Chapter XI: Book 4: , Page 28 of the English book, and just look at Captain (2)

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Look to the next page, Document Number C-190, Page 67 of the English document book, Page 284 of the German document book. That is your conversation with Hitler, on the 2nd November 1934, when you are discussing bigger naval estimates and the availability of more money. I want you to look at the end of the first paragraph which gives Hitler’s reasons.

“He considers it vital that the Navy be increased as planned”—now look—“as no war could be carried on if the Navy were not able to safeguard the ore imports from Scandinavia.”

Are you still telling the Tribunal you were not from 1934 onwards contemplating war? Well, if so, why does Hitler say that? That is one of the most vital points of German naval strategy.

“No war could be carried on if the Navy were not able to safeguard the ore imports from Sweden.”

Were you not contemplating war in November? Were you not?

RAEDER: Hitler said that a navy is built so that, if war becomes necessary, the navy can use its weapons to defend the country. A navy is established for no other purpose, and that was definitely one of the general reasons for the existence of a German Navy. There were many people who thought a navy was unnecessary.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You see, what I am putting to you is this. You have told the Tribunal that the Navy was purely defensive, all your preparations were purely defensive. I am suggesting to you that Hitler there is contemplating a war and contemplating the task of a navy during a war, a few months before he intended to denounce the military clauses of Versailles.

You were all set for a war if it should become necessary, and you knew that. Was that not the position?

RAEDER: That is a complete misrepresentation of the facts, Mr. Prosecutor. Of course it is necessary during peacetime to contemplate the circumstances which might arise to make it necessary to call on the Armed Forces for defense. At that time nobody thought of a war of aggression, and the individual tasks must be understood. One of the Navy’s tasks was undoubtedly to secure the Swedish and Norwegian ore exports in case of war; and it had to be developed with a view to that end.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Would you just look at the next sentence in Paragraph-2: “When I pointed out that in the critical political situation in the first quarter of 1935, it would be desirable to have six U-boats already assembled....”

You were preparing for the critical political situation.

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let’s look at what you were doing in 1936. Would you give the defendant and Dr. Siemers Document Number D-806.

That is a report of yours dated the 11th of November 1936, dealing with the U-boat construction program, and after the first paragraph you say this in the second paragraph:

“The military and political situation urgently demands that the
extension of our U-boat fleet should be taken in hand
immediately and completed with the greatest energy and dispatch,
as it is a particularly valuable part of our armament at sea and
possesses special striking power.”

Are you saying that what you were urging there was purely defensive and that you had no idea of the special striking powers that would be needed in a war?

RAEDER: The entire political situation, or so I seem to remember, made me consider it necessary to put the construction of submarines in the foreground. But I never expected that we would start a war on our own account. Hitler himself had told me that again and again, but he had made his political moves which could undoubtedly lead us into war if the other powers intervened against such a political move. The charge made against me was that I did not push the construction of U-boats sufficiently far ahead.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You are stressing it sufficiently there, aren’t you? “On the military and political situation”—you were kept fully informed of the political situation and were adjusting your naval armament accordingly; isn’t that so?

RAEDER: At that time I not only knew nothing about what was going to happen, but I knew that we had occupied the Rhineland during that year, and that in consequence of the clouds which appeared on the horizon as a result of the occupation of the Rhineland Hitler maintained an attitude of greatest caution and said that we must be prepared for further complications. For that reason a special directive was issued in 1936, and I took precautions along the lines suggested by these considerations. My main duty was to watch; and on the basis of my observations and the conclusions which I drew from them, I had to strengthen myself as much as possible. This document, about which you did not question me, had the same connotation.

I asked whether—should political tension develop at the beginning of 1935, before the signing of the Naval Agreement, and that would not be done till June—we should perhaps assemble six U-boats. That was also in the case of tension arising; and I knew at that time that the declaration of freedom of territorial defense was intended to be made in 1935.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, you have told us what you knew in 1936. Now, just let’s pass on to 1937. I want to know exactly what you say. That of course, as you remember, turns on the Hossbach Document, 386-PS, which is at Page 81 of Document Book 10, Page 314 of the German document book.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, did you give the number of that last document?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very grateful, My Lord. It is Exhibit GB-462.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, I want you just—have you got that, Page 314 of the German document book?

RAEDER: Can you tell me the paragraph? I have...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, the first thing I want to ask you about is the third paragraph, the last sentence, where Hitler is reported as saying: “The German future is therefore dependent exclusively on the solution of the need for living space.”

And then I wanted you, if you would be so good, to turn over two pages to 316. My Lord, it is Page 83 of the English document book. That is repeated. My Lord, it is about seven lines down. Where Hitler says: “The only way out, and one which may appear imaginary, is the securing of greater living space.” And then he says that: “The history of all times has proved that every space expansion can only be effected by breaking resistance.” And then in a separate paragraph he says: “The question for Germany is where the greatest possible conquest could be made at the lowest cost.”

Do you see that, on Page 316?

RAEDER: May I begin with the last one? It is wrongly translated.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, that’s what I’m really going to ask you. I want you to just tell us, did you hear Hitler say that that was the general problem, “the greatest possible conquest to be made at the lowest cost.”

RAEDER: No. The English document has the word “conquest” (Eroberung), but that is not in the German document. The German text reads: “the highest possible gain (Gewinn) with the smallest risk.” That is a phrase borrowed from sport. There is no mention of conquest.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I’m quite prepared to accept that it comes after the passage which I have referred to you in quite some detail, because I don’t want to select anything out of the context. Did you appreciate that Hitler there was saying, “The only possibility for Germany is to get extra living space,” and that had to be got at the expense of other nations? He said that, didn’t he?

RAEDER: He did say that; and I explained recently how that is to be understood. He was speaking of Austria and Czechoslovakia, of the Sudetenland. We were of the opinion that no change was intended in that policy; nor did one take place later. War was not waged against Austria or Czechoslovakia.

We were all convinced that he would solve that question peacefully, like all other political questions. I explained that in great detail.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, that is what I was going to ask you about. You have taken my second point yourself. The rest of the document deals with action against Austria and Czechoslovakia. Would you look at Page 86?

I think you will agree with me that Field Marshal Von Blomberg and General Von Fritsch rather poured cold water on Hitler’s ideas. Isn’t that a fair way of putting it?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: They rather thus showed a certain antipathy?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, that was in November 1937.

RAEDER: We all of us told him constantly that in no circumstances might he start a war with England and France, and he always agreed. But I explained that this entire speech had a definite purpose; and that for this purpose he exaggerated a great deal and at once withdrew that exaggeration when a hint was given to him about the danger of a war with France and England.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was what I was going to ask you. That was in November. By January, Field Marshal Von Blomberg had made his unfortunate marriage, hadn’t he?

RAEDER: I believe it was in January. I do not know exactly.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you took the view, didn’t you, that he had been encouraged to do that by the Defendant Göring?

RAEDER: I never said that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Oh, didn’t you?

RAEDER: No, not that I know of. I never thought that at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You remember making a statement in Moscow on this point? Let me read it to you.

RAEDER: To whom, please?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In Moscow to the Russians.

“At the beginning of the year 1938 I had experiences of a
personal nature, which although they did not concern the Navy
directly caused me to lose confidence, not only in Göring but
also in the sincerity of the Führer. The situation in which
Field Marshal Von Blomberg found himself as a result of his
unfortunate marriage made his position as a Commander-in-Chief
of the Armed Forces impossible. I came to the belated conclusion
that Göring was making every effort to obtain the post of
Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht in place of Blomberg.

“He favored the marriage because it made Blomberg ineligible for
this post, while Blomberg believed—and even stated
repeatedly—that such a marriage was possible under the present
system. Göring had already had him shadowed in the past, as I
learned from later remarks.”

Didn’t you say that?

RAEDER: In Moscow, immediately after the collapse, I made a note of the causes of the collapse as seen in the light of my own experience. I wrote this document under the conditions there—where I was treated very chivalrously—and I had no hesitation in informing the highest general of the Commissariat of the Interior of this when I was asked what I was doing there.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: All I want to know is, is that true, what you said?

RAEDER: Yes. I wrote these notes, and it is also true that it occurred to me afterwards that Göring might have favored the marriage. I believe that he himself told me that here. He had assisted Blomberg in such a way that, I think, he did not know what the true state of affairs was or how serious the matter was.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you see, your view at that time was that Göring was encouraging the marriage because he knew that it would put Blomberg off the map as Commander-in-Chief because he, Göring, wanted the position. Was that the view that you held last summer?

RAEDER: I believed that last summer, yes. And it is also true that Göring certainly wanted to become Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, but the Führer himself thwarted him in that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, that was Von Blomberg. We know what happened to him. Your second choice, after Von Blomberg, was Von Fritsch, was it not? You thought that Von Fritsch would have been the best Commander-in-Chief if Von Blomberg went, did you not?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You mentioned that to Hitler? And...

RAEDER: He asked me, and I said that if I were consulted, I would suggest Baron von Fritsch. But the Führer said that that was out of the question.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. But there were some of them bringing a charge of homosexuality against Von Fritsch; isn’t that right? That was why it could not be done?

RAEDER: Yes. He said, in general terms, that some kind of moral crime existed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You were one of the court who inquired into that charge, were you not? Göring, as president, you and General Von Brauchitsch?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you came to the conclusion that the charge of homosexuality against Von Fritsch was a frame-up by the Gestapo, did you not? Do you know what I mean? I am afraid “frame-up” is rather difficult to translate.

RAEDER: The whole thing gave me that impression. Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is because the denunciation had been by some shady character who you thought was a “hang-around” of the Gestapo; and at the trial, the co-operation of the Gestapo with the accuser was brought to light; that is right, is it not?

You were satisfied, from sitting at the trial?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you agree that there had been—not a confusion—but that the guilty party was a cavalry captain, Rittmeister Von Fritsch, and not this general at all; isn’t that right?

RAEDER: I agree absolutely. We acquitted Baron von Fritsch because his innocence was proved. There was no suspicion of any kind remaining against him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You acquitted him, but his reinstatement did not follow? His reinstatement in command did not follow?

RAEDER: No. I went to him, as I knew him very well, and asked him if he would agree to my going to Hitler and suggesting that he, Baron von Fritsch, be reinstated. But Fritsch replied that he considered that quite impossible. He thought that his authority was so much impaired that he would no longer care to resume his position as Commander-in-Chief of the Army.

After that, unfortunately, I could do no more about it. I reported this to the Führer, but there were no further developments. All that happened was that the Führer confirmed the absolute innocence of Baron von Fritsch in a large assembly of generals and admirals.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And did you say this with regard to the Von Fritsch incident:

“I was convinced that Göring had a hand in this well-prepared
situation, since in order to attain his goal it was necessary to
eliminate every possible successor to Von Blomberg”?

Do you remember saying that?

RAEDER: I do not remember that now; but I believe that I held that opinion. To be quite just, I must say that Baron von Fritsch’s acquittal was due principally to the way in which Göring conducted the proceedings. The witness who was brought up told so many lies and made so many contradictory statements every few minutes, that only Göring could cope with him. After seeing that, I was very thankful that I had not been appointed president, as suggested by the Minister of Justice. I could not have coped with those people. It was entirely due to Göring’s intervention that he was acquitted without any difficulties.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But of course, I think you have said, Witness, that whether he was acquitted or not, the authority of Von Fritsch in the German Army was in his own view destroyed by the fact that this charge had been brought against him. That was the result of it, was it not?

RAEDER: Herr Von Fritsch thought so. I would have insisted on being reinstated after I had been acquitted in that manner.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did it not strike you as curious that the two people who on the 5th of November had tried to head Hitler off from a course that might have meant war were both disgraced in 2 months? Didn’t it strike you as curious?

RAEDER: That did not strike me as curious at all; and there is certainly no connection. If Hitler had thought it necessary to remove the men in high positions who opposed him in such matters, he would have had to remove me long ago. But he never said anything about it to me, and I have never noticed that he said anything like that because I contradicted him. I have frequently pointed out, with regard to that very question of England and France, that no war should be caused there; and I never had the impression that he ever took it amiss.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, just let us take it very shortly. Within 6 weeks of the disgrace of Blomberg and the removal of Von Fritsch, the Anschluss with Austria took place.

Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not know that there were pretended military preparations for the Anschluss with Austria, the ones described by General Jodl in his diary and also described by Field Marshal Keitel? Did you know that these threats of military action would have been made?

RAEDER: I do not believe that I ever took part in a military discussion concerning the Austrian Anschluss, because actually I had nothing to do with it. But I should like to emphasize here, once and for all, that I learned of such enterprises as, for instance, the annexation of Austria through a directive issued by the Führer, and not before, because one copy of these directives, regardless of whether or not they concerned the Navy, was always sent to me as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. So, of course, I must have received a directive in this case, too. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you the date of it; but I confirm that a directive came to my knowledge.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You see, the point that I am putting—and I do not want to waste time on it—is this: That on the 5th of November Hitler said that he was going to get Austria in 1943 to 1945 at the latest, and earlier if an opportunity arises. Four months later, in March 1938, he takes Austria after having got rid of the people who threw cold water on his plans. But if you did not know about it, we shall not waste time, but shall look at Czechoslovakia, because there you did get the decree.

You will find that on Page 163 of Document Book 10a, Page 276 of the German document book. That is the distribution of the directive for operations against Czechoslovakia. It is bringing up to date the one of the 24th of June, and you will see that its execution must be assured as from the 1st of October 1938, at the latest, and Copy Number 2 goes to you as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.

Now, if you will turn over the page to the actual directive, 146 of the English document book, 277 to 278, you see the first sentence of Paragraph 1, “Political Prerequisites”:

“It is my unalterable decision to smash Czechoslovakia by
military action in the near future. It is the job of the
political leaders to await or bring about the politically or
militarily suitable moment.”

RAEDER: May I ask where it is? I do not seem able to find it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The first sentence in the directive, Paragraph 1, Political Prerequisites—Sentence 1: “It is my unalterable decision to smash Czechoslovakia by military action in the near future.”

RAEDER: The numbering is confused here.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very sorry. Page 277, 278.

RAEDER: Yes. Now I have found it. What was the date?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: 28th of May 1938, that is approximately six months after the meeting which you had attended at which Hitler had said he would attack Czechoslovakia at the earliest opportunity that he could. Didn’t that make you think that Hitler’s speech in November was not merely froth but was stating his plans?

RAEDER: No, because he kept on changing his decisions all the summer. He made a fresh decision every month. That can be seen from Document 388-PS. And it was like this, I believe: on 10 September troops began to assemble and on the same day negotiations were started. On 1 October the peaceful occupation of the Sudetenland took place, after the other powers had agreed to that at Munich. After the Munich negotiations...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We all know that. The point is perfectly clear...

RAEDER: I should like to finish.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In May, here were the plans, and the Führer had mentioned—in his speeches he had expressed this: that it was his determination at the end of May to smash Czechoslovakia by military action. Are you telling the Tribunal that you read that directive and still took the view that Hitler had not got aggressive intentions? That is the question.

RAEDER: Yes, at the end of May.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Why, what more proof could you want than his own determination to smash it? What clearer proof could you want?

RAEDER: He frequently said that he intended to smash something and then did not do it. The question was peacefully solved then. I should like to add that on 30 May—I believe that was the date—after mobilization had just been carried out in Czechoslovakia, and that had led him to use such stern words then, and from this—I think he was justified in doing so, for this mobilization could only be directed against Germany, and as I said, he changed his opinion at least three or four times in the course of the summer, saying again and again that he would reserve his decision and—or that he did not wish to use military force.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, the Tribunal have gotten the whole of the 388-PS document in mind. I won’t argue it. You say that didn’t convince you.

When Hitler went into Prague on the 15th of March 1939, did it then occur to you that there might be something in what he said in the interview on the 5th of November 1937 when he occupied the Slav part of Bohemia and Moravia and broke his own rule about keeping Germany for the Germans? Did it then occur to you that he might not then have been joking or merely talking froth in November? Did it?

RAEDER: He had issued a directive saying that the aims for that year were:

1) The defense of Germany against outside attack.

2) The settlement of the rest of Czechoslovakia in case she adopted a line of policy hostile to Germany.

I heard nothing at all about his negotiations with Hacha and his decision following them to occupy Czechoslovakia. I only knew that he wanted to take action against Czechoslovakia according to his directive, in case Czechoslovakia should adopt a line of policy hostile to Germany; and according to the propaganda at that period, that actually did occur. I had nothing at all to do with the occupation of Czechoslovakia; nor with the occupation of the Sudeten area, because the only service which we could have rendered in these operations was our small Danube Flotilla which was subordinated to the Army for this purpose so that I had nothing at all to do with it. There were no other military orders.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is your answer that even when Hitler went into Prague on the 15th of March 1939, you still thought he had no aggressive intentions? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe from you? Is that right?

RAEDER: Yes, I ask the Tribunal to do so because I believe that he did not want to fight a war, to conduct a campaign against Czechoslovakia. By means of his political measures with Hacha he succeeded so far that war did not break out.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Oh yes, you heard the Defendant Göring give his evidence that he told President Hacha that his armed forces would bomb Prague if he didn’t agree. If that is not war, it is next door to it, isn’t it?

RAEDER: It is very close to it. Yes, a threat.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, let’s go further on for another 2 months. If you didn’t see it, on March—on the 23rd of May—when you came to the Reich Chancellery there were six high-ranking officers, of which you were one. And Hitler said that he would give you an indoctrination on the political situation. And his indoctrination was that, “We are left with a decision to attack Poland at the first opportunity.” When you heard him say that on the 25th of May, did you still think he had no aggressive intentions?

RAEDER: I thought so for a long time after that. Just as Generaloberst Jodl said, since he had solved the Czech problem by purely political means, it was to be hoped that he would be able to solve the Polish question also without bloodshed; and I believed that up to the last moment, up to 22 August.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just take one glance—I shan’t keep you long—at Document L-79, which you will find on Page 74, I think it is, of Document Book 10. I am sorry. Page 298 of the German document book. I beg your pardon. I am not going to ask you about the document because the Tribunal has dealt with that. I want you to look at the people who were there—298 in the German document book.

RAEDER: I know the people who were there.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let’s look: Lieutenant Colonel Schmundt; he was afterwards General, Hitler’s principal adjutant, and killed on the 20th of July, 1944, isn’t that right? Then the Defendant Göring, Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force; yourself as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy; Colonel General Von Brauchitsch who was Commander-in-Chief of the Army; General Keitel who was head of the OKW; General Milch who was Göring’s Deputy; Halder who was Chief of Staff; Schniewind who was your Chief of Staff; and Jeschonnek who was I think a Chief of Staff or a high...

RAEDER: Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. And Colonel Warlimont, who was General Jodl’s assistant.

Now, what do you think Hitler got these high-ranking generals for, and told them, “We are left with a decision to attack Poland at the first opportunity,” if he hadn’t any aggressive intentions? What were these people there for if it wasn’t to develop a war?

RAEDER: I have already explained that the main purpose of that speech, as may be seen from the last part of it, was to give a purely academic lecture on the conduct of war, and on the basis of that lecture to create a special study staff, a project which the chiefs of the Armed Forces had so far strongly opposed. I also explained at the start that his explanations were at first the most confused that I have ever heard regarding the matter, and that he issued no directives in regard to them but that the last lines read: “The branches of the Wehrmacht determine what will be built. There will be no alteration in the shipbuilding program. The armament programs are to be fixed for 1943 or 1944.” When he said that, he could certainly not have intended to solve the Polish question by a war in the near future.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you telling the Tribunal that when he said, “We cannot expect a repetition of the Czech affair; further successes cannot be obtained without the shedding of blood,” you paid no attention to it at all? You are seriously telling the Tribunal that you paid no attention to that?

RAEDER: No, I certainly did not at all, because by this time I was getting to know Hitler and was familiar with the exaggerations contained in his speeches.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: At this time you had already had the directives for a surprise attack on Danzig, in November 1938. You had had the directive on the 3rd of April for the Fall Weiss, and you know this whole matter was _en train_. Are you seriously, Defendant, telling the Tribunal that you had any doubt after the 23rd of May that Hitler intended war against Poland and was quite prepared to fight England and France, if they carried out their guarantee? I mean, seriously, I give you this chance before we adjourn: Do you say that you had any doubt at all?

RAEDER: Of course; I have surely explained that even in August I was still doubtful. For instance, in estimating this speech, I must compare it, as has already been done here, with the speech which Hitler had made a few weeks earlier at the launching of the _Bismarck_, where he spoke only of the peace of true justice. Those speeches were decisive for me. I did not base my conclusions on this particular speech which is reproduced in such an extremely confused manner; and that I proved by the fact that during the whole of the summer I never said a word to the Navy to suggest that war might break out in the autumn. Confirmation of that was given here; and anybody can give further confirmation. I thought very highly of Hitler’s political ability and even on 22 August, when we were informed of the pact with Russia, I was still convinced that we should again be able to find a peaceful solution of the problem. That was my definite conviction. I may be accused of faulty judgment, but I thought I had formed a correct estimate of Hitler.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I understand you to say that even on the 22nd of August you didn’t think that Hitler had any aggressive intentions. Do you really mean that?

RAEDER: Yes, and there is a perfectly good reason for it, because there was every prospect of our forming an alliance with Russia. He had given all sorts of reasons why England and France would not intervene; and all those who were assembled there drew from that the sincere hope that he would again be successful in getting out of the affair without fighting.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Will this be a convenient time to adjourn, My Lord?

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I am most anxious not to take up unnecessary time. With regard to the meeting of the 22d of August, Your Lordship may remember that Dr. Siemers raised a point as to the two accounts of the meeting, one in Documents 1014-PS and 798-PS and the other in the account by Admiral Böhm. I have had a comparison made out in English and German showing the points which are similar to both, and I thought it would be more convenient just to put that in. Let Dr. Siemers see the German copy and make any suggestion at the appropriate time rather than spend any time in cross-examining the witness as to any differences in the accounts. My Lord, with the permission of the Tribunal, I will put that in now and hand Dr. Siemers a copy so that he can draw the Tribunal’s attention to any points at a convenient stage.

THE PRESIDENT: Did not Admiral Böhm make the accounts?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, the Prosecution’s account is in two documents, 798-PS and 1014-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: There was another document which was mentioned by my friend, Mr. Alderman, but not put in. It was an account by a journalist which was the first account the Prosecution had had, but when they got the two accounts from the OKW files, they did not use their first one; so I had only taken the two accounts from the OKW files and Admiral Böhm’s account.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But does not that make three documents in all, apart from the one which has been left out?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord, and I have taken each of the two and compared it with Admiral Böhm’s.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So, on that I shall not pursue this interview. I thought that it would save time.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I’d like you, therefore, Defendant, to look at Document Number 789-PS, which is at Page 261 of Book 10a and Pages 438 to 440 of the German book—438 to 440. This is the note, Defendant, of a conference on the 23d of November 1939 with Hitler, to which all Supreme Commanders were ordered. Do you see that at the beginning, Pages 438 to 440? Do you see what it says, “to which all Supreme Commanders are ordered”? Were you present?

RAEDER: Yes, it is the conference during the war on 23 November 1939.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. Were you present?

RAEDER: I was present.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Who were the other commanders-in-chief who were present?

RAEDER: The commanders-in-chief of the Army, the Air Force, and a considerable number of generals of the Army.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The “Oberbefehlshaber”?

RAEDER: Yes, but in the Army...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. Now, I want you to look at a passage. The paragraph begins: “One year later, Austria came. This step also was considered very hazardous.”

Do you see that? Do you see that paragraph?

RAEDER: Yes, I have got it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Much obliged. Now, I just want you to look at the next few sentences.

“It brought about a considerable strengthening of the Reich. The
next step was Bohemia, Moravia, and Poland. But this step was
not to be accomplished in one move. First of all, the West Wall
had to be finished in the West. It was not possible to reach the
goal in one bound. It was clear to me from the first moment that
I could not be satisfied with the Sudeten-German territory. It
was only a partial solution. The decision to march into Bohemia
was made. Then followed the establishment of the Protectorate
and with that the basis for the conquest of Poland was laid, but
I was not yet clear at that time whether I should start first
against the East and then against the West or vice-versa. Moltke
often had to ponder over the same things in his time. Of
necessity it came to a fight with Poland first. I shall be
accused of wanting to fight and fight again; in struggle I see
the fate of all beings. Nobody can avoid a struggle if he does
not want to go under. The increasing population requires a
larger living space. My goal was to create a logical relation
between the population and the living space.”

Whatever you had understood up to that time, you appreciated then, that Hitler himself had had a consistent and clear aim of aggression throughout these matters that I put to you this morning; did you not?

RAEDER: Yes, but now we were already in the middle of a war and he was looking at these things retrospectively. Also, he wanted to make it clear to the generals, with whom he had a conflict at that time, that he had always been right in his political conceptions. That is the reason why he quoted all these detailed points again.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, would you turn over to Pages 445-448, which is Page 264 of the English document book, German document book Pages 445-448. Have you got that?

RAEDER: Perhaps you would be good enough to read, I have here a...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is the paragraph that begins: “We have an Achilles heel: The Ruhr.”

RAEDER: I have it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Would you look about halfway down that paragraph. You will see: “England cannot live without its imports. We can feed ourselves. The permanent sowing of mines off the English coasts will bring England to her knees.”

Have you got that passage?

RAEDER: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Thank you. Now, if you would just listen.

“However, this”—that is bringing England to her knees—“can
only occur when we have occupied Belgium and Holland. It is a
difficult decision for me. Nobody has ever achieved what I have
achieved. My life is of no importance in all this. I have led
the German people to a great height, even if the world does hate
us now. I am setting this work at stake. I have to choose
between victory or destruction. I choose victory, the greatest
historical choice—to be compared with the decision of Frederick
the Great before the first Silesian War. Prussia owes its rise
to the heroism of one man.”

And there is some more about Frederick the Great and Bismarck:

“My decision is unchangeable. I shall attack France and England
at the most favorable and quickest moment. Violation of the
neutrality of Belgium and Holland is unimportant. No one will
question that when we have won. We shall not give such idiotic
reasons for the violation of neutrality as were given in 1914.
If we do not violate the neutrality, then England and France
will. Without attack the war is not to be ended victoriously.”

Now, do you remember, Defendant, that this was just 3 weeks after the plans for “Fall Gelb,” that is plans for the attack on Holland and Belgium, had been issued on 10 November? Do you remember that?

RAEDER: I know that this was discussed here. But we were already at war with England, therefore at that stage it was no longer necessary to discuss an attack against England and France and...

SIR. DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You were not at war with Holland and Belgium, were you?

RAEDER: Please, I would like to finish.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sorry, I thought you had finished.

RAEDER: Here it says: “If the French Army marches into Belgium to attack us, then it will be too late for us. We must be first.”

Hitler at that time stated that he had received definite news that Belgium would not respect her neutrality and that he also had news already that certain preparations for the reception of French and British troops _et cetera_ had already been made. For that reason, he wanted to forestall an attack from Belgium against us. Apart from that, in his speech of 22 August 1939, he had made a statement entirely to the opposite effect. He had said that Belgium and Holland would not break their neutrality.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you agree with what he said, that the “Violation of the neutrality of Belgium and Holland is unimportant. No one will question that when we have won.” Did you agree with that view?

RAEDER: No, it is not exactly my opinion, but I had no cause on my part to raise any objection against that statement of his at that moment.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The view of the Naval War Command was put up to him a month later with regard to U-boat warfare, was it not? Do you remember that on 30th December you had a meeting with Hitler, at which Colonel General Keitel and Fregattenkapitän Von Puttkamer were present?

RAEDER: Yes, I was with him on 30 December.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I would like you to look at the new document, which is Document Number C-100, Exhibit Number GB-463.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, ought not this document be identified?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Lordship, of course, is right. I think we had perhaps better give them two numbers, one for each of the original PS documents. My Lord, the comparison...

THE PRESIDENT: 1014-PS has a number already, has it not?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord. That has a number.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought perhaps the comparative document ought to have a number.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Certainly. Shall we call one comparison Exhibit Number GB-464, the comparison of Document Number 798-PS; and the comparison of Document Number 1014-PS, Exhibit Number GB-465?

THE PRESIDENT: I have only got one here, as far as I can see.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I am going to get some more done. I am afraid I have passed out only a limited number at the moment, but I will have some more run off.

464, 798; GB-465 will be 1014-PS. It will be the comparison of Document Number 798-PS with the Raeder Document, and Exhibit Number GB-465 will be the comparison of Document Number 1014-PS in the Raeder document book.

I am very much obliged to Your Lordship.

THE PRESIDENT: Now you are going to give us Document Number C-100?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: C-100, My Lord, yes.

Defendant, I will be grateful if you will turn over a few pages to where it comes to a report, the date of 30 December 1939, and then after that there is an enclosure to the report to the Führer of 30 December 1939.

Would you look at Paragraph IV, which says:

“With regard to the form and the moment for the commencement of
further intensification of the war at sea, the decision of the
supreme war command to begin the general intensification of the
war with an offensive in the West is of decisive importance.”

Have you got that, Paragraph IV?

RAEDER: Page?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am afraid the paging is different.

RAEDER: “With regard to the form”—yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: “With regard to the form and the moment
for the commencement of further intensification of the war at
sea, the decision of the supreme war command to begin the
general intensification of the war with an offensive in the West
is of decisive importance.

“I. Possibility: The decision of the Führer is made in favor of
a Western offensive, beginning very shortly, within the
framework of the instructions issued for this to date, by
violating the neutrality of other states:

“In this case the intensified measures for the war at sea will
in their political effect only represent a small part of the
entire intensification of the war. The gradual change-over to
the intensified form of waging the war at sea within the
American restricted zone, with the ultimate aim of a ruthless
employment of all means of warfare to interrupt all commerce
with England, is therefore proposed with the start of the
offensive.

“Immediate anticipation of individual intensified measures for
the war at sea is not necessary and may be postponed until the
start of the general intensification of the war. The benevolent
neutrals Italy, Spain, Japan and Russia as well as America, are
to be spared as far as possible.”

Isn’t that right, that you contemplated that Hitler’s violation of the neutrality of the Low Countries would cover, by being a more important matter, your adopting the most ruthless methods of war at sea? Isn’t that right?

RAEDER: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What does that mean if it does not mean that? What does that mean if it does not mean what I have put to you?

RAEDER: With the beginning of the offensive in the West, Hitler also wanted a certain more energetic pursuit of the war at sea. For that reason, he asked me to introduce only at this point the intensified measures which I considered already justified because of the attitude of the British forces. These intensifications were very carefully considered in that memorandum, and they followed step by step the different steps taken by Britain.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will deal with the memorandum. You need not be afraid that I will omit that, but what I am putting to you at the moment is this: That so far from disapproving of the violation of the neutrality of Holland and Belgium, you on behalf of the Navy were quite prepared to accompany it by the intensification of submarine warfare; isn’t that right?

RAEDER: That is twisting my words. I had nothing to do with this violation of neutrality for we were not there when they marched into these two countries. The only thing I was interested in was to intensify the submarine war step by step, so as to meet the measures introduced by the British, which also violated international law.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am going to come to submarine warfare, but at the moment I want to try to keep in compartments. There are only two more points on this aggressive war. I am now going to pass—you can leave that document for the moment. I will come back to it, Defendant; you need not be afraid, and I want you to help me on one or two points in Norway.

With regard to Norway, you were quite content to leave Norway neutral, not occupied, so long as you had a protected channel up the Norwegian coast in neutral waters, is that right? That was an important point for you, to have a channel in neutral waters so that not only your ships, but also your submarines, could go up and start out from neutral waters, is that right?

RAEDER: No, I have very clearly explained the origin of the Norwegian campaign in documents. There was the danger that the British might occupy Norway, and information of all sorts indicated that. Of course, if we were forced to occupy the Norwegian coast, then, apart from all the numerous disadvantages which I have explained, we had the advantage that we would gain this or that base for our Atlantic submarines.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you telling the Tribunal that the Navy seriously thought that the British wanted to occupy Norway?

RAEDER: I most certainly thought that. We had so much information about it that I could have no doubt whatever, and it was fully confirmed later on.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just ask you, then, to look at just one or two typical Navy reports. We won’t refer to the document again, but we will start from there, just to get the time.

You remember, on the 13th of March 1940, General Jodl entered in his diary that the Führer was still looking for justification; do you remember that? You remember that, don’t you?

RAEDER: I have already explained once that the expression just used, “justification,” is wrong, wrongly translated, Jodl wrote “Begründung,” “reason.” But that is also wrong—please will you let me finish—even that is incorrect, because the Führer had an abundance of reasons, which he laid down in the instruction issued on the 1st of March, and it was known to all of us. I have said that by the expression “Begründung,” “reason,” he probably meant that he had not yet had a diplomatic note compiled. He had not told the Foreign Minister anything about it at that stage. I told you that recently under oath and I repeat it under oath today.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. That is the meaning that you have given to it. Well now, will you look at your own Raeder Exhibit Number 81, in Raeder Document Book 5, Page 376.

RAEDER: May I have Document Book 5?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Oh, you have not got it. I’m sorry. I will get you one.

Now, that is dealing with the first point, encroachment by the English into Norwegian territorial waters, and it says:

“An examination of the question as to whether a mass
encroachment by the English into the Norwegian territorial
waters was so immediately imminent that it might represent a
danger to present German shipping produces the opinion that this
is not to be expected at the present time. The ore transports
are to be continued, as no losses have yet occurred.”

Was that your information, that no mass encroachment of Norwegian territorial waters was to be expected on the 22d of March?

RAEDER: That was not at all my conception. It was the view of Kapitän zur See Fricke, who was at that time the Chief of the Operations Department. He did not quite agree with me about the whole of this question. He was of the opinion that the British should be allowed to enter Norway first, and then we should throw them out through Sweden, a completely distorted idea which I could not approve of in any way. I had such clear information from Quisling and Hagelin, particularly at that time, the second half of March, that there was no longer any doubt whatever that within a reasonable time the British would intervene on a big scale.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You say that that was Admiral Fricke’s view, and you didn’t pay attention to it. Well, now, let me look...

RAEDER: I did not concern myself with it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You know, Admiral Assmann, whom you have described as a sound historian, kept a headline diary, and on the next day he gives an account of a meeting between you and Hitler, and he says this. This is the same day. You may have read it, because he turns down your proposal to use U-boats off Halifax. It is the same day, the 23d of February. Then, at that date, you are quoted as saying that to insure the supply of ore from Narvik, it would be best to preserve the neutrality of Norway.

Then, on the 26th of March, Admiral Assmann in his report of the meeting between you and Hitler records your answers as follows. It is quite short: “British landing in Norway not considered imminent—Raeder suggests action by us at the next new moon—to which Hitler agrees.”

That is Admiral Assmann’s report of the meeting between you and Hitler on the 26th of March: “British landing in Norway not considered imminent—Raeder suggests action by us at the next new moon, the 7th of April—to which Hitler agrees.”

Do you remember that?

RAEDER: No. I mean, it is quite improbable that at that moment I should not have been fully convinced of the imminent landing about which the whole of Documents 004-PS and 007-PS gave me reliable information. I did not see the documents, but the information contained in them was fully available.

Admiral Assmann compiled his notes from all sorts of war diaries and records. I most certainly never said that because at that time I reported to Hitler again and again that our preparations which had already been started a time ago would be complete at the end of January, and that that would be the time when the landings had to be carried out for the reasons I always put forward. It is completely wrong to assume that at that time I had the slightest doubt. Later everything was proved right...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now really we must...

RAEDER: And later on, it all turned out to be correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We must get down to this matter. You have told us that Admiral Assmann was a trustworthy officer and good at naval history.

RAEDER: He is not a deceiver, but he compiled the document from all sorts of papers and I cannot imagine how he could have arrived at that statement, I certainly never made it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, but the second part of it, the second sentence, is right, isn’t it? “Raeder suggests action by us at the next new moon, the 7th of April.”

That is right; that is when you did invade. That was when your armada started off to arrive there on the 9th, wasn’t it?

RAEDER: But yes, of course. I was in favor of carrying out the landings in Norway at the earliest possible time, after ice conditions had improved, as we had previously decided and as had been ordered by Hitler. For that I assume full responsibility. There was every reason for that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well. Again I mustn’t argue with you, but the point comes to this, that you are saying that Admiral Assmann, who is right in his second sentence, is not only wrong but entirely wrong—I mean, stating the opposite of the truth—when he says that the British landing in Norway was not considered imminent.

Well now, we will just pursue that a little.

RAEDER: I only submitted to the Führer this matter of landing in Norway on the supposition that this information was available and would continue to be available.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, what was that document of the 26th of March 1940?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was an extract from the Assmann Diary which I have used before, and I will have one made up and put in for identification. I haven’t got it copied yet, My Lord, I am sorry. I shall have it done.

RAEDER: I should be grateful if perhaps you could show me the document. You have shown me all the others, but not this one, the one I contest.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I beg your pardon. It is such a short extract I thought you would take it from me, but the last thing I want is not to show you any documents.

You see the entry for the 26th of March:

“British landing in Norway not considered imminent. Raeder
suggests action by us at next new moon, 7th of April, to which
Hitler agrees. Further discussions about laying of mines at
Scapa before German invasion of Norway. Hitler agrees with
Raeder and will issue instructions accordingly.”

RAEDER: May I come back to it now. Here it says, the 26th of March 1940: “Occupation of Norway by British was imminent when the Russian-Finnish peace was concluded.”