Chapter L: P. LANE: It was said that the fold symbol was now almost never used

to indicate the fold. In the Boston Public Library we use it to indicate the fold for foreign books and old books. We also use the same symbol in the case of American books to indicate size. There is considerable dissatisfaction with the practice and some of the cataloging staff would prefer to give the size in inches. How would that apply to books not in the condition in which they were published? Also I should like to ask whether it might not be possible where the fold is easily distinguished, to give both size and fold.

Mr. HANSON: That is really the practice of the Prussian university libraries.

Miss BROWNE: My thesis for defending the size letter is that 25 years ago the A. L. A. thrashed this matter all over and decided on the size symbol. Mr. Bowker has used that letter symbol from that time on. Miss Kroeger found a very large proportion of the libraries using the letter symbol; library classes are teaching the letter symbol. My chief objection to the fold symbol is that we are making one sign serve two uses, which I think is always bad.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: If the Library Association 25 years ago decided to use one symbol or another symbol, that is no reason why we should do so now. The objection to using the fold symbol to denote size is, among other things, as Mr. Lane suggested, that you need it in case of old books to tell the fold. The only rational designation of size is by centimeters, or inches, if you prefer. There is of course one difficulty in using accurate measurement in centimeters, if you have a book that has been bound and cut down. But that can be overcome, I think, by letting the measurement mean letterpress and nothing else. In ordinary cases you know about how wide a margin is if you know the side of the letterpress; it is always a certain proportion. You don't need the size to tell on what shelf the book is put, because that is given by the call number. So in order to find a book you don't need the size notation; you need it to see what size the page is. It is a purely bibliographical notation.

[Mr. Hanson here read rule for size notation for books "notable for age or rarity."]

Mr. BOWKER: In the days of our youth, in fact almost as soon as we were born, this Association, as Miss Browne has indicated, adopted the letter symbol; and it seems to me that the reasons that operated for the choice of the letter symbol are stronger now than they were then, because the symbol has in the meantime come into quite general, if not universal use. The Association at that time had a phrase to indicate size. The objections to the old fold symbol still remain, and I think one very strong one has been stated. It is not only that the numerical system of 8vo, 12mo, etc., has ceased to mean what it originally meant and is confused with measurement size, but that it is used in England and America with utterly different meanings; and that difference continues. That is to say, the English use crown octavo and post octavo and two or three names for 12mo, in such a way as to cross our use of the word 8vo and 12mo and make a double confusion. I feel very strongly, for one, that the method of breaking over from the octavo and duodecimo, etc., the figure designation, into a definite and accurate letter designation was a very ingenious and very useful move. It is difficult to get general adoption of a modification of that sort, but the adoption has been quite general, and to me it would seem a very great retrogression to go back to the old figure symbol; we had better adhere to the A. L. A. notation of 25 years ago and custom since, and give a symbol which is in no sense confusing or misleading, following that, if you please, with the actual size measurement in centimeters.

Mr. RODEN: I understand, of course, that we cannot legislate upon the subject, and possibly our discussion will not influence the legislature. At the same time, as a representative of a popular library in the middle west, I cannot help but regard with apprehension the small but insidious innovations which these rules seem to display. Mr. Josephson has said measurement is a bibliographical detail; in popular libraries it is a gratuitous detail. It could very well, as the chairman suggests, be placed at the end. In the public I am dealing with I should say the old fold symbol is most commonly used and means most. It occurs to me that a combination of fold and letter symbols might be used. I suggest this as a little concession to the popular library, and it is the first I have heard this afternoon.

Mr. JONES: An objection to exact measurement is, that so far as the greater mass of books that we have to deal with are concerned, it is not very important whether they are a few centimeters larger or smaller, and such books are often rebound in such a way that if we have an exact description our copies do not correspond. I agree with Mr. Bowker that the symbols adopted by the A. L. A. 25 years ago are sufficiently well known by people who are handling books to be recommended as a system to be adopted.

Miss KROEGER: I have been teaching in the library school according to A. L. A. measurements, yet it has always seemed to me somewhat absurd. None of the publishers have adopted it; I suppose the newer libraries have. The replies received to the questions sent to the various libraries last June, except for the newer libraries, indicate that the majority are using the fold symbol, and they would like to know why, if the letter symbol is such a good thing, the publishers are still marking their books 8vo, 12mo and 4to. The fold symbol means more to the mass of the people than do the letters O or D.

Mr. BOWKER: If I remember correctly the London _Bookseller_ is giving the exact size and measurement now.

Mr. HARRIS: Many literary and critical journals give the size of all books recorded in inches.

Mr. BOWKER: The Publishing Board is extremely interested in getting the feeling of those here on the question. I want to suggest that when it comes to the rising vote or show of hands, we take a somewhat complicated vote: those who are in favor of the present A. L. A. letter; those in favor of returning to the fold (I mean not in the usual sense); those in favor of exact measurement in centimeters; those in favor of a combination of letter symbol and centimeter; and those in favor of the fold symbol and centimeter. The board wants all the information it can get.

CHAIRMAN: I will ask Mr. Bowker to state the first proposition.

Mr. BOWKER: Those in favor of the letter symbol, the present A. L. A. method, please rise. Twenty-four rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those in favor of returning to the fold symbol, the 8vo, 12mo and 4to please rise. Ten rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who prefer a designation of actual measurement, please rise--with the understanding that those voting for this will then vote their preference as to either inches or centimeters. Seventeen rose.

CHAIRMAN: Your next proposition, Mr. Bowker.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who would prefer centimeters if exact measurement should be adopted, please rise. Thirty-two rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Now those who would prefer inches if an exact measurement were adopted. Three rose.

CHAIRMAN: As many as are in favor of the exact measurement coupled with the A. L. A. symbol, in case there is to be a combination--letter and exact size--please rise. Thirty-two rose.

CHAIRMAN: Now those who would prefer the combination of exact size with figure symbol. Sixteen rose.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: We might have another vote on whether the size should mean letterpress or book.

CHAIRMAN: Before this is done I want to call attention to the effect of binding after cataloging. If this scheme is going to take in foreign books, and you are going to get cards promptly, a large share of the books will be cataloged before they are bound. If a good binder does his work conscientiously and as it should be done, if you give the page you will have a more satisfactory measurement.

Mr. HANSON: I have looked into this question recently, and I find, where libraries do measure in centimeters they measure the paper. If the book is bound they measure the outside cover, for the reason that when the unbound book is trimmed down for binding what is lost is regained in the binding. I have found no instance yet where the practice that is advocated by yourself, the measurement of the letterpress, is followed in actual work.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: Let all those who want an exact measurement of the letterpress please rise. Two rose.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: Now those who want size to mean the outside of the book. Fifty-five rose.

Mr. BOWKER: I think it might clarify things if we take the vote of those who favor the use of the symbol alone as against those who favor the use of the symbol and exact measurement in centimeters.

CHAIRMAN: Those who favor the use of the symbol alone as against the combination of symbol with measurement please rise. Twenty-three rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who favor combination of symbol with exact measurement, please rise. Fifteen rose.

Mr. BOWKER: If there is no other business I wish to move the very cordial appreciation of the Catalog Section of the admirable report which has been presented in such detail by the advisory committee of the Publishing Board. _Voted._

Mr. BOWKER: Mr. Hanson, as chairman of the committee, I have great pleasure in conveying to you and to your associates this appreciation, which I know is most thorough on the part of all here.

I would also like to move a vote of thanks to the chairman for his admirable presiding during the session. _Voted._