Chapter C: J. Fox (4)

In this situation I feel myself obliged to lay upon my oars, and
to entreat you to return the messenger as soon as possible, to
say whether any and which of the forms will do, or what kind of
thing I am to press for; for I am thrown quite wide. Your old
preamble they will not adopt except compelled to it. What their
objection is I cannot find; but most likely it is the dear
delight of alteration that operates upon them. If you think that
nothing short of saying "They have now the right" will do, for
God's sake say so explicitly in a despatch. I have never quite
lost my patience in this cursed business till this moment, and I
confess now I cannot quite preserve it. After having carried the
great point against their will and inclination, we shall now be
ruined by their delay and their damned country-houses.

If you don't like any of these forms I send you, and yet will
not _propose_ any other, for God's sake send one over to me that
_I_ may propose it, or bring their's as near as possible to it.
Pray return your messenger as soon as you can, for this
disappointment and anxiety works me more than I can express to
you. Adieu.

Believe me, my dearest brother,
Most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

You will observe that these cursed delays have driven us so near
the mark, that it will be impossible for me to hear from you
again before the 21st. You will, therefore, send me your full
determination on every point, and in every case that you can
foresee. Nobody can feel more than I do the painful necessity of
being obliged to act upon my own judgment upon the general
contents of your letters, instead of acting up to any specific
idea. What increases my difficulty is the whole matter having
arisen since I left Ireland, and my consequent ignorance of the
language of individuals on every other part of the subject,
except the preamble you sent over, to which they were pledged.
Would to God that they would adhere to that!

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

Pray return Lord Camden's preamble.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 19th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

I received last night your letters of the 15th, and this morning
went to Townshend with them. We proceeded together to the
Premier's, who expressed great dissatisfaction at the contents
of your despatch. We had a good deal of conversation about it,
which ended in Townshend's proposing that _he_ should on Tuesday
move for leave to bring in the Bill, and that in the meantime
your opinion might be taken on the preamble proposed by Lord
Ashburton. I thought it worth while to fall in with this idea,
provided, as I expressed myself, that the motion was made on
Tuesday, and in such words as should be pledges to Ireland of
satisfaction.

My reason for this, was my wish that you should have an
opportunity of seeing the enclosed preamble, which Townshend is
to send you formally to-night, and judging upon it. You see it
is directly adverse to the principle of recognition; still, as
it is so very strong as to the future, and the doubts being
capable of being referred to Lord Mansfield's decision, I cannot
help hoping that it may do. On the other hand, it will certainly
pass the two Houses better; because Lord Mansfield, the
Chancellor, Lord Loughborough _and Lord Ashburton_, will, in the
case of a recognition, protest against the repeal being at all
conclusive or satisfactory. This would be strong for us to meet,
and therefore I think you may fairly take the new ground;
express your adherence to your old opinion, that the Bill does
not contradict it, but that it was an object to carry it with as
little opposition and to make it as generally satisfactory as
possible.

I am to apologize to you in the strongest manner for not
adhering to your positive instructions. But in such a case, and
at this distance, one must act much on one's own judgment; and I
cannot help thinking that if you had been on the spot, you would
have done the same, considering how far they are pledged by
Townshend's motion, and that there will be little _appearance_
of delay.

Jemmy agrees in opinion with me. I write this in great hurry,
and need not exhort you to return an answer as early as
possible. I have not at all pledged you to approve of Lord
Ashburton's preamble, which, _au contraire_, I have combatted
here, but have said: "I am incapable of judging," &c., &c.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

You must not be angry with Townshend for sending Lord
Ashburton's Bill for your consideration, as I have taken that
upon myself to him.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 22nd, 1783.

My dear Brother,

I sit down to give you a mere outline of what passed to-day.
Townshend said that, in pursuance of the notice given before the
holidays, he rose to submit to the House a proposition on the
subject of Ireland; that he did not intend to go into the
subject, but only to move for leave to bring in a Bill. He then
read the motion; disclaimed every idea of impeaching the
settlement of last year; stated that Lord Mansfield could not do
otherwise; but that this had had the effect of increasing the
doubts that had arisen in Ireland; that it was the intention of
Government to leave no possibility of cavil upon the exclusive
rights of judicature and legislation.

I seconded the motion, and said, That as the motion which was
made went only to the bringing in a Bill, it was not my
intention to trouble the House with much upon the subject; but
that in the situation in which I stood I could not, consistently
with those feelings which pressed so strongly upon me, and with
my sense of the duty I owed to both kingdoms, refrain from
expressing the sincere and heartfelt pleasure I received from
seeing the business brought forward by Government in the
earliest moment, and the eager and earnest wish of my heart that
the Bill to be brought in in consequence of this motion might
obtain the end proposed by it, and set those questions for ever
at rest which it was hoped that the transaction of the last year
had fully and finally quieted; that here I must disavow in the
strongest manner all intention of casting any reflection, or of
acquiescing in any reflection, which might be cast on the honour
and integrity of the transaction of last year as conducted by
the Government of this country, and by the gentlemen who treated
with Government on the part of Ireland; that those gentlemen had
acted as true and sincere friends to their country, and to the
harmony of the empire; that the right honourable gentleman who
then moved the business in that House had declared at that time,
and had repeated the declaration a few days ago, that those
gentlemen treated with him upon the expressed and avowed
principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and
jurisdiction on the part of Great Britain over Ireland; that as
such I considered it; that the right honourable gentleman had
also stated the reasons which operated, and I thought operated
wisely, against the adoption of other ideas which had then
occurred; that the dignity and honour of Ireland was too nearly
connected with, and too inseparable from, the dignity and honour
of Great Britain, to make them desire that Great Britain should
humble herself by an acknowledgment that the right which she had
so long exercised had been usurped; that, on the other hand, it
would have been absurd to have asserted the right at the very
moment that it was to be abandoned for ever: such an assertion
could answer no good end, and could only serve to wound the
feelings of a nation whom it was intended by that transaction to
bind by the strongest ties of affection, as they were already
bound by the strongest ties of interest, with Great Britain.
These were the reasons why it had been brought forward in the
manner in which it had; and every friend to both countries, or
to either, must certainly wish that it had proved satisfactory.
But it could not be concealed that doubts had arisen upon the
operation and effect of the transaction, and that if such doubts
had prevailed--if from reasons, possibly ill-founded, they had
been adopted by many well-intentioned men, and if those doubts
had been strengthened by the late decision of the Court of
King's Bench, however necessary that decision might be, from the
circumstance of the cause having been set down for hearing
before anything had passed in the House on the subject of
Ireland, and if that decision induced a necessity--as it
certainly did--of passing a Bill for preventing any writ of
error from being received, it was surely an act of policy and
magnanimity in Great Britain, it was consistent with the honour
and dignity of the House to set that question for ever at rest
by an authentic and solemn avowal of that which was avowed by
all the parties to the transaction, and to place upon the
records of Parliament a lasting monument of the good faith and
justice of Great Britain.

It was with this view that I gave my most hearty consent and
support to this motion; with this view that I hoped it would
meet, not only with the general support, but, if I might be
allowed to hope so much, with the unanimous concurrence of the
House; because I wished very much to show to Ireland that it was
the unanimous determination of the House to abide by those
principles which had been unanimously adopted in the last
session, which had at the opening of the present session
received His Majesty's approbation, and had met again with the
unanimous approbation of both Houses in their Addresses to the
Throne; and because I wished also to demonstrate that nothing
which had happened since last year--that no change which had
taken place in the Government, either here or in Ireland; no
alteration of the circumstances of this country, either with
regard to Ireland or to the rest of the world; and particularly
nothing of that which I hoped I, an uninformed man, might be
allowed to call the near hope and prospect of peace--had made
any difference whatever in those sentiments of justice, of
liberality and of affection to Ireland which had actuated and, I
trusted, ever would actuate, the conduct of the Parliament of
Great Britain.

After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.

Eden said that he did not mean to oppose the motion; but that
when he proposed the repeal last year, he had given his opinion
that it would be and ought to be satisfactory. In the first
opinion he was confirmed by the following paragraph in the
Addresses: "Gratified in this, we const:" &c., &c.; that he
thought the other was equally evident from the transaction
itself, &c.; but that from the moment he found that the contrary
idea was taken up by Mr. Walsh's precision, by Mr. Flood's
prodigious ability, and by the Recorder's integrity, he knew it
would prevail. He then said that there were still matters which
required adjustment; and instanced several acts made Irish by
Yelverton's Bill, which would expire in this country in the case
of peace, and the re-enacting of which would not prevent their
dropping in Ireland; but I own I doubt this on the construction
of Yelverton's Bill.

Fitzpatrick said he did not mean to oppose this Bill; but at the
same time he was exceedingly sorry that the motion went beyond
the mere case of judicature which called for the interference of
Parliament; that it professed to remove jealousies and
discontents; that this was impossible; that there would always
be found men to start grounds of jealousies, &c.--men whose
consequence arose only from ferment; that the body of the
country was satisfied; spoke a good deal at different times
about the Duke of Portland's friends and their honourable
support.

Lord Beauchamp said, that as far as he understood the intentions
of Government, he approved of them--understanding them to go to
a complete derilection of the right in terms so as not to be
undone again. He entered at large into the arguments against
simple repeal; and, in answer to Fitzpatrick, who had dwelt much
on the resolution of the Houses of Parliament as speaking the
sense of the nation, in contradiction to the Volunteer
resolutions, said that he wondered to hear such an argument from
him, who took the sense of the people of England in taverns and
at clubs, &c., &c.

Fitzpatrick replied to him: went over much the same ground;
defended the simple repeal; then retorted upon Lord Beauchamp;
and took his pamphlet out of his pocket, and reading his last
sentence, that his lips should be closed for ever upon the
subject, observed that he, in his turn, was a little surprised,
after this, to hear the noble Lord's lips opened to run a race
with Government, &c., &c.

I then desired to explain, that so far from saying that the Bill
was to be grounded on the insufficiency of the repeal, I had
said the direct contrary, and had stated a few days ago in the
House, my full opinion that the faith of Great Britain had
thereby been pledged to Ireland upon the avowed principle of
putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction
over that kingdom, and that nothing was implied by the present
motion which went to impeach that.

Fox then spoke. He went over the ground of simple repeal;
defended Grattan and his friends very warmly; and seemed to
imply pretty strongly, though he did not quite express it, that
you was to abandon--to desert those men of high integrity and
honour, whose great abilities were the smallest part of their
merit, &c. It is impossible to go over the whole of what he
said; but it chiefly turned upon these heads: he said that no
Bill would do if there was not confidence; that such a system
should be adopted as to ensure this confidence, not to humiliate
the Parliament of Great Britain by bringing propositions founded
on supposed discontents, &c.; that the judicature was given up,
as far as related to appeals, by the repeal of the Declaratory
Act; that writs of error were prohibited by the Irish Act;
however, a Bill might be necessary to prevent here the exercise
of a nugatory jurisdiction; but that if the preamble of that
Bill was, as had been stated by Fitzpatrick and Lord Beauchamp,
as a case to be approved of, to declare the intention, he did
not conceive how it would alter the question at all, for if the
repeal was ineffectual, it would not make it less so, &c.

I again got up to desire that it might be understood that I had
not said anything which could in any way be construed into an
idea of abandoning, of deserting, &c., &c., men of whom I
entertained the highest opinion--men in whose integrity I knew
Government might confide with safety, and whose abilities were,
as he had said, great as they were, the least part of their
merit.

Mr. Percival said something about a law to try persons for
crimes committed in Ireland in England, and desired we would
attend to that, and give it up. I mean to do so. MacDonald asked
if it was meant that all idea of legislation and jurisdiction
should be given up. Townshend said, undoubtedly.

Pitt then closed the business with great ability. He said that
he was happy to find that, although much conversation rather
than debate had taken place, much of which he thought
superfluous, still, as to the motion and the main object of it,
the avowing in direct terms, &c., &c., that had been unanimously
agreed to on all sides of the House. He added, in answer to Fox,
that he trusted it would be found that the Government was
placed, both in England and in Ireland, in the hands of persons
who would not less merit the confidence, would adopt measures
not less calculated to promote the peace, happiness and
prosperity of Ireland, at the same time, with an attention not
less scrupulous to the dignity of the English Parliament, than
any other man or set of men whatever.

Thus ended this business, without any division or opposition,
every man having prefaced his speech with a declaration of his
intention not to oppose the motion. I cannot help thinking that,
considering all circumstances, and particularly considering my
own very delicate and awkward situation, the whole has not gone
off ill. I am impatient to receive your approbation of Dunning's
Bill. You see what Fox would say of a preamble.

You must not think of printing this debate, whatever you may do
with my speech; because it would not be common justice to other
people, whose speeches I have stated so very loosely and
shortly, and it would be known for a Government publication. I
think, even for mine, you had better wait till you get the
English papers, from which it would naturally be copied in
Ireland, and then insert mine instead. Adieu.

Ever yours.

I enclose Mornington's account to Grattan.

In my reply to Fox I said, that so far from any desertion, &c.,
&c., of the Duke of Portland's friends, all that was intended
was, in the expressive words of one of those gentlemen: that as
it was now necessary that Great Britain should speak again upon
the Irish subject, she should speak clearly and openly.

Those are not exactly his words; but they are in his letter to
the "Trala Vol." Pray find them; for I think they describe the
transaction well.

Rumours of resignations and changes, short as the term of the Administration had been up to this time, were beginning to be bruited abroad. As yet there was nothing certain: Pitt was firm, and Shelburne mysterious as usual; but it could no longer be concealed that the Cabinet, in addition to the dangers which threatened it from without, was suffering in its influence from internal dissensions.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 25th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

The enclosed memorial of Captain Mingay describes so very hard a
case, that I could not resist sending it to you; although the
answer which I gave to the Lord Advocate, who put it into my
hands, was that it must come through the Commander-in-Chief.

Sir Charles Thompson called upon me with the memorandum upon Sir
J. Irvine. He had been ordered by the King to make it out for
Lord Shelburne, who referred him through me to you. Upon the
last paragraph, I observed that the effects were already sold
before the balance due to Government was known. He then proposed
the expedient of a temporary pension till a Government should
fall, with a provision for applying such proportion of the
income of the Government as should be thought fit, in discharge
of the debt to the public account.

Bulkeley spoke to me yesterday from Lord Northington, about Lady
Ligonier. I desired him to advise Lord Northington, as from
himself, to write to you about it. If you should then think you
can do anything in it, which I cannot help hoping, the
obligation will lay upon Lord Northington and not upon Bulkeley.

Lord Clermont called upon me yesterday. He put in his claim to
the Order, to which I gave the answer of non-residence. He said
that he was always over in the Parliamentary winter, and had a
house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country. I
promised to write to you upon it, but gave him little
encouragement, nor indeed did he press it much. Townshend tells
me the King makes no difficulty about the _cordon bleu_, which
of course you will magnify as infinitely more honourable, &c.,
&c.

The Post-Office here have been making a strange jumble, and have
drawn up a most extravagant Act, God knows why, which they sent
to Lord Clermont; I enclose it to you, with my answer to him. We
shall be devilishly pressed in the House of Commons about our
settlement, as the argument of war is at an end; and yet I doubt
whether the people here have either leisure or knowledge
sufficient even to talk about it yet. The latter I am sure I
have not; and even if I had, I should not think it wise to set
the head of every Irish projector here and with you, perfectly
afloat. In the meantime it will be matter of some difficulty to
parry it.

Did I state to you in my account of the debate, Percival's
question about the Act of Henry VIII., under which offences
committed in the King's dominions beyond seas are triable in
England? I rather think the answer will be, both to that and to
what I think Lord Beauchamp will probably move, namely, a repeal
of all English Acts, as far as they affect Ireland; that they
fall to the ground themselves, except where confirmed by Irish
Acts; but that if they were repealed, a question might arise how
far even those would continue in force, according to Yelverton's
Bill.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

P.S.--Yesterday, after making eighteen post-captains the day
before, and after having attended the Cabinet in which the
preliminaries were signed, Lord Keppel resigned the Admiralty.
There are two ideas upon this; one is that he had always
intended it as soon as peace was concluded, the other that he
disapproved the articles. I think they are very consistent, and
that if he had the first intention, he would take care to lay a
groundwork for future opposition by refusing his concurrence to
the peace; besides which, he probably feels little disposed to
any mode of bringing about an event by which he loses so much
consequence, and what is no less dear to him, so much patronage.
I hear nothing said from any authority about his successor; the
Duke of Grafton and Lord Howe seem to be the persons most talked
of. Things are going on much too well in Ireland for them to
think of, or I think for you to wish, especially at this moment,
a different arrangement from either of those two.

It is very much reported, and I believe with certainty, that the
Duke of Richmond has retired from the Cabinet, and means at the
same time to keep the Ordnance. What other people mean about
that, is, I think, not quite so clear; though the Duke of
Richmond's bitterest enemy could not, I should think, wish to
see him in a more degrading situation--such a situation,
indeed, as it seems impossible should last for any length of
time, or a moment longer than till a proper successor is found.

Minorca goes to France, and not to Spain, as Tom told you. That,
I think, is _tant pis_.

I have just received your despatches of the 22nd, and found, to
my great disappointment, that you had not then received mine of
the 19th. It is upon the conviction of _bonne foi_ that I act.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

I hope if the Admiralty should be offered you, you deliberate
very maturely, particularly on the prospect in the House of
Commons here.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 27th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

Although Townshend has probably informed you, yet I could not
help writing a line by this messenger to congratulate you upon
the capture of a French seventy-four and frigate, with which the
war ends. They were taken near Barbadoes, by Hughes's squadron,
after a short action with the 'Ruby,' the headmost ship.

I have already written by the post. The Duke of Richmond's
resignation is not certain; and Townshend, Conway and Pitt
certainly approve and stay in.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

Some particulars concerning the arrangements for the new Order of Knighthood will be read with curiosity. The pretensions of particular individuals to the Ribband of St. Patrick do not properly form materials for political history, and a few letters, in which such claims are freely canvassed, have been excluded from our selection. But the following, which touches upon the small preliminaries to which statesmen are forced to condescend on these ceremonial occasions, possesses more general interest of an illustrative kind.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Jan. 31st, 1783.

My dear Brother,

While you are persecuted by Lords Arran, Aldborough, Altamnt,
and _omne quod incipit_ in A, I have had daily application from
Lord Clermont, which I have promised to submit formally to you.

His family and connexions in Ireland and their weight is the
first thing he states. To this I gave the answer of
non-residence. He says that he always resides during the
Parliament winter; that he has a house and establishment both in
Dublin and in the country; and that he is more a resident than
Lord Clanricarde or Lord Courtown. I then stated the
impossibility of increasing the number, which had been a
particular object with the King. His solution to that was, that
when the King named sixteen, he certainly did not mean to
include himself; and that the Thistle is twelve without the
Sovereign. He proposes therefore that, as he has always been one
of those talked of for it, and _as his friends make it_ a point
with him to apply, you should make it sixteen without the King,
by adding his name.

You will therefore be so good as either to send him from
yourself, or to commission me to write to him, a formal answer,
_tel qu'il vous plaira_.

In general, the list is approved; but they object to the
insertion of Lord Bechoe's name, and to the omission of Lord
Meath's.

Fox and his people are very industrious in turning it into
ridicule, by which I should think they would not increase their
Irish popularity. And what is ridiculous, is that at the same
time the Duke of Portland is taking pains to persuade all
Irishmen that he meant to have done the same if he had staid
long enough.

I have seen Edmonson, who has this day given me in a proposal,
which you will not think much more moderate than you did his
bill for the escutcheons (which, by the bye, he says you have
never paid).

I should think the twenty guineas per Knight for the
superintendence might very well be reduced to giving him _pro
tempore_, and for this installation only, one of the heralds'
places, in lieu of all travelling expenses and allowances. The
Painters' Bill, as they call it, is fixed for the Bath, and
might, I should think, reasonably be given to him at the same
rate.

He is making out copies of the drawings; one or two alterations
he has suggested which strike me. The first is the knots in the
Collar. If they are gold, and the harp likewise, the whole will
look, I think, too like a Lord Mayor's gold chain, and will make
no show; nothing being more dull to the eye than plain gold. He
wants to have them enamelled, so as to be like the strings and
tassels of the mantle.

He will also send a drawing of the Badge, with the wreath of
trefoil drawn in single leaves, instead of the full wreath,
which looks, as he says truly, like a civic crown or oak
garland. But this you will see in the drawing, and which looks
best.

I wish that there was a statute to fix the plates of the Knights
to remain in the stall in which they were first installed. In
the chapel at Windsor they are obliged now to put them up loose,
in order to their being removed; the consequence is, that they
are frequently lost. Besides, the plates of the first sixteen
might then be fixed in the centre of each stall as a mark of
distinction for the founders.

In the Garter there are no plates in the Sovereign's stall. I
should think that the Grand Master at each installation might be
allowed to put up his, as the banner must of course always be
the Sovereign's.

Edmonson proposes that he should have one of each article of the
Painters' Bill made here, to carry with him as a pattern. If you
see no objection, he might do Mornington's for this purpose. An
advantage might be given to Edmonson by authorizing him to
publish an account of the ceremony, with the arms and pedigrees
of the Knights, &c., &c., to which they would of course
subscribe.

Is the jewellery--I mean collars and badges--to be done in
Ireland? I believe there is no workmanship at all of that sort
there.

Townshend will, I believe, send the approbation to-night. It has
waited upon an idea of the Prince of Wales, who gave it out to
everybody that he had sent in to the King to ask for it.[1] This
was the day after the King had given his approbation to the
list, and named Prince Edward. I thought it right to wait a day
or two, to know if the King would speak to him about it. He
never has; and Townshend is to mention the Order again to-day,
and send the approbation to night or to-morrow. Adieu.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

[Footnote 1: The Premier did ask for it, but was refused.]

The "Coalition Administration" was now beginning to "loom" dimly in the distance. Various changes were whispered, and from day to day new reports got abroad of negotiations with Lord North's party. The first step towards the consummation of an alliance may be said to have been already taken when Townshend, abandoning the traditions of his party, told Mr. Grenville that he saw no reason for proscribing all Lord North's people from _office_, although he objected to giving them any share in the _Government_. The meaning of this ingenious distinction is clear. The Administration was tottering, and the only chance they saw of strengthening their position was to buy off the opposition of the followers of the late Cabinet. To swamp their opponents and at the same time keep the actual power in their own hands, was a piece of strategy which might be expected from the general character of Lord Shelburne's tactics. But it failed, and failed conspicuously. Mr. Grenville discerned clearly the danger of this clever plan, from which he could anticipate no other result than that of sapping the foundations of the existing Government. In the letters that follow we have a close running commentary on the state of parties, and the rumours that hourly agitated the public mind during this interval of intestine struggle. Mr. Grenville considered the circumstances of the Ministry hopeless, as, we gather from his previous communications, he appears to have done all throughout. Their conduct upon the Irish Bill, which was still destined to entail division and uneasiness, revealed to him the fatal want of unity, earnestness and activity in their councils; and even if they had had no perils to guard against from without, he saw sources of weakness enough within the Cabinet itself to destroy all confidence in their stability. There were only two parties from whose ranks the Ministry could be recruited, and these two had hitherto acted in public life with the fiercest animosity towards each other. The attempts that were made to win over some of Lord North's adherents having failed, the only alternative left was to apply to Fox. That this application was actually made, and made in person by Pitt, who, with a thorough knowledge of the character of Fox, believed that the most direct mode of ascertaining his sentiments was not only the most honourable to both, but the most likely to attain its end, either by a candid refusal or immediate acceptance, is here authoritatively stated by Mr. Grenville. Fox's answer is conclusive as to the real obstacle which impeded all negotiation. While Lord Shelburne was in office nothing could be done: no party would consent to coalesce with him. The humiliating condition to which he had lowered the Administration, is shown in the straits to which it was now reduced--seeking support alternately from opposite parties, and finding its offers rejected in turn by both.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Feb. 6th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

Townshend's messenger is nowhere, waiting for this letter; and
as, by a mistake, I was not till now informed of his going
to-night, I have only time to write a few lines, just to
acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 2nd instant, and
to say a very little upon the singular situation of things here.

To-day, when I delivered your despatches to Townshend, I entered
into a conversation with him on this subject, saying that you
trusted to him for information, &c., &c. He perfectly agreed
with me in thinking that it could not go on without some new
arrangement of some sort or other. At the same time, he said
that he knew of no negotiation going on with Lord North. That
there was no truth in the reports which have circulated so much
that Jenkinson was to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, Pitt
Secretary, and himself Paymaster. That he had good reason to
believe that there had been a negotiation between Lord North and
Fox, but that it was now off. That, for his own part, he saw no
reason for proscribing all Lord North's people from _office_,
but he should not like to see them in _Government_.

Upon this text it is not very easy to reason. The prevailing
idea certainly is that Lord Shelburne is making overtures to
Lord North. Whether those are to go to Cabinet arrangement, or
only to provision for Lord North's family and offices of
emolument, &c., for George North, &c., &c., I do not know; if
the former, it is clear that he keeps it from the knowledge both
of Townshend and Pitt; the latter, I have very good reason to
believe, would object to it.

In the meantime a storm is brewing, and will probably burst when
the preliminaries come to be considered, unless some event takes
place before that time. Lord Keppel and the Duke of Richmond
both assign the badness of the peace for their reason for
resigning. Lord Carlisle does the same, but I understand his
great objection goes to the Loyalists, to whom he considered his
personal honour engaged. The report of the day is, that the Duke
of Grafton has followed their example. Of this Townshend said
not one word to me, nor did I hear it till after I had seen him.
This rather makes me disinclined to believe it, though his Grace
has certainly had a kind of flirtation with Fox for some days
past.

Upon the whole, the only thing which I can at all venture to
pronounce with certainty, is that it cannot do as it is; and
that if Fox's people continue, as I believe they will, to stand
aloof, they must either all resign, or fill up the vacancies as
fast as they occur, day after day, with Lord North's people. _En
quo discordia cives prodaxit miseros._

In the case of an immediate resignation, Lord North's people
will come in by storm (Fox not having the least chance): in that
of gradual admission, they will sap the Government by degrees.
In either case, there is too much reason to fear the return of
the old system of corruption on one side, and faction on the
other.

With regard to the peace, I own I cannot think it so bad, all
things considered. If one measures it by an _uti possidetis_, it
is surely advantageous; and I see no reason for being at all
confident that another campaign would have put us in a better
situation to negotiate. In this line, I had intended to have
stated my ideas on the day of debate in the House of Commons;
but I am deterred by reading your opinions, and by a fear, I
believe too well grounded, that you will take an active part the
other way; and I cannot reconcile myself to the appearance of a
Scotch family. If it had not been for this, I think it would
have had a handsome appearance in the hour of their distress,
and would not have had a bad effect in Ireland; if, indeed, we
are any longer interested there, which I begin to doubt. Adieu,
my dearest brother.

Ever most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783, Nine, P.M.

My dear Brother,

I wrote to you this morning an account, which you will receive
at the same time with this letter, of a conversation with Lord
Bellamont. I little thought, at that time, that I should now
have one of so different a nature to detail to you, which I had,
just before dinner, with Percy. He said, that although he might
be thought officious in coming to speak to me upon a subject,
upon which it had not been thought proper to make him any
communication, yet he could not help saying that he thought it
inconsistent with his duty to you, &c., &c., not to state to me
that he had last night procured from the House of Commons a copy
of the Bill proposed; and that he was fully convinced that, so
far from answering the purpose intended by it, the country would
be thrown by it into a much greater flame than ever. I asked him
to state his objections; he said they would be best seen by the
form which he had drawn up, and would leave with me for my
consideration.

I did not detail to him the many objections which occur to me
upon his Bill, and particularly that most insuperable difficulty
of its asserting what the right now is, in contradiction to the
declared opinion of almost every lawyer in this country. But I
said, in general terms, that the Bill in question had been drawn
up with great consideration; and that it was a matter of
infinite delicacy, on account of the great variety of prejudices
to be encountered on both sides of the water. He asked if this
was the form which had been sent to you, and if you had
consulted people there upon it. To this I could not but answer
that I understood you had, though you do not say a word to me
upon that subject, and it is a question which will most
certainly be asked in the House of Commons.

This unexpected difficulty has made me determine to postpone the
second reading of the Bill till I have an answer to this letter,
unless I should in the meantime receive one from you perfectly
approving, and stating the opinions of people in Ireland as
agreeing with yours upon it.

It is certainly to be observed, that the whole of this
difficulty has arisen from want of communication from Ministry
to you. Because, if you had known that they were determined to
admit no recognition of the existing right, it would have been
well worth considering whether anything short of that would not
be worse than as it was before. Instead of that, they receive
your resolutions and your Bill, and then pledge themselves, and
suffer me to pledge both them and you to _a Bill_; after which,
they first say that they will allow of nothing which admits the
_original_ right, and when beat from that ground, that they will
not have anything asserting the _present_ right. It then only
remained, as we were pledged to _a Bill_, to consider whether
this was not the best form of a Bill to be drawn on such
principles.

Whatever your answer has been to Townshend's despatch, I hope at
least that it has been coolly and temperately expressed, as he
told me he meant to represent to you that an advantage had been
taken against you from the warmth of your late despatches.

Another advantage which will arise from deferring the second
reading will be, that by that time this strange, unsettled
situation of things must have taken some form; and I do not
believe that this form will be such as you will choose to act
under in Ireland. In that case, it certainly will not be worth
our while to engage our characters to a measure which the folly
of your successor may render pernicious; which must at all
events be precarious; and which England will most certainly
repent whenever the hour of her insolence shall return. We took
the business out of the hands of Lord Beauchamp, because it
ought to be conducted by Government; and that will be the best
reason for resigning it into other hands whenever we shall cease
to stand in that character; which _whenever_ must, I think,
arrive in the course of a very few days.

Jemmy is to dine at Lord Shelburne's on Monday, when he will
probably be able to tell you more. I go to Townshend to-morrow,
and mean to try what I can get from him.

At least we have the satisfaction to reflect, that if your reign
has been short, it has not been dishonourable to you; and that
having taken the Government at a most difficult and inauspicious
moment, you will quit it with more real and more deserved
popularity than the Duke of Portland, notwithstanding the
uncommon advantages which threw themselves in his way.

Of myself I say nothing, except that wherever and whatever I am,
I shall always consider myself as deriving honour, consequence
and happiness from your character and success.

In these sentiments believe me,
My dearest brother,
Ever most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

I am able to tell you nothing with any certainty as to the state
of parties; but I think that neither Lord Shelburne nor Fox are
strong enough to keep the Government without a coalition with
Lord North's people, and that the latter are too strong to sell
themselves unless they be admitted to form part of the
_Government_. Fox's people no longer deny his negotiating with
Lord North.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

Lord Nugent tells me that when he saw the Primate, he observed
to him that, by the list of officers of the Order, there was no
mention made of any prelate, although in other respects the
Garter was implicitly followed; and he says he thought, by the
Primate's manner, that he himself wanted to be that prelate; as
that officer is, you know, superior in rank to the Chancellor of
the Order.

If this be the case, I can see no reason why the offer should
not be made to him, which might still be done by your writing to
say that that office had been omitted, from the impossibility of
giving it to any other person but himself, and a doubt how far
he might like the trouble; but that you had daily expected him
in Ireland, and meant to ask him the question; but the time now
drawing near, &c., &c.

Nothing else has passed on the subject, except a third
application from Lord Clermont, through General Cuninghame, to
whom I stated the total impossibility, &c. I expected Lord
Bellamont to have asked it to-day; but he did not drop a word
upon the subject.

Ever yours,
W. W. G.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Feb. 11th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

Things are drawing near to their crisis. Lord Shelburne's
weakness is every day more apparent. Nothing is clearer than
that he cannot stand a week without some addition. The strongest
proof of this is what Pitt told me to-day: that it being thought
necessary to make some attempt at a junction with Fox, he had
seen him to-day, when he asked one question, viz., whether there
were any terms on which he would come in. The answer was, None,
while Lord Shelburne remained; and so it ended.

Upon this, I think one may observe, that the one must be very
desperate, the other very confident, before such a question
could be so put and so answered.

I told him I was glad the attempt was made, though I was not at
all surprised at the event. He said that he thought they would
now be justified in seeking for additional strength elsewhere. I
said I thought so too, but that I could not help trusting that
this expression did not go to include the idea of bringing back
any of the old people _to Cabinet offices_; that I thought the
line was clear that it was the duty of every man to do his
utmost to keep the Government in such hands as were fit and able
to hold it (under which description I could not include any of
that set); but that when it was so placed, it was idle to say
that support was not to be looked for where it could be had. He
said that, without making professions, he could with truth say,
that this had always been his idea. And so our conversation
ended--at least, this was the only material part of it.

There is no doubt but that they have been making proposals to
Jenkinson, and these must have failed before the other offer
could be made. On the other hand, I know for certain that
negotiations, _through more than one channel_, have been
_entamé_ between Fox and Lord North. This must be _bien en
train_, if one may judge by what I tell you in this letter.

In that case, as well as in that which I put to ----, I take it
for granted that I know your line; and whatever the effect of
that line must be with respect to my own fortunes, I have
infinitely too great a concern for your honour and my own, not
to desire and wish it most eagerly. The only thing which pains
me is the consideration of Bernard. If the interval should
afford you an opportunity for that, I should depart in peace.
Adieu.

Believe me,
Most sincerely and affectionately yours,
----

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Feb. 15th, 1783.

My dear Brother,

I have this day received your letter of the 9th, and have the
greatest satisfaction at that which you express respecting this
long-agitated Bill. Since you wrote that, but before this time,
you will have received a letter from me, enclosing a Bill
proposed by Percy. I confess his dissent alarmed me a good deal
at the time, ignorant as I was whether you might not see it in
the same light. I am convinced now that it proceeds only from
his resentment at not being consulted previous to its being
fixed upon. The second reading stands now for Wednesday; but I
doubt whether it can come on, as I understand the call
previously fixed for that day is to be insisted upon. Before
that time, I shall probably have received your letter, informing
me whom you have consulted, as that is very material,
particularly with regard to my being able to urge Grattan and
Yelverton's authority against Fox and Fitzpatrick. At all
events, however, I mean now to proceed in it on that day if I
can, if not as early as possible, and to _bring_ you the account
of the third reading in the House of Commons.

All this proceeds upon the idea that nothing of a different
nature happens before; which I still think there is every reason
to imagine. I cannot learn whether Fox and Lord North have
settled their coalition so as to act together on Monday.
Jenkinson is, I believe, secured to us; but at what price, and
with what following, I am utterly ignorant; and on that the
whole undoubtedly depends. As soon as I know anything, you shall
hear it in the most expeditious manner; but I do not give you my
conjectures when they are merely such, because I know people at
a distance are apt to give them more weight than they deserve,
and I should be sorry to mislead you.

The Duke of Rutland is Lord Steward, and it is said he is called
to the Cabinet. This, to my mind, argues great weakness indeed.
In the House of Lords, Lord Pembroke moves the Address; in the
House of Commons, T. Pitt. This, I think, does not show very
great strength. The seconders I know not.

You have several times mentioned the Pension List; and I have as
often forgot to tell you, that I inquired in the first instance
without speaking to Pitt, and found that, whatever reform is to
be made, rests wholly with Lord Shelburne, who appears to act in
it on no system, but to add or to take away at his pleasure.
Jackson and Jemmy Grenville remonstrated some days ago at the
Treasury against signing any more till they saw that the act was
to be complied with.

Upon the subject of the Fisheries, I have had a conversation
with Hunter Blair, the member for Edinburgh. There has been a
meeting of the Scotch members to support a Bill in Parliament to
extend the bounty now given in England for the Scotch coast, to
fish caught on the Irish coast, and to give the fishermen a
power of landing and drying on the Irish, as on the Scotch
coast. They went to Lord Shelburne, who referred them to me. I
desired Blair to send me a copy of the memorial, and an abstract
of the several British and Irish Acts on the subject.

The Irish are very ill done, as the two most material, in 1764
and 1776, are omitted. I do not find by any Irish Act whether
the Irish fishermen have the power of landing and drying; if
they have, I should think it _does_ extend to all the King's
subjects; as the Act of 1782, restraining the _bounty_ to Irish
ships, does not touch the power of fishing. If they have it not,
no English Act now to be made can give it them; but if they have
it, we may extend the bounty as we please.

The reason they assign for wishing it is, that the herrings
shift yearly from one part to another of the narrow seas, and
that as the Irish have, by an English Act, the privilege of
fishing on the Scotch coast, it is but just that the English and
Scotch should fish on the Irish when the fish are there, as has
been the case these two last years. The consideration presses,
as the seamen now to be discharged will, of course, many of them
return to Scotland to find employment, and the fishing cannot,
as they state, be carried on at all, but by such indulgence as
they apply for.

Lord Glandon was with me to-day, to ask whether Coppinger is one
of the new Judges, and, in that case, who he should bring in for
his borough. He told me that he had sold the other seat to Sir
W. Gleadowe. I did not dare ask whether he was engaged for the
next Parliament, because it would have given too much of a hint
of the dissolution. I therefore only said, that I did not
believe the names were fixed for the three Judges.

Lord Bellamont is outrageous about the Order, and has been _with
Townshend_ about it; but not with me. I have sent your paper
about Irvine to Lord Shelburne, but have had no answer. I
enclose you a letter from Lord Clanricarde, with my answer. Lord
Nugent has seen him, and says he is beyond measure flattered,
and well-disposed towards you.

I shall go to Lord Shelburne on Tuesday or Wednesday, and press
him about the peerages, &c., &c. As to applying to Townshend, it
is useless; for he has all the disposition in the world, but not
a jot more.

I own I think the 18th of March will be rather too soon after
the installation, and will look too like a trick, and too much
in the style of the St. Bartholemi: and yet, if you wait much
longer, you will fall among their cursed assizes; besides which,
new grounds for tests will spring up, whereas there are now
none, absolutely none.

Adieu, my dear brother,
Believe me, ever most affectionately yours,
W. W. G.

I think our distant projects for the Government of Ireland, are
something like Horace Walpole's "Butterfly and Rose."

Hester is as well as possible.

Pray be on your guard, as I have great reason to believe that
your conduct is watched, and your language and conversation
reported to Fox, by a man about the Castle, who keeps up a
constant correspondence in that quarter. I need not name him to
you.