Chapter C: J. Fox (2)

I have seen Troward, the attorney concerned in the cause, and
from him have learnt, what you probably know by this time, that
the case has been argued here, and the judgment of the Court in
Ireland affirmed; so that nothing can be done in it here,
especially as the Term has been over these two days. It is
impossible not to see the use which will be made in Ireland of
this unlucky business. You say nothing in your letter to
Townshend of the Protest, nor have I heard a word on that or any
other subject from Ireland since I have been here. But I much
fear that the alarm among the Bar, upon a point which affects
their private interests as well as their national pride, will
have prevented, or in great measure impeded its being signed.
The only grounds that you can take, as far at least as I can
see, are those which I have desired Townshend to insert in his
answer. The Bill of Exceptions was certified from an Irish
Court. It has been depending eighteen months. The objection to
the jurisdiction was never started. The King's Bench in Ireland
either has been applied to or will be so next Term, to grant a
writ of possession on the affirmance of the English Court. This
will of course be denied them, and the whole English proceeding
treated as waste paper. No Judge will allow--no sheriff will
execute, any English process. No man will again be so absurd as
to subject himself to a considerable expense to obtain a
judgment of no more effect than the decisions of a Prussian
court-martial would be as to a question of property here.

Still, however, I am far from being insensible to the clamour
which will be raised, and to the advantage which will be taken
of the opinion of the Court here, that their jurisdiction still
remains, notwithstanding the Irish Act to the contrary. Possibly
you may find it necessary to hold out some solution; and perhaps
you will think the opportunity is not a bad one to cut the
ground still more decisively from under Mr. Flood's feet than
even by the proposed resolutions. What I mean is, the passing a
bill here which should in the preamble declare the repeal to
have been a renunciation of the rights formerly exercised by
this kingdom over Ireland, and should enact that _therefore_ for
the future, no writ of error, &c., &c., should be received,
signed or determined in any of the King's Courts of Justice in
this country. If this idea should please you, it might be done
immediately, and you might settle the words with Yelverton or
Burgh.

If you think this too like a concession, you might hold out the
idea of an Act to be passed in Ireland, inflicting the penalties
of a _præmunire_ against any persons seeking justice out of the
kingdom; in imitation of the old statutes against ecclesiastics
applying to the papal authority.

Lord Shelburne threw out to me the other day, but when I could
not ask him any more upon the subject, the idea of a paragraph
about Ireland in the King's Speech. I have writ to Townshend
to-day, to desire that if this idea is pursued, he will let me
see it before the words are finally determined upon. I think
such a paragraph may have a good effect; because, when re-echoed
in the addresses, it will include the three branches.

I am waiting with the most anxious expectation the decision of
the great question--peace or war? Reports are hourly circulated
on both sides, but nothing is known from any authority. I need
not say, that the moment it is known, I will send it off.

I know no more of the East India business than you will see in
the papers. I was so intent on this, that I forgot to ask
Townshend to-day about it.

I shall most probably be with you before you can answer this, as
the 5th is the day for the meeting. But if they should again
prorogue the Parliament, and wish me to stay, supposing the
point not decided, what shall I do?

Ever most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

Townshend and Conway have both been plaguing me about Murray,
who wanted to raise a corps in the North. It seems he is an
Irishman, with considerable connexions in the North. Talbot's
inspection makes a figure in the papers.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

(Most Secret and Private.)

Pall Mall, Monday, Dec. 2nd, 1782.

My dear Brother,

I told you, in my last letter, that Lord Shelburne had thrown
out to me the idea of a paragraph in the King's Speech on the
subject of Ireland, and that I had applied to Townshend, that I
might see it before it was decided upon. In consequence of this,
I received, through him, a message from Lord Shelburne, desiring
to see me this morning. I have just been with him. He made his
excuses to me as soon as I came in, for having appointed me at a
time when he should only be able to converse with me for _a very
short time_, as unexpected business had occurred. He then took
out the Speech, and read to me the sentence in question, which
is nearly this: The liberal spirit of your measures respecting
the commerce of Ireland, confirmed by the rest of your conduct
towards her, meets with my full approbation and concurrence; and
I should recommend to you a general revision of the trade laws
of this kingdom on the same extended principles. I own this did
not strike me as being sufficiently extensive. I mentioned the
insertion of the word rights--commerce and rights--but he did
not at all seem to give into it. He said that we were not ripe
for that; that the best thing that could be done was that we
should adhere exactly to the settlement; that it was a bond from
which we ought in no instance to depart; and that a steady
Government would enable us to stand to it in Ireland as well as
here. Above all, he said he looked to the effects of a full
confidence between you and himself, which union and concurrence
would be more important for Government than any other point
whatever--that it gave more strength than even abilities or
weight. With this I closed in, seeing it in vain to push the
other, and told him that the appearance of confidence and
support here would, I was convinced, assist you more than even
the adoption of any specific measure; that in the case of a
peace, I did not doubt that you would be sufficiently strong to
carry on your Government with ease, but that I could not answer
for the event of a continuance of the war. He answered, that the
situation of Ireland weighed very materially with him in his
wishes for peace, and that, although he never wished to shift
off responsibility, yet he trusted in your integrity and honour;
that, if he found it necessary, he should be enabled to state
that part of the subject from the best authority. To this I
thought myself justified in answering, that most certainly you
would never abandon a ground which you had already stated to
him, and which every hour made clearer to you; and that such a
consideration certainly ought to weigh with Government in making
the peace.

He then went on to say, that he had in general no doubt but that
you would find your Government easy and prosperous; he
enumerated the advantages with which you will meet the
Parliament _in October_--a settled ministry here, things
arranged in Ireland, the Parliament fully canvassed, and
possibly a peace. I said, that when I saw him before, I had
stated the possibility of your being driven to meet the
Parliament in the spring; that I had stated it as a possible
evil; and that I wished to explain to him that the necessity of
this would by no means be affected either way by the difference
between an immediate dissolution, and that which must take place
before the March assizes. To this he by no means agreed; as a
dissolution late in February would, he said, by the time the
elections were over, bring us far on towards the summer months.
He then reverted to his opinion as to the probability of your
having a smooth and easy Government. It was his idea he said,
that real commotion never was produced but by real grievances.
My answer was, that the people of Ireland did suffer real
misery, which, as was frequently the case, they would impute to
Government, however little founded such an idea would be. This,
he said, would lead us at length into a disquisition on the
state of Ireland, on which subject he intended, before I went,
to have a long conversation with me, but that he was now too
much pressed.

After this, I thought I could not, with any propriety, prolong
my visit. Since I wrote the above, I have seen Townshend. He
agrees perfectly in opinion with me, that the mention of the
commerce, with so very general a reference to the constitutional
part of the question, could produce no good effect in Ireland,
and might be made an invidious use of. He threw out the idea of
omitting the paragraph entirely; and most certainly, if Lord
Shelburne sees, or thinks he sees, any objection to being more
explicit on the subject, I know no necessity whatever for saying
a word about it. It certainly will produce debate on the affairs
of Ireland, which is much to be avoided; and in the form in
which it now stands, or indeed in any into which it could be
thrown, so as to form part of the King's Speech, it would be of
no advantage to us in Ireland, whilst it would afford ground of
cavil and objection to our enemies. In this idea, I have written
to Lord Shelburne, to desire to see him again; but as he may
possibly appoint me for to-morrow, and you must be impatient to
hear from England, I shall not detain the messenger.

With respect to that cursed cause, I hardly know what to say: it
must have set you very much afloat, particularly with the
lawyers who are interested in the question. In my last letter, I
threw out the idea of a bill in this country to prevent the
receiving or hearing Irish causes in the English courts. I have
shown to Townshend the draught of such a bill, which I enclose
to you with this letter. I believe his disposition is most real
and unaffected, to leave the management of the whole Irish
business to you, and to support you honestly and fairly in
whatever measures you adopt. But it is not difficult to see that
the whole administration and business of Government _roule sur
bien un autre pivot_. As far as one can separate Lord
Shelburne's intentions from his verbiage and professions, I
think I see a strong disposition to resist the least tendency
towards any further concession, or even to the appearance of it.
On the contrary, if any very good opportunity should offer
itself, I should think him more inclined to lessen than to
extend. He either has, or affects, an opinion very different
from that which I hold out to him with respect to the
difficulties of your Government, and exclaims even against the
possibility of your being driven from your ground. I can't say
that I think this situation between your official Minister and
the real Premier quite pleasant, because it seems to me that the
despatches of the one, however explicit, being all written
without the concurrence of the Cabinet, do not pledge the
opinions of the other, which are, after all, the only opinions
which are of any consequence.

I believe I stated to you in my last the reason which Townshend
gave to me, and which Lord Shelburne assigned to Jemmy, for not
calling a Cabinet immediately on my arrival, namely, their
unwillingness to meet them before they had news from Paris,
because they had been hitherto unanimous, and hoped to meet
Parliament so; and if they were called upon the subject of
Ireland, nobody knows what other hare might be started there,
however they might agree upon Irish affairs. You will certainly
think the mode of keeping a Cabinet unanimous, by never meeting
them at all, an excellent one; however, in the situation of
things here, I did not think it would be decent in me to
distress Government, especially as I really think the propriety
of the dissolution at this moment depends much on the event of
the business at Paris. I have therefore contented myself with an
explicit assurance from Townshend, that when news of that
arrives, which is now most anxiously expected every hour, a
Cabinet shall be held, to go into the whole line of Irish
business.

Townshend showed me his despatches on the subject of the
embargo, and of this Irish cause, both of which the King has
seen, but I believe, no one else. The idea of the resolutions
not being proposed till your wish was known, was suggested to
him by me, because, if you should be driven--and things
certainly verge towards it--to any further concession, you will
not be much assisted by those two resolutions standing on the
journals in array against you. But I believe the attention of
every one here will be so much employed by the great point of
peace or war, that there will be very little room for Irish
politics, either in the House of Commons or the House of Lords.

I asked Townshend, an hour ago, whether there was anything from
Paris; and he told me explicitly that they knew nothing at all,
but was in most anxious expectation. The Parliament certainly
meets on Thursday. I think, from the style of their language,
and particularly from Lord Shelburne's trying to make me pledge
you to it, that they are confident of a peace; and certainly, if
they have it not, their situation is very precarious, to say no
more of it. If they do meet Parliament with a peace, I am
persuaded they will stand their ground. The country gentlemen
hold in general rather a friendly language than otherwise. I
shall certainly now stay over Thursday; but after that, get back
to you as soon as I can.

Lord Mahon has been with me, and is outrageous about the Duke of
Leinster. He wanted me to engage that Government would give them
land if the other offers failed; but I begged to decline.

I have received the enclosed from Talbot, and have also sent you
my answer, which you will forward or not, as you think right.

Lord Nugent is out of all patience with you for not answering
his letter. Adieu.

Believe me,
Ever most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

I have not given you the words of the Speech exactly, but
nearly. Yorke and Banks move in the House of Commons; Lord
Carmarthen and ---- in the House of Lords.

You will probably think it right to write to Lord Shelburne,
stating the difficulties of your situation at full length;
because I think his idea of ease and smoothness ought by no
means to remain uncontradicted. If you do that, I should think
it would not be amiss to say something about a peace, for he
evidently meant that I should have pledged you to that, and to
acknowledge his professions, which have been boundless and
unlimited.

I should think it would be also an act of real justice to
Townshend to say something to him about his conduct towards you,
which I think as honourable and friendly as possible. If one
could but join the power of the one with the integrity of the
other!

What answer will you give about your stopping the English
recruiting parties _car l'on est un peu choqué là-dessus_?

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Dec. 5th, Eleven at Night.

My dear Brother,

In consequence of their having altered their minds about
Ireland, I was summoned to give my opinion. I think the words as
they stand now are sufficiently strong, and they passed to-night
without the least animadversion: "The liberal principles adopted
by you with respect to the rights and commerce of Ireland, do
you the highest honour, and must, I trust, ensure that harmony
which ought ever to subsist between the two kingdoms."

We have had no division to-night. The speakers, Lord N., Fox,
Burke, Townshend and Pitt.

Lord N. uncommonly well, holding off from both sides. Fox and
Pitt both worse than usual. The chief debate about peace. The
giving up Gibraltar was thrown out by Banks, and strongly
objected to by Lord N., Burke, and Fox.

Johnstone made an attack upon Lord Howe, which was as ill
received as it deserved to be. I would have sent you a copy of
the King's Speech, but it is so uncommonly long, that it is not
out yet. It is utterly impossible to travel through the great
variety of matter which it comprehends. Remarkably full house.

Bulkeley was in the House of Lords; says that Shelburne
acquitted himself very well. Lord Stormont attacked him about
the Independence. He defended it as the wish of the people. Lord
Fitzgerald spoke but badly. No division there.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

Keith Stewart answered Johnstone, defending Lord Howe very
warmly. Everybody who spoke after Johnstone reprobated him. Duke
of Richmond attacked Lord Sandwich.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Saturday, Dec. 7th, 1782.

My dear Brother,

I received your packet late on Thursday night, or rather, I
believe, early on Friday morning. As soon as I was up I sent the
enclosed letter to Lord Shelburne and to Townshend. I received
from Lord Shelburne an answer appointing me in an hour's time.

When I went there, after waiting a considerable time (which I
can easily excuse when I reflect upon the business of this
moment), I was shown into a room, where he was with Townshend.
It is difficult for me to say whether I was more surprised or
mortified at his telling me, as soon as I came in, that he could
only see me for a minute or two. He then entered upon the
subject of your letter, by saying that he had not read Mr.
Townshend's despatches, but only your letter to himself and the
bill which you enclosed to Townshend. With respect to the bill,
he said nothing could be done without consulting the Chancellor
and the other lawyers of the Cabinet; that I must see the
Chancellor, and explain the business to him; that the rendering
a judgment null might be objected to. I answered that I was
persuaded _that_ was the part on which you was least bent, and
that you would be fully satisfied if the enacting clause went
only to prevent any future decisions, provided the preamble
expressed the principle. To this he said, that it was impossible
to go on if everything of this sort made a necessity for new
measures, and that when a ground was once taken, it ought to be
stood to. My answer was, that your ground was very materially
changed, and that this overturned the only reasoning upon which
you had been able to go on at all, namely, the pledging your own
personal faith, and the honour of Government here, that the
repeal of the G. I. was considered as a renunciation on the part
of Great Britain of all legislation and jurisdiction. He asked
whether I meant external as well as internal? I said,
undoubtedly. He said, that he had understood from your
conversation before you went, "that you meant to make your stand
upon the external legislation;" and for this he appealed to
Townshend, who said he had understood the same. It was
impossible for me to contradict this, as it referred to
conversations to which I was no party. He said that he thought
you was reasonable upon the subject of the dissolution, and that
this other business was not to be taken up suddenly. I asked
what then he wished me to do. He told me to wait upon the
Chancellor. I objected that the question was not a legal one,
but wholly political. I urged the consequences of delay. Still,
however, I could get no answer from him, but only that I must go
to the Chancellor; and at last he grew so impatient as to leave
the room while I was talking, and to tell Townshend that he
might find him in his (Lord Shelburne's) office. The whole
conversation did not last above four or five minutes at the
utmost. I turned to Townshend, and asked him if he thought it
possible that the Government of Ireland could go on in this
manner. He pressed me to go to the Chancellor, and said that he
could tell me, _en ami_, that I should do more good there in
three minutes than I could do elsewhere in as many hours.

By the way, I must say here, that by some inaccuracy I must have
explained myself very ill to you about Townshend, who seems to
me to have acted the most friendly and honest part towards you
in the course of the whole business, and who has sacrificed his
time to me for an hour or an hour and a half for several days;
while during the fortnight I have now been here, I have not seen
Lord Shelburne for twenty minutes in the whole.

I have been very particular in detailing the above conversation
to you, because I think it opens two things of infinite
importance to your personal comfort and your personal honour. I
think it extremely plain that the object of Lord Shelburne is to
gain time, and that let me press ever so eagerly, _which I shall
not fail to do_, still I am not to expect any final answer till
the negotiation is settled, and the peace, which they evidently
look upon as certain, is secured and announced. What effect
these delays may have in Ireland, and what appearance this state
of uncertainty must bear to those who know the proposal you have
made, you are best able to judge, but I know enough of it to be
very much alarmed. But the second consideration affects me much
more, as I think it affects your honour, and my own as involved
with it. What I mean is this: I threw out to you in my former
letters that Lord Shelburne appears to me much more disposed to
narrow than to extend the rights and concessions yielded to
Ireland by Great Britain. I think when you compare the evident
reluctance he showed to agree to the resolutions first proposed;
his telling me that he had thought of a paragraph in the King's
Speech to do instead of them; his then showing me a paragraph
relating merely to commercial advantages, and his telling me we
were not ripe for the word rights; when you compare all this
with his evident dislike to this bill, and with the expression
stated above about external legislation, it is not very
difficult to collect that he means to do nothing till we have
peace, and when we have, he means, to use his own expression, to
make the stand upon that point.

Possibly I may agree with him, that it might have been well for
the general interest of the empire if that ground had originally
been explained, decisively taken and maintained. But I am sure I
know too well the situation of that country and of this, to
think that it can now be held out without the most fatal
consequences to both; and I think I know your feelings too well
to imagine that you will suffer yourself to be made an
instrument of deceiving any man or body of men whatever, still
less a whole country, especially in contradiction to the
language which you have invariably held, at least as far as I
can recollect (ever since you accepted of your situation), both
to people in Ireland and to Government here, that the repeal was
a complete renunciation.

It is a singular pleasure to me to observe how exactly our ideas
have hitherto corresponded since I left you; so that while you
have been taking your measures in Ireland, I have been
recommending the same to you from hence. If they should continue
to do so in this instance, the line of conduct which I apprehend
would be proper for us to adopt on our different posts is this.
I am to see the Chancellor to-morrow, and immediately upon
leaving him mean to write to Lord Shelburne, pressing him again
most eagerly to allow me an opportunity of stating to him _at
length_ what I have in commission to say to him from you. If he
should comply, I will then go into the whole state of Ireland;
will mention to him the credit which ought to be given to
representations proceeding from you, in preference to those of
interested individuals; will enlarge upon the necessity of
decision; and will press that a Cabinet may be held in
performance of Townshend's promise to me. In the meantime, I
should think you would do well to write a letter to Townshend,
stating your ideas upon the necessity of good faith, and the
impossibility of resistance, even upon the ground of simple
repeal, still more upon the more narrow one of external
legislation; and desiring an explicit answer _from the Cabinet_
on these points. This, if you would entrust me with it, I would
suppress in case the Cabinet should have met and come to any
satisfactory decision; and if not, I would deliver it to
Townshend, with every personal expression to him of regard, &c.,
&c.

The advantages which I propose by this conduct, and the mode of
reasoning upon which I support it, are as follows: In the first
place, if it is really their intention to reserve the external
legislation, the sooner you know it, and are able to wash your
hands of it completely, by returning to England, the more
popular you will be in Ireland, and the better ground you will
have here, both to your own conscience, and as a man who may be
called upon to defend his conduct. You will observe that I take
it for granted you agree with me as to the utter impossibility
of ever exercising such a right, and the impolicy as well as bad
faith of reserving it, to become, like the tea-duty, a ground
for contest and ill-blood; without the possibility of advantage.
Lord Shelburne seems to imagine that by a peace he should be
able to enforce it; you know the contrary, and that the hearts
and voices, and even hands, not of the Volunteers only, but of
the people, and even of Parliament, would be against it. And
with what face, supposing the thing in itself practicable and
honest, could we maintain that ground, after having repeatedly
stated the contrary, and pledged ourselves to it in resolutions,
and now in a bill offered under your recommendation for the
English Parliament? In this event, therefore, I think that by an
immediate resignation you will have satisfied your own feelings,
and at the same time found an honourable solution to a very
unpleasant situation--unpleasant from the situation of things
there, and possibly not less so from the complexion of affairs
here.

If, on the other hand, this measure drives them into an
immediate acquiescence with your proposals, you will certainly
stand in a much pleasanter situation in Ireland, especially as a
peace will give you a fair ground for dissolving the Fencibles,
if you think proper, without ever coming to Parliament to vote
money for them. The advantages which we shall have from putting
an end to this almost intolerable scene of delay and temporizing
are obvious; and if the measure comes from Townshend, and is
seconded by me, as I shall propose, it will give you all the
credit of the adherence to good faith, &c., &c., instead of its
being forced upon Government, as it will otherwise be, by Lord
Beauchamp, or Commodore Johnstone, or any person disposed to do
mischief.

I have said that
O. l Fo2c TolB 3Fo3 the complexion of affairs here makes

evident intention
it more unpleasant. Lord Shelburne's c21bc93 193c931m9 is

make cyphers colleagues
to 70Ic aw6FckT of his amddcol2ct. Rayneval's arrival at his

not known
house at eight in the morning was 9m3 I9ms9 to Townshend

till twelve, nor to others till after four.
3ldd 3scd2c, 9mk 3m any of the m3Fckt 3ldd oE3ck Em2k.

They be much pleased, they mean
3fcw cannot hc 72af 6dcotch, but sill it is imagined 3fcw 7co9

to remain.
3m k370l9. I have had no opportunity of speaking about the

Vice-Treasurership since your last letter; I had spoke before.

will observe Barré's place is kept
You sldd mhtck2c Hokkct 6doac lt also Ic63 open.[1]

_Quorsum hæc tendunt_, God only knows.
Ever yours,
W. W. G.

[Footnote 1: Portions of numerous letters in the correspondence contained in these volumes are written in cypher. The above passage is given merely as a specimen, which will be sufficient to show the character of the cypher.]

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Sunday, Dec. 15th, 1782.

My dear Brother,

I am just returned from Lord Shelburne's. He appointed me
yesterday to be with him this morning, and I have had a pretty
long conversation with him on the subject of Ireland. But it was
for the most part so very general, that it is not easy to reduce
it to writing.

I began by stating under two distinct heads the original object
of my being sent here, and what had since happened. First, that
I had been commissioned to explain the grounds on which you had
wished to stand against further concessions, your reasons for
imagining it doubtful whether that ground could be maintained,
and your certain conviction that it could be done only by an
immediate dissolution of Parliament. The second point I said
was, that, by what had since happened, you apprehended that
something further was made necessary, and this was the more
evident from the manner in which every one had taken up the
business in Ireland.

These two points, of course, led us into a very wide field of
conversation. As to the dissolution, I said you certainly would
not press the Ministry for any more on the subject, than that,
even with a peace, and a remedy to the business of the King's
Bench, it should not be delayed beyond the end of January. The
great object, he said, was at all events not to meet till
October. My answer was, that to you, who were personally to meet
the difficulties of an earlier meeting, they certainly would
appear quite as strong as they could to him sitting at a
distance and speculating upon them. It was therefore by no means
a thing to be wished by you, but an evil which circumstances
might render necessary. This led me to a mention of several
causes of discontent which might arise or be sought for, and
which could only be prevented by the Irish Parliament; such as
an infringement, for instance, of the East India monopoly. We
went, at different periods of the conversation, a good deal into
this business. He threw out an idea, which he said had been
often mentioned, and for which a foundation was certainly laid
in the last resolution of the English Houses on Irish affairs,
if we chose to pursue it. This was the fixing, by a sort of
treaty, a commercial system between the two countries, and a
proportionable contribution to be paid by Ireland for the
general protection of the empire.

When I mentioned the objection to this, founded on the
impossibility that Ireland could in her present situation
contribute such a quota as would hereafter be even infinitely
too small for her share, he answered it by stating the
possibility of having a tax on some particular article or
description of articles applicable to this purpose, which might
be so fixed as to be small at present, very small if necessary,
but which might increase with the wealth and commerce of
Ireland. On this idea of a settlement, our conversation dwelt a
good deal. I expressed my opinion that it would be, in many
points of view, a measure of dignity and weight, and
particularly advantageous to both countries, as it would leave
no ground of contest unexplained. But at the same time I thought
the present moment unfavourable for such a step, because it
ought not to be taken till Government in Ireland recovered its
energy; otherwise, I stated that the wildest idea that could be
broached in a newspaper would be adopted by those in whom the
real Government of the country resides at the present moment;
that, till the Volunteers have in some degree subsided, your
Government could only subsist by expedients, painful as such an
idea must be to your feelings. I stated also, that if this was
to be held out to the country as the satisfaction and security
to which they were to look, it would set all their heads afloat
forming systems of trade and government; and that it would make
the spring meeting absolutely necessary, from the impatience it
would excite and the necessity of its being done by Parliament.

From this we went into the present situation of your Government.
Upon this he desired to explain himself, and that I would state
to you that he was _inclined to think_, not that he _thought_,
your Government would go on more easily there than you expected.
He alluded to De Retz's maxim: "_Le peuple ne se soulève jamais
que quand on l'opprime_." To the truth of this I agreed
perfectly, but said that the people there are really oppressed,
and miserable to a degree I had not at all conceived till I went
into the country. That nothing was more usual than for the
people to mistake the cause of grievances which they really
feel, and that this I apprehended to be the case there. In that
case, he said, the remedy was at hand; for that an extended
commerce and the wisdom of internal regulations, would relieve
the evil, and be a pleasant task to your Government. I answered
that such remedies must be gradual, while the situation of
Ireland was pressing at this moment; and that perhaps nothing
had contributed more to the discontents now prevalent, than the
foolish expectations of wealth to be poured like a torrent into
the country by a free trade. To this he agreed, but said that
laws might certainly be devised by which such remedies might be
brought forward and hastened. Then he went into the nature of
absentee laws. Direct absentee taxes were, he said, highly
objectionable, but many things might be thought of which would
produce the effect so reasonably to be wished, that the money
arising from land in Ireland should not be spent elsewhere. All
methods to raise the value of that land would operate to that
effect; because, when the person residing in England saw the
means of getting an equivalent, he would certainly prefer an
estate at his own door to one in Ireland. Still, however, this
would be gradual.

With respect to the Volunteer force, he apprehended less
embarrassment from them, because he could not believe that five
thousand of them would ever bring themselves to march ten miles
together. I said, perhaps not, but that they had each the means
of resisting the execution of any law they disliked in their own
places of residence; whilst your whole army did not amount,
without the Provincials, to six thousand men. And in time of
peace, the Provincials were to be disbanded, and only twelve
thousand men could be brought back upon the establishment. He
asked whether the Provincials could not be made permanent. I
said, I apprehended not, and that possibly the attempt would not
be wise; for that, although you had, by the most determined
perseverance and by an unremitted firmness, carried the point
with respect to their being raised, yet I thought that would be
sufficient to show the steadiness of Government, without seeking
unnecessary grounds of discontent.

There were many other general heads of Irish Government touched
upon in the course of the conversation, which I do not now
remember. He spoke to the reports about the situation of English
Government. I never heard any man, in the whole course of my
life, affirm any one thing more distinctly, positively, and
unequivocally, than he did, when he told me that Government were
upon a sure foundation here. He said that I was too wise to
expect him to explain to me upon what grounds he said this, but
that it was upon sure grounds; that there was a moral certainty,
and as a rational man he proceeded upon it. This language is the
more extraordinary, because the opinion of the world in general,
I might say of almost every man in London, is directly the
reverse. Either, therefore, Lord Shelburne is (not a dissembler,
but) the most abandoned and direct liar upon the face of the
earth, or he is deceived himself, too grossly to be imagined, or
the whole world besides is deceived. Which of these is the case,
time will show, and that only; but I cannot bring myself to
imagine that the first is. That he wishes you should believe him
secure, I can easily imagine, and that he wishes it very
strongly; but that he should therefore be induced to pledge
himself to so direct a falsehood, which he must know it was my
business to repeat to you, and yours to act upon, and which the
event of a few weeks must demonstrate to be false if it is so,
exceeds my utmost power of belief. That the Duke of Richmond
thinks as Lord Shelburne has expressed himself to me, is, I
apprehend, most probable, from the very strong compliments he
paid him and the flattering language he held to him in the House
of Lords on Friday. But this is mere conjecture. What is
certain, on the other hand, is that the explanation given by him
in the House of Lords of the American treaty does not tally with
that of Pitt, Townshend and Conway in the House of Commons, to
which nevertheless the three last have positively pledged their
faith and honour, that the Cabinet has been postponed because
Lord Shelburne was afraid to meet them, and that the report of
the day is that Lord Shelburne was outvoted there upon the
question of Gibraltar.

After we had gone over a great deal of conversation on these
subjects for above an hour and a half, he said that we seemed to
agree about all the points on which we had touched. I then
mentioned the two main objects--the Dissolution, and the Bill of
Satisfaction. To the dissolution, he said he imagined no
difficulty would be made to-day in the Cabinet which was to be
held; as to the other point, he saw much more objection. It cut
up the principle on which our stand had been made. People were
not ripe in England to go into the whole question again. The
moment a bill of that sort was proposed in the House of Commons,
every man would have to give his opinion on the effect of the
repeal, on the legal question, and on the right of internal and
external legislation. There never was a debate on Irish
questions in England that was not misrepresented; and this,
together with the acknowledgment of the principle of the
insufficiency of what was done last year, would put Mr. Flood on
excellent ground. To many of these objections I could not but
subscribe, for they strike me very strongly. I wished to know
from him his idea on the external legislation. He said he had
understood you, when you left England, that you was determined
never to cede that. I said, that as his Lordship referred to
conversations to which I was no party, I could only say that I
had understood you very differently. The distinction between
external and internal, he said, was a bad one, as applied to
Ireland. It was applied by Fox, who took it from Lord Chatham,
by whom it had been adopted, for want of a better expression, in
the case of America. I said, the distinction I made was a clear
one--that England could, in her own ports, restrain as she
pleased the commerce of Ireland; but that it was not in the
power of Government, after what had been done (whether wisely or
not), to enforce any English Act which was to be executed in
Ireland. He said, that this brought us back to the idea of a
settlement; and that he should be curious, and indeed it was
necessary to the subject, to know what questions about English
Acts concerning trade, and what other commercial points would
come into discussion in such a settlement. At the same time, he
said, the subject was one of those which required conversing
with people of information, and which, nevertheless, if any one
was consulted upon it, would set the heads of every one afloat.
However, he wished I would turn my thoughts to it, and let him
see the principal points. I then pressed him again upon the head
of your Bill; I thought it right to say that I was satisfied on
every other head, but that this pressed strongly on my mind. All
I wished was, that he would allow me to state to you the
difficulties, such as he had mentioned them; but at the same
time, to say, that they were overbalanced by an absolute
necessity. He said, that he would not suppose that they could be
overbalanced.

While I write this, I receive your despatches of the 12th
instant. I have immediately enclosed your letter to Townshend,
with one from myself, of which I send you a copy, and wait his
answer with impatience. I was going on, when I was interrupted
by your letters, to state to you, that my conversation with Lord
Shelburne closed with his saying that the difficulties were
capital, and that he could not believe that they could be
overbalanced. I then observed, that a Cabinet was, I understood,
to be held to-day. He said yes, and at eleven, and that it was
then half-past ten, and therefore I must excuse him. As I had
been there above an hour and a half, I could not with any
propriety stay any longer.

According to Townshend's directions to me last night, I staid at
home the whole morning, under the idea that I was to be sent
for, as it was so directed in the King's approbation for the
Cabinet being held, which Townshend showed me. Why this was not
done, whether the Cabinet has not been held, or whether Lord
Shelburne thought he had received information enough for all, I
cannot pretend to say. It is certainly unnecessary for me to
observe, that the whole of this magnificent idea about a
settlement was most probably intended to draw your attention off
from the Bill you have proposed. I could do no otherwise than
acquiesce in sending it over to you, as I had already stated my
belief, confirmed so fully by your authority, that your proposal
was necessary, and to the adoption of it, on this ground, I
meant, if I could, to have pledged him by my last question; and
although he did not accede to what I then asked, yet I think I
should not have been justified in not agreeing to state to you
his objections--which certainly have their weight, especially as
he proposed an expedient in the room of yours, though
insufficient and improper for the reasons which, as I told you
above, I mentioned to him. I forgot to state in its proper place
that I reminded him of the danger which was almost inevitable,
that some enemy to Government would take the business up, if not
immediately done by Ministry themselves.

Half-past Eleven, P.M.

I have just received the enclosed answer from Townshend; and
though it contains nothing, yet I cannot but feel too much for
your impatience to delay till Wednesday night the acknowledging
your despatches, and the assuring you that there shall be no
remissness whatever on my part to follow up this business as
much as possible, and to press it forward in this strange scene
of procrastination. Nothing can make me happier than your
approbation of my conduct, and your kind disposition to trust so
much to that most unfeigned affection with which I am,

My dearest brother,
Ever yours,
W. W. Grenville.

P.S.--I mean to-morrow to write to Lord Shelburne, stating that
you have sent over a fresh despatch to Mr. Townshend, and
referring him to that for the absolute necessity of adopting
your proposal, which still leaves room for his settlement, if it
is thought proper and expedient. The one will remove the present
difficulty, the other prevent the rise of any fresh source of
discord. But how far the latter can or ought at this time to be
taken up, is with me very doubtful. If I get on Wednesday such
an answer as I wish, you shall see me very soon.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Dec. 20th, 1782.

My dear Brother,

I am still unable to send you any final answer, although I must
confess that I think we approach much nearer to it than we have
done yet.

The Cabinet met yesterday. As I was not quite satisfied with
what I had said the day before on the subject of recognition,
and of the preamble, I thought it better to put a few words to
paper, and to send them to Townshend. I enclose a copy of that
paper and the letter which went with it. They were delivered to
Townshend during the Cabinet. I heard nothing at all from him
last night.

This morning I was surprised and shocked--and I cannot say which
I was most--by seeing in the papers the conversation which had
passed in the House on the subject of Ireland, of which
Fitzpatrick, though it was evidently a concerted thing, had not
thought proper to give me any notice whatever. I immediately
resolved to say something about it in the House to-day.
Accordingly I sent a note to Townshend, desiring to be allowed
to wait upon him in the morning. I told him my intention, and
questioned him upon the subject of the Cabinet. He showed me,
what (he said) was not properly a minute, but a memorandum taken
there. I could not copy that, but as soon as I came home I
endeavoured to recollect it, and believe the enclosed is very
near the words. This I said immediately was only losing time,
and that it was very useless for him to trouble himself with
writing such a despatch, as I would take upon myself to make
your answer to the two points it contained: First, that the bill
you had sent over was drawn expressly to avoid the question of
what _had been_ the right, as it declared only what _is_ now the
right; and that if there was to be any reservation as to its
being now the right, I would only say that this would be the
most disgraced country in Europe. As to the other point, I knew
perfectly that every step you had taken was with a full
knowledge of the circumstances of the case, because I had sent
them over to you myself a few days after my arrival in London.
That being the case, Townshend said he would not write, but
state these things to the Cabinet, which was to meet again
either to-morrow or the next day; I do not positively remember
which. I then stated to him what I meant to say to-day, in which
he acquiesced. He told me General Conway wished to see me, as he
thought that he had struck out an idea which might answer
effectually; and he showed me a few words which were to explain
this idea. They were in the form of a resolution, and went only
to say, that Great Britain had, by the repeal, renounced all
thoughts of exercising any right to make laws to bind Ireland.
You may easily guess the answer which I made to this.

From Townshend I went to Conway. Him I found very strongly
impressed with Lord B.'s ideas about renunciation, complete
satisfaction, and the effect of a declaratory law, and of the
repeal of it, which, he said, left things as they were before. I
combated all this very strongly, and at last got him to
acquiesce in the idea of a recognition, provided that the words
were such as not to imply that England _never had_ the right. I
said that I conceived, as this was merely a point of honour, and
not a reservation of anything to be exercised in future, that
all that Government could desire was to use such words as should
not _necessarily_ imply that the right never existed; that this
was expressly the description of the words in your bill, which
were so drawn as to go only to present right, and yet so as to
be very satisfactory to Ireland. In all this he acquiesced, and
then wished that some notice might be given in the "Dublin
Gazette;" that the cause had only been heard because it was
pending before; and that after the holidays, something
satisfactory would be done. I answered as to the first, that
after the opinion delivered privately by the Chancellor, and in
the House of Commons, as I had understood, by the
Attorney-General, that even a new cause could not be rejected by
the Judges, such a ground would be a very bad one to take. To
this he agreed. As to the other point, I said that it was my
intention to state it in the House of Commons, which I
apprehended would answer nearly the same purpose. He assented to
this also, and so I left him. I then went to the House of
Commons; there I saw Townshend, and asked him what day the
Parliament was to meet after Christmas, because I thought it
would give more solemnity if I gave notice for a particular day,
and moved for a call on that day; and that the earlier it was,
the better it would be. He said they met on the 21st. I proposed
that day, and he agreed. Hartley rose at the same time with me,
and being called to, moved for a call on the 22nd. I then got up
and said, that if I had not been prevented, I was going to have
moved it for the 21st; but I would now trouble the House only to
give notice that on that day a very important business would be
brought before them on the subject of Ireland; that I had
understood that a conversation had taken place the day before on
that subject; that I lamented exceedingly that I had been so
unfortunate as to be absent at that time, because if I had been
there I should have thought it my duty to have stated to the
House, in justice to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, that the
business in question had been submitted by you to the
consideration of Government, and had been in the contemplation
of the King's servants a considerable time before any notice had
been given of a motion to be made upon it by a noble Lord in the
House; that I wished further, in justice to you, to say, that
"there was no man in either kingdom more decidedly of opinion
that the good faith of Great Britain was solemnly pledged to
Ireland, by the repeal of the 6th Geo. I., in the last sessions,
upon the avowed and explained principle of putting an end to
every idea of legislation and jurisdiction over that kingdom;
and that there was no man more eagerly desirous than you, that
that faith so pledged, and upon that principle so explained,
should be religiously adhered to and maintained, as the national
honour and national interest required it should be maintained,
sacred and inviolable."

This brought up Lord Beauchamp, who began by assuring and
protesting that the part he had taken was upon the best motives,
&c., &c. He then went into the question of the writ of error,
how far it could have been rejected, and how useless it was in
Ireland, &c., &c. He then said that it was a point of
parliamentary fairness, that when one person had given notice of
a motion, it should be left to him, and not taken up in the
meantime by any other person.