Chapter XXVII: Book 4: , Page 28 of the English book, and just look at Captain (18)

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have denied that the Hitler Youth played an important part in the Fifth Column in Poland. Similar methods were carried out especially in Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav Government has put at the disposal of the Soviet Prosecution documents which estimated the part of the “Hitler Youth on Duty,” under the leadership of the Hitler Jugend, in the organization of the Fifth Column on Yugoslav territory. Do you have any knowledge of this? Do you know anything about this?

VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was never active in the Fifth Column either in Yugoslavia or anywhere else.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will then quote excerpts from the official report of the Yugoslav Government. This has already been submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-36. I quote from Page 3 of the Russian text of this document:

“The Reich Government and the Hitler Party have secretly
organized the German minority. From 1930 they had their own
organization, the ‘Union of Culture.’ Already in 1932 Dr. Jacob
Awender held the view that the ‘Union of Culture’ should be
Fascist in its outlook. In 1935 he was put at the head of an
active youth organization which shortly afterwards received the
name of ‘Organization of Revival.’”

Do you know anything about this?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot comment on the information which you have just mentioned. I heard that Bohle had some youth leaders there as his representatives, but I do not know any details. On the subject of Yugoslavia I can tell you from my previous activity that my relations with Yugoslav youth were very amiable and friendly in the period before the war.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not interested in that. I will try to help your memory by quoting a few excerpts from a supplementary report of the Yugoslav Government, which is submitted to the Tribunal as Yugoslav Exhibit, Document Number USSR-357. On Page 5, in the third line of the Russian text of this document, it says:

“In 1937 there began among the Volksdeutsche in our country an
orientation towards National Socialism, and the first groups of
youth started going to Germany for special courses of
instruction.”

Further down on Page 8, we read that later on, but before the war with the Soviet Union, the greater part of these members became officers of the German Army. In addition, a special SS division, “Prinz Eugen,” was formed from among members of the youth organizations. Do you deny these facts?

VON SCHIRACH: I can admit some; others I must deny. May I explain this? Since 1933 I tried to bring about good relations with Yugoslav youth. Starting in 1936 or 1937 I extended invitations to Yugoslav youth groups, as well as to youth groups of all European countries, to visit and inspect German youth institutions. Yugoslav youth groups actually came to Germany in reply to my invitation. But I know nothing about the enlisting of Yugoslav youths in the German Army; I do not believe that. I can only say that at the time of the regency of Prince Regent Paul there was very close collaboration with Yugoslav youth. During the war we maintained good relations with both Serbian and Croatian youth. German youth visited Serbia and Croatia, while Serbian and Croatian youth came to German youth camps, German youth leader training schools, and so on, and looked at our institutions. That, I think, is everything I can say about this. But we had friendly relations not only with Yugoslavia but also with many other countries.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not understand me correctly. I was not speaking of Yugoslav or Croatian youth. I am speaking of the youth of the German minority in Yugoslavia who are mentioned in this report and who, with the help of the Hitler Youth, created centers of Fifth Column activity to engage in subversive operations and recruit for the SS units and the Wehrmacht. That is what I am speaking about. Are these facts known to you?

VON SCHIRACH: I know that there were young people among the German minority in Yugoslavia, just as in Romania and Hungary. I know that this German youth felt that it belonged to the Hitler Youth, and I think it is perfectly natural that these young people welcomed the German troops on their arrival. I cannot give information on the extent to which collaboration existed between the troops and the youth, but that it did exist is also quite natural. Of course, it could not be considered military collaboration, but rather the kind of co-operation which will always exist between an occupying force and the youth of the same country or nationality as the members of that force. But that has nothing to do with espionage or the like.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the major part of the SS Division “Prinz Eugen” which was formed on Yugoslav territory was made up of Hitler Youth members from the German national minority in Yugoslavia; and this was the result of the preparatory work of the Hitler Youth. Do you admit that?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how the divisions of the Waffen-SS, of which there were very many, were recruited. It is possible that some members of the German minority were recruited then and there, but I have no definite information on this.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will quote a few excerpts from two German documents. They have not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. The first excerpt is from a book by Dr. Sepp Janko who was the youth leader in Yugoslavia, entitled _Speeches and Articles._ He wrote:

“All our national work before 1 September 1939 depended on the
help of the Reich. When on 1 September 1939 the war began and it
at first appeared impossible to receive further aid, there was a
danger that all our work would be interrupted....”

And later:

“The fact that in this cause, so decisive for a nation and its
worth, I put at the disposal of the Führer almost the entire
German national group in the former State of Yugoslavia and gave
him so many volunteers as soldiers, is to me a subject of great
pride....”

I submit this to the Tribunal as evidence; Exhibit USSR-459.

The next excerpt is from an article, “We in the Batchka,” written in 1943 by Otto Kohler who was leader of German youth in that territory. I submit this document to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-456. Otto Kohler wrote in that article:

“Ninety percent of our youth are members of the Hitler Youth,
the youth organization for Germans abroad.”

The statements ought to convince you that the subversive activity and organization of the Fifth Column, the “nazification” of the German minority and its enlistment in military units were actually carried out on Yugoslav territory through the Hitler Youth. Please answer “yes” or “no.”

VON SCHIRACH: No. But I should like to comment on these documents. This Dr. Sepp Janko who is said to have been the leader of the Volksdeutsche in Yugoslavia is not known to me either by name or personally. I have visited Yugoslavia several times in the past, but neither in 1937, when I believe I was there for the first time, nor later in 1938 when I visited Prince Regent Paul, did I concern myself with the Volksdeutsche youth there or with their leaders. On those visits I spoke only with youth of Yugoslav nationality. That is all I have to say about the first document, which on the whole does not refer to youth at all.

The second document, which is signed by one Otto Kohler, who calls himself the “D. J. leader”—probably German youth leader—in Subdivision 7, to that document I can only say that it was taken from a book about German youth in Hungary which appeared in 1943. In the Batchka we had a very large settlement of Germans, people who had been living there for 150 or 200 years, and this youth leader organized the German youth there with the approval of the Hungarian Government and the Hungarian Minister of Education and in collaboration with other Hungarian authorities. It was an entirely legal measure, and no controversy existed about it between the two countries. These young people were not members of the German Hitler Youth, but they belonged to Hungarian youth groups of the German minority in Hungary.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: And did the Reich Leadership of Hitler Youth have no connection at all with such organizations abroad?

VON SCHIRACH: Of course we visited these youths. When, for instance, I was a guest in Budapest, the Hungarians themselves asked me whether I would like to visit the villages and the youth of the German minority. Neither the Regent nor any other government authority had any objections to this. There was no reason why I should ask German youth leaders to engage in espionage in Hungary. I could just as easily have asked Hungarian youth leaders with whom I was on very good terms.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Who was the leader of the Hitler Youth organizations abroad? There was a special foreign section in the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth. Its task was the direction of the German youth organizations abroad, was it not?

VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership was, if I may say so, the “foreign office” of the younger generation. It was the task of the foreign office to maintain contact with other national youth organizations, to invite youth leaders from abroad, to organize tours of foreign youth organizations through Germany, and to arrange visits of German youth to other countries, in co-operation with the foreign offices of those countries; in a case like this, the foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership would approach the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office would approach the ambassador or representative of the country involved. The Organization of Youth Abroad to which you are referring was an organization subordinate to the Organization of Germans Abroad, the head of which was Gauleiter Bohle, who has already been heard in this court. This youth abroad consisted of German nationals who formed units of the Hitler Youth in the countries where they were living. For instance in Budapest the children of the German colony, starting with the children of the German Minister...

THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Defendant, it is not necessary to make such a long speech about it.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You are giving too many details. The next question:

In the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories, a special youth department was created in the first main office. What do you know about the work of this department and what was its relationship to the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth? Please answer briefly.

VON SCHIRACH: From my knowledge, I can say that when the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories was created, Reichsleiter Rosenberg expressed a wish that the Reich Youth Leader should put at his disposal an official for the youth department in the new Ministry. This official was appointed; he was taken into the Ministry and directed its youth department. He was, of course, responsible to the Eastern Minister. I cannot say more about this point. Reports from this department did not reach me.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mean that the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth appointed a representative to a post in the Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories, and that this gentleman did not send in any report to the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: General, I meant that the head of this department or whatever he was, this official in the Eastern Ministry who came from the Hitler Youth, did not report to me. He naturally reported to his immediate superiors in the Reich Youth Leadership. The Reich Youth Leadership was located in Berlin, and I assume that the officials of its staff were in constant touch with him.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: As I understand it, the measures that were carried out by the youth department in the Reich Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories were carried out with the knowledge of the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: The measures taken there were carried out according to directions laid down by the Reich Minister, who was the immediate superior of his officials. If actual youth measures, the treatment of youth, and so on, were dealt with, I am sure that this official or youth leader discussed the matter with the Reich Youth Leadership and made a report to it. The Minister is always responsible for the youth official in his Ministry, and not the organization from which the youth official happens to come.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. To the question put to you by your defense counsel regarding the participation of the Hitler Youth in the atrocities committed in Lvov, you answered that the testimony of the French citizen, Ida Vasseau, supplied by the Extraordinary State Commission, is not true.

Mr. President, the Soviet Prosecution has had occasion to interrogate the witness Ida Vasseau. The defense counsel for the Defendant Schirach also requested an interrogation. I now submit to the Tribunal excerpts from the testimony of the witness Vasseau, dated 16 May 1946, and I would like to submit it as Exhibit USSR-455. I shall now read the excerpts into the record:

“The atrocities against the Jewish and the Soviet population of
Lvov were perpetrated not only by adult Germans and old Nazis,
but also by the German youth of the Fascist youth organization
in Lvov. These youngsters, dressed in uniforms, armed with heavy
sticks, hunting knives, and often with pistols, ran about the
streets, broke into Jewish apartments and destroyed everything
in them. They killed all the inhabitants of these apartments,
including the children. Very often they stopped children who
looked suspicious to them in the streets, shouted: “Stop, you
damned Jew!” and shot them on the spot. This Hitlerite youth was
often active in locating Jewish apartments, hunting Jews in
hiding, setting traps, and assaulting innocent people on the
streets, killing them if they were Jews and dragging others away
to the Gestapo. Often their victims were Russians, Poles,
Ukrainians, and people of other nationalities. This terror of
adult and young Germans continued until the last day of the
German occupation of Lvov. The intention of completely
annihilating the Jews was especially apparent in the “Ghetto
actions” in which Jewish children of various ages were
systematically killed. They were put into houses specially set
up for Jewish children and when sufficient children had been
assembled, the Gestapo accompanied by the Hitler Youth broke in
and killed them.”

I end the reading of the statement of Ida Vasseau.

Thus, the Hitler Youth in the service of the German army, SS and the Gestapo took part in these atrocities. Do you admit that?

VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe a word of what is contained in this document.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, that is your affair.

Mr. President, I am submitting to the Tribunal another document, USSR-454, excerpts from the testimony of the German prisoner of war Gert Bruno Knittel.

Gert Bruno Knittel, a hatter by trade, was born in 1924 in Saxony. After 1938 he was a member of the Hitler Youth. His sister Ursula was also a member of the National Socialist League of German Girls (BDM). In 1942, when he was 18 years old, he was called up for the German Army. Thus, he is a typical representative of the Hitler Youth, and his testimony is therefore of interest. This is what he relates about his service in the German Army. I quote:

“Not less than twice a week we were called upon to comb out the
forests.”

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I must object against the use of this document of which we have just received a copy. It does not appear from this copy whether the document was actually signed, whether it was sworn or who drew up this document, which seems to be a report. I must object to this document until these questions have been clarified.

Perhaps in this connection, Mr. President, I might comment on the other document which contains the testimony of Ida Vasseau—the writing is difficult to read. I assume that this witness is identical with the French national Ida Vasseau to whom a questionnaire was sent a long time ago with the permission of the Tribunal. We have been constantly waiting for the answers to this questionnaire, and now today we receive this report dated 16 May 1946, which apparently refers to the same witness. It is obvious that...

THE PRESIDENT: I am not following quite what you are saying. Are you saying that you have issued a questionnaire to the person who is alleged to have made this document?

DR. SAUTER: The High Tribunal approved a questionnaire to a French woman, Ida Vasseau; I will spell the name, V-a-s-s-e-a-u. This is the French woman, Ida Vasseau, who was working in an establishment in Lvov, and who is mentioned in the Lvov Commission report. Perhaps you remember, Mr. President, that one of these reports says that children were taken from the ghetto and given to the Hitler Youth and that the Hitler Youth used these children as live targets. That is the statement of the witness Ida Vasseau, and I am sure that she is the same person who is now mentioned in the report of 16 May 1946. The remarkable thing is that in the report of 16 May 1946, she does not answer the questions which are set down in the questionnaire, but makes further allegations which are obviously not contained in the earlier Lvov Commission report. This is a very mysterious matter, and I believe it would not be just to the Defendant Von Schirach if I did not call your attention to these contradictions.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: May I give my explanation?

THE PRESIDENT: We would like to hear you in detail, General, in answer to what Dr. Sauter has said.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Ida Vasseau, excerpts from whose statement I have read, is certainly the person of whom Dr. Sauter is speaking. I do not know to whom and through what channels the interrogatory was sent; it was not sent through our office. Ida Vasseau was interrogated on our own initiative and we could do so only on 16 May. A special interrogatory was not received by us, and we could not have sent it because the evidence was given only...

THE PRESIDENT: I have only got this document here in German and it doesn’t appear to be a document signed or made by a person called “Vasseau” at all. I don’t know whether it is dealing with something that Ida Vasseau is alleged to have said.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed.

THE PRESIDENT: I said it wasn’t signed by Vasseau.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed by Ida Vasseau-Thom and also by the interrogating officials, namely the Chief of the Investigation Branch, Public Prosecutor’s Department for the Lvov Region, Kryzanovsky, and the public prosecutor for the Lvov Region, Kornetov. The interrogation took place on 16 May 1946.

THE PRESIDENT: Look at this document and see if it is the right document.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, these are excerpts from the interrogation of Ida Vasseau.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that the same document?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, that is the same document which we are now submitting to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that the original you have got before you?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, this is an excerpt from the record, certified by the Chief of Documentation of the Soviet Delegation, Colonel Karev. This is not the original record of the interrogatory. These are excerpts from it.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which is admissible under Article 21 or what are you saying about it?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: We are submitting it. If the Tribunal considers that it is necessary to bring out the original of the record, which at the present moment is at Lvov, we will be able to do so in a short time. If the Tribunal is not satisfied with these excerpts, we will very easily be able to submit the record in full.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell us what the document is? Is it an affidavit? Is it sworn to? Is it made before an official of the Soviet Union?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: There is a note on the record referring to the responsibility for false testimony, as set forth under Article 89 of the Penal Code of the Ukrainian S.S.R. This warning is in accordance with the requirements for legal procedure in the Soviet Union, and this warning was given to Ida Vasseau, as a special certification on the record shows.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which falls within Article 21 of the Charter?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but if the Tribunal consider it necessary, we will later be able to submit the complete original record.

I am now asking the Tribunal to accept the excerpts from this record which have been certified by the Chief of our Documentation Division.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, what is the date on which your interrogatory was allowed by the Tribunal and what was the date on which it was sent out to this person?

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the interrogatory bears the date of 11 April.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: The interrogatory could not be sent because we did not know where the witness Vasseau was. We only discovered it recently.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean that the interrogatory has not been administered to the person who made this statement?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This interrogatory could not have reached its destination because, I repeat, until quite recently the whereabouts of the witness Vasseau was unknown.

THE PRESIDENT: When you did find out where the witness was, the interrogatory could have been administered.

GEN; ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, it can be sent to her. It can be done now if it is necessary.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I point out the following: This woman, Ida Vasseau, was in Lvov when this statement which is mentioned in the Commission Report was made; that is clear from the report. I believe it is USSR-6, but I am not quite certain. Now, on 16 May of this year, this woman, Ida Vasseau, was also at Lvov; and her whereabouts were not unknown, since she was interrogated on that day. I had discussed the interrogatory which was sent to Vasseau with the Prosecution; it was at first said that the questions were suggestive or that something was not in order. But we came to terms and I altered the questions which I submitted to the High Tribunal according to the wishes of the Prosecution; so if the Soviet Delegation were willing, Ida Vasseau could be interrogated at any time. It is remarkable that in this later statement, this woman testified on something entirely different from what is set forth in her previous statement, and something entirely different from what she was asked in the interrogatory. I think it would be useful if Ida Vasseau were examined here.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, what previous statement do you mean? What previous statements do you mean?

DR. SAUTER: The statement in the commission report of the City of Lvov. This commission report was read here once and it says that the Hitler Youth committed these outrages against the children; my questionnaire, which the Tribunal approved, deals with this point.

THE PRESIDENT: General, was the interrogatory submitted by Dr. Sauter shown to the witness Vasseau?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, it was not sent to her. May I, to clarify the matter, come back to the history of this interrogatory? The Soviet Prosecution submitted a document, the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission on German Atrocities in the Lvov Region, and this document contained a statement by the witness Ida Vasseau; no one interrogated her at that time. In this statement she said that she witnessed how the Hitler Youth used small children as targets. That was her statement in the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission. This document was accepted by the Tribunal. Then, on our own initiative—Dr. Sauter’s interrogatory did not come to us and we did not send it out—the whereabouts of Ida Vasseau was established. She was examined by interrogating officers and supplemented the testimony which she had given before the Extraordinary State Commission. I am now submitting to the Tribunal excerpts from her interrogatory on 16 May in which she dwelt on certain details of the treatment of children by the Hitler Youth.

THE PRESIDENT: We all understand that, General, but the question is: Why, if interrogatories had been allowed by the Tribunal and had been seen by the Prosecution and were dated sometime in April, why was the witness interrogated in May without having seen these interrogatories? This document is dated 16 May 1946, isn’t it, Dr. Sauter?—Dr. Sauter tells us that interrogatories allowed by the Tribunal were dated in April.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not know where Dr. Sauter sent his interrogatory. He did not send it through our office. I repeat that we did not send this interrogatory and could not have sent it on, for we did not know where Ida Vasseau lived. On our initiative steps were taken to establish her whereabouts, and when we found her she was interrogated, namely on 16 May.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1415 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal will not admit this document at the present time, but it would wish that you should present the original document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the Secretary General for a report upon the whole matter.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, during the recess I had a chance to talk this over with Dr. Sauter. He will give me the interrogatory and measures will be taken to get the necessary replies from the witness in the shortest possible time. Besides this the request of the Tribunal to get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as possible.

May I continue now with my interrogation?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I stopped at the testimony of Gert Bruno Knittel. Here is what he relates about his service in the German Army:

“Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forests, to
round up guerrillas and to look for discontent against the
German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot
immediately. Our 3d Company, Field Depot Battalion 375, caught
and shot five persons in the woods. Most possibly these persons
were not even partisans or guerrillas, but merely citizens who
went into the woods for personal matters. But we had orders to
shoot all who crossed our path in the woods. I did this together
with the other soldiers of my company.

“One day in June 1943, in a roundup in the village of Lishaysk,
we surrounded the whole place with three to four companies so
that no one could leave or enter the village. Outside each house
that had to be searched...”

THE PRESIDENT: You are cross-examining the Defendant Von Schirach who was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?

GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is the testimony of one of the members of the Hitler Jugend regarding his participation in atrocities during his service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This document is translated into German. I need not read it. However, I would like the witness Von Schirach to familiarize himself with this document. Did you read this document? I am asking you this now, Witness, have you read that document?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have read the document. This man Knittel who is testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but belonged either to the Labor Service or to a unit of the Army. Earlier in his life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the Hitler Youth. He states that; but in this case he was acting as a member of some unit of the Armed Forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth. The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. For example, he mentions a Hitler Youth Party...

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all the testimony that is given there?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all this testimony?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: In connection with this, do you admit that participation of German youth in similar atrocities was the effect of the special education and preparation of the Hitler Youth?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not admit that.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to what time did you hold the post of Reichsstatthalter of Vienna and Reichsleiter of Youth Education?

VON SCHIRACH: I was head of Youth Education from 1931 and Reich Governor of the city of Vienna since 1940.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am interested in knowing to what date, to what moment?

VON SCHIRACH: I held both of these offices until the collapse.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: You were telling here in detail about your break with Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you were politically dead. However, you continued to hold your posts to the very end. Therefore your break with Hitler was only theoretical, and in effect entailed no consequences for you. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRACH: That is wrong. I described the consequences which it had for me in my statement either on Thursday or Friday, and I also mentioned at that time that up to the very last moment I kept my oath which I had given to Hitler as Youth Leader, as an official, and as an officer.

GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I should like to put two brief questions to Defendant Von Schirach.

The first question, Witness: in the course of the cross-examination you were asked whether you gave the order to hold Vienna until the very last moment and to defend the city to the last man. As far as I remember, you answered that question in the negative. Now, I am interested in knowing in this connection what orders you gave to your subordinates during the last days in Vienna—I mean to the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizer and the then Mayor Blaschke?

VON SCHIRACH: The order for the defense of Vienna originated with Hitler. The defense of Vienna was a matter for the military authorities, that is, the commandant of the city of Vienna, the military commander who was in charge of the 6th SS Panzer Division....

DR. SAUTER: What was his name?

VON SCHIRACH: Sepp Dietrich, and the officer commanding the Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic.

DR. SAUTER: Did they give the orders?

VON SCHIRACH: In carrying out the order which Hitler had given them regarding the defense of Vienna, they defended Vienna.

DR. SAUTER: What orders did you, Witness, give your subordinates in this connection?

VON SCHIRACH: For the defense of Vienna I gave only such orders as related to the Volkssturm, or those dealing with the food supply of the city and similar matters with which I was charged. I personally had nothing to do with the actual defense of the city. For even the work of destruction which was necessary in the course of the military defense of the city is to be traced back to orders which originated from the Führer’s headquarters and had been transmitted to the officer commanding the Army group, and to the city commandant.

DR. SAUTER: My second question, Witness: In your cross-examination you were questioned about Document 3763-PS. This is a document which deals with the songs of youth, into which the Prosecution seems to read a different attitude from the one you set forth. Do you wish to supplement your testimony on this point?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I must supplement it briefly.

DR. SAUTER: Please do.

VON SCHIRACH: The Prosecution accuses me concerning a certain song, a song which begins, “We are the black swarms of Geyer, hey, ho”; the chorus of which goes, “Spear them, spike them, put the red cock on the cloister roof,” and one verse runs, “We will cry to Him on high that we want to kill the priest.”

This is a Christian song.

DR. SAUTER: How is that?

VON SCHIRACH: This can be seen in the fourth and fifth verses. It is the song of the Protestant peasants under the leadership of Florian Geyer.

The fourth verse goes: “No castle, abbey, and monastery matters. Nothing but the Holy Scripture is of value to us.” The next verse goes: “We want the same law from prince down to peasant.”

Protestantism, too, was once a revolution. The rebel peasants sang this song; and it may serve as an example, this song of the 16th century, like some of the songs of the French revolution. This song may be used as an example to show how, in the beginning, revolutions are radical rather than tolerant.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with this point I should like to conclude my direct examination of the Defendant Von Schirach. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Who were your principal assistants in your office at Vienna?

VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the chief of my Central Office, Hoepken; secondly, the Regierungspräsident Dr. Dellbrügge; thirdly, the Mayor, Blaschke; and fourthly, the Deputy Gauleiter, Scharizer. They were my chief collaborators.

THE PRESIDENT: That makes four, does it?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And did they occupy the whole of their time working for you in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: Not all of them. The Deputy Gauleiter had already been functioning under my predecessor, Bürckel. Mayor Blaschke, as far as I recall, first became mayor in 1943. His predecessor as mayor was a Herr Jung. The District President, Dr. Dellbrügge, assumed his office in 1940, after my arrival in Vienna. He was sent to me from the Reich.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then, from the time that you took over the office in Vienna these four men were working for you, is that right?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I should like to mention also that the head of the Central Office, Hoepken, was first of all active under me as adjutant and assumed his position as chief only when the former chief of this office, Obergebietsführer Müller, lost his life in an air raid.

THE PRESIDENT: Which of the four was it who initialed those weekly reports which were received in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: That was the District President, Dr. Dellbrügge.

THE PRESIDENT: Dellbrügge?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And at the time that he received them he was working in your office as one of your principal assistants?

VON SCHIRACH: He was my deputy in the State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: That was your office?

VON SCHIRACH: That was one of my offices.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, one department in your office?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. May I add, by way of explanation, that there were various branches: The State Administration, the Municipal Administration, the Party Management and the Reich Defense Commissariat. The Reich Defense Commissariat and the State Administration were combined as far as their representation was concerned. Everything was co-ordinated in the Central Office.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, in which department was this principal assistant who initialed these documents? Which department was he head of?

VON SCHIRACH: He held a key position in the office of the Reichsstatthalter as Chief of the State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: Civil administration?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, Civil State Administration.

THE PRESIDENT: Was he the Deputy Reich Defense Commissioner?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And you were the Reich Defense Commissioner for the Military District Number XVII, were you not?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And he was your deputy in that military district?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: He received and initialed those reports in that office, did he not?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock.

[_The Defendant Von Schirach left the stand._]

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with your permission I should like to call to the witness box the witness Lauterbacher.

[_The witness Lauterbacher took the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

HARTMANN LAUTERBACHER (Witness): Hartmann Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that your full name?

LAUTERBACHER: Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[_The witness repeated the oath._]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I have already discussed this matter with you in the prison; is that right?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Please pause after each question before you answer so that the interpreters may keep up.

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When were you born?

LAUTERBACHER: On 24 May 1909.

DR. SAUTER: 1909?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, 1909.

DR. SAUTER: Are you married?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You have three children?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: What is your profession?

LAUTERBACHER: Druggist.

DR. SAUTER: Retail druggist?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You are in an American prison?

LAUTERBACHER: In an English prison.

DR. SAUTER: Since when?

LAUTERBACHER: Since 29 May 1945.

DR. SAUTER: Have you been interrogated by the Prosecution on this matter?

LAUTERBACHER: No.

DR. SAUTER: When did you become an official, that is to say, a paid employee of the Hitler Youth?

LAUTERBACHER: I became a paid employee of the Hitler Youth when appointed District Leader (Gebietsführer) of the Westphalia-Lower Rhine area.

DR. SAUTER: And when was that?

LAUTERBACHER: In April 1932:

DR. SAUTER: April 1932. That was at the age of 23?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes, at the age of 23.

DR. SAUTER: Before then had you been a member of the HJ?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. I was...

DR. SAUTER: Slowly, please, and always wait until the question has been completed before you answer.

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: I was asking you if you were already a member of the Hitler Youth when you took up your paid appointment in the year 1932.

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 1922, I joined what was then known as the National Socialist Youth Organization. Then, when I was 18 years old, in the year 1927, I accepted the duties of an Unterführer in my home province of the Tyrol...

DR. SAUTER: And officially you were...

LAUTERBACHER: ...then I worked in an honorary capacity in Brunswick from 1929 until 1932; and later on I had a paid appointment.

DR. SAUTER: That is to say from 1932?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: What was your status in the year 1932? What position did you get then?

LAUTERBACHER: In the year 1932 I was entrusted with the leadership of the area then known as Westphalia-Lower Rhine.

DR. SAUTER: When were you assigned to the Defendant Von Schirach?

LAUTERBACHER: On 22 May 1934.

DR. SAUTER: What was your position under him?

LAUTERBACHER: Stabsführer.

DR. SAUTER: How long did you remain a Stabsführer?

LAUTERBACHER: Until August 1940.

DR. SAUTER: I suppose until the time he resigned his office as Reich Youth Leader?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When you took up your paid appointment with the HJ, had you already served with the Army?

LAUTERBACHER: No.

DR. SAUTER: Then you had not been an officer?

LAUTERBACHER: No.

DR. SAUTER: You told us, I believe, that since 1934 you had been Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership. What tasks did the Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have an idea of what your jurisdiction was.

LAUTERBACHER: As the title of Stabsführer indicates, I was in the first place the chief of the staff of the Reich Youth Leadership. As such, I had the task of dealing with the general directives of the Reich Youth Leader, particularly those concerning the Hitler Youth offices and regions insofar as the Youth Leader did not do that himself. I had to co-ordinate the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership and in particular to deal with matters of an organizational and personal nature.

Furthermore, in the years 1935 to 1939 I made a number of journeys abroad at Von Schirach’s request.

DR. SAUTER: Who was the deputy of the Reich Youth Leader when he could not act personally?

LAUTERBACHER: I was his deputy on occasions when he was prevented from acting personally.

DR. SAUTER: Then apparently you were the first man in the Reich Youth Leadership after Schirach?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Were your relations with Von Schirach purely official, or were you friends as well?

LAUTERBACHER: Our association was not limited only to official matters; we were also personal friends, and so our personal relationship was not interrupted by Schirach’s appointment in Vienna.

DR. SAUTER: Do you believe, Herr Lauterbacher—regarding this friendly relationship that you had with Von Schirach—that he concealed certain things from you; or are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you?

LAUTERBACHER: I always have been, and still am today, convinced of the fact that Von Schirach made all his intentions and educational measures known to me.

DR. SAUTER: So he kept nothing from you?

LAUTERBACHER: No, he kept nothing from me. If Schirach had discussions with Adolf Hitler during the earlier years he always informed me immediately afterwards.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the year 1939 the second World War broke out. Did the Defendant Von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the World War, have any discussions with you in which he expressed the view that youth should be educated for war—in other words—that in educating youth the necessities and requirements of future war must be taken into account? What transpired on this point between you and Von Schirach before the war?

LAUTERBACHER: The possibility of war was never discussed. Occasionally I attended Party rallies in the company of Von Schirach; and on these occasions, when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only—on the occasion of these rallies I had the definite and unalterable impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich were determined to maintain peace and to allow matters to follow a peaceful course. That is why it never occurred to me that youth should be trained specifically for war.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, in your capacity as Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership, did you have any knowledge about the mail as a whole which either came to Schirach or was dispatched by him?

LAUTERBACHER: I always saw all the official mail.

DR. SAUTER: In the mail which reached Schirach in his office, did you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from Hitler, from the Party leadership, from the OKW, or from any other agency, either State or Party, regarding the preparations for war?

LAUTERBACHER: No, neither open nor camouflaged.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, we have already heard about the main functions of youth education in the course of the last few days. I do not believe, Mr. President, that I need go into these subjects in detail. The witness is the person best qualified to give us information, but I think I may take the subject of youth education as clarified.

THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated.

DR. SAUTER: Thank you. Then I can pass on to another subject immediately.

[_Turning to the witness._] You said that you had not been a soldier. Did not Schirach attach importance to the inclusion among his collaborators of a certain number of officers, or at least of men who had served their term of military service and who might be enrolled as instructors? Please be brief.

LAUTERBACHER: No, at first, that is, during the early years of the period of development, Von Schirach rejected officers as youth leaders on ideological and educational grounds. The aim and mission of the Hitler Youth were those of a socialist community and of a socialist state; and the old type of officer of the period, the representative of a reactionary epoch, would have been absolutely incompatible.

DR. SAUTER: Absolutely incompatible? Do you mean with the...

LAUTERBACHER: With the principles of education which Schirach had laid down for the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you any idea whether Schirach always rejected the proposal, or to put it the other way round, do you know whether he agreed when any military authorities tried to influence the character of the Youth Leadership? Perhaps you could also answer this point briefly.

LAUTERBACHER: Even in 1933 attempts were made to introduce officers into the Hitler Youth as leaders. As far as my information goes, two officers had been given appointments in the Hitler Youth before my period of office as Stabsführer, under more or less direct orders from Hitler. They were entirely unable to cope with youth as such; and I think I am justified in saying that their appearance was a complete failure.

DR. SAUTER: What happened to them?

LAUTERBACHER: Schirach went to Adolf Hitler and succeeded in having these gentlemen dismissed; also through him, a directive was drawn up by Hitler which said that officers were not to hold positions in the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Were no further attempts of the kind made to force officers from somewhere or other upon him?

LAUTERBACHER: Oh, yes. In 1936 and 1937, and then again in 1938, attempts were made to influence the education of the Hitler Youth through so-called liaison officers. But these attempts also failed; and up to the very end there were no officers working with the Hitler Youth who were responsible to any other authority except Schirach, apart from former Hitler Youth leaders who had served in the Army and received officers’ commissions.

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, you wish to say—and please confirm whether I have understood you correctly—that Schirach rejected these attempts. Is that correct?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, why did the Hitler Youth wear uniform—the girls as well?

LAUTERBACHER: Uniform is perhaps not quite the correct term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was more in the nature of a national costume which was worn by members of youth organizations before the existence of the Hitler Youth, not only in Germany but in other countries as well. Moreover, Schirach was anxious that all boys and girls should, as he expressed himself, wear the dress of the socialist community.

DR. SAUTER: Of the socialist community. Does that mean a community of all—of all the boys and girls of every class of German society without any distinction?

LAUTERBACHER: Without any distinction as to descent or creed or anything else.

DR. SAUTER: Or rich or poor?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Were the Hitler Youth in possession of weapons and were they trained in the use of military weapons? You must know that.

LAUTERBACHER: No, they were not trained in the use of military weapons during the period in which Schirach and I held office.

DR. SAUTER: Did the Hitler Youth have, in particular, tanks, armored cars, and so forth, since reference was made to the training of the young men in the so-called “motorized Hitler Youth” in connection with the question of the special unit (Sonderformation)—tanks, armored cars?

LAUTERBACHER: No, to my knowledge the Hitler Youth never received any training in armored cars, tanks, or anything of the kind, even after Schirach’s term of office. At any rate...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You need not go into that. Mr. Dodd did not suggest that they had tanks.

DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can perhaps be more brief.

I now come, Herr Lauterbacher, to the Defendant Von Schirach’s attitude toward the Jewish question. Was the Hitler Youth involved in any way in the Jewish pogroms of November 1938?

LAUTERBACHER: I think I can answer your question with a definite “no.”

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, you told me something about a speech made by the Defendant Von Schirach a few days after 9 November 1938, on the subject of these Jewish pogroms. Tell me when and to whom he delivered this speech and what the contents of the speech were.

LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach was in Munich on 10 November 1938 and I was in Berlin. Schirach instructed me by telephone to tell the district leaders of the Hitler Youth that their organizations were in no circumstances to take part in these anti-Jewish demonstrations, and to call a meeting of all these leaders to hear a specific declaration on this point. This meeting took place about 15 November 1938.

DR. SAUTER: Where?

LAUTERBACHER: In Berlin. Schirach asked these district leaders to report to him and expressed his satisfaction at having in the meantime received reports to the effect that the Hitler Youth had not been involved in these excesses. He then described the said excesses in his speech. I still remember this speech extraordinarily well, for it was particularly impressive. He described these pogroms as a disgrace to our culture and as amounting to self-defamation. He said that such things might be expected of an uncivilized people but not of the German people. He went on to say that we had antagonized not only the world in general but also all decent people in Germany itself by these demonstrations. He was afraid that serious political difficulties would arise at home, as well as difficulties within the Party itself. As we know, the Party was not at all unanimous in its judgment of these happenings. A very large section of the Party members and of the Party leadership condemned these excesses.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell us more of what Schirach said at that time. I should be more interested in that.

LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach then gave the Youth Leadership special instructions to keep out of demonstrations of this or a similar kind in the future, no matter what the circumstances might be, and condemned every use of violence on educational grounds alone. He concluded the proceedings by prohibiting the reading of the newspaper _Der Stürmer_ by the Hitler Youth at club evenings or on any other occasions.

DR. SAUTER: On this occasion, Herr Lauterbacher, did he say anything about the needless destruction of so many cultural treasures, art treasures, property belonging to the people, _et cetera_, and did he not give certain instances of this?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. As an especially glaring instance, he quoted the case of the attempt, which was at least partially carried through, to loot the Jewish firm of Bernheimer, art dealers in Munich.

DR. SAUTER: Munich?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes. He quoted this example to the Youth Leadership to illustrate the dangerous and irreparable inroads made on the reservoir of our culture and our cultural treasures by these demonstrations.

DR. SAUTER: Is it true that immediately after this Berlin speech about which you have just told us, the Defendant Von Schirach caused definite directives to be issued by telephone from Berlin, through your agency, to the individual Hitler Youth offices?

LAUTERBACHER: This took place as early as 10 November, the day after the Munich meeting. It had nothing to do with the district leaders’ meeting, which only took place about 15 November.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I assume that, as time went on, you were present at a good many speeches made by the Defendant Von Schirach to his subleaders, or to the Hitler Youth, and that you listened to many of these speeches yourself. Did the Defendant Von Schirach engage in Jew-baiting on these or other occasions? Did he suggest that violence be used against the Jews? What was his attitude?

LAUTERBACHER: Yes; I must have listened to all the important speeches delivered by Von Schirach before the Leadership Corps of the Hitler Youth, and on the occasion of these speeches I never heard him urge the use of violence, which would in any case have been completely foreign to his nature. At any rate, I cannot recall that Von Schirach ever called upon the Youth Leadership, either directly or indirectly, to take part in acts of violence of any kind against anyone.

DR. SAUTER: What did Schirach usually talk about in delivering one of his many speeches addressed to youth? Just the main topic, briefly.

LAUTERBACHER: One must certainly differentiate between the long speeches which he delivered at public demonstrations and the speeches which he made before the leaders of the Hitler Youth.

In the speeches he addressed to the leaders he always discussed the main political and ideological tasks and the tasks of social policy, cultural policy, and professional training which he had assigned to the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Herr Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church?

LAUTERBACHER: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did you leave the Church?

LAUTERBACHER: I do not believe that Herr Von Schirach even knew to what religious denomination I belonged or whether I left the Church or not. I left the Church in 1937 or 1938, without being influenced or forced to do so by anyone.

DR. SAUTER: Did Von Schirach urge his other collaborators to leave the Church, as far as you know?

LAUTERBACHER: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach abuse Christianity or incite others to attack it on the occasion of the numerous speeches made by him, to which you have just told us that you listened?