Chapter XXV: Book 4: , Page 28 of the English book, and just look at Captain (16)

VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was a state youth organization, and my aim was to separate religious and state education. A young man who wanted to go to church could go after the morning celebration—it was a camp function—or before it, according to whether he wanted to attend mass or go to a Protestant service; and on these Sundays on which he was not in camp—the whole camp lasted 3 weeks at the outside—he was completely free to attend church at home with his parents or other friends.

MR. DODD: All right.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think it is fair to say that immediately before the words “Page 71” there are three lines which might be said to refer to religion.

MR. DODD: Yes, I intend to quote it. I was saving that for a little later. I will be glad to do it now if Your Honor prefers to have it.

THE PRESIDENT: No.

MR. DODD: I want to call your attention to a historical moral ballad that is suggested for the youth of this camp, on Page 89 of your text or 90, and on Page 6 of the English text.

Now, I am not going to read this whole ballad, but I think you will agree that it ridicules, to put it mildly, the Jews, other political parties in Germany. It refers to “Isidor, Isidor” in the opening lines, and it goes on down, “Poor Michael was a wretched man; he had to serve the Jewish clan.” In another line, “He gave the gang and the Jew a kick.”

And then your Party youth leaders suggest that now they have a—what is it—a shadow show:

“The nose of Isidor must be strongly exaggerated; the German
Michael should be presented in the conventional manner; the
Communist as a wild stormer of barricades; the Social Democrat
with a balloon cap; the Center Party man with a Jesuit cap, and
the reactionary with top hat and monocle.”

Did you ever see one of those shows, by the way?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot find the text you have just quoted on Page 89.

MR. DODD: I probably have given you the wrong page. I have just been told it is Page 154 of your text—155, rather.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

MR. DODD: Well, I just want to know about this suggested part of the program for these young people of yours.

VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say something about the whole question as far as this book is concerned. I wrote the preface and I accept responsibility for the contents. I did not read every detail of this book beforehand; and I do not wish to dispute the fact that in the camps forming part of the camp circus, as it was called, political caricatures were presented in the form of shadow-shows.

MR. DODD: You know one of your youngsters wrote Streicher a letter telling him that he saw this kind of a show. Do you know about that? I am going to show you that letter in a little while, just to show you that it did happen, and that your young people wrote to Streicher about it.

And on the last page of the English text, for Sunday, 19 July—I think it is Page 179 of your text—the motto for the day is “Our service to Germany is divine service.” And that was a slogan you used on other Sundays, and as the Tribunal has pointed out, on Page 70 of your text you say:

“...that this Sunday morning ceremony does not aim at presenting
arguments or conflicts with confessional points of view, but at
imbuing life and men with courage and strength to fulfill their
greater and lesser tasks through unqualified faith in the divine
power and the ideology of the Führer and his movement.”

Now, in no place where you ever made any reference to God did you ever fail also to mention Hitler or the leaders of the Party, did you?

VON SCHIRACH: Will you please indicate the passage that you quoted just now?

MR. DODD: It is on Page 70, right at the bottom of your Page 70.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, it says here:

“It does not aim at presenting arguments or conflicts with
confessional points of view, but at imbuing life and men with
courage and strength to fulfill their greater and lesser tasks
through unqualified faith in the divine power and the ideology
of the Führer and his Party.

That does not, after all, mean that Hitler is compared to God, but I believe that in the answer I gave a few minutes ago I did define my attitude.

MR. DODD: Let’s see if you don’t. In your book _Revolution of Education_, on Page 148, do you remember this statement: “The flag of the Third Reich”—we’ll begin the whole sentence:

“On the contrary, the service of Germany appears to us to
be...the service of God. The banner of the Third Reich appears
to us to be His banner; and the Führer of the people is the
savior whom he sent to save us from the calamity and peril into
which we were actually plunged by the most pious parties of the
defunct German Republic.”

VON SCHIRACH: I should like to see the original of this text, please.

MR. DODD: All right.

VON SCHIRACH: Here I write:

“We consider that we are serving the Almighty when with our
youthful strength we seek to make Germany once more united and
great. In acknowledging loyalty to our Homeland we see nothing
which could be construed as a contradiction of His eternal will.
On the contrary, the service of Germany appears to us to be
genuine and sincere service of God; the banner of the Third
Reich appears to us to be His banner; and the Führer of the
people is the savior whom He sent to rescue us from the calamity
and peril into which we were actually plunged by the most pious
parties of the defunct German Republic.”

This is the Center Party of the old Republic and other similar organizations of a confessional and political nature. I wrote this. I really do not see anything in that which could be construed into a deification of the Führer. For me, service to my country was service to the Almighty.

MR. DODD: All right, if that is your answer—I see it differently. Let’s go on to something else so that we can get through. I don’t want to neglect to show you, if you care to be shown, that communication to Streicher. It has already been presented to the Tribunal by the British Delegation, the British prosecutor. I think it was read from, but not put in, I am told.

In any event, do you know about that, Mr. Witness? Do you know about the letter that the boys and girls of the Youth Hostel at Grossmöllen wrote to Streicher in April of 1936, when they told him about seeing the Jews, “Every Sunday our leader shows a play about the Jews with his puppet theater.”

I just want to know if you are aware of it.

VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say in this connection that the National Socialist Youth Home at Grossmöllen, which is mentioned here, was not a Hitler Youth institution but was, I believe, a kindergarten run by the National Socialist Public Welfare Organization or some other organization.

This is typical of the letters ordered by the publisher of _Der Stürmer_ for recruiting purposes.

MR. DODD: Just a moment. Didn’t you take over every youth hostel in 1933?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

MR. DODD: Well, what do you mean by saying that in 1936 this National Socialist Youth Hostel at Grossmöllen was not a part of the Hitler Youth organization?

VON SCHIRACH: It says here youth home (Heimstätte), not hostel (Herberge). I am not familiar with the expression “Heimstätte.” That must refer to a home run by the National Socialist Public Welfare Organization or the National Socialist Women’s League. We had only “Jugendheime” and “Herbergen.”

MR. DODD: Well, doesn’t it strike you as being strangely coincidental that in your program for one of your youth camps you suggest a show which portrays a Jewish man with a great nose and ridicules him and teaches children to dislike him and laugh at him and that from a youth camp a youngster writes to Streicher saying that she and boys and girls saw such a show?

VON SCHIRACH: This letter was not written from any youth camp.

MR. DODD: Well, I accept it if that is your answer.

VON SCHIRACH: I do not deny that this puppet play was shown and that this letter was written; but I believe the connection is pulled in by the hair, so to speak. The connection is a very remote one.

MR. DODD: You think the connection about the ridiculing of the Jews is very far afield and pulled in by the hair.

VON SCHIRACH: No. I dispute the statement that this is a Hitler Youth institution. I believe actually it is a day nursery run by the National Socialist Public Welfare Organization or something similar.

MR. DODD: Well, maybe the explanation is that all the young people in Germany saw one of those shows. But, in any event, I want to take up the last matter on this subject with you.

This morning your counsel examined you about the confiscation of a monastery, I believe it was in Austria while you were there, Klosterneuburg. Do you remember?

VON SCHIRACH: We discussed Count Schwarzenberg’s palace this morning. That was not a monastery. It was the property of a private citizen.

MR. DODD: Well, the document that Counsel Dr. Sauter referred to was R-146, USA-678. It was a letter from Bormann to all Gauleiter, and it began by saying that valuable Church properties had to be seized in Italy and in Austria. It was signed by Bormann. And then also on that document was a letter from Lammers saying that there had been some dispute as to whether the seized Church property should go back to the Reich or should remain in your Gau. You remember that, don’t you? Well, now, you seized the monastery down there, didn’t you, in 1941, at Klosterneuburg? Klosterneuburg, you know what I am referring to. I may mispronounce it.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. The well-known foundation Klosterneuburg, the famous monastery, served as a receiving office for collections of works of art taken from our art museum.

MR. DODD: Yes. Now, what excuse did you have for seizing the monastery at that time?

VON SCHIRACH: I can no longer give you exact details with regard to this. I believe there were very few people in the monastery, that the large building was not being used to the fullest possible extent, and that we urgently needed more space for the expansion of the experimental station run in conjunction with our State School of Viniculture. I believe that is why this monastery was confiscated.

MR. DODD: All right. I am going to ask that you look at Document 3927-PS, and I wish you would remember that this morning you told the Tribunal that you stopped the confiscation of churches and Church property in Austria. When you look at this document I wish you to recall your testimony.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you offer M-25 in evidence or not?

MR. DODD: I wish to do so, Mr. President. It is USA-861. And this one, 3927-PS, becomes USA-862.

Now, the first page of this document shows that it is marked secret. It is dated 22 January 1941. It is a letter addressed to Dellbrügge in your organization in Vienna.

He says that he hears there is a possibility of getting a Hitler School, which the city of Hamburg is also trying to get, and that he wants the monastery Klosterneuburg considered as the place for the Hitler School in Vienna. This letter is written by Scharizer, your deputy, as you described him yesterday.

Now, he enclosed a communication, a teletype letter, from Bormann; and if you turn the page, you will see that it is dated 13 January. Bormann says it is strictly confidential:

“It is learned that the population does not show any indignation
when monastery buildings are used to serve what appears to be a
generally appropriate purpose.”

He goes on to say:

“Their conversion into hospitals, convalescent homes,
educational institutes, Adolf Hitler Schools, may be considered
as serving a generally appropriate purpose.”

Now, that communication was dated the 13th of January, and your deputy wrote the letter on the 22d.

Now turn another page, and you will find a Gestapo report on the monastery, dated 23 January 1941, addressed to your assistant Dellbrügge. I wish you would look where it says, “Oral order of 23 January 1941.” Apparently somebody in your organization, you or your assistants, orally asked the Gestapo to get up a report on this monastery the very day that you wrote to Berlin asking that it be considered as a Hitler School.

There are some charges against the inhabitants of that monastery in this Gestapo report, but I ask you to turn over further and you will find where you wrote an order for the taking over of the monastery as an Adolf Hitler School on 22 February 1941. I will show it to you if you like to see it, but that order bears your initials, the original does—Pages 15 to 17 of the photostat that you have.

Now, you framed up an excuse to seize that monastery, didn’t you, when you really wanted it for a Hitler School; and you didn’t have any just grounds for seizing it. And you get the Gestapo to write a report and then you never referred to the reason that the Gestapo framed up for you.

VON SCHIRACH: I myself as head of these schools was naturally extremely anxious to have such a school established in Vienna. At one time the idea expressed here of taking Klosterneuburg and housing one of the Adolf Hitler Schools in it did occur to me, and I probably did discuss it with Herr Scharizer; but I dropped the idea completely. Klosterneuburg was never converted into an Adolf Hitler School.

MR. DODD: No. But it never was turned back to the Church people, either, was it?

VON SCHIRACH: No. Since the museum space available in Vienna was not sufficient for the very large collections, we wanted to turn this monastery into an additional large museum which would be open to the public. We began to carry out this plan, and a great part of the collections was transferred to the building. In addition, we needed the strongly built cellars of this monastery for the safekeeping of the many art treasures which we had to protect against bombing attacks.

It occurred to me that we might house an Adolf Hitler School in this building and I discussed the possibility with one or two of my colleagues and then abandoned it: Firstly, because it would have caused some ill-feeling if we had housed an Adolf Hitler School in a building which had formerly been consecrated ground, and secondly, because we badly needed the monastery for these other purposes.

I have nothing to add to my explanation.

MR. DODD: You will notice the date of that whole transaction and the communication from Bormann. When did you first discover that Bormann was so antireligious and anti-Church as you told the Tribunal he was?

VON SCHIRACH: Bormann...

MR. DODD: Just tell us when you found that out.

VON SCHIRACH: I was just about to. Bormann showed his antireligious views most clearly in 1943; but they had already begun to appear in 1937.

MR. DODD: And this telegram from him was when? 1941?

VON SCHIRACH: 1941.

MR. DODD: Witness, when did you first start to do business with Himmler?

VON SCHIRACH: I met Hitler...

MR. DODD: Himmler.

VON SCHIRACH: I met Himmler in 1929 when I visited the offices of the Party Leadership. At that time he was the propaganda chief of the Party. That was our first meeting.

MR. DODD: I did not really want to know, although it’s of interest, when you first met him. What I really wanted to know was when you with your youth groups started really to do business with him for the first time. And by “business” I mean arrangements such as the recruitment of young men into the Death’s-Head Brigade of the SS.

VON SCHIRACH: I think I explained that this morning. One of the first agreements laid down was, I think, contained in the agreement regarding the patrol service, the date of which I do not recall. This was not, by the way, a guarantee of reinforcements for Death’s-Head units, but for police units generally. These were special troops to be at the disposal of the Police.

MR. DODD: How long did you continue to channel or divert young men from your Youth organization to the SS? When was the last time that you remember this program being effective?

VON SCHIRACH: I did not artfully drive young people into the SS. But I permitted the SS to recruit among young people like any other organization.

MR. DODD: I did not ask you that. I asked you when you would say was the latest date when you were effectively helping, at least, Himmler to get young candidates from the young people of Germany through your Hitler Youth organization. I do not expect an exact date. Approximately?

VON SCHIRACH: From 1940 on I tried constantly to have youth taken into Army units. The SS, the Waffen-SS, carried on very active recruitment among youth up to the last day of the war. I could not prevent this recruitment.

MR. DODD: And you knew what use they were being put to in the last days of the war and in the mid-days of the war, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: I did know that all young people who were drafted or who volunteered had to fight.

MR. DODD: I am talking about something other than fighting. You knew what was going on in the East, and you knew who the guards were in the concentration camps, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: This morning I testified on what I knew about events in the East. I did not know that young men who volunteered to go into the Waffen-SS were used during the war to guard concentration camps.

MR. DODD: You did not know who were the guards there, although you visited two of them yourself?

VON SCHIRACH: Those guards did not belong to the Waffen-SS.

MR. DODD: I know, but your agreement with Himmler provides specifically for recruitment for SS Death’s-Head troops.

VON SCHIRACH: When I concluded that agreement, I did not know that he effected the supervision of concentration camps chiefly by means of Death’s-Head units. Besides, I thought at that time that concentration camps were something quite normal. I said so this morning.

MR. DODD: You told the Tribunal yesterday that it was in 1944, I think, that you found out about the extermination. And I want to talk to you about that a little bit, and ask you some questions. And the first one is, how did you find out? Was it only through this man Colin Ross?

VON SCHIRACH: I said that I heard of it through Colin Ross...

MR. DODD: All right.

VON SCHIRACH: And, furthermore, that I asked numerous questions of everyone I could reach, in order to get definite information.

MR. DODD: Really I asked you if, from any other source, you found out? And you can answer that pretty simply. We know that you found out through Ross. Was there anyone else from whom you found out?

VON SCHIRACH: I could not obtain any really definite information.

MR. DODD: All right.

VON SCHIRACH: Most people had no information. I only received positive—that is, detailed—information by way of the Warthegau.

MR. DODD: Now, as a matter of fact, you got regular reports about the extermination of the Jews, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: These...

MR. DODD: Written reports, I mean.

VON SCHIRACH: These reports, two of which have been submitted in this Court, were sent to the Reich Defense Commissioner for the attention of the expert in question. This expert passed the copies on to the inspector—I believe—or the commander of the regular Police.

I have looked at the copy which was submitted here in Kaltenbrunner’s case but I had never seen it before (Document 3876-PS).

MR. DODD: You mean you did not know that it was arriving in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: I have never seen this text before.

MR. DODD: All right.

VON SCHIRACH: My office was the Central Office; it was not the office of the Reich Defense Commissioner. The affairs of the Reich Defense Commissioner were officially in charge of the Regierungspräsident, whose personal adviser took care of routine matters. My mail was delivered at the Central Office.

MR. DODD: You were the Reich Defense Commissioner for that district, were you not?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

MR. DODD: This was an SS report of a highly confidential nature, was it not? They were not just peddling this all over Germany?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how many copies of this were sent out, I cannot say.

MR. DODD: 100, and you got the sixty-seventh copy.

VON SCHIRACH: And these copies, as I gathered from the original which I saw, were not sent to me but to the competent adviser, a Herr Fischer.

MR. DODD: And who was Herr Fischer?

VON SCHIRACH: I have already told you this morning that I have no idea who this Herr Fischer was. I assume that he was the expert attached to the Regierungspräsident, the expert on defense matters.

MR. DODD: Now, I am going to show you some documents from your own files.

We don’t have a full translation, Mr. President, because some of this we located too late (Document 3914-PS).

But I think you will readily recognize this original is from your files. And in there you will find—and I will direct your attention to the page—something that I think will recall to your mind who Dr. Fischer is.

Now, I think it is on Page 29, you will find the names of persons to serve on the Reich Defense Council submitted; and you will find the name of Fischer, together with General Stülpnagel, Major General Gautier, Dr. Förster—do you find that? This was your own Reich Defense Council, before which you appeared from time to time, and with whom you met frequently. And I will show you documents on that, if you care to deny it.

VON SCHIRACH: Just a moment, please. Will you please repeat the page to me?

MR. DODD: Page 29; it is a memorandum dated 28 September 1940.

VON SCHIRACH: I have it now.

MR. DODD: Do you find the name of Dr. Fischer? You found Dr. Fischer’s name as one of those suggested to your defense council? His is the last name, by the way, and his signature. He is the one that suggested the others to you.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, will you go a little bit more slowly?

MR. DODD: Yes.

VON SCHIRACH: His name is the twentieth name on the list: “Regierungsrat Dr. Fischer, Expert for Reich Defense Matters”—in other words, expert attached to the Regierungspräsident. I have probably seen him at some meeting or other. I take it that he kept the minutes. However, I must admit that I have no personal recollection of this gentleman. I cannot attach any owner to that name; but it is clear to me now that he was the person who took charge of incoming mail for the Reich Defense Commissioner and probably kept the minutes as well.

MR. DODD: All right.

VON SCHIRACH: In view of his junior status—he is only a Regierungsrat—he cannot have held any other appointment on this council.

MR. DODD: On Page 31 of that same file you will find another reference to him, and your initials on the paper this time. It is the membership list of the Reich Defense Council. There are 20 persons on there, and the last name is Fischer’s. And at the bottom of the page are your initials, apparently approving the list. Do you see that?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes; I had to initial this list.

MR. DODD: And you approved the membership, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot swear that I would not recognize Dr. Fischer again if I were confronted with him. He seems to have been the official who kept the minutes. However, among the large circle of people who attended meetings of this kind, he did not come to my attention. Only very few Reich defense meetings of this sort actually took place. What seems to me the decisive point is that he did not report to me personally but to the Regierungspräsident.

MR. DODD: How could you fail to meet him? You met regularly in 1940 with this Reich Defense Council. We have some documents here, and I will be glad to show them to you, showing exactly what you said before that council.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, as I said, he probably kept the minutes of the meetings.

MR. DODD: Well surely, then, you saw him certainly on some occasions, between 1940, the date of these files, and 1942, the date of the SS reports on the exterminations. He apparently was with you for 2 years before the first report that we have, which is dated 1942, and he was 1 of 20 on your council.

VON SCHIRACH: I believe I must describe the exact composition of this Reich Defense Council. There were the leading commanding generals of the Army and the Luftwaffe; there were various Gauleiter; there were the people mentioned here; there was Dr. Putt, the representative of the Economic Management Staff and all the others who are listed here. In this large circle of people, whom I had to welcome, there was an official who kept the minutes and who was one of many officials in my office. These meetings, as you have probably ascertained, took place very infrequently. Dr. Fischer did not report to me currently, nor did he submit to me the minutes of these sessions; the Regierungspräsident reported to me.

MR. DODD: Do you think that Heinrich Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich were sending these reports to inferior people around Germany in these Gaue about the exterminations in the East?

VON SCHIRACH: If these reports had been meant for me, they would have been sent to me directly. Moreover, I said today that I do not dispute having been informed of the shooting of Jews in the East, but at a later period. I mentioned that in connection with the war. However, the reports themselves were not in my hands. If these reports had been before me, they would have had a certain note, which I would recognize immediately.

MR. DODD: Well, let’s see. Of course they are addressed to you, to the attention of Fischer.

But I am going to move on a little bit. Now I am going to tell you that you got weekly reports. You haven’t seen these. What do you say to that?

VON SCHIRACH: Weekly reports?

MR. DODD: Yes.

VON SCHIRACH: I received innumerable weekly reports from every possible office.

MR. DODD: No, I am talking about one kind of report. I am talking about the reports from Heydrich and Himmler.

VON SCHIRACH: I do not know what you mean.

MR. DODD: Well, you had better take a look (Document 3943-PS). We have 55 of them, for 55 weeks. They are all here, and they run consecutively, and Dr. Fischer is not involved in these. And each one bears the stamp of your office having received it on it, and the date that it was received.

They tell, by the way—and you can look at them—what was happening to the Jews in the East.

VON SCHIRACH: All these probably—I cannot look at them all just now. These reports went from the Chief of the Security Police to the Office of the Reich Defense Commissioner. They were not, as I can tell from the first document, initialed by myself, but bear the initials of the Regierungspräsident. I did not receive these reports; otherwise my initial would have to be there.

MR. DODD: Dr. Dellbrügge was the man who received them, according to the note, and he was your chief assistant. Incidentally, I think we ought to make this clear to the Tribunal, both of your chief assistants were SS Brigadeführer, were they not?

VON SCHIRACH: I should in any case have stated that Dr. Dellbrügge was one of Himmler’s confidants; but I believe...

MR. DODD: And he was your chief assistant, that is the point I am making. And so was your other chief assistant, also an SS Brigadeführer.

VON SCHIRACH: I believe that this statement proves the opposite of what you want to prove against me.

MR. DODD: Well, I am going to go on with these weekly reports in a minute, but there is one thing I do want to ask you.

Were you pretty friendly with Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: I knew Heydrich, and while he was Reich Protector in Prague he extended an invitation to me as President of the Southeastern Europe Society to hold a meeting there which I accepted. However, I did not have close personal contact with Heydrich.

MR. DODD: Did you think he was a good public servant at the time that he was terrorizing Czechoslovakia?

VON SCHIRACH: I had the impression that Heydrich, as he said himself during my stay in Prague, wanted to carry out a policy of conciliation, especially in regard to Czech workers. I did not see in him an exponent of a policy of terror. Of course, I have no practical knowledge of the incidents which took place in Czechoslovakia. I made only this one visit, or possibly one further visit.

MR. DODD: You sent a telegram to “Dear Martin Bormann” when Heydrich was assassinated; do you remember that—the man who was, I understand, not in your good standing in 1942? Do you remember when Heydrich was assassinated by some Czech patriots in Prague?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

MR. DODD: Do you remember what you did when you heard about it?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember exactly.

MR. DODD: Perhaps if I read you this telegram you will remember it.

“To Reichsleiter Bormann, Berlin, Party Chancellery; Express.
Urgent. Immediate attention.

“Dear Martin Bormann:

“I request that the following be submitted to the Führer.

“Knowing the Czech population and its attitude in Vienna as well
as in the Protectorate, I would draw your attention to the
following:

“The enemy powers and the British cliques around Beneš have for
a long time felt bitter about the co-operation generally found
among the Czech workers and their contribution to the German war
economy. They are seeking for a means to play off the Czech
population and the Reich against each other. The attack on
Heydrich was undoubtedly planned in London. The British arms of
the assailant suggest parachuted agents. London hopes by means
of this murder to induce the Reich to take extreme measures with
the aim of bringing about a resistance movement among Czech
workers. In order to prevent the world from thinking that the
population of the Protectorate is in opposition to Hitler, these
acts must immediately be branded as of British authorship. A
sudden and violent air attack on a British cultural town would
be most effective and the world would have learned of this
through the headline ‘Revenge for Heydrich.’ That alone should
induce Churchill to desist immediately from the procedure begun
in Prague of stirring up revolt. The Reich replies to the attack
at Prague by a counterattack on world public opinion.

“It is suggested that the following information be given the
press tomorrow regarding the attempt on Heydrich’s life.”

And then you go on to say that it was the work of British agents and that it originated in Britain. You sign it, “Heil Hitler, Dein Schirach.”

Do you remember sending that telegram to Bormann?

VON SCHIRACH: I have just been listening to the English translation. I should like to see the German original, please.

MR. DODD: Very well.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you read, I thought, a British “coastal” town, did you not?

MR. DODD: No, “cultural” I meant to say, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is what I have got.

MR. DODD: Yes, it is “cultural.”

Incidentally, I call your attention, Mr. Witness, to the word “cultural.” You have expressed such a great interest in culture.

THE PRESIDENT: Would it be all right to break off now, or do you want to go on?

MR. DODD: I had hoped I could finish. I won’t be many minutes, but I do have one or two rather important documents that I would like to put to the witness.

Mr. President, if we recess, may I ask that the witness not be talked to by his counsel overnight? I think it is only fair, when a witness is under cross-examination, that he not have conversations with his counsel.

VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say to this document...

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to have this question clarified as to whether as defense counsel I am entitled to talk with my client or not. Mr. Dodd forbade me to talk to my client some time ago; and, of course, I acquiesced. But, if I am told that I must not speak to my client until the end of the cross-examination and the cross-examination is to be continued on Monday, that means that I cannot speak with my client tomorrow or the day after. But, in order to carry on his defense, I must have an opportunity of discussing with my client all the points raised here today.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will withdraw my request. I really forgot we were going over until Monday. I do think it is the ordinary rule, but I do think it might present some difficulty for the counsel here.

I want to be fair with the Tribunal. During the recess Dr. Sauter approached the witness stand and I did tell him then that I did not think he should talk to him during the recess while he was under cross-examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is the British rule, but I think in the circumstances we had better let Dr. Sauter...

MR. DODD: I quite agree. I was thinking we would go on tomorrow, but I do not want to interfere with his consultation over the weekend.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 27 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-NINTH DAY
Monday, 27 May 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Von Schirach resumed the stand._]

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to make certain that I did offer the following documents in evidence: 3914-PS, which becomes USA-863; 3943-PS, USA-864; and 3877-PS, USA-865.

MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, at the close of the session on Friday we had just handed to you a copy of the teletype message to Martin Bormann. I had read it to you over this transmission system. I wish to ask you now if you sent that message to Bormann.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I dispatched that teletype message, and I should like to give an explanation in this connection. First...

MR. DODD: May I interrupt you just for a minute and ask that for the little while that we will be talking today, that you wait just a minute after your answer. I think it would help a little bit with the interpreting. I do not think we will have any trouble this morning. I will try to do the same thing, and perhaps we will work a little better together.

VON SCHIRACH: First of all, then, I want to explain why I addressed Bormann with “Du,” in the friendly form. Bormann and I come from the same town; I knew him from Weimar, but only slightly. And when in 1928 or ’29 he came to Munich, he paid me a visit, and because he was the elder of us he suggested to me that we should call one another “Du.” We maintained that form until 1943, when on his own initiative he dropped it and addressed me in his letters only with “Sie.”

Now, the text of this teletype message: We were in the third year of the war; the Czech population both in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and in Vienna had remained perfectly quiet; in the Protectorate conditions were almost like those in peacetime. I had a very large Czech population in Vienna, and as a result of the attempt on Heydrich’s life I feared that in the Protectorate there might be unrest which would no doubt have serious repercussions in Vienna. This was the time when German troops were advancing on the peninsula of Kerch; it was a time when we could not afford to have anything happen behind our front. And simultaneously with the news of the murder of the Protector I received official notification that the attempt, as is mentioned in this document, had been carried out by British agents and with British weapons.

During the same month we heard, and it was also mentioned in the Wehrmacht communiqués, that British bombers had bombed residential areas in Hamburg and Paris and had attacked German cultural sites at Kiel. And so I suggested a reprisal measure to establish before the world British guilt in this attempt and to prevent serious unrest in Czechoslovakia. That is all I have to say. This teletype message is genuine.

May I at this point also comment on a difficulty of translation which occurred during the last cross-examination on Friday? The German word “Retter” was at that time translated into the English “savior.” It is an expression which I used in my book when I described the Führer as a “Retter,” and the difficulty lies in the translation of that word into English: it can only be translated into English as “savior.” But retranslated into German, “savior” means “Heiland.” In order to make quite clear what the German “Retter” is meant to express in English, I should have to use an explanatory phrase. If I say that the exact translation is “rescuer,” then the real meaning of the word “Retter” is clearly set forth; and there is nothing blasphemous in the comparison or the description of the head of the State as a “rescuer.” But if I had written in German that the head of the State was a “Heiland,” then, of course, that would be blasphemy.

THE PRESIDENT: This sort of explanation should be kept for re-examination. It is not a matter which ought to interrupt the cross-examination.

MR. DODD: Now, I have only one or two questions to ask you in addition about this message.

Were you thinking of some particular cultural city in Britain, like Cambridge, Oxford, Stratford, Canterbury?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I had no definite plan in mind. I thought that one ought to choose an objective corresponding to the sites hit by British bombers in Germany.

MR. DODD: As long as it was a cultural city. Were you thinking of what happened in Germany or of what happened to Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: I was thinking of the cultural buildings in Germany which had been attacked, and I wanted to suggest this as an opportunity to make clear unmistakably that the murder of Heydrich had not been committed by the Czech population but by the Czech emigrants in London with British support. This retaliation in the third year of the war was to be a reply both to the attempt against Heydrich and to the attacks on German cultural monuments.

MR. DODD: You did not make any reference in this telegram to any so-called or alleged bombings of cultural objects in Germany, did you?

VON SCHIRACH: The Wehrmacht communiqués had already announced them, and they were generally known.

MR. DODD: That is not what I asked you. I asked if it is not a fact that in this teletype you made no reference at all to the alleged bombing of cultural objects in Germany, nor did you relate your suggestion for the bombing of a cultural town in England to any alleged cultural bombing in Germany, but rather, you made it perfectly clear that you wanted to strike at a cultural town in England because of what had happened to Heydrich. That is so, is it not?

VON SCHIRACH: It was not at all necessary for me to point to the bombing of German cultural sites. It was a fact known to the entire German population from the daily attacks of British bombers.

MR. DODD: I suppose by this time you knew very well the general reputation of Heydrich, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct. I considered Heydrich in this particular case as the representative of the Reich in Bohemia and Moravia and not as the Chief of the Gestapo.

MR. DODD: Did you know his general reputation in Germany at least at that time?

VON SCHIRACH: I knew that he was the Chief of the Gestapo. I did not know that he had committed the atrocities which have meanwhile become known.

MR. DODD: You had no knowledge that he was considered “the terror of the Gestapo”?

VON SCHIRACH: That is an expression which enemy propaganda used against him.

MR. DODD: You mean you still think it is propaganda?

VON SCHIRACH: No.

MR. DODD: Well, was it through enemy propaganda that you heard that he was called a terror before he was killed in 1942?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not want to say that...

MR. DODD: How did you know it?

VON SCHIRACH: I merely want to state here that for me the Reich Protector Heydrich was during this third year of the war a person other than the Chief of the Gestapo. This was a political matter.

MR. DODD: You did not content yourself with this suggestion to bomb England, did you? Do you recall what else you suggested not long afterwards?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not know.

MR. DODD: Do you recall anything that you either suggested or did by way of further so-called retaliation for the assassination of Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: No. I have no recollection.

MR. DODD: You suggested evacuating all the Czechs out of Vienna, did you not?

VON SCHIRACH: This is a suggestion which did not originate with me personally, but which goes back to a remark about Vienna which the Führer himself had made in 1940 while I was reporting to him at his headquarters. I think I already mentioned during my own testimony that he said, “Vienna must become a German city and the Jews and Czechs must gradually be evacuated from Vienna.” I already said that during my own testimony here.

MR. DODD: My question is: Is it not a fact that a few days after the assassination of Heydrich you suggested the evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna as a retaliatory measure for the assassination of Heydrich?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it, but it is possible that in the excitement of this event, which disquieted me greatly, I said something like that.

MR. DODD: I suggest that you take a look at Document 3886-PS, which becomes USA-866, Mr. President.

Now, this document consists of excerpts from the record of a meeting of the Vienna City Council on 6 June 1942, as you will see on Page 9 of the original. You were present, and according to these notes, you spoke as Reichsleiter Baldur von Schirach and, moving down towards the bottom of that page, you will find this statement:

“Finally, he”—meaning you—“disclosed that already in the
latter part of summer or in the fall of this year all Jews would
be removed from the city, and that the removal of the Czechs
would then get under way, since this is the necessary and right
answer to the crime committed against the Deputy Reich Protector
of Bohemia and Moravia.”

Do you remember saying that?

VON SCHIRACH: I have no exact recollection, but I consider that these records here are genuine, and they probably represent the sense of what I said at the time. I was very much perturbed by Heydrich’s death. I was afraid of serious trouble in Bohemia and Moravia, and I expressed my fears. The essential thing is that after calm consideration of this plan I dropped it, and did nothing more about it.

MR. DODD: Well, in any event, I think it is perfectly clear—and I ask you if you do not agree—that you made two suggestions at least: one for the bombing of a cultural English town and the other for the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna, because of the assassination of this man Heydrich.

VON SCHIRACH: It is true that I put the idea of such an evacuation of the Czechs into words. It is equally true, and a historical fact, that I dropped the idea and that it was never carried out. It is correct that I suggested the bombing of a British cultural site as an answer to the attempt against Heydrich and to the innumerable bombardments of German cultural places in the third year of the war, at a time when vital interests of the German people were at stake.

MR. DODD: Incidentally, Hitler also suggested the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Czechoslovakia as a punishment for the murder of Heydrich, did he not?

VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know.

MR. DODD: Now I want to turn to something else and see if we can get through here rather soon this morning. You recall that on Friday we talked a little bit about your relationship with the SS and with Himmler, and I want to ask you this morning if it is not a fact, Mr. Witness, that you worked very closely with Himmler and his SS from almost the earliest days right down to almost the last days of your regime in Vienna. I wish you would answer that question.

VON SCHIRACH: I should very much like to answer that question in great detail.

MR. DODD: It does not require great detail in the first answer, but later, if you feel that you have some necessary explanation, I am sure you will be permitted to do so. Will you tell the Tribunal first of all, rather, if it is not a fact that you did closely co-operate with Himmler and his SS from the earliest days of your public office to the very late days of your public office?

VON SCHIRACH: Close collaboration in the sense that Himmler had considerable influence upon education did not exist.

MR. DODD: Let us stop right there and inquire a little bit. Is it not a fact that Himmler assigned his SS personnel to your youth organization for the training purpose of your young people? You can answer that very simply. Did he or did he not?

VON SCHIRACH: For training purposes?

MR. DODD: Yes.

VON SCHIRACH: I am not aware of anything like that. The fact that there might have been liaison officers would not be unusual, because practically all ministries and organizations had liaison officers. What you have just suggested, however, I do not recall.

MR. DODD: I think we had better clear this up first, and I ask you that you look at Document 3931-PS, which is a new document which becomes USA-867, Mr. President.

Now, Mr. Witness, if you will look at this document, you will observe that it is a message which you sent to “Dear Party Member Bormann” in August of 1941. It is quite long, and there will not be any necessity, I am sure, for reading all of it, but I want to direct your attention to some parts of it that might help your memory with respect to the SS.

By way of preliminary question, the SA apparently had suggested that it take over some of the training of young people, had it not, some time in the summer of 1941?

VON SCHIRACH: I said in my testimony—I think on Thursday—that already in the spring of 1939, I believe, the SA had attempted to take over the premilitary training of the youth of the two older age classes, and such attempts were probably repeated in 1941.

MR. DODD: Yes, I knew you were complaining to Bormann about it when you wrote this message. You recall now, do you not, from just looking at the letter, that that is the whole substance of the letter—a complaint about the attempt of the SA to directly control the training of some young people in the Hitler Youth organization.

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot speak about this long teletype letter without having read through it.

MR. DODD: Well, let us see. If you will turn to the second page of the English text—you do not have any pages there; I think it is all one. It is all a teletype, but it will be not too far down on the first part of it. First of all, I want to have you see if you can find the statement that “the Hitler Youth has considered it necessary from the very beginning to make the Party itself the agency for the direction and administration of its military training.” Do you find that passage?

VON SCHIRACH: No.

MR. DODD: Well, you will find the paragraph numbered (1) on your teletype, small Arabic number one. You will find they start to be numbered (1), (2), (3), and so on. Do you find that, Mr. Witness?

VON SCHIRACH: I have Roman numeral I.

MR. DODD: All right. That is what I want to call your attention to. If we hit some place that we agree on, then we can move on. You found that Number (1) that says that “for more than one year an agreement in draft form has been submitted to the SA which requests that the SA cadre be furnished for the military training of the youth,” and that the SA leadership did not comply with this request.

Now, will you move down further, let me see, in Number (3), and then following (3), probably down another whole length three or four paragraphs, you will find—it is in capital letters, by the way—what I want to call your attention to; I assume it is in capital letters in the German:

“I would be happy if the SA would put personnel at my disposal
for support for this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS
and the Police have been doing for a long time already.”

In the English, Mr. President, that is at the bottom of Page 4 and the top of Page 5.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Did you find that sentence?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

MR. DODD: You say there that you would be happy if the SA would put personnel at your disposal for support of this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time already, and you are referring—if you will read back to the paragraph just ahead of that sentence—to the training of the young people. You talk about Hitler Schools and the training of Hitler Youth. Now, it is perfectly clear, is it not, that you did have assistance from the SS, according to your own words, from the SS and Police, for a long time before you sent this message?

VON SCHIRACH: During the war, yes; since the beginning of the war in 1939 we had premilitary training camps and I wanted youth instructors for these camps. Neither the Army nor the SA could supply sufficient instructors; the SS and the Police could place a few young officers at my disposal.

MR. DODD: So it was only from the beginning of the war that you had personnel from the SS and Police for the training of young people, was it?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not think that there would have been need for SS instructors otherwise. As I have said, we selected youth leaders from among youth itself.

MR. DODD: I ask you again, do you want the Tribunal to understand that it was only from the beginning of the war that you had the assistance of SS and Police personnel assigned to your youth organization for the training of young people?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that question definitely for this reason: we had for example a training camp for skiing practice, and it was quite possible that one of the instructors was an SA man or an SS man only because by chance he happened to be one of the best sportsmen in that field. But I cannot think where such collaboration existed elsewhere.

MR. DODD: Are you able to say that you did not have SS personnel assigned for training purposes; and I am not talking about some isolated skimaster, I am talking about a regular program of assistance from the SS to you in your training of young people.

VON SCHIRACH: As far as premilitary training is concerned, it was only through this teletype message that I requested help for training purposes. Apart from that, I do not recollect any collaboration.

MR. DODD: Do you know the term “Heuaktion”?

VON SCHIRACH: Heuaktion? I do not remember it. I do not know what is meant by that.