examined this document and have ascertained that two documents bear the Number 2375-PS. One document is a statement made by Dr. Mildner which was not made under oath. This statement which was not made under oath contained that passage which was put to my client in cross-examination. Under the same number there is an affidavit which has been sworn and is also by Dr. Mildner. The passage about the attitude of Ribbentrop to the Jewish question is not contained in this affidavit.

For this reason, I have got Dr. Best, who had been instructed by Ribbentrop to handle the Jewish question and, according to Dr. Mildner, did do so, to give this affidavit, Document Number Ribbentrop-320, which I am now submitting to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. HORN: Apart from that my client was confronted in cross-examination with a series of documents to which he could make only brief statements as they were lengthy documents, most of which he had not seen before. I should like to ask the Tribunal to permit me to submit a few brief explanations on behalf of my client in the form of an affidavit, which I shall call Exhibit Number Ribbentrop-321.

Then, I should like to be permitted to define my attitude on Document TC-75. TC-75 represents a note sent by Ribbentrop to Hitler. This was submitted by the Prosecution in a very abbreviated form. When I had this document given to me in the original for the first time, the photo copy tallied with the copy submitted by the Prosecution. When I had this same document given to me a second time, I received a photostatic copy of nine pages. In my final speech I should like to refer to this document. Therefore, in order to save the Tribunal’s time I ask for permission to submit this complete Document TC-75.

I have no further applications, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Horn, you did not give a number to that last affidavit.

DR. HORN: TC-75 will become Exhibit Number Ribbentrop-322.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, with the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to deal with those points of my examination which have not yet been dealt with.

First of all we are concerned with the witness who has been allowed me by the Tribunal, Generaladmiral Böhm. The Tribunal will recall that I was permitted to examine this witness at the end of the presentation of evidence. In the meantime, after consultation with Mr. Elwyn Jones and Sir David, I have obtained an affidavit from Generaladmiral Böhm in Hamburg, so that I could perhaps dispense with calling him as a witness.

I submitted this affidavit to Sir David and to Mr. Elwyn Jones and Mr. Jones told me yesterday afternoon that Sir David agreed, and that he would dispense with the cross-examination, and at the same time I agreed not to insist on an examination, but to be satisfied with the submitting and the reading of the affidavit. I believe Sir David agrees.

I should like to submit this affidavit of Generaladmiral Böhm’s as Exhibit Number Raeder-129. This was sworn to on 13 June this year in the presence of notary Dr. Sieveking at Hamburg.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not necessary to read it now, is it?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I should be very grateful if I might be permitted to read this affidavit, as it deals with a portion of evidence which is quite significant. The Tribunal will, I am sure, recall the fact...

THE PRESIDENT: But I have already told you, Dr. Siemers—you can certainly confine yourself to the really important part of it and summarize anything that is really not so important. We cannot have all these documents read out to us.

DR. SIEMERS: The Tribunal will agree with me that as far as my other documents are concerned, I read remarkably little. My reason for wanting to read a part of it was because the British Delegation, at the close of the cross-examination, submitted two very lengthy summaries, GB-464 and GB-465. These are summaries about the key documents of the 22d.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, surely you can tell us what the subject matter of the affidavit is. We will then know the general subject matter of it, and then I should have thought you could direct your attention to the particular matters which are of special importance here. It only takes up time if you are going to tell us what the Prosecution have done.

DR. SIEMERS: I beg your pardon. Mr. President, if I have been misunderstood. It was my intention to do that.

I shall not read from “I” of the affidavit. I shall only summarize it. It is a discussion between Raeder and Generaladmiral Böhm in the summer of 1939, on which occasion Böhm told Raeder that he was worried about the political developments. He then asked Raeder whether he had called Hitler’s attention to the great dangers and to the fact that the German Navy would not be in a position to carry on a war at sea:

“Grossadmiral Raeder replied to me”—and these are his
words—“that he had put this up to Hitler more than once, and
that he had concluded his exposition to Hitler with the
fundamental sentence: ‘In such a case the Navy could not do
anything but die gloriously.’”

Number II of the affidavit of Generaladmiral Böhm:

“On 22 August 1939 Hitler made a speech to the top leaders of
the Armed Forces at the Obersalzberg. I was present during the
entire speech, which lasted 2 to 2½ hours. The speech was
delivered in Hitler’s office.”

I am omitting the next few points and continue:

“The speech”—which was submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit
Number Raeder-27—“has been set down by me with great accuracy,
and I can state under oath that the speech was delivered in the
way in which I have set it down. In particular I can confirm
that my account contains all the important ideas and words.

“The versions submitted by the Prosecution, Documents Number
798-PS and 1014-PS, have been submitted to me by Dr. Siemers. I
have now compared my version with these two versions.”

I am again skipping a paragraph.

“I declare under oath that some of the expressions used in these
documents were not used by Hitler at all, while others were used
by Hitler partly in another sense and partly in another form.

“As to Document 798-PS, the following numbers of the pages and
lines agree with the version which I have just received, and
which was submitted by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe.”

I should like to remind the Tribunal that this is the 10-page summary, GB-464. In this version you will find the sentence:

“‘Afterward we shall discuss military details.’

“Comment: This sentence was not used. Military details did not
follow in 798-PS either.

“Page 1, Lines 7 to 10: ‘I made this decision already in the
spring, but I thought that first of all, in a few years’ time, I
should turn against the West, and only afterward against the
East.’

“Comment: The account as set down by me, on Page 1, Lines 5 to
8, is absolutely true. In any case Hitler never used the words
that he would first of all turn against the West.

“Page 1, Lines 12 to 14: ‘First of all I wanted to bring about
satisfactory relations with Poland so that I could first of all
fight against the West.’

“Comment: This sentence was never used, and what I have just
said applies here, too. Hitler never voiced the intention that
he wanted to fight against the West.”

Now I shall omit the next point and on Lines 15 to 18 on Page 2 it says:

“‘It is easy for us to make decisions. We have nothing to lose,
only to gain. Our economic situation, due to our limited
resources, is such that we can hold out only a few more years.’

“Comment: As to the attitude taken here—the version in my
statement, Page 2, Lines 21 to 26, is absolutely correct. Above
all the sentence, ‘We have nothing...’”

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, does it not come to this? There are two or three versions of this particular speech and this admiral is saying that his version is correct. That is all it comes to. I mean, he does not think the other versions are correct. Well, the Tribunal will no doubt have to compare the three versions and compare it with this affidavit. But what is the purpose or use of reading it to us at this stage I do not know.

DR. SIEMERS: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you very much. Then I ask that the Tribunal take judicial notice of the further statements, as set out therein. I should like to refer only to the fact that Generaladmiral Böhm expressly asserts and declares under oath that the sentence which has been quoted several times: “I am afraid that at the last moment some dirty dog will submit to me a plan for mediation”——was not uttered by Hitler.

Referring to Document 1014-PS, I should like to read a sentence which has been brought up by the Prosecution six or seven times:

“The destruction of Poland is in the foreground and the aim is
the elimination of Polish vitality, not the reaching of a
certain line.”

In this connection Böhm says:

“There was never any talk of destroying Poland or of eliminating
the vitality of the Polish people. What was discussed was the
breaking of the military forces.”

And I should like the Tribunal to take judicial notice of these very carefully set down statements for it seems to me that this is important in assessing the evidence value of the documents presented by the Prosecution.

Then under “III” Generaladmiral Böhm describes that period during which he was commanding admiral in Norway. I should like the Tribunal to take judicial notice of this. This statement chiefly concerns the struggle carried on by Raeder and Böhm against Terboven, against the German civilian administration, and the attempts to make peace with Norway.

Mr. President, after many weeks the interrogatory of Albrecht has reached me in its final form. I sent it to the Translation Division several days ago and have not yet received the translation. This interrogatory has been approved and I put it in as Exhibit Number Raeder-128. I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of this interrogatory.

I should like to mention that Generaladmiral Albrecht was for many years one of Raeder’s closest co-workers. He resigned in October 1939. He knows the attitude taken by Raeder and he knows the High Command of the Navy before 1933 and up to 1938. He, too, confirms the fact that Raeder constantly warned Hitler of complications, and that Hitler always stated, “I have matters under control and I will not let it come to war.”

As regards all the other points, I ask, Mr. President, that the Tribunal take judicial notice of these.

Then I should like to refer to the following: One interrogatory by Generaladmiral Schulze has not yet come to hand. My efforts to obtain this interrogatory date back to March 1946. I have given his address. The witness is in retirement and lives in Hamburg-Blankenese. Unfortunately until now the interrogatory has not arrived in Hamburg. I should be very grateful to the Tribunal if it would give me permission to submit this interrogatory at a later date, as I myself have no means of expediting it. I do not know when it will come in, as in the meantime it has been sent to Washington for reasons I do not understand, but I certainly hope that it will be returned at some future date. Finally, Mr. President...

THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me. What do you mean by it having been sent to Washington? Did you say Washington?

DR. SIEMERS: I was informed by the General Secretary that this interrogatory had been sent to Washington in order to locate the witness there. But the witness resides in Hamburg-Blankenese. I am sorry that I have no means of using my influence even though I have been trying for 3 months.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, no doubt the General Secretary is making every effort to have the witness found. If he is found, then—what are the dates? You say that 3 months ago you submitted this interrogatory? Was it sent to Hamburg or where was it sent?

DR. SIEMERS: I have...

THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Dr. Siemers, you ought to know. You have been in touch all these 3 months with the General Secretary and you are stating that he sent it to Washington. You ought to know. Have you given him any address in Hamburg? What is your complaint?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, you have misunderstood. I was not complaining. I was just stating the facts in order to show why the interrogatory is not here, and I ask that when the interrogatory arrives I may be permitted to submit it then, though by that time the evidence...

THE PRESIDENT: I know you say that, but the Tribunal wants to know where the interrogatory was first sent and why it was sent to Washington, and why it was not sent to Hamburg and what you know about the fact—the alleged fact—that the person who was to make the interrogatory was at Hamburg?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I am from Hamburg myself and last November I talked with the witness, and I gave his address when I put in my first application to the General Secretary. Perhaps some misunderstanding arose with the other offices which transmitted the interrogatory. Perhaps they looked for a witness by the name of Schulze in some other place. The name of the Generaladmiral is Otto Schulze and it is quite possible that they looked up someone else with this rather common name.

The only answer I received was that the witness was being looked for, to which I replied that it was not necessary to look for the witness.

MR. DODD: I think the Tribunal might be interested in knowing that Dr. Siemers himself returned from Hamburg a few days ago, and I think he has been there two or three times since he asked for this interrogatory. Now, if he knows where this witness is, all he had to do while he was up there was to go to a Military Government officer, submit his questions, get them answered, and bring them back; and I think it is a little bit unfair to blame the General Secretary under these circumstances.

DR. SIEMERS: I regret very much that Mr. Dodd considers it necessary to reproach me with unfairness. I was told that an interrogatory could not be given to the witness by me. The interrogatory for Admiral Albrecht I brought back with me from Hamburg at the request of the General Secretary because the formula of the oath had been omitted. In a case of this kind I consider it quite natural that I should co-operate with the General Secretary. However, I have submitted this interrogatory and I cannot understand how Mr. Dodd could blame me if I have not brought the interrogatory back with me.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, this seems to me a waste of time. We had better get a report from the General Secretary.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I believe that I still have not been understood. I am not accusing anyone. I am just asking for permission to submit my interrogatory subsequently.

THE PRESIDENT: Well. We will consider that. We will not make any decision until we have heard a report from the General Secretary upon the circumstances.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, then I should like to point out that two of my applications were granted, which were not carried out completely. One was the application concerning the files of the British Admiralty containing the Allies’ plans regarding Scandinavia and Finland. Purely as a matter of form I should like to say that the answer from the Foreign Office, which is known to the Tribunal, is available, and the Tribunal had approved the submission of these files, but the request was turned down by the Foreign Office. As this matter has not been dealt with before I should like it to be made absolutely clear.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, I think, has the communication from the Foreign Office.

DR. SIEMERS: But I did not submit it, Mr. President. Therefore, I did not know under what number, what exhibit number it can be found in the files of the Tribunal. Would it be possible, Mr. President...

THE PRESIDENT: You can give it a number, certainly. Give it whatever number you think right. What is the number you want?

DR. SIEMERS: May I submit this document as Exhibit Number Raeder-130 either this afternoon or at the latest tomorrow morning?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Then, Mr. President, I made the request that the first edition of Hitler’s book _Mein Kampf_ be placed at my disposal. In this case as well, I should like to point out that according to information received the General Secretary has made every effort, for which I am grateful, but he has not been successful in providing me with this first edition.

I should like to remind you of the fact that the edition used by the Prosecution is from the year 1933 and therefore it cannot be used as a basis for the argument put by the Prosecution concerning the period before 1933.

THE PRESIDENT: That is a matter of argument.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes indeed.

During my absence four documents were submitted by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe. As far as I was able to ascertain, these documents, which all come from Admiral Assmann, were submitted with the remark that Admiral Assmann belonged to the Staff of Grossadmiral Raeder. This fact was also mentioned several times in preceding records.

For the sake of order, I should like to clear up this error. Assmann was in the historical section and he was in no way concerned with the staff of Raeder. In this connection...

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got any evidence of the facts you are stating, or do the Prosecution accept them?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We accept, I am sure. My Lord, we have had it in evidence and we accept the fact that he was in the Naval Historical Section of the German Admiralty. My Lord, when I said “staff” I was speaking generally. I did not mean the Operations Staff.

THE PRESIDENT: Then we need not waste further time about that.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to refer to one point, Mr. President, concerning these four documents: D-879, D-881, D-892, and D-854. I hope that in this matter as well Sir David will agree with me. All the English translations bear the heading “Diary”...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is simply a point of how the compilation of Admiral Assmann should be described. I am quite prepared that it should be described as it is in the original.

THE PRESIDENT: Well...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Siemers objected to its being described as a “diary” and said that it should have been described as an index. My Lord, I do not mind what it is described as.

THE PRESIDENT: What does it matter? Let us call it an index then. Is that all your points?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, this is important insofar as here in this courtroom many “Tagebücher” have been submitted under the designation of a “diary,” and these were really entries made at the time.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David says that he will withdraw the word “diary” and you may call it anything else you like. Really, it is only a waste of our time to make this sort of technical point. Sir David agrees with you, and he is prepared to withdraw the word “diary.”

DR. SIEMERS: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well then, let us not say anything more about it.

DR. SIEMERS: I quite agree, Mr. President.

Mr. President, I do not wish to take up the time of the Tribunal with all the other and very numerous errors in translation. My final speech will show how important this point was in connection with the Assmann document. As suggested by the Tribunal I have brought the other errors in translation to the notice of the General Secretary only.

THE PRESIDENT: If there are any errors in translation, that matter can be taken up through the General Secretary with the Translation Division.

Dr. Siemers, it is very improper for counsel in your position to make statements of that sort for which you have no proof at all. You know perfectly well that when there have been any alleged mistranslations, the matter has always been referred through the General Secretary to the Translation Division and then they have been corrected; and for you to get up at this stage of the Trial and say that there are many mistranslations, without any proof of it at all, simply upon your own word, is a most improper thing for counsel to do, and that is the view of the Tribunal.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I beg to apologize, but I think I probably did not express myself correctly. I am not making an accusation, but with so many documents it is not surprising that these errors did occur. I myself make mistakes. I am sorry if my remarks should have been misunderstood.

THE PRESIDENT: Everybody makes mistakes, and everybody is capable of having different opinions as to translations, but you and every other member of the defendants’ counsel know that those mistakes, if they are mistakes, will be corrected, if it is possible, and they know the way that it can be done, and, therefore, as I said before, it is very improper for you to get up and allege that there are a lot of mistranslations. I do not want to hear anything more about it.

The Tribunal will adjourn.

[_A recess was taken._]

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, have you any documents that you wish to offer in evidence?

DR. NELTE: Mr. President, with a letter dated 1 July 1946, I put in three affidavits, after having submitted them previously to the Prosecution. Those three documents will become Documents Keitel-23, Keitel-24, and Keitel-25. I beg the Tribunal to receive them, since the Prosecution, as Sir David has told me, does not object to their being offered in evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: And they are at present being translated, or have they been translated?

DR. NELTE: They are in the process of being translated. I have merely submitted the originals to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well then, we will receive them in evidence and consider them.

DR. NELTE: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann?

DR. KURT KAUFFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President, I have a few interrogatories which have been granted to me by the Tribunal. I have the originals here with me; they have been numbered, and I should like to submit them. The Translation Division has informed me that the translations are not yet at the disposal of the Tribunal, but I assume they will be in the hands of the Tribunal in the next few days.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I should like to state, in a few short sentences, what the contents of the documents are, if the Tribunal wishes me to do so.

There are three documents which refer to the same subject: The testimony given by the President of the Red Cross at Geneva, Professor Burckhardt; the testimony given by Dr. Bachmann, who was the delegate of the Red Cross; and then there is Dr. Meyer’s testimony, and he too was an official representative of the Red Cross.

In these documents these witnesses deal with the discussions during March and April 1945 which they had with the Defendant Kaltenbrunner. They also show that agreements were reached on the strength of these discussions which made it possible for thousands of French, Belgian, and Dutch women and children to be returned to their home countries. Prisoners of war were also released under these agreements and internees from concentration camps were allowed to return. Another result was that Kaltenbrunner gave permission to visit the Jewish camp at Theresienstadt and took pains that other camps received medical supplies, food, _et cetera_.

All that is contained in detail in these three documents.

THE PRESIDENT: What numbers are you giving them?

DR. KAUFFMANN: The Professor Burckhardt document will be Number Kaltenbrunner-3; Dr. Meyer and Dr. Bachmann, Numbers Kaltenbrunner-4 and 5.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. KAUFFMANN: A further document is the interrogatory supplied by the former Gauleiter in Upper Austria, Eigruber. That is Exhibit Number Kaltenbrunner-6. Here again I should like to draw attention to one point. Among other things, this witness states that the concentration camp at Mauthausen was not set up by Kaltenbrunner, as has been alleged by the Prosecution and that he was not responsible for the life there or the presence of the internees at the camp. That is stated here in detail and I do not propose to read it.

The next document is the interrogatory of Freiherr von Eberstein, which is Number Kaltenbrunner-7. Again, I shall not read from it, but perhaps I may say, in just one sentence, that this witness is testifying that he knows that the concentration camp at Dachau and the two auxiliary camps belonging to Dachau were not, as has been alleged by the Prosecution, to be exterminated during the last months or weeks of the war, but that such a plan had been contemplated exclusively by the Gauleiter of Munich, Giessler.

Then there is a further interrogatory, which is the testimony of the witness Wanneck. That will be Exhibit Kaltenbrunner-8. I should like to draw the attention of the Tribunal particularly to this document. It is a lengthy document, and I shall not read from it. However, I believe I can say that this man was particularly well acquainted with the defendant and the whole of his official activities in the course of many years. This witness held for years a leading position in the Foreign Intelligence Service. He knows Kaltenbrunner’s attitude regarding the executive and he confirms the fact that Kaltenbrunner agreed with Himmler at the time, that he, Himmler, would retain the executive powers while Kaltenbrunner would work mostly in the sector of the Intelligence Service as a whole.

Finally, Mr. President, there are two documents which have not yet been discussed. Therefore, first of all, the Tribunal would have to decide as to the relevancy of the documents, and as to whether I shall be entitled to submit the documents. They are two short letters which I have received.

One is a letter from the mayor of the town of Dachau, dated 4 April 1946. The Tribunal may possibly remember that during the taking of evidence by the Prosecution it was frequently mentioned that the population in the vicinity had knowledge of the abuses. This man, who has now been instated by the American authorities, confirms his own experiences. In my opinion they do not bear out the thesis of the Prosecution.

Immediately connected with this is the second letter, which is from the well-known Pastor Niemöller, and which is dated 17 April 1946. Niemöller had spent some time in Dachau.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, would it not be best if we were heard on the first affidavit before the Niemöller affidavit is taken up?

We have objected to this affidavit by the mayor of Dachau for the reason that it is simply a letter. We have had no opportunity to file any cross-questions or to ask any questions of the man at all. These letters come in here. If we are going to submit all the letters that come in—we have bales of them, actually.

We do not like to object on purely technical grounds, if there is anything here that would really be helpful to the Tribunal. On the other hand, we do not feel that we should deny ourselves the opportunity to make clear the entire story by cross-questions of some kind.

THE PRESIDENT: That is with reference to Schwalber?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I did not quite understand what you said, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: What Mr. Dodd said was that they objected to this document from Schwalber because they have not had any opportunity to put any questions to him, either by way of having him called as a witness or by a cross-interrogatory. Therefore, they object to the introduction of the document in its present form.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, I understand. I know this is somewhat problematical, but the Tribunal will be able to assess the evidence value of the letters according to their own opinion. Perhaps I may submit these two short documents to the Tribunal. So far as I know, the Prosecution is acquainted with these two documents, because they have been in the Translation Division, and some time ago a representative of the Prosecution told me that very probably objections would be raised. That was why, at the beginning, I told the Tribunal it would first have to decide as to the relevancy of the documents.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Kauffmann, the best way will be for the Tribunal to read the document and to consider it. We will do that.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you.

MR. DODD: I should also like to indicate to the Tribunal that we take the same position with respect to the Niemöller letter.

THE PRESIDENT: You consider them both, then? You are objecting also to the Niemöller letter?

MR. DODD: Yes, on the same grounds.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.

DR. OTTO PANNENBECKER (Counsel for Defendant Frick): Mr. President, the reply to the Messersmith interrogatory has not yet been submitted. The reply has been received in the meantime, and has been translated, too. I believe, however, that the Tribunal has probably not yet received it.

THE PRESIDENT: Can you offer it in evidence and give it a number?

DR. PANNENBECKER: Yes, Sir; I was going to. But I did not expect that it would come up today, and I have not the number which I shall give to the exhibit. May I be permitted to furnish the number later? Yes—I have it here, Mr. President, and I shall now submit it as Exhibit Number Frick-14. This is the reply to an interrogatory. The replies are in the same form as those which Mr. Messersmith gave in the interrogatories concerning other defendants. I shall refer to this interrogatory in detail during my final speech. Therefore I need not read it now.

Then there is still one reply outstanding in an interrogatory of Konrad, and I beg to be permitted to submit it as soon as I receive it.

THE PRESIDENT: That has been granted, has it? And it is now before the witness?

DR. PANNENBECKER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. PANNENBECKER: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius.

DR. ROBERT SERVATIUS (Counsel for Defendant Sauckel): Mr. President, several interrogatories have still to be submitted. First of all, I submit Exhibit Number Sauckel-15 to the Tribunal. That is a Darré interrogatory.

THE PRESIDENT: Whose interrogatory was that? Whose interrogatory?

DR. SERVATIUS: Darré, the Minister for Food and Agriculture. This interrogatory deals with matters which have in part already come up at this Trial. I should like to draw your attention to a few points. There is the question of what was Sauckel’s general attitude, particularly toward Himmler’s views; and the witness stresses the fact there was considerable controversy between Himmler and Sauckel in this respect. He mentions one particular instance which he himself witnessed. He speaks about a factory in Thuringia which was directly under Sauckel’s control and says that the workers there were so free that they hired themselves out to farmers during the day, which was rather too much of a good thing. He then talked about a clash between Sauckel and Himmler in the presence of the Führer about the question of treatment, and he says that Himmler stated, “I am subordinate to the Führer only, and for my official business I am under the Reich Marshal; and I do not have to justify myself to you.”

Then there is an interrogatory from Minister of Labor Seldte, which has been allowed by the Tribunal and which I shall submit as Exhibit Number Sauckel-16. I should like to bring out just a few points. The witness talks about Sauckel’s functions and the functions of Dr. Ley, and he says that Sauckel carried out the functions of the state while Ley looked after the social welfare and social supervision.

Then he goes on to talk about inspections and control, and he says that the offices for accident insurance, health, and factory inspection were in existence before and had continued to function under the responsibility of the Ministry of Labor.

Then comes the interrogatory of Dr. Voss, which I submit as Exhibit Number Sauckel-17. I shall submit the original later. I am afraid I cannot find it at the moment. This doctor was medical officer in a camp, and he speaks of the conditions in the camps, particularly after air attacks, and about the activities and care of the Labor Front. He not only deals with the camps in which he was working but he knows a great deal generally about conditions in other camps.

His statement is in contradiction to the testimony given by Dr. Jäger. In the same way the following document, which I shall submit as Exhibit Number Sauckel-18 and which comes from Dr. Ludwig Scharmann, although dealing with another sector, contains similar statements, too, which are also in direct contrast to the testimony given by Dr. Jäger.

That completes the interrogatories which have been granted me. Now I have still another number of documents for which I have applied, but on which a decision has not yet been given. I do not know whether I should now submit them to the Tribunal. They are mostly concerned with laws and decrees and I would like to submit them in addition to what I have already submitted.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Servatius, the Tribunal would like you to submit them now, because the Tribunal wishes to deal with the evidence on behalf of the Defense finally, now and today.

DR. SERVATIUS: There is a decree by Sauckel dealing with the return of sick foreign workers to their homes. It shows that workers who had fallen sick were sent back and that Red Cross employees had to accompany them. The actual decree is in the official collection of laws and decrees which has already been submitted. I shall ascertain my exhibit number presently. It will be Number Sauckel-99 in the supplementary document book.

Then there is Document Number Sauckel-100, which comes from the _Reichsarbeitsblatt_, 1943, which has already been offered in evidence, too. This deals with the investigation of sanitary measures in camps, and it concerns the accusations which have been made with reference to these accommodation problems.

Then there is Document Number Sauckel-101 which is a memorandum for French prisoners of war on leave regarding their improved status under the so-called “transformation.” I shall submit it and give the exhibit a number. For the moment it is Document Number Sauckel-101.

Then come Documents 102 and 103. Both are laws contained in the official _Reichsgesetzblatt_. They are “German Instructions Regarding Compulsory Labor Service.” It is the Emergency Services Order which I submit as Document Number Sauckel-102. Then there is the Compulsory Labor Decree which will be Document Number Sauckel-103, in the supplement.

Then I find that Document 4006-PS contains a number of important regulations, but I am told that the Prosecution is going to read them, and therefore I assume that I need not do so.

Then I have received an affidavit from Count Spreti, who, from the beginning of the Eastern campaign, was active as a recruiting officer in the East. It deals with conditions, and it states particularly that Sauckel’s activity had brought about a basic change in the general attitude. It is short and I consider that it is of particular importance, because up to now no recruiting officer has been heard on the subject.

Then I was proposing to submit Document Number Sauckel-109, which will be a list...

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, with regard to that affidavit I am told, the Prosecution having not seen it at all, that that should be accepted with the same reservations as have been made in the previous cases.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly. Was that affidavit you spoke of by Count von Spreti, S-p-r-e-t-i?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, My Lord.

DR. SERVATIUS: Then I was going to submit a list of all of Sauckel’s decrees as Document Number Sauckel-109 which will give an idea of the great care he took of all kinds of matters. This list will give the titles only.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, you did not give a number to the affidavit of Count von Spreti.

DR. SERVATIUS: It will be given Number Sauckel-108 in my document book and then I shall give it an exhibit number later when I submit the numbers for the other documents.

Then as Document Number Sauckel-110, 111, and 112...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, are you not giving us exhibit numbers now?

DR. SERVATIUS: I cannot do so at the moment because I have not got the originals with me and part of these are official records which have been submitted already.

THE PRESIDENT: But you see in the case of the Defendant Sauckel, as in the case of every other defendant, the exhibits put in on his behalf, the exhibits offered in evidence on his behalf should have a consecutive series of numbers and that is a consecutive series which is settled by the counsel himself who offers the documents in evidence. It does not depend upon whether he has the original before him.

DR. SERVATIUS: In that case I can give them exhibit numbers. Document Number-108 will be Exhibit Number Sauckel-18.

THE PRESIDENT: Which is that?

DR. SERVATIUS: Exhibit Number 18.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps the most convenient way would be if you would carefully go through your exhibits and give the list to the General Secretary, giving the exact exhibit number of each document.

DR. SERVATIUS: Very well.

Then Documents Number 110, 111, and 112, contained in the supplement, are three laws which deal with the position of the Reich Defense Commissioner who was mentioned in connection with the allocation of labor. The Reich Defense Commissioner is, of course, the Gauleiter who was mentioned during the case of Speer in connection with the armament industry. These are merely the basic laws, so as to have them at hand.

After the case of Speer had been heard, I received an affidavit from the witnesses Hildebrandt and Stothfang, who had been examined here in Court. It deals with the question of how far Sauckel had to obey Speer’s instructions and what the relations were between the two offices. The Prosecution have not yet defined their attitude and I think perhaps it would be best if...

MR. DODD: We will be glad to have this affidavit submitted, Mr. President. We have no objection whatever to it. As a matter of fact, if it was not submitted by Dr. Servatius, we intended to offer it ourselves.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Of course the Tribunal thinks it is irregular, really, that a witness who has been called and has given evidence, has been cross-examined—has been re-examined and cross-examined by any other counsel for the defense who want to—that he should be entitled to give any other evidence, but if you are both agreed that it is convenient in this case, as a special circumstance, we will admit it.

MR. DODD: I think—Mr. President, I, of course, recognize at once the Court’s observation about submitting affidavits of witnesses who have been before the Tribunal. What happened here was that some rather material matters were not gone into when he was here, and I think the Tribunal will find them quite helpful in clearing up the situation about Sauckel and Speer with respect to their relative and individual responsibilities for this slave labor program. Other than that, I, of course, would not urge it at all. I think the Court will find it helpful.

DR. HANS FLÄCHSNER (Counsel for Defendant Speer): Mr. President, I would not make a formal objection against the admission of such an affidavit if I were not convinced, in this particular case, that with the admission of such an affidavit a series of questions will be opened up which will, in turn, necessitate further arguments. I saw the wording of this affidavit only this morning and I am convinced that at least further investigation of its contents will be necessary. I believe, therefore, that if this Trial is to be shortened, in the case before us as well, one ought not to depart from the general rule that affidavits from witnesses who have already appeared before the Tribunal should not be permitted. In this particular case, where there are references to the publication with which the affidavit deals, the case could be made quite clear if these publications were submitted and, therefore, the affidavit is not at all necessary.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to say anything in answer to that objection?

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, this affidavit is, in fact, a supplementation of the instructions contained in Document 4006, which the Prosecution is proposing to submit; but I did not know that this was proposed. What we are actually concerned with here is a question which was opened up by Speer’s examination, namely, the significance of Speer’s Ministry as compared to Sauckel’s office: Who, of the two, was the more powerful? Who could give orders? Who had to obey? I think the documents will make that clear.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you and the Prosecution had the opportunity of cross-examining Speer when he was in the witness box and you could then have elucidated anything you wanted to elucidate at that time.

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, only the circumstances were not known to me at that moment.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I do not wish to press this at all, and if the Tribunal has any doubt about it at all I will withdraw my position. I thought it might be helpful, but it really is not important and if there is any question I think it is better we let it go.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal think it is irregular to introduce new evidence by affidavits from a person who has already been called as a witness, and in view of the objection on behalf of the Defendant Speer, they cannot accept the evidence.

DR. SERVATIUS: In that case, I will withdraw it. That completes my statement of evidence. The only thing that is still outstanding is the witness Letsch’s interrogatory, which has been granted, and the interrogatory of the witness Bichenbach. I have no hope of still receiving them.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer?

DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER (Counsel for Defendant Seyss-Inquart): Mr. President, I have four documents which I beg to submit and which I have received through the General Secretary. The Tribunal has allowed them and the Prosecution know of them. Unfortunately, however, the translations have not yet been completed.

The first document contains questions and answers from Director Dirk Hannema, director of the Bovymans Museum in Rotterdam, about the alleged plundering of art treasures. I shall give this document the Number Seyss-Inquart-108. I shall submit the English text and the Dutch original.

The next document is an edition of the newspaper _Nieuwe Rotterdamsche Courant_, dated 17 May 1942, of which I have the original and a German translation. It contains a warning regarding the shooting of hostages. This document I shall submit in the original under Document Number Seyss-Inquart-109.

The following document is also an edition of the same newspaper; it is dated 10 August 1942, and it also contains an announcement regarding the shooting of hostages. In connection with this document I should like to draw your attention to the fact that this announcement was the result of an order from the Military Commander in Holland, General Christiansen, and that the Senior SS and Police Leader, Rauter, signed it. I shall give it Document Number Seyss-Inquart-110.

The next document I received only yesterday from the General Secretariat, and it is a copy of the interrogatory of General of the Cavalry Von Kleffel. From 27 March 1945 until 8 April 1945, he was Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the 25th Army in Holland. He confirms that Reich Commissioner Seyss-Inquart, in a letter to the Führer, had requested that the fighting should cease, in order to save the country from being heavily damaged and also to prevent a famine. This document is Number Seyss-Inquart-111 in my document book. This document had been allowed by the Tribunal. I beg, therefore, that it be received in evidence.