Chapter D: V. L., Berlin-Adlershof (7)

Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether these experimental subjects suffered to any appreciable extent during the course of these typhus experiments?

A. There we must draw a strict dividing line between the general mental condition of such experimental persons and the physical condition caused by this disease. Every man in the camp knew that Block 46 was a dreadful place. Only a very few people in the camp had an exact idea of what was going on in Block 46. A dreadful horror seized anyone who was brought into any kind of connection with this block. If people were selected and taken to Block 46 through the sick bay, then they knew that the affair was a fatal one. The untold horror which was attached to this block made things even worse. Apart from this, it was generally known in the camp that Kapo Arthur Dietzsch exercised iron discipline in Block 46. There the cat-o’-nine-tails really ruled supreme. Everyone, therefore, who went to Block 46 as an experimental person did not only have to expect death, and under certain circumstances a very long drawn out and frightful death, but also torture and the complete removal of the last remnants of personal freedom. In this mental condition these experimental persons waited in the sick bays for an unknown period of time. They waited for the day or for the night when something would be done to them; they did not know what it would be, but they guessed that it would be some frightful form of death. If they were vaccinated, then sometimes the most horrible scenes took place, because the patients were afraid the injections were lethal. Kapo Arthur Dietzsch had to restore order with iron discipline. After a certain period, when the actual illness had set in after the infection, ordinary symptoms of typhus would appear, which, as is well known, is one of the most serious illnesses. The infection, as I have already described to you, became so powerful during the last two and a half years that the typhus almost always appeared in its most horrible form. There were cases of raving madness, delirium, people would refuse to eat, and a large percentage of them would die. Those who experienced the disease in a milder form, perhaps because their constitutions were stronger or because the vaccine was effective, were forced continuously to observe the death struggles of the others. And all this took place in an atmosphere hardly possible to imagine. Just what happened to those people who survived the typhus was something which they did not know during the period of convalescence. Would they remain in Block 46 to be used for other purposes? Would they be used as assistants? Would they be feared as surviving witnesses of the experiments on human beings and therefore killed? All this was something which they did not know and which aggravated the conditions of these experiments.

EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT ROSE[64]

_CROSS-EXAMINATION_

* * * * *

MR. MCHANEY: When did you first learn that Haagen was conducting experiments on concentration camp inmates?

DEFENDANT ROSE: That Haagen was performing experiments on concentration camp inmates? I don’t believe that even today, but I knew that he carried out vaccinations in concentration camps. I cannot remember when I first learned of it—probably in 1943.

Q. Well, you remember the letter in December 1943?

A. I certainly must have known it by then because there I refer to it.

Q. Well, did you know about this sordid occasion when Haagen had 18 men who had been assigned to him die on transport?

A. I never learned anything about that at the time. I found it out from the files. I never knew that prisoners were especially taken to these concentration camps in order to be vaccinated.

Q. What would you have done if you had known about it? Wouldn’t that have given you an indication that maybe things were not so nice in the concentration camp, or maybe proper care wasn’t being taken of the inmates in these experiments?

A. If I had learned anything about it I probably would have reacted exactly as Haagen did. The documents he wrote to the SS office prove that one cannot conduct any experiments of any consequence on such unfortunate people. The record is in the documents here. If I had learned about it, I would probably have reacted in exactly the same way, perhaps more violently.

Q. Well, I should have hoped so.

A. I beg your pardon. I didn’t understand you.

Q. I should have hoped you would have reacted somewhat more violently than Haagen apparently did.

A. That is possible. Our temperaments are different.

Q. You recall Fraeulein Eyer testified that Haagen sent reports every three months to the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe. Do you agree to that testimony?

A. I heard the testimony. Yesterday in my direct examination I commented on it. If Haagen had reported every three months I certainly wouldn’t have forgotten it. I had many things on my mind during the war, but such an exemplary condition of reporting would certainly have impressed itself on my memory. It is quite out of the question that the Medical Inspectorate received a report from Haagen every 3 months. I said yesterday that I consider Fraeulein Eyer’s testimony quite credible, because in view of the number of offices with which Haagen was in connection, and from which he received reports, there were so many reports and accounts necessary that it is a marvel that Fraeulein Eyer didn’t say she had to write a report every month. I explained with the aid of the documents what obligation to report is apparent from the documents alone. You probably haven’t had an opportunity to read the record yet, but as soon as the record is ready you will be able to see that. I don’t think there is any purpose in holding up the proceedings with that any further.

Q. And you are quite clear that Haagen never suggested to you that he was going to carry out infection experiments with typhus after vaccination?

A. That is not known to me.

Q. Let’s have a look at Document NO-1059. This will be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 490 for identification. Now, will you please read this letter in a loud and resonant voice?

A. Perhaps I may see the photostat.

Q. Will you read the letter aloud, please?

A. (Reading)

“29 November 1943—Registered “To Oberstarzt Professor Dr. Rose “Inspectorate of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe “Saalow (Post Office Zossen-Land) “Dear Herr Rose:

“Enclosed I am sending you the report about our experiments with dehydrated typhus vaccine which I promised you several days ago. As I intend to publish the findings, I have already written the report in manuscript form. After it has been reviewed, I would like it to be submitted to the competent authorities for their approval of its publication in the ‘Zentralblatt fur Bakteriologie’ [Central Periodical for Bacteriology].

“One hundred persons from a local concentration camp were put at my disposal for immunization and subsequent infection. Unfortunately, these people were in such a poor physical condition that eighteen of them already died during transport; the remainder were likewise in such bad physical shape that they could not be used for inoculation purposes. In the meantime I have requested 100 additional persons from the SS Main Office, who should, however, be in a normal physical and nutritional condition, so that the experiments can be carried out on material which at least approaches the physical condition of our soldiers.

“For the time being, we will concentrate on an epidemic culture in the form of a virus, which we have received from Giroud in the meantime. This seems to be a very good culture.

“With best regards,
“Heil Hitler!
“Yours—

“Enclosure: one report.”
And no signature.

This is the matter which I discussed yesterday. Haagen’s plan to test the inoculation reactions to his live and virulent dry vaccine by prevaccination with dead vaccine to weaken the reaction. That is the same matter.

Q. I thought you said about two minutes ago that you didn’t know of the incident where eighteen of the inmates put at Haagen’s disposal had died during transport.

A. Yes, that’s true. That’s what I said. I had forgotten about it. I thought that I had learned it for the first time from the records. If I had remembered it, I would, of course, not have exposed myself by denying it. But now I see this letter. It is obviously a carbon copy. I must assume that on 29 November 1943 the mail was still fairly normal, and that I received the letter, since a report is mentioned which I was to deal with. It was apparently one of Haagen’s papers on his dry vaccine, on which my knowledge is based and on account of which I can give any information here at all as to Haagen’s experiments. This knowledge of mine goes back to these papers of his which he wanted to publish.

Q. It would appear that in spite of your fiery temperament your reaction was even less significant than Haagen’s himself, wouldn’t it?

A. Since I was not concerned in the matter, as it was something between Haagen and the concentration camp, there was no reaction in this case. If somebody else tells me that he has had direct contact with abuses, then there is no occasion for me to interfere, since that is settled between the persons concerned. I had nothing to do with the concentration camps. I did not have to carry out any inoculations there.

Q. And you insist that the words, “one hundred persons from a local concentration camp were put at my disposal for immunization and subsequent infection” really don’t mean subsequent infection at all, but a subsequent immunization?

A. With the live and virulent dry vaccine, yes.

Q. Well, that is certainly an inarticulate way of saying that, isn’t it?

A. This is correspondence between experts, and they know what it’s about.

Q. You state yourself that you are still not sure exactly what Haagen did, although you were down there in the middle of 1943 and got him back on the pay roll of the Luftwaffe, and you knew he was staying at the laboratory and you knew he was going to work on typhus vaccines, but you now sit here and say you don’t know exactly what he was doing.

A. Yes. That is true. I have given considerable information here about Haagen’s work, and I have gone to considerable pains to get it all together; but of course I can’t give you complete information, simply because all these experiments were not under our direction and supervision.

Q. Herr Professor, the first time the question of subsequent infection came up was in a letter dated 1944, and you spent the best part of a day rationalizing “subsequent infection” as meaning something entirely different—that it was simply a subsequent vaccination, after the man had already been vaccinated by the dead vaccine. Now, if you were told on 29 November 1943 that he was going to carry out immunization and subsequent infection experiments, you certainly would have known as a matter of fact what he was doing, and you would not need to speculate on this stand as you did yesterday. These words are entirely susceptible to the meaning that they mean exactly what they say.

A. At this stage of his experiments Haagen did not yet have a fully developed vaccine. He was working exclusively on the problem of weakening the reaction to this live virulent vaccine. That was the problem he was dealing with at the end of 1943 and the beginning of 1944. He was looking for various methods of achieving this aim.

Q. What does he mean in the last paragraph when he says, “For the time being, we will concentrate on an epidemic culture in the form of a virus, which we have received from Giroud in the meantime”?

A. That means that up to that time he had worked with a murine strain, and that now for the development of the dry vaccine he wanted in addition to use a strain of Rickettsia-Prowazeki.

Q. Well, I now want to point out to you again that I am having considerable difficulty in construing the word “infection” to mean vaccination.

A. Yes. I admit that many of these documents are written in a confusing way, but I believe that I can remember the whole matter adequately enough to know what the problem is. The vaccine was not developed enough to be used in vaccination without reaction and then to determine the effect. There were strong fever reactions, and the problem was how to avoid this fever reaction.

Q. Well, why call that infection?

A. That is a similar condition biologically. An injection of a live, a virulent vaccine, from the biological point of view, is an infection. This expression is used often enough, but it is an infection which one can absolutely control.

Q. And after receipt of this letter, you then wrote him on the 13th of December—and this is Document NO-122, Exhibit 298—you sent him the Copenhagen vaccine, didn’t you, and asked him to test it in his experiments on his concentration camp inmates, didn’t you, just as they did in Buchenwald, as you put it?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. You sent him the Copenhagen vaccine after receiving this letter of 29 November, and asked him to test that in his experiments on concentration camp inmates.

A. When this discussion of the Copenhagen vaccine took place, Haagen was specially interested in it, because it was a murine vaccine; and since he could not yet control fever reaction with murine vaccine—he only succeeded in doing that at the beginning of 1944 by storing the vaccine for a considerable time—he was no longer interested in this Copenhagen vaccine. But at the end of 1943, when he still had the same difficulties as Blanc with the reactions with the live murine vaccine, he was considerably interested in the Copenhagen vaccine. For it was the only vaccine from murine virus available in Europe at the time.

Q. You sent it to him, told him to test it just like they did in a series of experiments in Buchenwald, didn’t you?

A. I don’t remember that.

Q. Well, you remember mentioning Buchenwald to Haagen in your letter of 13 December 1943?

A. Oh, that’s what you mean. Yes, I pointed it out as a parallel, because several vaccines were tested in Buchenwald for their effect against infection, and Haagen in Strasbourg wanted to test various vaccine for their reaction effect.

Q. You sent that Copenhagen vaccine to Buchenwald also to be tested?

A. No.

* * * * *

Q. Herr Professor, did Mrugowsky ever request you to give him vaccines for use in typhus experiments?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever discuss the question as to whether the louse could be infected by a vaccinated typhus patient with the defendant Mrugowsky?

A. That could be possible. This question played an important role for a time in the discussion about the vaccines and their effectiveness. We had some old Polish observations available to the effect that if vaccinated persons received typhus in spite of the vaccination, no further illnesses could be transferred by such persons. It is possible throughout, since this question was of considerable importance that something like that could well have been discussed by Mrugowsky and myself. We talked a lot about that question.

Q. Did you ever negotiate with Mrugowsky concerning vaccines to be tested in Buchenwald?

A. No.

Q. Let’s look at Document NO-1754.

(Document submitted to the witness.)

MR. MCHANEY: I will ask that document NO-1754 be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 491 for identification.

Q. (Continuing) Herr Professor, will you read this document aloud?

A. “Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS; Journal No. 795/42

“Berlin W 15, Knesebeckstrasse 43/44; 16 May 1942

“To Oberfeldarzt Professor Dr. Rose; Berlin N. W., Foehrerstrasse 2

“Robert Koch Institute “Dear Professor:

“The Reich Physician SS and Police has consented to the execution of experiments to test typhus vaccines. May I therefore ask you to let me have the vaccines?

“The other question which you raised, as to whether the louse can be infected by a typhus patient vaccinated for protection, will also be dealt with. In principle, this has also been approved. There are, however, still some difficulties at the moment about the practical execution, since we have at present no facilities for breeding lice.

“Your suggestion to use Olzscha has been passed on to the personnel department of the SS Medical Office. It will be given consideration in due course.

“With kind regards, and

“Heil Hitler!
“Yours
“Dr. MRUGOWSKY, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer.”

There is a footnote to this letter, and I quote:

“According to telephone inquiry, Dr. Mrugowsky asks to be called
by telephone after Professor Dr. Rose’s return. Dr. Mrugowsky
will not be in Berlin in June. His deputy, Dr. Ding, is
informed. 20 May 1942.”

This letter shows that Dr. Mrugowsky once informed me that the Reich Physician SS and Police had consented to the testing of typhus vaccines. He then asks me to send him these vaccines. I cannot recall what vaccines he is speaking of.

Then the question is discussed about lice being infected by typhus patients vaccinated for protection.

I admitted that a possibility exists, and I said that this question was at one time discussed with me.

The final paragraph says that one of my assistants had been drafted into the Waffen SS and that I endeavored to have him used in the hygiene service.

Q. Herr Professor, let’s go to the footnote first. What are the initials “B. L.” at the end of that footnote for? Isn’t that Frau Block?

A. Yes, that would be Frau Block, yes.

Q. And Frau Block has been in touch with Dr. Mrugowsky. She notes that Dr. Ding, who I suppose you will admit is Dr. Ding, has been informed. In view of this note we can pretty well disregard the testimony of your witness Frau Block before this Tribunal, can’t we? She testified that you had not corresponded with Mrugowsky, didn’t she?

A. She said that she could not recollect any correspondence with Mrugowsky, but you will see from my documents which you have before you, that this correspondence in effect was so small that it is quite understandable if she does not remember it in detail. It is a result of my express order that you have these documents available. I ordered that in my institute at Pfaffenrode no documents should be destroyed under any circumstances. There is a written document available to show that I gave such an order.

Q. Herr Professor, this letter is in response to one which you wrote to Mrugowsky, isn’t it?

A. That’s possible.

Q. And in the letter that you wrote to Mrugowsky you asked him to have the Bucharest vaccine tested in Buchenwald, didn’t you?

A. I told you before in great detail that I could not remember this matter about the Bucharest vaccine. If you have a letter before you about this matter, it would, of course, give me a possibility to refresh my memory.

Q. I should think this letter would refresh your memory, Herr Professor, particularly in view of the Ding diary, which has an entry shortly following the date on this letter where Ding carries out his experiments with the Bucharest vaccine among others, and says in the diary that the vaccine was obtained from you; and Mrugowsky in this letter asked you to send him the vaccines which you have mentioned in your previous letter. There’s really no doubt about it, is there, Professor?

A. This possibly becomes apparent.

Q. And was this person Olzscha mentioned in the letter? Was he to assist in Buchenwald?

A. He was to be used in the hygiene service. Since he particularly dealt with entomological questions, I asked that he should work on these questions there.

Q. You got a report from Ding, too, on these experiments testing the Bucharest vaccine, didn’t you, Professor?

A. I cannot remember that, and I already told you once that had I received any such report, I would have drawn the conclusions from it; and since I did not do that, I think it is improbable that I received such a report.

Q. In view of this letter, Doctor, do you want to go back and change your testimony about the Copenhagen vaccine? Didn’t you also suggest those experiments, and didn’t you also supply the Copenhagen vaccine for the experiments in Buchenwald?

A. No. I have no intention of doing that.

Q. Well, in that event I will ask that Document NO-1186 be passed up to you, and this will be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 492 for identification. Will you read this letter aloud please?

A. “Oberstarzt Professor Rose

“O. U., 2 December 1943

“To Standartenfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky, “Head of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS “Berlin-Zehlendorf 6 “Spanische Allee 10 “Dear Herr Mrugowsky:

“At present I have at my disposal a number of samples of a new murine virus typhus vaccine which was prepared from mice livers and proved in animal experiments to be quantitatively a thousand times more effective than the vaccine prepared from mice lungs. In order to decide whether this first-rate murine vaccine should be used for protective vaccination of human beings against lice typhus, it would be desirable to know if this vaccine showed in yours and Ding’s experimental arrangement at Buchenwald an effect similar to that of the classic virus vaccines. Would you be able to have such an experimental series carried out? Unfortunately, I could not reach you over the phone. Considering the slowness of postal communications I would be grateful for an answer by telephone. My numbers, all of which go through the same switchboard, are: Berlin 278313; Rapid Exchange Berlin 90, Zossen 559; Luftwaffe Exchange 72, there you ask for RLM, L In 14.

“With best regards

“Heil Hitler!
“Yours
“Rose”

The signature which you see on this photostatic copy is, in effect, my signature. This letter shows that I also informed Mrugowsky about the Copenhagen vaccine, which I did not remember up to this point.

Q. And you asked him to test the vaccine in Buchenwald didn’t you?

A. The question of whether this vaccine can be tested in Buchenwald is dealt with here.

Q. Do you see the name “Ding” written at the bottom of the letter?

A. Yes, it is at the bottom of the page.

Q. And it appears that the testimony of Kogon was very precise, wasn’t it, because Ding got a copy of this letter, didn’t he?

A. Yes. Ding’s utterances do not only refer to my memorandum but also to the correspondence between Mrugowsky and myself. Apparently it was then transferred to the Reichsarzt SS.

Q. Is the date on this letter 2 December 1943 or 12 February 1943—and I direct your attention to the receipt stamp on the letter which is 21 February 1944?

A. The difference between the two dates can be explained by the fact that a considerable time had elapsed between the sending of my letter and when this letter finally reached Ding. During this time the competent agency dealt with the matter of the approval and execution of the experiments on human beings.

Q. So you maintain that 2 December 1943 is the correct date on the letter?

A. Certainly. That is certainly the correct date.

Q. On the basis of the two letters which I have exhibited to you, you will concede that the Ding diary was precisely accurate in what it said, won’t you?

A. No, one can’t conclude that just like that. The order to carry out experiments in Buchenwald could not be issued by me in any way.

Q. That’s very clear—

A. That vaccines were requested from me seems to be evident from one letter. I didn’t remember it and I still don’t remember it now, but on the basis of this letter one has to consider that fact proved. Then it also becomes evident that in this case I drew the attention of Herr Mrugowsky to this vaccine, and that I mentioned a discussion dealing with human experiments regarding these vaccines.

* * * * *

Q. Professor, 6 persons died in this experiment with the Copenhagen vaccine, didn’t they?

A. Yes. These were 6 persons who were furnished by the Reich Criminal Police Office through the regular channels after they were chosen by the competent agencies.

EXTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT MRUGOWSKY[65]

_DIRECT EXAMINATION_

* * * * *

DR. FLEMING: Will you please draw the necessary conclusions from what we have discovered about Ding’s diary?

DEFENDANT MRUGOWSKY: The various erroneous entries in this document and the facts which the handwriting experts have discovered prove that this document is not a diary in which entries were made from time to time. Rather there are long periods of time that are missing, sometimes periods of more than one year before the entries were made. Pages 1 to 3, I believe, were all written at the same time, and also the subsequent pages. The document has 27 pages, which were written down on only a few occasions. That is testified to by the handwriting expert. This explains the various discrepancies between the entries and the actual facts; for instance, calling the Robert Koch Institute a Reich Institute, when it wasn’t, etc. The testimony of a prosecution witness, Balachowsky, corroborates this affidavit.

Q. This affidavit is Document NO-484, Prosecution Exhibit 291. Balachowsky said, under number 29: “The file notes which were copied into the diary shortly before the collapse, give the precise number of the pages and the number of the experiments.” Now please continue.

A. In these words Balachowsky corroborates the fact that this diary, namely, this diary of Block 46, was drawn up shortly before the collapse, apparently on several days, consequently the difference in the typewriters used. Now, as to why he did this I can only conjecture—I do not know. That there was some reason for making the entries in this form would appear to be obvious.

Q. For the explanation of why Ding wrote this diary on Block 46 let me remind you of Kogon’s testimony, namely, that after 1943 Ding was sure that the war would be lost.

A. Yes. That is true. During his testimony Kogon often stated that from the beginning of 1943 on, Ding made efforts to cover himself. He also said that from that moment on, the oral assignments that he received were not sufficient, but that he must insist on receiving written orders. All the more remarkable is it then that the so-called diary, this NO-265, says only very infrequently who initiated the various lines of experimentation. And, if I recall correctly, he does not once say who ordered them.

Q. Then do the contents of this diary meet the normal requirements of a scientist’s diary?

A. The diary of a scientist has the purpose of setting down the precise course of the work undertaken. Consequently, all efforts regarding the initiation and course of experiments should be set down. That is a perfectly comprehensible custom in all institutes because subsequently the evaluation of the experiments is based on entries in the scientific institute’s diary. In this Document NO-265, however, which is allegedly such a diary of Block 46, there is not one entry regarding the actual course of the experiments; not even the results of the experiments are set down there. That is really the least that you could ask of such a diary. Dr. Kogon thought that the number of fatalities which are set down with clear precision were a result, to be sure, an unhappy result, of these experiments. That these events are found lamentable can hardly be disputed, but it is a false point of view if one orients oneself on the basis of this result toward something, the purpose of which was entirely different. The real experimental result can be seen in the following: as a consequence of the protective vaccination, what happens during a subsequent case of infection is that firstly, the period of incubation is prolonged, namely, that period of time which lapses between the actual infection and the first appearance of the disease. Secondly, the period of fever is shortened, whereas usually the period of fever in typhus is 17 days. This protective vaccination reduces it to 12, 10, and even 6 days, depending on the strength of the protective vaccine. At the same time, the height of the temperature is reduced. In other words, the symptoms that are associated with fever, which effect the blood circulation and the heart, as well as those which effect the central nervous system, are less pronounced or altogether absent after the protective vaccine. There are various other small clinical indications which a doctor readily recognizes as a result of the protective vaccine, and it must be said that as the result of less serious clinical manifestations, the number of fatalities from typhus is smaller. That is not a direct but an indirect consequence of vaccination. Therefore, when Ding asserts in this block diary of Block 46 that the most important result of the experiments was the number of fatalities, then every doctor will recognize this as such an erroneous and distorted statement that even if it is made by a doctor so reliable as Ding, it is completely unworthy of credence.

Q. I now show you Mrugowsky 9 and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 23. It is a photostat of a paper by Dr. Ding on the protective action of various vaccines on human beings and the course of typhus after immunization. I do not wish to read the document but simply desire to bring it to the attention of the Tribunal. Would you care to make any statement about the inadequate way in which this diary was worked on? Would you like to say that perhaps Ding was not in a position to carry on such work?

A. This paper is 13 pages long. First, there is the manner of the patient’s tolerance for the vaccine, then the individual points which I just mentioned as the consequences of the protective vaccination are gone into. Tables are presented which give statistics in these matters. There are eight sketches giving graphs showing the results; and at the very bottom on the next to the last page, in the next to the last paragraph, there are three lines which say that the fatalities in the cases of those vaccinated were fewer in number than among those not vaccinated. That is all mentioned in the summary—there is a final summary. This is also an indication that he was perfectly capable of carrying on scientific work. I should like to point out that at the top of this paper it is mentioned that this work was done in my institute in Berlin. I say that as an indication that I laid no stress on keeping these matters secret in any way or that it was my point of view that these experimental results which had been achieved on the most expensive of all material, namely, human beings, should be carried through to conclusion and that results should be made available to all who are interested.

Q. The prosecution also charges you with the fact that Ding infected persons in Buchenwald who had not previously received the protective vaccination. Would you like to make a statement on that subject?

A. The following cases come into question here on the basis of Ding’s diary entries. First of all, there are the so-called “preliminary experiments”. In Document NO-265, four such preparatory experiments are mentioned on nonvaccinated persons. These were done in order to ascertain what method was possible in order to artificially infect human beings with typhus. I always found that the lay person who had never concerned himself with these matters assumes it to be a matter of course that it is always possible to infect a human being with a disease. That, however, is by no means the case. Even in the case of such a toxic material as the typhus germ, successful infection can only occur if it is not directed directly into the blood stream. Unless another way is chosen, it is usually impossible to bring about infection with such a disease. Consequently, when such experiments are to be carried out on human beings—and this is a point of view which I express without any reference to my own person—then such preliminary experiments cannot be dispensed with. The second case is the so-called “controlled cases”.

Q. Did you know anything of these preliminary experiments?

A. No. I found out about them only through the diary.

Q. Ding says in his diary under the 20th of February 1942: “Case histories and curves on the preliminary experiments were sent to Berlin.” Did you receive this report?

A. No. Nor do I believe Ding sent it to me, because he was not subordinate to me in these experiments and it seems, therefore, more probable to me that he sent them to Grawitz. I, at any rate, did not see them.

Q. How can this be reconciled with your letter of 5 May 1942 to Conti and others which I put into evidence this morning as Mrugowsky 10, Mrugowsky Exhibit 20?

A. This letter corroborates what I have just testified to, because the report on this series of experiments was sent to Grawitz, and I received Ding’s report to Grawitz from Grawitz himself with the order to rewrite it in a suitable form, since Grawitz did not wish outside persons to be able to see, without any further trouble to themselves, that these were really experiments on human beings with artificial infection. He knew that, to some extent, I could master the style which he used in his official communications, whereas he did not know whether Ding could or not. Consequently, he commissioned me to take Ding’s original report and to cast it in a suitable form for the purpose of making communications to the manufacturing firm. This I did, and the result is this document dated 5 May 1942.

Q. Your letterhead here is “Reich Physician SS and Police, Chief Hygienist”. In other words, this is one of the cases in which Grawitz made use of you when you still belonged to the medical staff of the Waffen SS?

A. Yes.

Q. Why didn’t Grawitz rephrase the letter himself?

A. There may have been two reasons for that. Firstly, Grawitz was not a hygienist but an internist and since the letter was being sent to specialists, namely, to those people who manufactured the vaccines, he wanted to be sure that the letter contained everything they needed to know and, on the other hand, no more than they needed to know; secondly, this is quite in line with his customary manner of working, namely, to let his collaborators write letters which dealt with their particular sphere of work, and for this reason, he commissioned me to indite this letter.

Q. On this occasion did you not once again express objections to Grawitz regarding experiments on human beings?

A. That I did not do because this series of experiments had been concluded and because I knew that they had been carried out on Himmler’s specific orders. This was the first series of experiments which had ever been carried out and it was the reason for my very violent show-down with Grawitz at that time. I assumed that this job was now completed and I had no reason to raise further objections.

Q. Were the vaccines of the Behring Works in an experimental stage when Dr. Ding used them in his experiments?

A. No; these vaccines had already been tested in the plant as to a person’s tolerance for them. All such preparations of the Behring Works were worked on in their own laboratories before they were sent out into the world.

Q. I submit to the Tribunal Mrugowsky 44, and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 24. This is an affidavit by Dr. Demnitz, the manager of the Behring Works, regarding the way in which the vaccines of the Behring Works were developed and how they were tested in the institute itself. On the fourth page, it reads:

“Naturally, the Behring Works also carried out tests to
establish whether the vaccines agreed with human beings for
(_a_) it was necessary to vaccinate those people working in the
typhus laboratories in order to protect them against typhus;
(_b_) it was necessary to protect those people who attended the
experimental animals; and (_c_) the undersigned himself was
vaccinated against typhus on several occasions with vaccines of
the Behring Works. These vaccinations had to be repeated from
time to time. This concerned both German and Russian assistants.
About 20 to 25 persons were employed in our typhus department.”

And Number 6: “The animal experiments according to Otto proved: (_a_) the harmlessness and (_b_) the effectiveness or insufficient effectiveness.”

It stated previously, “the question of whether the animals showed a positive reaction is incomprehensible.” It stated also that animal experiments were carried out in the Behring Works. I submit this document to prove these were not vaccines which had not been previously tested, but were vaccines which had gone through the necessary preliminary and effective testing. Do you remember Kogon’s testimony that volunteers were used in the first two series of experiments? This testimony is on page 1,162 of the English transcript and on page 1,197 of the German transcript. If we base our assumptions on Ding’s diary, what two series of experiments must these have been for which volunteers were used?

A. If we base our statements on Ding’s diary we can only consider that these two series were, first of all, the preliminary series A which began on 5 January, and the first series of vaccine experiments with 145 persons regarding which the letter of 5 May 1942 that was previously read concerns itself. (_Mrugowsky 10, Mrugowsky Ex. 20._) This series began on the next day, namely, on 6 January 1942. Any other experiments took place at a later date. Thus, when Kogon says that two series of experiments were carried out with volunteers, it can only be these two series of experiments.

Q. The experiments with which the letter of 5 May concerned itself were carried out on volunteers?

A. Apparently they were.

Q. Can you remember the communication of 11 April 1943 to the effect that the Mateska serum could no longer be used for experiments?

A. No, I don’t remember that and I consider it out of the question that I ever received any such communication. In all bacteriology, particularly in virology, there have been efforts for centuries to breed live germs which are no longer pathogenic (which do not infect human beings), in order to use these live germs for the manufacture of vaccine, namely vaccines with live attenuated strains, because these are a complete protection against the disease.

Q. In other words, you want to say that if you had received this communication, you would have seen to it that further experiments were carried out with this serum which was no longer so virulent?

A. I should not like to put it quite that way, but I should certainly have contacted the person whose institute had developed this strain, that was the Robert Koch Institute, Professor Gildemeister. However, I never spoke to him about this matter, and I should like to believe that he found nothing out about this matter because Gildemeister was one of our best virus researchers and was very familiar with the value such a really unique occurrence would have had.

Q. Did you see reports on the C and D series of experiments concerning the discovery of a safe method of infection, which were said to have taken place on the 11th and 13th of April?

A. No, I only found out about them here while looking through this document and I also saw that Ding does not assert that he sent a report on this to Berlin.

Q. On what further typhus experiment series did you then see reports?

A. In the diary of Block 46, Document NO-265, Ding says that only in the case of a few experimental series did he send reports to Berlin, namely the new experimental series, series I, II, VII, and VIII. I saw the report on series I, having received it from Grawitz, and as I said before, I rephrased it in another form, and it constitutes the document here submitted. Series II was carried out with the vaccine of Durand-Giroud of the Parisian Institute. That was the vaccine we intended to produce in our own institute. I really cannot recall ever having seen this report, but it is possible that I was informed of it by Grawitz, because I remember that Grawitz one day told me that he was convinced of the effectiveness of this vaccine and had no further objection to my suggestion that we manufacture the vaccine according to that process. The immunization in the course of this series was carried on by Ding between 19 August and 4 September 1942. From 10 September to 9 October he was in Paris with Professor Giroud to learn his method, and when he returned, he infected persons and sent the charts to Berlin on 20 November. It was probably then, toward the end of 1942, that Grawitz spoke to me about this matter.

Q. Ding was ordered to report to Giroud in Paris in the autumn of 1942, although, as you have stated, it was already decided at the end of 1941 to manufacture your own vaccines according to Giroud’s process. Now how do you explain this delay?

A. In the infections carried out in series I on 3 March 1942, Ding infected himself and fell seriously ill of typhus, despite his protective vaccination. Subsequently, he went on leave to recover, and when his health was somewhat restored, the business of going to Paris was discussed, which was only possible in the autumn.

Q. There were 4 specific fatalities in the control cases. Now you say that Grawitz probably discussed this matter with you. Did you do nothing about the fact that there had been fatalities?

A. When Grawitz spoke to me about this matter, [I] could do nothing because the series of experiments had already been concluded. But I do remember pretty clearly the situation in his office there. I remember that I brought up the matter of these 4 fatalities and told him that that would probably be the last series that he instigated. He answered that Himmler had ordered these experiments and that I had specifically objected to being included in the matter, and consequently no longer had any right to interfere in his business.

Q. The report on the typhus experimental series VII was concluded on 7 September 1943, and when finished a report was sent to Berlin on 9 September, according to Ding’s diary. Did you see this report?

A. No.

Q. But according to Ding’s work report, on the third of September, at a time when this series was completed but the report not yet written, you were in Buchenwald, according to this diary, visiting Ding. Did you talk about this matter then?

A. This entry is apparently correct. This was the period in which Block 50 was being prepared for the production of the vaccines. Ding writes in one of his documents that on the 10th of August this block was occupied and that work in producing the vaccine was begun. Kogon corroborated that in his testimony. Then 3 weeks after the beginning of this work, I went to Buchenwald to look over the laboratory and to see how his work was getting along. Kogon also described at some length how I inspected the institute, how I went into every room. It was a rather extensive inspection. I asked many questions, had many conversations with the inmates there; he further testified that I was with Ding in his room for only a very brief period of time, and that is also correct. In other words, at that time he did not submit any material to me.

Q. Did you know anything else about this experimental series VII?

A. This series was carried out with a vaccine similar to the Behring vaccine, manufactured by a different firm. I knew nothing of this experimental series.

Q. I submit to the Tribunal as the next document, Mrugowsky 12, and I put it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit 25. This is an affidavit by Dr. Karl Ludwig Wolters of Hamburg, from the Asid Works. After the customary introduction the statement reads:

“The above person requested the notary to draw up an affidavit
and declared and deposed the following under oath and after
having been duly informed of the meaning of an affidavit:

“1. The production of typhus vaccines based on the egg culture
process began as early as 1941. Later on, the prescribed process
according to Gildemeister and Haagen was introduced.

“2. Experiments on animals for the purpose of testing the
manufactured vaccines were taken up simultaneously with the
beginning of the production and were carried out continuously.
The results of the animal experiments were not always clear. The
vaccine tolerance was tested by protective vaccinations of
employees; all employees connected with the typhus department or
who came in contact with employees working therein, were
vaccinated. In addition, all other employees had the privilege
of receiving protective vaccination against typhus on demand and
without charge. In the course of time, about one thousand
employees were vaccinated against typhus.”

To figures 3 and 4 I simply draw the attention of the Tribunal. Figure 5 reads:

“5. As far as I know, there was no correspondence between the
firm of Asid, Serum Institute G.m.b.H., Dessau, on the one hand,
and the former Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, or the
Institute for Typhus and Virus Research at Buchenwald, or its
chief, Dr. Ding, or the Grawitz Agency, on the other hand.

“6. I made the acquaintance of Dr. Ding during a trip from
Berlin to Krakow.

“7. I could not say how the test of the typhus vaccines in
question materialized. In any case, as far as I know, I never
discussed that question with Professor Mrugowsky, nor did I
forward the vaccines to him for testing. It is quite possible
that the vaccines reached Dr. Ding through Professor
Gildemeister of the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin, who
received them in his capacity as expert consultant of the
Ministry of the Interior for the fight against epidemics.

“8. During a discussion with Professor Mrugowsky in the Hygiene
Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin, I only talked about
general questions of hygiene concerning the occupied eastern
territories, and I asked for assistance in the work of
developing the serum institute at Kiev. At the same time, the
organization of delousing by the Asid Serum Institute
Koenigsberg was discussed. There also may have been discussion
of general questions in connection with active immunization,
especially against scarlet fever, diphtheria, and tetanus.”

Then there is the usual conclusion and signature.

It can be seen from this that the vaccines for this series did not go via you from Ding; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. According to Dr. Ding’s work report, which is Document NO-571, Prosecution Exhibit 285, you were present with him on the 3d of September in Buchenwald. Did you visit Block 46?

A. Yes. Ding invited me to take a look at Block 46. I went over there with him; and I remember quite well that I was led to the lower floor of a stone building, where there were a number of room-like partitions.

In the first room there were a few men playing cards; Ding told me that these were typhus convalescents who had survived typhus and who were to be released. I talked to them and found that their state of health was good and that the usual after-effects of typhus were no longer in existence. There were about five or six persons.

In the second room I saw about three patients lying in bed. I examined them and spoke to them. They had been transferred to Buchenwald a short time before from other camps. I think one of them was ill even when he arrived and the others had fallen ill shortly after their arrival in Buchenwald, and then were transferred to the typhus station. We are here concerned with people who fell ill spontaneously. According to Ding’s entry, there was no series of experiments carried on at that time.

Q. When visiting Buchenwald, didn’t you talk to Dr. Ding about his various series of typhus experiments?

A. No. At that time he had concluded the experimental series number VII with Asid vaccines as I can see from this document. This was a series which had a number of fatalities as its result. It is in line with Ding’s character that he did not speak to me about such a series of experiments, since he knew what my basic attitude towards this question was.

Q. Didn’t you discuss the typhus experiments with Ding on the occasion of your visit?

A. No. We didn’t discuss that matter. Our conversation merely dealt with the work carried on in Block 50 for the production of vaccine, which was really the purpose of my visit. I think we discussed a number of other hygienic questions concerning the vicinity of Buchenwald. I knew that there was a lack of water there from my previous activity; and I am sure that this was a subject which was discussed. I spent the evening with Ding in his flat where I met Dr. Hoven, the camp physician of Buchenwald, and his wife. Mrs. Ding was there, too. It is a matter of course that we didn’t discuss any technical questions in that circle. We certainly did not speak about any experiments on human beings.

In this connection I may perhaps say that this was the only time that I saw Hoven, who was allegedly Ding’s representative. This was ten days before Hoven had to end his activity as a camp physician in Buchenwald.

Q. Were you of the opinion that the typhus experimental series had been concluded?

A. Yes. I held that opinion, since it becomes evident from the documents here that the experimental series of that time had not led to any disease. The reason was that the strain coming from the Robert Koch Institute was not pathogenic. Ding did not say that he sent any reports to Berlin about it; and I, therefore, did not know anything about the way he worked in Buchenwald as far as it did not concern Block 50. I was of the opinion that after the second series of experiments, which was concluded at the end of 1942, no further experiments were planned.

Q. Well, if you believed that the typhus experiments had been concluded, the main activity of Dr. Ding would also have had to come to a conclusion?

A. No. That is not the case. Seen from my point of view, he was a bacteriologist; and I was anxiously awaiting the end of this special mission by Grawitz when Ding would again be fully at my disposal. At that time, in 1943, he had to carry out the preparations for vaccine production at Buchenwald. Therefore, the building work had to be supervised. Block 50 was a bacteriological institute furnished in a very modern style with a number of special pieces of equipment. Animals had to be obtained and accommodation made ready for them. There was not only one kind of animal but four different kinds. It was necessary to obtain fodder for them. Then a number of other organizational activities were necessary, which made Ding’s stay in Buchenwald absolutely necessary.

Q. Ding maintains that he sent a report about the series number VIII of the typhus experiments. Did you see that in Berlin? It was to have been sent on the 13th of June 1944.

A. Well, I heard about this series of experiments only by looking at the document here. I hadn’t seen or heard of it before.

Q. In the last entry of his diary, Ding says: “By order of the Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS, dated the 12th of August 1944, it was to be established whether the course of a typhus illness can be mitigated by a typhus vaccine through intravenous or intramuscular injections.” Did you ever issue such an order?