Chapter XIX: Book 3: of the document book for the Defendant Hess there are also a (15)

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And in May 1933, after you made application, you joined the SS in the not too high rank of Standartenführer, didn’t you?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that could be.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you became an Oberführer only on the 20th of April 1935, a Brigadeführer on 18 June 1935, and Gruppenführer on the 13th of September 1936—that was after you became an ambassador—and Obergruppenführer on the 20th of April 1940. Before you were made an ambassador you had been in the SS for 3 years and you had received promotion in the ordinary way, when you did your work with the SS, isn’t that so?

VON RIBBENTROP: Without ever taking any steps or doing anything myself in the SS, yes, that is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just look. It is Document D-744(a), Exhibit GB-294. The correspondence is 744(b). You may take it; you need not go through it in detail. That is your application, with all the particulars. I just want to ask you one or two things about it. You asked to join, did you not, the “Totenkopf,” the Death’s-Head Division of the SS?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, that cannot be true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Don’t you remember getting a special Death’s-Head ring and dagger from Himmler for your services? Don’t you?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I do not remember. I never belonged to a Death’s-Head Division. You were just talking about a Death’s-Head Division, were you not?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: A Death’s-Head Division.

VON RIBBENTROP: No, that is not so. If it says so here, it is not true. But I think that I at one time received a so-called dagger, like all SS Führer. That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And the ring, too. Here is a letter dated the 5th of November 1935, to the Personnel Office of the Reichsführer SS: “In reply to your question I have to inform you that Brigadeführer Von Ribbentrop’s ring size is 17. Heil Hitler,” (signed) (Adjutant) “Thorner.” Do you remember getting that?

VON RIBBENTROP: I believe that everyone received such a ring but I do not remember precisely. No doubt it is true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you took, didn’t you, continuous interest in the SS from 1933 up to well into the war? I think your correspondence with Himmler goes on to well into 1941 or 1942.

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that is quite possible, that is certainly correct. Of course, we had a great deal to do with the SS in all fields. That is quite clear.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You had, and especially in the field of concentration camps, hadn’t you? Are you saying that you did not know that concentration camps were being carried on in an enormous scale?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I knew nothing about that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want you to look around for the moment. [_A map behind the witness box was uncovered._] That is an enlargement of the exhibits put in by the French Prosecution and these red spots are concentration camps. Now, I would just like you to look at it. We will see now one of the reasons for the location of your various residences. There, one north of Berlin, Sonnenburg. Do you see roughly where that is on that map?

VON RIBBENTROP: Sonnenburg is 1 hour’s auto ride from Berlin.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: North of Berlin?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, east of Berlin.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let us take another house. You are quite near it yourself, your schloss or tower at Fuschl. That is quite near the border; just over the border, and very near it, the group of camps which existed around Mauthausen. Do you see them, just above your right hand? Do you see the group of camps, the Mauthausen group?

VON RIBBENTROP: I should like to state on my oath that I heard the name of “Mauthausen” for the first time in Nuremberg.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let us take another of the places. You say you did not go there very often, but you used to...

VON RIBBENTROP: I believe I can make this much more brief for you. I can say that I heard of only two concentration camps until I came here—no it was three: Dachau, Oranienburg, and Theresienstadt. All the other names I heard here for the first time. The Theresienstadt camp was an old people’s home for Jews, and I believe was visited a few times by the International Red Cross. I never heard previously of all the other camps. I wish to make that quite clear.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you know that near Mauthausen there were 33 camps at various places, within a comparatively short distance, and 45 camps as to which the commandant did not give the names because there were so many of them, and in the 33 camps there were over 100,000 internees? Are you telling the Tribunal that in all your journeys to Fuschl you never heard of the camps at Mauthausen, where 100,000 people were shut up?

VON RIBBENTROP: That was entirely unknown to me, and I can produce dozens of witnesses who can testify to that. Dozens.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not care how many witnesses you produce. I ask you to look at that map again. You were a responsible minister in the Government of that country from the 4th of February 1938 till the defeat of Germany in May 1945, a period of 7 and a quarter years. Are you telling the Tribunal that anyone could be a responsible minister in that country where these hundreds of concentration camps existed and not know anything about them except two?

VON RIBBENTROP: It may be amazing but it is 100 percent true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I suggest to you that it is not only amazing, but that it is so incredible that it must be false. How could you be ignorant of these camps? Did you never see Himmler?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I never saw him about these things. Never. These things were kept absolutely secret and we heard here, for the very first time, what went on in them. Nobody knew anything about them. That may sound astounding but I am positively convinced that the gentlemen in the dock also knew nothing about all that was going on.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We will hear from them in their turn. Did you know that at Auschwitz alone...

VON RIBBENTROP: I heard the name Auschwitz here for the first time.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And the German official of Auschwitz has sworn an affidavit that 4 million people were put to death in the camp. Are you telling the Tribunal that that happened without your knowing anything about it?

VON RIBBENTROP: That was entirely unknown to me. I can state that here on my oath.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, there is one other subject, which I would like you to deal with; and here, fortunately, I am in the position of assisting your memory with some documents. It is a question of the partisans. I want you to look at a few documents, three documents, with regard to that.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you be able to finish tonight?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, I shall, if Your Lordship will allow me 5 minutes. That is what I have been trying to do.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Do you agree that you were in favor of the harshest treatment of people in the occupied countries?

VON RIBBENTROP: I did not understand. Could you repeat the question?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My question is, would it be a fair way of expressing your point of view to say that you were in favor of the harshest treatment of—I will put it first of all—of partisans?

VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know whether I ever expressed myself about the treatment of partisans. I do not recall having done so. In any case, I was against it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: All right, look at Document D-735, which will be Exhibit GB-295. That is a discussion between you and Count Ciano in the presence of Field Marshal Keitel and Marshal Cavallero in the Führer’s headquarters after breakfast on the 19th of December 1942. Now, if you will look at Page 2, you will see that there is a passage where Field Marshal Keitel told the Italian gentlemen that:

“The Croatian area was to be cleaned up by German and Italian
troops working in co-operation; and this while it was still
winter, in view of the strong British influence in this area.
The Führer explained that the Serbian conspirators were to be
burned out, and that no soft methods were to be used in doing
this. Field Marshal Keitel here interjected that every village
in which partisans were found had to be burned down. Continuing,
the Reich Foreign Minister declared that Roatta must not leave
the third zone, but must on the contrary advance, and this in
the closest collaboration with the German troops. In this
connection Field Marshal Keitel requested the Italian gentlemen
not to regard the utilization of Croatian troops to help in this
cleaning-up operation as a favoring of the Croatians. The Reich
Foreign Minister stated in this connection that the Poglavnik to
whom he had spoken very clearly, was 100 percent ready to come
to an agreement with Italy.”

Did that represent your view, that “the Serbian conspirators should be burned out”?

VON RIBBENTROP: Please?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did that represent your view, that “the Serbian conspirators should be burned out”?

VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know that expression. At any rate it is certain that they should have been locked up.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What it means is that their villages should be razed to the ground by fire.

VON RIBBENTROP: Where did I say that? I do not believe I said that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is the Führer’s point of view. Was it your point of view?

VON RIBBENTROP: The Führer took a very harsh attitude on these questions, and I know that occasionally harsh orders had to be issued also from other offices, including the military. It was a struggle for life and death. One should not forget that it was war.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you denying...

VON RIBBENTROP: At any rate, I do not see where I said anything about partisans, that is...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You say that is not your point of view? Is that what you are saying? That is not your point of view? Are you saying that it is not your point of view as to the way to treat them? Do not look at the next document. Tell me, is that your point of view?

VON RIBBENTROP: Please repeat the question that you want me to answer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you say that you were not in favor of harsh treatment of partisans?

VON RIBBENTROP: I am of the opinion that the partisans who attack the troops in the rear should be treated harshly. Yes, I am of that opinion, I believe everyone in the Army is of that opinion, and every politician.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Including women and children?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, by no means.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just look at that, if you deny this attitude to women and children. Look at the document, Number D-741.

My Lord, that will be Document D-741; this will be GB-296.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Will you look at the end of that. That is a conference between you and Ambassador Alfieri in Berlin on 21 February 1943. The last paragraph says:

“Continuing, the Reich Foreign Minister emphasized that the
conditions which Roatta’s policy had helped to produce in
Croatia were causing the Führer great concern. It was
appreciated on the German side that Roatta wished to spare
Italian blood, but it was believed that he was, as it were,
trying to drive out Satan with Beelzebub by this policy. These
partisan gangs had to be exterminated, including men, women, and
children, as their further existence imperiled the lives of
German and Italian men, women, and children.”

Do you still say that you did not want harsh treatment of women and children?

VON RIBBENTROP: What page is that on?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is on Pages 10 to 13. It is the last paragraph of my translation.

“These partisan gangs had to be exterminated, including men,
women and children, as their further existence imperiled the
lives of German and Italian men, women, and children.”

VON RIBBENTROP: If I did say that at any time, it must have been under great excitement. In any case, it does not correspond to my opinion which I have proved by my other acts during the war. I cannot say anything else at the moment.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will just show you one of your other acts, which will be the final one, if the Tribunal will bear with me. It is Document D-740, which will be GB-297. This is a memorandum of the conversation between the Reich Foreign Minister and Secretary of State Bastianini in the presence of Ambassadors Von Mackensen and Alfieri at Klessheim castle on the afternoon of the 8th of April 1943. If you will look at the beginning, I think you were discussing some strike in Italy. You say:

“The Reich Foreign Minister’s supposition that this strike had
perhaps been instigated by British agents was energetically
contested by Bastianini. There were Italian communists who were
still in Italy and who received their orders from Moscow. The
Reich Foreign Minister replied that, in such a case, only
merciless action would remedy.”

And then, after a statement with regard to the information, you say:

“He (the Reich Foreign Minister) did not want to discuss Italy
but rather the occupied territories, where it had been shown
that one would not get anywhere with soft methods or in the
endeavor to reach an agreement. The Reich Foreign Minister then
explained his views by a comparison between Denmark and Norway.
In Norway brutal measures had been taken which had evoked lively
protests, particularly in Sweden.”

And then you go on, and after a certain criticism of Dr. Best...

VON RIBBENTROP: I cannot find it; what page is it on, please?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The paragraph begins: “The Reich Foreign Minister’s supposition that this strike has perhaps been instigated by British agents...”

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, here it is.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, you see what I have put to you. You say:

“Only merciless action would be any good. In Norway brutal
measures had been taken.”

And at the beginning of the next paragraph:

“In Greece, too, brutal action would have to be taken if the
Greeks should sense a change for the better. He was of the
opinion that the demobilized Greek Army should be deported from
Greece with lightning speed, and that the Greeks should be shown
in an iron manner who was master in the country. Hard methods of
this kind were necessary if one was waging a war against Stalin,
which was not a gentleman’s war but a brutal war of
extermination.”

And then, with regard to France, after some statement about the French you say:

“Coming back to Greece, the Reich Foreign Minister once again
stressed the necessity of taking severe measures.”

And in the third line of the next paragraph:

“The Führer would have to take radical measures in the occupied
territories to mobilize the local labor potential in order that
the American armament potential might be equaled.”

Do you agree? Does that fairly express your view, that you wanted the most severe measures taken in occupied territories in order to mobilize labor to increase the Reich war potential?

VON RIBBENTROP: I can say the following in regard to this document. I know that at that time...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE; Well, you can say that, but you can answer my question first. Do these views express your view that...

VON RIBBENTROP: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: ...severe measures should be taken with foreign labor and with people in occupied territories. Does that document express your view?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, it does not.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then why did you say it? Why did you say these things?

VON RIBBENTROP: Because at that time, on the commission of the Führer, I had to keep the Italians’ noses to the grindstone, since there was complete chaos in some of the areas and the Italians always attempted to cause complete confusion in the rear areas of the German Army by some of the measures they took there. That is why I occasionally had to speak very harshly with the Italians. I recall that very distinctly. At that time the Italians were fighting together with the Chetniks partly against German troops; it was complete chaos there and for this reason I often used rather earnest and harsh language with the diplomats—perhaps an exaggerated language. But things actually looked quite different afterwards.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It was not a bit exaggeration, was it, in both Norway and Greece? You were taking the most brutal measures against the occupied countries.

VON RIBBENTROP: No, that is not so. We had absolutely nothing to say in Norway; we always tried to do things differently. And in Denmark we did everything to reduce these harsh measures, which were in part necessary, because of the paratroopers and so forth, and tried not to have them carried out.

I think it can be proved, from a number of other documents, that I and the Foreign Office always worked toward compromise in the various occupied countries. I do not believe that it is quite fair and correct to take only one or two such statements from the innumerable documents where occasionally I did use harsh words. It is certain that in the course of 6 years of war harsh language must be used from time to time. I may remind you that foreign statesmen also used harsh language regarding the treatment of Germany. But I am sure they did not mean it that way.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Tell me this: Every time today when you have been confronted with a document which attributes to you some harsh language or the opposite of what you have said here you say that on that occasion you were telling a diplomatic lie. Is that what it comes to? Thank you very much.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, do you have all these documents in evidence?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 2 April 1946 at 1000 hours._]

NINETY-SEVENTH DAY
Tuesday, 2 April 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Von Ribbentrop resumed the stand._]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, Your Lordship will have noticed that I did not deal with the question of Jews. That will now be taken up by my learned friend, M. Faure, of the French Delegation.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, may I say a few words on an important question? A map was discussed here yesterday, the map which is now visible in court. From that map the Prosecution conclude that a large number of concentration camps were distributed all over Germany. The defendants are contradicting this statement as energetically as possible. In the treatment of my case, the case of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, I hope to adduce evidence to the effect that only a very few of the red spots on this map are accurate. I wish to make this statement here and now, in order that the impression does not arise over again, in the subsequent cases, that this map is a correct one.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, this is only a reproduction of what has already been put in evidence.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, but I am at liberty to adduce proof to the contrary.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course you are, but it is not necessary for you to say so now. The fact that the evidence was put in by the Prosecution at an earlier date, of course, gives you every opportunity to answer it, but not to answer it at this moment.

M. FAURE: Defendant, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, you were the chief of the diplomatic personnel, were you not?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.

M. FAURE: The personnel followed your instructions, did they not?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.

M. FAURE: You declared yesterday that you were responsible for the acts of your subordinates?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.

M. FAURE: Would you tell me if Dr. Best, Plenipotentiary for Denmark, was a member of your Ministry?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.

M. FAURE: Dr. Best told you, did he not, that Hitler had given an order to assassinate Danes when there were acts of sabotage?

VON RIBBENTROP: May I ask you to repeat the question?

M. FAURE: According to the documents that have been produced before the Tribunal, Dr. Best saw you on 30 December 1943 and told you that Hitler had given the order to assassinate Danes when there were acts of sabotage in Denmark; is that so?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that was to be done against saboteurs. Hitler had ordered it.

M. FAURE: The order, according to the terms employed by Dr. Best in the document, was to “execute persons, terrorists or non-terrorists, without trial.” Can that not be considered as assassination?

VON RIBBENTROP: From the beginning I strongly opposed these measures, and so did Dr. Best. We went so far as to...

M. FAURE: Defendant, I am not trying to say that you were pleased with this state of affairs. I am merely asking you if you were informed thereof. Is that correct?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, the Führer wanted that. I do not know the details.

M. FAURE: But I am not asking for details.

VON RIBBENTROP: And what was ordered afterwards I do not know because, so far as I am aware, it did not go through us, but through another department.

M. FAURE: I note that you actually were informed of the Führer’s order given that day to permit assassination. You therefore considered it normal to belong to a government, the head of which was a murderer.

VON RIBBENTROP: No, the exact opposite is true here, the exact opposite...

M. FAURE: All right, all right, just answer, please.

VON RIBBENTROP: ...for I told him that I had taken my stand and that I held divergent views. The Führer was most dissatisfied with Dr. Best and had the matter handled through other channels, since Dr. Best was against it and so was I.

M. FAURE: I am merely asking you to answer my question very briefly. You can give details through your counsel later.

With regard to Denmark, there was action against the Jews in that country in order to deport them. Did you have anything to do with that?

VON RIBBENTROP: I cannot tell you anything about matters relating to the Jews in Denmark, since I know nothing.

M. FAURE: Did you never hear anything about it?

VON RIBBENTROP: I remember that I discussed the fact with Best, that this question was of no significance in Denmark. He was therefore not proposing to do anything in particular about the Jewish question there, and I declared myself in complete agreement with him.

M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown Document 2375-PS. This document has not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. I would like to submit it under French Exhibit Number RF-1503. I would like to read with you the second paragraph of this document. It is an affidavit from Mildner, a colonel of the police in Denmark.

“As commander, I was subordinate to the Reich Plenipotentiary,
Dr. Best. Since I was opposed to the persecution of the Jews, on
principle and for practical reasons, I asked Dr. Best to give me
the reasons for the measures that were ordered.

“Dr. Best declared to me that the Reich Foreign Minister,
Ribbentrop, obviously knew Hitler’s intention to exterminate the
Jews in Europe. He had furnished Hitler with a report about the
Jewish problem in Denmark and proposed to deport the Jews from
Denmark.

“Dr. Best declared furthermore that Ribbentrop was afraid of
being held responsible in case the Jews remained in Denmark.

“Dr. Best was now compelled to carry out the measures that were
proposed to Hitler by Ribbentrop.

“From the discussion with Dr. Best I gathered that he must have
had a discussion or a telephone conversation with Ribbentrop.”

You read that, did you not?

VON RIBBENTROP: What is written in this document is pure fantasy. It is not true.

M. FAURE: Very well; I ask then that you be shown Document 3688-PS, which I wish to deposit under the French Exhibit Number RF-1502. It is a note of 24 September 1942, signed by Luther, and addressed to his collaborators. I should like to read with you the first two paragraphs of that document.

“The Minister for Foreign Affairs has instructed me today by
telephone to expedite as much as possible the evacuation of the
Jews from different countries in Europe, since it is certain
that the Jews stir up feelings against us everywhere and must be
held responsible for acts of sabotage and outrages.

“After a short report on the evacuation of Jews at present in
process in Slovakia, Croatia, Romania, and the occupied
territories, the Minister for Foreign Affairs has ordered us now
to approach the Bulgarian, Hungarian, and Danish Governments
with the aim of getting the evacuation started in these
countries.”

I suggest that this second document confirms the first as regards your participation in the deportation of Jews in Denmark. Do you agree?

VON RIBBENTROP: It was the Führer’s plan, at the time, to deport the Jews from Europe to North Africa, and Madagascar was also mentioned in this connection. He ordered me to approach various governments with a view to encouraging the emigration of the Jews, if possible, and to remove all Jews from important government posts. I issued instructions to the Foreign Office accordingly, and, if I remember rightly, certain governments were approached several times to that effect. It was the question of the Jewish emigration to certain parts of North Africa; that is true. May I return to this affidavit? This sworn affidavit is pure fantasy of Colonel Mildner’s and is absolutely untrue.

M. FAURE: But, in any case, you admit...

VON RIBBENTROP: Dr. Best once discussed the Jewish question with me, and he said that as far as Denmark was concerned, the question was of no particular importance, since there were not many Jews left there. I explained to him that he would have to let matters take their own course there. That is the truth.

M. FAURE: You admit, nevertheless, that this document signed by Luther is correct, and that you did give the order to evacuate the Jews of Denmark? It is in the letter.

VON RIBBENTROP: No, not in Denmark. I do not even know this document of Luther’s. This is the first time I have seen it.

M. FAURE: Please, simply answer my questions; otherwise we shall waste a lot of time. In your opinion, both these documents are incorrect, you said so; let us pass on.

The German Embassy in Paris...

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I did not say so. That is incorrect. I said that I did not know Luther’s document. It is, however, true that the Führer gave me instructions to tell the Foreign Office to approach certain foreign governments with a view to solving the Jewish problem by removing the Jews from government positions and, wherever possible, to favor Jewish emigration.

M. FAURE: The German Embassy in Paris was under your orders, was it not?

VON RIBBENTROP: The German Embassy in Paris, that is, the Ambassador to the Vichy Government, naturally received orders from me.

M. FAURE: French Document RF-1061 has already been read to the Tribunal and in this document you defined the functions of Ambassador Abetz. It is 3614-PS.

In this document, which has already been read to you twice here, I would remind you that you commissioned Abetz to put in a safe place the public and private art treasures, particularly those belonging to Jews, on the basis of special instructions mentioned here. Abetz executed this mission by pillaging art collections in France.

VON RIBBENTROP: It is not true.

M. FAURE: I would ask that you be shown Document 3766-PS, which has not yet been produced, and to which I should like to give the French Exhibit Number RF-1505. I will go over merely a few lines of this document with you. It is a report from the military administration, which was distributed in 700 copies. It is entitled: “Report on the Removal of French Works of Art by the German Embassy and the Einsatzstab Rosenberg in France.”

If you will look at Page 3, you will see that the title in the margin is very significant: “German-Embassy: Attempt to remove paintings from the Louvre.”

Page 4, I will read the first sentence at the top of the page...

VON RIBBENTROP: When may I refer to the individual points? Not at all, or here and now?

M. FAURE: When I ask you a question you will answer. I am reading a passage to you:

“Ambassador Abetz, disregarding the prohibition pronounced by
the military administration, undertook to send to Germany a
series of works of art from the Louvre which had been placed in
safety.”

Were you informed of this?

VON RIBBENTROP: I declare that this is absolutely untrue. Not a single work of art was taken out of the Louvre by Ambassador Abetz. That would have been contrary to the express orders of the Führer, who had strictly forbidden it. The report is incorrect.

May I mention that on one occasion the French Government wanted to present me with a work of art from the Louvre, a painting by Boucher. I returned this picture to the Louvre. I do not possess anything, and the Foreign Office never even saw a single work of art, from the Louvre.

M. FAURE: You state that this report is incorrect?

THE PRESIDENT: What is this report you are putting to him?

M. FAURE: It is Document 3766-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know, but what is this document?

M. FAURE: It is a report from the German military administration, which is in the American documents in the PS series. The Tribunal received a general affidavit referring thereto.

THE PRESIDENT: Captured documents?

M. FAURE: Yes, captured documents. I indicate to the Tribunal that this captured report contains numerous other passages relating to the actions of Abetz, but as the defendant declares that the report is inexact as regards one of its passages, I shall not continue reading the document, in order to save time.

In addition...

VON RIBBENTROP: But this is not a captured document, not a report.

M. FAURE: Please answer my questions. We are not going to carry on this controversy. Your counsel can interrogate you later on.

DR. HORN: I must ask your permission to inquire into the nature of the documents submitted to the defendant. If it is stated that it is a captured report and then that it is not a captured report, the matters should be put right, here and immediately.

M. FAURE: I have already indicated that this document belongs to the PS series of captured documents. The Tribunal has a large number of such documents and I do not think that their authenticity will be disputed.

[_Turning to the defendant._] I would now like to ask you the following question:...

THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to ask further questions upon this document?

M. FAURE: No, Mr. President.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Apart from the questions of art treasures, Abetz also dealt with the question of the treatment of Jews in general, did he not?

VON RIBBENTROP: Abetz had no order. As far as I know he also had nothing to do with the Jewish question. This question was handled by other departments.

M. FAURE: Is it not true that in October 1940 Abetz communicated with you with a view to settling the situation of Jews of German or Austrian descent who were residing in France?

VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know; it did not interest me.

M. FAURE: I would like to show you Document EC-265, which I wish to submit as French Document RF-1504. It is a telegram from Abetz dated 1 October 1940. I will read merely the first and last sentences:

“The solution of the Jewish problem in the occupied territory of
France requires, besides other measures, a regulation as soon as
possible of the citizenship status of the Reich German Jews who
were living here at the beginning of the war...”

And the last sentence:

“The measures proposed above are to be considered as merely the
first step toward the solution of the entire problem. I reserve
the right to make other proposals.”

VON RIBBENTROP: May I have time to read the telegram first?

THE PRESIDENT: That is a little too fast.

M. FAURE: Yes.

VON RIBBENTROP: So far as I can see, this telegram apparently deals with the fact that Austrian and German Jews are to be repatriated to Austria and Germany from France. I do not know that. This is the first time I have seen this telegram, and I can give no information about it. It probably represents one of the routine measures dealt with by the Foreign Office in the course of the day’s work, but which were not submitted to me; and apart from that, these matters were individually dealt with by other departments, not by us.

M. FAURE: If you will look on the left-hand side of the telegram, you will see the distribution list. There were 19, including you, were there not? You were Number 2.

VON RIBBENTROP: I should like to inform the French prosecutor that every day four, five, six, or eight hundred such documents and telegrams reached my office, of which only 1 or 2 percent were submitted to me.

M. FAURE: Apart from the question...

VON RIBBENTROP: In any case I know nothing about this telegram.

M. FAURE: Apart from the question of Jews of Austrian and German origin, your colleagues and subordinates in the Embassy also dealt with the question of the French Jews. Now, before asking you this question, I should like to read out to you two sentences from a document which was submitted to the Tribunal as French Document Number RF-1207. It is a report from Dannecker, who was responsible for solving the Jewish problem in France. Dannecker concluded his report as follows:

“In this connection, I cannot speak of this matter without
mentioning the genuinely friendly support which our work
received from the German Ambassador Abetz, his representative,
the envoy Schleier, and SS Sturmbannführer and Counsellor of
Legation Dr. Zeitschel. I should like to add that the Embassy in
Paris has, on its own initiative, placed quite large sums at the
disposal of the branch in charge of the Jewish question, for the
financing of the Anti-Jewish Institute, and that it will
continue to do so in future.”

Therefore, according to these documents, Abetz, Schleier, and Zeitschel worked together.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Faure, we do not know where you are reading from.

M. FAURE: Mr. President, this document was not given to you in this folder because it has already been submitted to the Tribunal. I merely wished to read two sentences from it.

THE PRESIDENT: All right.

M. FAURE: It is evident therefore, from this document, that three officials of the German Embassy, Abetz, Schleier, and Zeitschel, collaborated with Dannecker in the settlement of Jewish affairs. That is shown by the document, is it not?

VON RIBBENTROP: Am I supposed to answer that? Is it a question?

M. FAURE: It is a question.

VON RIBBENTROP: To that question I must answer “naturally.” They certainly collaborated to some extent in the Jewish question in France; that is perfectly clear. But I can also add that the French Prosecution surely is informed that Ambassador Abetz was not only instructed by me, but also acted on his own initiative in always attempting to reach some kind of conciliatory settlement of this question. It goes without saying that the Embassy was involved, one way or the other, in this sphere of action. And it also goes without saying that I must assume responsibility for anything done by the gentlemen in the Embassy, and I should like to repeat that my instructions as well as the activities of Ambassador Abetz were always in the opposite direction. It is quite clear that the basic anti-Semitic tendency and policy of the German Government spread over all the departments and naturally, in any sphere—I mean, every Government office somehow or other came into contact with these matters. Our task in the Foreign Office—which could be proved in thousands of cases if the documents would be submitted—was to act as an intermediary in this sphere. I might say, we often had to do things in accordance with this anti-Semitic policy, but we always endeavored to prevent these measures and to reach some kind of conciliatory settlement. In fact, the German Embassy was not responsible for any anti-Semitic measures of any description in France.

M. FAURE: I would like to draw your attention to another document, Number RF-1210, a French document which is a second report from Dannecker of 22 February 1942, Page 3 of the document, Page 2 of the German text.

VON RIBBENTROP: I should like to say here and now that I do not even know who Dannecker is. Perhaps you can give me some information on that subject.

M. FAURE: I informed you that Dannecker was the person responsible for Jewish affairs in France. As a matter of fact, these documents were submitted a long time ago to the Tribunal and communicated to the Defense.

At Page 3 of the document, which is Page 2 of the German, there is a paragraph entitled, “Actions,” from which I read one sentence: “Up to the present, three large-scale operations have been undertaken against the Jews in Paris.”

Now, if you will look at the last page of the document, the last paragraph but one, we read as follows:

“Since the middle of 1941 there has been a conference every
Tuesday in which the following services participate:... I, II,
and III, military commands, administrative, police, and economic
sections; IV, German Embassy, Paris; V, Einsatzstab Westen of
Reichsleiter Rosenberg.

“The result of the conference is that—with very few exceptions
naturally called for by outsiders—the anti-Jewish policy is
being brought into one common line in the occupied territory.”

This document clearly shows, does it not, that your collaborators were in agreement with the anti-Jewish policy in the occupied territories and that this policy included the arrest of Jews?

VON RIBBENTROP: May I reply to this statement? According to my information, in this case, as so often happened in such cases, the German ambassadors could have served as the branch offices. They might have joined in with a view to guiding matters into peaceful channels.

M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown French Document RF-1220, which is a letter from the German Embassy of 27 June 1942, addressed to the head of the Security Police and the SD in France. Before asking you a question I would like to read with you the first two paragraphs of this letter:

“Following my interview with Hauptsturmführer Dannecker on the
date of 27 June, during which he indicated that he required that
50,000 Jews from the unoccupied zone be deported to the East as
soon as possible, and that on the basis of notes sent by the
Commissioner General for Jewish Questions, Darquier de
Pellepoix, under any circumstances something had to be done for
this, I reported the matter to Ambassador Abetz and Minister
Rahn immediately after the discussion. The latter is to confer
with President Laval this afternoon, and he has promised me that
he will speak to him at once about the handing over of these
50,000 Jews; also he will insist that Darquier de Pellepoix be
given complete freedom of action according to the laws already
promulgated, and that the credits which have been promised to
him be handed to him immediately.”

Now, I should like to ask you a question. I ask you to answer as briefly as possible: Were you aware of this _démarche_ for the handing over of these 50,000 Jews?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I was not; I heard about it here for the first time, when this document was, I believe, read out once before.

M. FAURE: If your collaborators Abetz, Rahn, and Zeitschel took such action on this subject without informing you, was it not because they thought they were acting in accordance with your general directives?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, I do not think so; they worked very independently in Paris, but I should like to repeat once again that I am assuming responsibility for everything that these gentlemen have done. I make a point of emphasizing this fact. I did not, however, know anything about the proposed measure against the 50,000 Jews. And I do not even know whether it was ever put into effect, and in what manner these gentlemen had implicated themselves in the matter. The letter does not make it clear. I know only one thing, and that is that my general instructions were to tread cautiously in such matters and, if possible, to bridge difficulties according to my own basic concepts and not to do anything to force matters but, on the contrary, to smooth them over. I can say no more on the subject.

M. FAURE: During the interrogation of your witness Steengracht, the British Prosecution produced a document, 3319-PS, under the British Exhibit Number GB-287. I should like to refer to this document for one question only.

In this document there is an account of a meeting, or a congress, at which were present all the reporters on Jewish questions from the various diplomatic missions in Europe. This congress was held on 3 and 4 April 1944 in Krummhübel. It was organized by Schleier. This was read the other day. You knew about this congress, I suppose?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, this is the first time I have heard about it. What congress was that? I have never heard that such a congress ever took place. What kind of congress was it supposed to be?

M. FAURE: This document has already been submitted; it was a congress held...

VON RIBBENTROP: I know only about one congress which I asked the Führer not to hold. That I do know. But I know nothing at all about a congress which did take place. Please give more detailed information on the subject.

M. FAURE: The document was handed over to the Tribunal, and I would like to ask you one question. You testified that you were unaware of this meeting at which 31 persons, most of whom belonged to the diplomatic service, were present. I will inform you that during this meeting Embassy Counsellor Von Thadden made a declaration which was reported in the following terms:

“The speaker explained the reasons why the Zionist solution of
Palestine and similar alternative solutions must be rejected and
why the Jews must be expatriated into the Eastern territories.”

I suggest that this declaration made by an embassy counsellor in the presence of 31 people belonging to your service voiced your own attitude on these matters.

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, but I do not know in the very least what you mean. May I, to begin with, please have some information on the matter with which we are dealing? I do not understand it at all. I have told you once before that I know nothing about any congress except the one which I countermanded. That was an international congress which was to have been held. I know nothing of a congress of diplomats. Would you kindly place the document in question at my disposal in order that I may make my reply?

M. FAURE: I do not intend to show you this document. I read one sentence contained in this document, and I am merely asking you if this phrase represents your opinion or not. Answer “yes” or “no”.

VON RIBBENTROP: Then I must request you to repeat the sentence. I wish to confirm again, however, that no congress took place; it is not true.

DR. HORN: Mr. President, I object to that question, if the opportunity is not afforded the defendant to give a truthful answer.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the question was proper.

M. FAURE: I ask you whether this sentence which I have read out to you corresponded to your opinion.

VON RIBBENTROP: May I ask you to repeat the sentence. I did not understand it correctly.

M. FAURE: “The speaker explained the reasons why the Zionist
solution of Palestine and similar alternative solutions must be
rejected and why the Jews must be expatriated to the Eastern
territories.”

Was that your thesis?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, it was not.

M. FAURE: Was your attention drawn to the fact that the Italian authorities in France protected the Jews against persecution by Germans?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. I recollect that there was something of the kind but I no longer remember exactly.

M. FAURE: Did you approach the Italian Government on this subject?

VON RIBBENTROP: I recollect that on one occasion I spoke either to Mussolini or to Count Ciano about certain acts of sabotage, espionage, or something of that kind which had occurred in France and against which one would have to be on the alert, and in this connection, I believe, the Jewish problem was also discussed.

M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown Document D-734, which I would like to submit as French Exhibit Number RF-1501. This note is headed:

“Account of a conference between the Reich Foreign Minister and
the Duce in the Palazzo Venezia in the presence of Ambassadors
Von Mackensen and Alfieri and the State Secretary Bastianini on
the 25th of February 1943.”

I would like to read with you the second paragraph on this page:

“Further, the Reich Foreign Minister dealt with the Jewish
question. The Duce was aware that Germany had taken a radical
position with regard to the treatment of the Jews. As a result
of the development of the war in Russia she had come to an even
greater clarification of this question. All Jews had been
transported from Germany and from the territories occupied by
her to reservations in the East. He, the Reich Foreign Minister,
knew that this measure was described as cruel, particularly by
enemies, but it was necessary in order to be able to carry the
war through to a successful conclusion.”

I shall not read the following paragraph, but the fourth:

“France also had taken measures against the Jews which were
extremely useful. They were only temporary, because here, too,
final solution would be the deportation of the Jews to the East.
He, the Reich Foreign Minister, knew that in Italian military
circles, and occasionally among German military people too, the
Jewish problem was not sufficiently appreciated. It was only in
this way that he could understand an order of the _Comando
Supremo_ which, in the Italian occupation zone of France had
canceled measures taken against the Jews by the French
authorities acting under German influence. The Duce contested
the accuracy of this report and traced it back to the French
tactics of causing dissension between Germany and Italy.”

Now I shall ask you a question: A short while ago you told us that you wanted to make all the Jews emigrate to Madagascar. Is Madagascar in the Eastern reservations mentioned in the document?

VON RIBBENTROP: About what? I have not understood.

M. FAURE: You were talking in this document of deporting Jews to the reservations in the Eastern territories, and a short while ago you spoke to us of settling the Jews in Madagascar. Is Madagascar meant here?

VON RIBBENTROP: No, that was the Führer’s plan. This document refers to the fact that a large-scale espionage system had been discovered, I believe, in France. The Führer sent me while I was on a journey to Italy and told me to speak to Mussolini and see to it that in cases of Jews involved in these acts of sabotage and espionage, the Italian Government or the Italian Army did not intervene to prevent this measure. Also I should like to state definitely that I knew, and it was also the Führer’s plan, that the European Jews were to be resettled on a large-scale either in Madagascar, North Africa, or in reservations in the East. This was generally known in Germany. That is all that we are concerned with here, and I also knew that some very unpleasant things had occurred at that time and that the Führer was convinced that all of them could be attributed to Jewish organizations in the south of France, I believe. I now recollect very well that at the time I discussed the matter with Mussolini and begged him to adopt suitable measures since these Jews were furnishing all the information to the English and American Intelligence Services. At least that was the information which the Führer was constantly receiving.

M. FAURE: You said, did you not, that all Jews were to be deported to the Eastern reservations? Is that correct? Please reply “yes” or “no”.

VON RIBBENTROP: Whether I was in favor of it?

M. FAURE: Germany deported all the Jews from German territory and territories occupied by her to Eastern reservations. That is true, is it not?

VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know the contents of the document in detail. I do not know what I myself said in detail. But at any rate I knew that the Führer had ordered that the Jews of the occupied territories in Europe were to be transported to reservations in the East and resettled there. That I did know. The carrying out of these measures, however, was not my task as Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Foreign Office, but I did know that it was the Führer’s wish. In this connection, I remember that I received an order from him to discuss the matter with the Italian Government so that they too would introduce corresponding measures regarding the Jewish problem. That applied to other countries as well, where we had to send telegrams quite frequently, so that these countries should solve the Jewish question.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Faure, did you read to the witness the second paragraph beginning: “Further, the Reich Foreign Minister dealt with the Jewish question...”?

M. FAURE: Yes, Mr. President, the second paragraph. That is the paragraph which I have just been reading.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you read the third one, but I did not know you read the second one too. You read the second one too, did you? Very well.

M. FAURE: Yes, I read it as well, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: The document is a new document, is it not?

M. FAURE: Yes, Mr. President, it is a document which I would like to submit under the Exhibit Number RF-1501. It belongs to the “D” series; it is D-734 of the British document books.

THE PRESIDENT: Has the defendant said whether he admits that it is a substantially accurate account of the conversation?

VON RIBBENTROP: I can no longer say for certain, Mr. President; what I did say at the time, I know only, and gather, from this document, from these words, that the Jews were spreading news from British and American sources. I can remember that at that time a large espionage and sabotage organization was in existence, and that this organization was causing a great deal of trouble in France, and that the Führer ordered me to discuss the matter with Mussolini since the Italians were opposing certain measures we had introduced in France. I spoke to Mussolini and told him that the Führer was of the opinion that, where this question was concerned, we should have to come to a definite understanding.

THE PRESIDENT: I think, Defendant, you have already told us that. The question that I asked was whether you agreed that it was a substantially accurate account of the conversation.

VON RIBBENTROP: I consider that in certain points the report is incorrect, but fundamentally the position was as I have just explained it.

M. FAURE: Now, you also spoke about this question with Horthy, did you not?

VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. I had to confer several times with the Hungarian Government so as to persuade them to do something about the Jewish problem. The Führer was extremely insistent on this point. I therefore discussed the question repeatedly with the Hungarian Ambassador and the question was primarily to centralize the Jews somehow or other in some part of Budapest, I think it was slightly outside Budapest or in—as a matter of fact, I do not know Budapest very well—in any case, it was somewhere in Budapest itself. That was the first point. And the second point dealt with the removal of the Jews from influential Government posts, since it had been proved that Jewish influence in these departments was sufficiently authoritative to bring Hungary to a separate peace.

M. FAURE: The document relating to your conversation or one of the conversations which you had with Horthy has already been produced. It was that of 17 April 1943. It is Document D-736, which was submitted as GB-283.

During the interrogation of your witness, Schmidt, the British prosecutor asked this witness if he admitted having compiled this account, and this was confirmed by Schmidt. This note bears the following remark at the bottom of the first paragraph: “The Foreign Minister declared that the Jews were either to be exterminated or sent to concentration camps. There was no other solution.”

You did say that, did you not?