Chapter CVIII: Preface: To Second Part (51)

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, Jesus, Jesus, how well you can talk, how well your tongue is hung! Bah, never in all my life did I hear the Scriptures expounded so strangely, contrary to the views of our mother, the holy Catholic Roman church, and the ancient teachers and fathers. Bah, now I am not surprised, that the Anabaptists have made you their teacher, preacher and bishop; for to hear such sermons, the people of Bruges ran at so tremendous a rate to the Gruthuysbosch. But I must ask you one more question: When you Anabaptists have children that remain simple or idiots, and they grow to be twenty, thirty, forty, yea, eighty, or ninety years old, do you allow them to die unbaptized, because they cannot comprehend your belief and doctrine? for one that remains all his life simple, or an idiot, can certainly not be taught. What do you do with them at any rate? let us hear once, but briefly; for your long talk begins to be very irksome to these good sirs, as well as to me, and it is getting late, and I am tired, that I am.

_Jac._ To such innocent, simple and childish persons belongs the kingdom of heaven, as Christ says, Matt. 19:14.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah! tush, tush, tush! I say that it is not necessary to teach men first their confession of faith, before they are baptized, as you Anabaptists teach and do, when you baptize, or rebaptize; for though the infants are unlearned in the Christian faith, we Catholics baptize them upon the faith of the holy church, and because they have believing parents; therefore they need not be taught first, that they need not.

_Jac._ Yet Christ says, in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Here certainly preaching and believing are mentioned before baptizing. Again, Matt. 28, Christ says: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them,” etc. Here certainly teaching is mentioned before baptizing.

_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush! you are beginning to preach again, are you? Hence one more question, and then enough. In good faith, if an unbaptized person of your Anabaptistic church were instructed far enough in your devil’s faith, to receive baptism, and he should come to be baptized, and should become so sick and faint as to lose all self-consciousness, and could therefore not confess his faith before or in baptism, would you also suffer him to die unbaptized, I suppose you would? hence your nonsense and twiddle-twaddle deserve no respect or regard.

_Jac._ Though he should die in that faintness, unbaptized, he would be saved through his faith; for Christ (Mark 16:16) says: “But he that believeth not shall be damned.”

_Fr. Corn._ Well, I have no desire to dispute any longer with you. I shall go my way, and let the executioner dispute with you, with a burning fagot * * * and afterwards the devil in hell, with burning pitch, brimstone and tar, see.

_Jac._ No; for Paul writes (2 Cor. 5:1): “If our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

_Fr. Corn._ Bah! in hell, in hell. Expect nothing else than to go through this temporal fire into the eternal; hell yawns and gasps for your soul, you accursed, damned Anabaptist that you are, see.

DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.

_Fr. Corn._ I would say, Good-day, Herman: but I am quite wrought up and angry yet from yesterday, at your accursed hedge-preacher, or teacher, who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, bedeviled and bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists by his damnable, hellish, Anabaptistic heresies, out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch. Hence I must now come here and try whether I can draw you away again from this Anabaptism, and convert you to our Catholic Christian faith; have you a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.

_Herm._ To judge from your speaking, I should think that you are angry, and if you had not told me yourself, I would have thought, that you wanted to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that friendly, pleasant man, who I think did not give you one hard word?

_Fr. Corn._ He nevertheless called me a papist once or twice; but I do not care * * * for that; but I am very angry that he would in no wise suffer himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism and all other accursed heresies, in regard to which I have spent so much labor in vain; and the most vexatious of all is, that though I so well showed, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked, false, heretical faith, as these good lords have well heard, it was all of no avail; ill betide him.

_Herm._ I think, that he nevertheless clearly showed you with the holy Scriptures, that his faith is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; whereby then could you show him, that his faith is bad, evil, wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?

_Fr. Corn._ Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer, that I shall win no laurels in the way of converting you. But in good faith, do you people think it enough, only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ah, bah, all the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ; bah, see here now, what we are tormented with. Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of the damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles of the Christian faith, and the excellent, holy institutions of our mother the holy Roman Church, which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all general holy councils, been ordained and decreed to be believed and observed. But you Anabaptists neither believe nor observe anything of them, except it be very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures; for if there are any matters contained in the Scriptures, that seem somewhat obscure to you, you will by no means believe them; as, for instance, all that is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning prayer for the refreshing and deliverance of the souls in purgatory; nor all that is said in them respecting the seven sacraments; nor all that they say concerning priestly authority; nor all that is found in them regarding the transubstantiation, or change, of the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor all that they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and purity of Mary, the blessed mother of God. No, these and very many other holy articles you will not believe; yea, what is still more abominable, the worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought and are in duty bound to honor, serve, invoke, and entreat, that she would intercede for you with her dear Son, her you Anabaptists do not esteem better than your filthy, * * * sinful wives. And in like manner you despise and reject all the holy saints and saintesses whom you ought to honor, fast to them, celebrate, invoke, and entreat, that they would stand as advocates or mediators between God and you, and intercede for you; bah! is this not a fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why you heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the worthy, blessed mother of God, and to all God’s saints; let us hear now.

_Herm._ That we should hate Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and the saints of God, this be far from us; but that we do not invoke and entreat them that they should stand as advocates or mediators between God and us, this is because John, in the second chapter of his first epistle says: “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” In like manner, Paul writes to Timothy, in the second chapter of his first epistle: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus: who gave himself a ransom for all.” In the same manner he also writes to the Hebrews, in the ninth chapter. But we do not hate our enemies; how then should we hate God’s saints, our fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord?

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? if they are your fellow brethren and sisters in the Lord, why then do you bear such enmity and hatred to them, that you help burn or destroy their relics or bones, and break their images to pieces, wherever you have been able to get at them? is this not a fine brotherhood and sisterhood? accursed Anabaptists that you are.

_Herm._ We do not meddle with your affairs; if you would leave us alone in our faith and in our walk and conversation, as we leave you alone in your religion, and with your images, relics or dead men’s bones, your hands would remain unstained with and innocent of our blood. But you generation of Cain first killed the saints of God, and then take them to exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating, and erect to them idolatrous images, which they themselves despised and rejected, and you honor their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11:47: Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets: and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also saith the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets [which was shed from the foundation of the world,] may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel. Matt. 23.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! would you * * * accursed Anabaptists compare yourself to the prophets, apostles, and to God’s holy martyrs, popes and priests, whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian faith, of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies, that you through the rejection of the sacrament of the priesthood reject, not only the six other sacraments, and all our Christian ceremonies and acts of worship, but also all the articles of the Christian, Catholic faith, as I have said; therefore you are put to death; do you understand this, you uncouth, blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?

_Herm._ However uncouth and blockheaded I am, I understand very well that you put us to death because we do not believe or observe these popish, or Romish, church articles, part of which you have mentioned. And you think that you do God service by killing us for it, as Christ says (John 16:2,3): “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.”

_Fr. Corn._ Bah! you bewitched and devil-possessed Anabaptist, would you also fain claim this for your side, would you? Bah, and would you charge and upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things, would you? Bah, and would you also say that we priests know neither God nor his Son Jesus Christ, would you? Ah, bah! who knows God and Jesus Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this is all spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning the Anabaptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, and other heretics, who in France and Spain in these lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically persecute, trouble, torment, and martyrize us priests, because we have the true knowledge of God and Christ, see.

_Herm._ It is to be feared that Christ will not know you, though you think that you know him so very well; for you are of so many different orders and rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian, the other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine or Dominican, the other a Benedictine; yea, innumerable are the orders and sects into which you are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and rules, according to which he must live, of which not a word is found in the teaching of Christ; how then shall he know you!

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? you hellish, devilish Anabaptist, though we are so diverse in regard to orders, rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics not all comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?

_Herm._ Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless an article like all the other articles of your faith, of which nothing is found written in the holy Scriptures, hence I have no knowledge of, nor faith in it.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer me then, why God the Father should not be willing to know us, who are his priests, for do we not daily, in the Mass, offer up his Son Jesus Christ, in flesh and blood? Bah, whom should they both know better than us, their priests? What will you say now, eh?

_Herm._ How shall I here tell you the secret of the mass? I do not myself know it; but you know it very well.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? if you do not know the secret of the mass, how comes it then that you heretics undertake to describe such an accursed “Death-bed of the mass?” in which it says, that the mass, as it were, is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has in her canon, and of which she will have to die. Bah! and do you accursed heretics then not know the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! may the devil skin you with the “Death-bed of the mass,” accursed Anabaptists that you are.

_Herm._ We have not composed or written the book of the “Death-bed of the mass,” and do you take it so ill that I speak of the secret of the mass? is it not a common saying, also among the papists when they are asked in regard to something which they do not wish to tell, they generally answer: “I do not want to tell the secret of the mass.”

_Fr. Corn._ Bah! the devil and his mother have introduced this saying among the laity. I would that all who use it would sink together through the earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.

_Recorder._ O father Cornelis, the people say it without thinking any evil by it; I have frequently heard priests say it, and to confess the truth, I have often said it myself, without any evil thought or reflection.

_Fr. Corn._ Well, it is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist, answer me whether you believe, that the real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are offered up by us priests in the mass, let us hear.

_Herm._ You must ask me concerning things that are contained in the holy Scriptures; for I have not studied your faith or religion.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist, and would you only be asked concerning things that are expressly contained in the holy Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask you in regard to things that are most clearly contained in the holy Scriptures. Bah! I have heard it said, that you have grown-up children running about at home, that are still unbaptized, nevertheless Christ, in the third chapter of John, says to Nicodemus: “Verily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Bah, is this not something that is contained in the holy Scriptures, eh?

_Herm._ When the apostles, according to the command of Christ (Matt. 28), went and taught all nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they baptize them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime, while they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized at home?

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, and if your children should die in the meantime, would they not go to the devil in hell, I suppose?

_Herm._ No, no more than the children or converts to the faith in the time of the apostles.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! that was another thing; those children were circumcised, and thereby they were saved, though they died unbaptized; bah, here you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes, yes!

_Herm._ Those children were not all circumcised; for the faith in Jesus Christ was preached and taught also among the uncircumcised gentiles; now I am out of the corner again.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? I shall put you in the corner again. Bah! as the children of the uncircumcised Gentiles, that died without baptism, went to the devil, so your children that die without baptism also go into eternal perdition; do you understand this?

_Herm._ Our children that die before baptism certainly do not go into eternal perdition, any more than did the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! do you think that the children of the Old Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day, are saved? bah, this were a fine thing.

_Herm._ Yes, this we think, without once doubting it, and I am surprised to hear you doubt it.

_Fr. Com._ Bah, what do you make of the original sin then, which the children inherit from Adam and Eve, eh?

_Herm._ What do you make of the death of Christ? for John the Baptist said: “Behold, the Lamb of God, which beareth away the sin of the world.” John 1:29.

_Fr. Com._ Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of the world, as you Anabaptists understand, think and believe. Bah, who then shall be damned? no one, I suppose.

_Herm._ Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: “He that believeth not shall be damned;” but he nowhere says: He that is not baptized (understand, in infancy) shall be damned.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, here you lie with your vile, false, lying mouth; for did I not tell you, that in the third chapter of St. John it is written, that Christ said to Nicodemus: Verily, verily, except every man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God? bah! here I have certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?

_Herm._ No; for Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor does he mention baptism; but he speaks of the regeneration which is performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty-fourth chapter (v. 3): “I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed.” Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter (verses 25,26): “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you.” Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (v. 29), the Lord says by Ezekiel: “I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel.” Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (v. 28): “Then will I pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,” etc.

_Fr. Corn._ Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism, when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exorcised by the priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, thus does God pour or shed his Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of this--you are cornered and remain cornered, see!

_Herm._ I tell you again, that Christ, when he talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor does it children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, says: “See that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” Of similar Scriptures which do not concern little children or external baptism, there are more yet.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil; for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does not believe will be damned. Bah, children do certainly not believe as you also say. And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh?

_Herm._ By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also says (Matt. 5:18,19), that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

_Fr. Corn._ Yes, these are the same arguments with which your hedge-preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the heresies of that damned arch-heretic, Menno Simons, and so firmly rely upon this bewitched hedge-preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as well as that Menno Simons? for I am as learned, and have read as much, and certainly much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil’s brood, I suppose, eh?

_Herm._ I trust (or build) not upon Menno Simons, nor upon any man; for the prophet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5): Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.

_Fr. Corn._ This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful, that I will convert you with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and to have your unbaptized children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what think you of this, eh?

_Herm._ I do not think that you are the man that will convert me to your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to it, that I shall have my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah bah, how do you talk in this strain again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems, as though he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned alive at the stake, see.

_Herm._ This you papists could also do just as well, even if I turned from my faith, and had my unbaptized children baptized in your church.

_Fr. Corn._ Be sure, we could; but we would give you the sword. If you will suffer yourself to be converted with kindness, I insure you the sword, that I do.

_Herm._ For what purpose should you give me a sword? it would be of no use to me, for we use no swords.

_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush, tush! you well understand what I mean by it: you would only be beheaded with the sword, see.

_Herm._ After I should have truly and unfeignedly confessed, that I had erred in the faith, and after I should have my unbaptized children baptized in your church, would I then, according to your saying or meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?

_Fr. Corn._ Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you not in every manner, yes, you, faithful Herman, be as good a Christian as any one can be? This is what I like to hear, see.

_Herm._ And would you papists make no sin of it, to shed the blood of such a good, upright Christian?

_Fr. Corn._ Fie, tush, tush, tush, bah, is it nothing else? You would have to die nevertheless, because of your having apostatized from the Catholic Christian faith, and having yourself rebaptized, see.

_Herm._ The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of whom Christ speaks in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, did nevertheless not cut the throat of the lost or strayed sheep, when he had found it; but he laid it upon his shoulders, and carried it home rejoicing.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! what is the use of all this raving and prating? if you want to be converted, be converted, and recant; what shall I say of this? Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and his mother, than I could convert one of these obdurate, petrified Anabaptists; this I swear to you, that I do.

_Herm._ Therefore I said, that you are not the man who shall be able to prove to me from the holy Scriptures, that my faith, and my baptism, which I received upon confession of my faith in Jesus Christ, is evil; how then should you be able to convert me from it?

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? but what devil in hell makes you people so presumptuous as that you have yourselves rebaptized, who have once been baptized? Show me once from the holy Scriptures, that a Christian that has once been baptized is to have himself rebaptized. Bah, I stake my neck, that you will not be able to show this to me with the holy Scriptures, see.

_Herm._ Alas! poor Friar Cornelis, you have already lost your neck; for in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles it is written: “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now, poor Friar Cornelis, here you lose your neck.”

_Fr. Corn._ Enough, ah, bah, if they had been rightly baptized, Paul would not have caused them to be rebaptized. No, I have not yet lost my neck, that I have not.

_Herm._ Well then, I answer the same: if I had been rightly baptized, I would also not have had myself rebaptized. But now you can well hear, that you have unjustly so often called me an accursed Anabaptist.

_Fr. Corn._ But you were certainly very well baptized; for the priest had baptized you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And afterwards, only six or seven years ago, you had yourself baptized again; are you therefore not an accursed, damned Anabaptist, eh?

_Herm._ I was not baptized upon my faith in Jesus Christ, but in my unbelief; and when I heard and understood this, I had myself baptized upon my faith, as Christ himself has said in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Am I therefore an accursed, damned Anabaptist?

_Fr. Corn._ Yes, you are and remain a damned, accursed Anabaptist, if you do not become converted. For St. Paul says, that there is but one God, one faith, and one baptism; is it not Anabaptism then, to have one’s self rebaptized?

_Herm._ For this reason you papists are justly (according to your saying) called Anabaptists by the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your churches their children, that had been baptized once out here in their preaching.

_Fr. Corn._ O you awkward, block-headed Anabaptist, those children were not rightly baptized, and you know yourself well enough how to prove from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, that St. Paul caused those who had not been rightly baptized under John’s baptism to be rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I suppose so, * * * What shall I say now, does it now become fool’s work altogether with the sacrament of baptism--see wherewith we are now tormented and vexed; would you accursed Anabaptist now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah! * * *

_Herm._ I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only say, that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because you rebaptize their children, which they had once baptized.

_Fr. Corn._ * * *

(He spoke here only vile words of abuse.)

_Herm._ Our baptism is nevertheless administered according to the institution of Christ; for in our church the believing are baptized, but you baptize the unbelieving.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, the sponsors believe in behalf of the children, until they are old enough to believe themselves, do you understand this?

_Herm._ No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures, about sponsors, nor about one man believing in behalf of another.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for does not St. Luke say in the fifth chapter, that Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with his couch, and that he therefore healed him and forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh?

_Herm._ No; for from this it is not to be understood, that the man afflicted with the palsy did not himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children which you baptize.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our mother, the holy Roman Catholic church do nevertheless understand, that the bearers of the man afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who hold the children when they are being baptized, and believe in behalf of the children, till these are old enough to believe for themselves; for to this end the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put the children, when they are old enough to believe themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized. Bah, I could very well show you this from the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that you will not once hearken to the ancient fathers or teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that, when one begins to mention something to you from St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, or some other ancient fathers, that you people carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner, as though one began to speak to you of the very devil--is this not a fine thing?

_Herm._ Because we wish to be only Christians, therefore we do not want to hearken to the teachings of the ancient fathers; for they describe popery, as of sponsors, of the sacrament of confirmation, and the whole popery which you follow and observe.

_Fr. Corn._ O you damned, accursed Anabaptist, do you call the sacrament of confirmation popery?

_Herm._ What else is it then? for I have never read in the holy Scriptures of the sacrament of confirmation.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, and are so dull, awkward and block-headed, that you do not understand it, though you read of it; for confirmation means the imposition of hands, see.

_Herm._ Ah, does it mean this? pardon me, that through my awkwardness and dullness I do not understand such very high and fine Latin.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah, did I say it is Latin, see here.

_Herm._ What language is it then? I certainly would like to know.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, that I do not know myself; but we Catholics understand it by the word confirmation, the sacrament of confirmation, or the laying on of the hands of the bishop, when our bishops and suffragans confirm grown-up children or adults, as also the apostles did; hence it is that I say, that you sectarians read of many holy sacramental things in the Scriptures, which you do not understand, and therefore you do not know our sacrament of confirmation, that you do not.

_Herm._ If your bishops or suffragans by such confirmation and laying on of hands could give to the grown-up children and adults the Holy Ghost, and that they spake with tongues, and prophesied as did the apostles, and also those upon whom they laid their hands, then I should very well understand and know your confirmation.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, there had to be miracles then, when the people did not believe yet, in order that they might believe the apostles; do you understand this, you stupid Anabaptist?

_Herm._ If Christ had commanded you to imitate such laying on of hands, he would also do those miracles through you. Hence, when your bishops do such miracles with their confirmation and imposition of hands, then I shall believe you too.

_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush, tush, these are the same arguments and chatterings which also your accursed hedge-preacher advanced yesterday against the sacrament of confirmation, and the sacrament of extreme unction. Bah, though Christ himself did not command us to imitate it, the apostles commanded us to do it; for does not St. James, in the fifth chapter, command that when any one is sick, the priests of the church are to be sent for, to pray over him, and to anoint him with oil, eh?

_Herm._ The oil of which James writes must have been another oil than your oil; for with that the sick were anointed, that they should recover from their sickness, and they did recover from it. But you priests do the very opposite; for if you knew beforehand, that the sick should recover, and not die, you would not anoint them with oil; for you anoint no sick persons with oil except those who you think will die.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, my lords, did I not well know, that it would be the same thing which it was yesterday with their hedge-preacher? Bah, I lay you a wager, that if I begin to prove to him, from the same fifth chapter of St. James, the sacrament of confession, he will also say, as his hedge-preacher said yesterday, that I also ought to confess my sins to him; just see, with what we are tormented and vexed.

_Herm._ Did this seem to you so strange an answer from him? for it is nevertheless written: “Confess your sins one to another.” But when you priests learn from people all that you wish to know, then you let them go, and do not yourselves confess to them who have confessed (as you call it) their sins to you.

_Fr. Corn._ Yes, we call it confession, and it is confession, and shall remain confession, in spite of your teeth. Ah, bah, would it not be a fine thing, if we priests also had to kneel down and confess ourselves to the laity; and would they have the power to absolve us from sin? I suppose so. Bah, what a fine absolution that would be! Bah, and if I here confess myself to you, would you be so presumptuous as to think that you have power to loose or forgive my sins, eh?

_Herm._ Such power as you or all priests have to forgive sin, all men have; for Christ says, Mark 11:25: “Forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” Again, Luke 6:37: “Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

_Fr. Corn._ O you accursed Anabaptist, have you laymen priestly authority to forgive sin in confession? Bah, the forgiveness of sin of which Christ speaks, Mark 11; Luke 6, does not concern confession or absolution. * * * Bah, we priests have in the sacrament of confession and absolution a special priestly authority to forgive and to retain sin, that we do.

_Herm._ Whence do you priests get a special authority to forgive sin, more than we, whom you call laymen?

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, this special authority which Christ delivered to his vicar, St. Peter, and St. Peter left it to his vicars the popes, and the popes impart to us of that power, because they cannot themselves in person everywhere hear confession, and absolve, see.

_Herm._ That the popes and you priests have the special power to forgive and to retain sin, which Christ gave to Peter, this you will not be able to show to me with the holy Scriptures.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? O you accursed Anabaptist, the executioner will be able very well to show it to you, by kindling a good fire * * * and the very devils in hell will also well show it to you with burning pitch, brimstone, and tar in the fire of hell; this I swear to you, that I do.

_Herm._ You papists can demonstrate your faith, doctrine and religion with nothing better than with the executioner, and with sword, fire, rope and gallows; for these are the best demonstrations or proofs which you have, and thus your forefathers demonstrated their faith and doctrine to God’s prophets, to Christ, to his apostles, and to the saints of God, from the blood of Abel until now.

_Fr. Corn._ Ha, you hellish, devilish, damned, accursed Anabaptists, for what do you take our holy fathers the popes and us priests? may thunder and lightning kill, burn and pulverize you. Bah, that I should thus excite, exasperate and disquiet myself for such an accursed Anabaptist.

_Clerk of the criminal court._ Tush, tush, Father Cornelis, and Herman, speak gently with each other.

_Fr. Corn._ Yes indeed, be gentle towards such bedeviled, bewitched, heretics, who do not believe anything. In good faith, do you Anabaptists then go thus unconfessed and unabsolved to your supper? I suppose so; for you regard it but as a bit of simple common bread, and a little draught of common, flat wine. The transubstantiation in the sacrament of the altar with you is only popery, yea, sorcery, and we priests are regarded as sorcerers by you, because we adjure and conjure the true flesh and blood of Christ in the host and in the cup, as you Sacramentarians say, ill betide you.

_Herm._ Such confession, or absolution, or sacrament of the altar we do not use in our church, but we observe such forgiveness of sins, as Christ commands us, Mark 11; and Luke 6, and such breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup, as he in his last supper commands us to do for his remembrance.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, but with that forgiveness of sins Christ means this when your neighbor has done aught amiss to you; but I ask concerning the sins which you people have sinned against God, whether you go with these unconfessed and unabsolved to your devil’s supper, eh?

_Herm._ We pray as Christ has taught us, Matthew 6:12. “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” And we use no devil’s supper.

_Fr. Corn._ Your breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup is the devil’s supper of which Paul writes in the tenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians: Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. But the cup of blessing which we bless, that is, we Catholics, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Bah, and is your bit of bread, and your cup with a little draught of flat wine not a devil’s supper? for you sacramentarians do not bless your cup, nor do you consecrate your bit of bread, but it is wine and bread, and remains wine and bread; bah, let us hear what you can answer against this, that will be conclusive.

_Herm._ In regard to this, I must ask you, whether you yourself believe, that Christ in his last supper meant no other body or flesh, and no other blood, than that which was to be broken and shed on the cross for the remission of sins.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah, and should I not believe this? this is quite Catholic, that it is.

_Herm._ Well you will certainly also confess, I think, that the bread which the apostles ate at the supper was not crucified.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, what hellish, devilish, heretical question is this; never in all the days of my life did I hear such a deep question. Bah, I believe and know very well, that the apostles ate the same body or flesh of Jesus Christ, which the day after the supper was to be crucified, see.

_Herm._ Therefore, poor man, you do not understand the sense or meaning of Christ, though Paul in the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians very clearly explains the same, saying: “Behold Israel after the flesh; are not they which eat of the sacrifice partakers of the altar? Thus also are we in the eating of the bread, and in the drinking of the wine, partakers of the body and blood of Christ.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, you accursed Sacramentarian, would you compare the flesh of God to the rotten flesh of oxen, and the lousy flesh of sheep, and to the rotten, putrid flesh of goats and other beasts and carrions? * * * Bah, fie, what abominable and horrible heresy is this?

_Herm._ You understand neither Paul nor me; for what I say is this, that Paul by this comparison of the sacrifices of the altar (which the Jews ate, and thereby became partakers of the sacrifice in the remission of sins) explains and expounds the communion or participation of the broken bread and of the cup of wine (which we eat and drink in remembrance of the body and blood of Christ), that we thus also become partakers in the washing from sins through the body and blood of Christ, which he offered up for the sins of the world.

_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah, see, now I plainly understand your heretical, Sacramentarian meaning, that you only make comparisons and memorials of the flesh and blood of Christ. Eh, accursed Anabaptist, why then does St. Paul say, in the eleventh chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians: “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.” Bah, answer me once to this, you accursed Sacramentarian that you are.

_Herm._ In the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians Paul writes: “We being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.” Again in the twelfth chapter: “We are all members of one body. If we then are members of one body, unto which Christ has united us together by his baptism and by his Spirit, no external sign can be fitter, to show or signify the union of one body, than that in the breaking of bread we all become partakers of one bread, in token that we being many are one bread and body. Likewise it is also with the wine; for as many grains are ground together, and made into one bread, so of many grapes one drink is made. Therefore let every one examine himself, whether he be worthy of the communion of the bread and of the cup of the Lord, and whether he love his fellow brother with a pure heart: for if he hates his brother, and does not love him, and would besides make himself a partaker yet of the bread and of the cup of the Lord as though he were a member of Christ, he shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, and shall eat judgment to himself, not discerning, that the body of the Lord is signified by this communion or participation, that we are members of one body, into which Christ has united us.

_Fr._ Corn. Tush, tush, tush! it seems that you also could preach a little sermon in the Gruthuysbosch. Bah, this people know nothing else to do but to preach; but you would have to preach a long time to me, before I would believe that a man will eat and drink judgment to himself on a bit of common bread, and a little draught of wine, by which you Sacramentarians would only signify the body and blood of Christ. Bah, I would rather believe that God’s name is Henry, that I would.

_Herm._ What greater importance was there in the sacrifices of the Jews, of sheep and doves, than in the bread and wine, which are all types of the true sacrifice which Christ made on the cross in his own flesh and blood? And if the Jews had nevertheless, according to the command of Christ, to lay down their offering before the altar, and first go and become reconciled to their brother, before they were to offer, then a Christian also ought first to examine himself, before he partakes of the bread and the cup of the Lord.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, a thousand devils, God bless us, if the bread and the wine are only types of the true sacrifice of the flesh and blood of Christ on the cross why then does he say in the sixth chapter of John: “The bread that I will give is my flesh;” again: “My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed; therefore he that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, shall live forever,” eh?

_Herm._ This argument is against yourself, for you would say that the bread is therefore the body of Christ, and the wine his blood, because Paul says, that whosoever eats and drinks it unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself. And here Christ says: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, shall live forever.” If therefore that bread and wine of which Paul writes, were the flesh and blood of Christ, no one could therein eat judgment to himself.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, this accursed Sacramentarian would torment and pester us here, I suppose, with all these abominable blasphemies against God’s true body and blood. Bah, the very devil of hell sits in his accursed mouth.

_Herm._ I have not mentioned one word about the body and blood of God; how then can I have blasphemed there against?

_Fr. Corn._ O, you accursed Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, are the body and blood of Christ not also the body and blood of God? are God the Father and the Son of God not one God, or would you make two Gods of them. Bah, are you also a Trinitarian, I suppose, eh?

_Herm._ Yet you said, when you wanted to dispute about the mass, that you priests daily in the mass, offer up to God his Son Jesus Christ; hence you make a distinction between God and the body of his Son, which you now begin to call the flesh and body of God.

_Fr. Corn._ Bah, the devil and his mother wag your tongue. You would now like to bite into my trap, would you? Ah, you wicked, vile, false, crafty Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, yea, also Trinitarian, because you speak so abominably of the holy Trinity, do you then not believe, that Christ is the second person in the Godhead of the holy Trinity? Bah, it seems not from your speaking.

_Herm._ We only know to speak of things that are mentioned in the holy Scriptures.

_Fr. Corn._ O you Trinitarian, do we not read in the holy Scriptures of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, eh?

_Herm._ Yet the holy Scriptures speak of only one God, and of the Son of the living God, and of the Holy Ghost.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? you accursed Trinitarian; if you would read the symbol[309] of Athanasius, you would read of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, which three persons are therein called one true God, of whom the Father is the first person in the Godhead; the Son is the second person in the Godhead, and the Holy Ghost is the third person in the Godhead; and these three persons constitute the holy Trinity, that they do. Do you understand now, you Trinitarian, eh?

[309] Creed.

_Herm._ I have not studied the symbol of Athanasius; for it is enough for me, that I believe in the living God, and that Christ is the Son of the living God, as Peter believed (Matt. 16), and in the Holy Ghost, which is shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, as Paul writes in the third chapter of his epistle to Titus.

_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? you are certainly fine fellows, that God should shed his Holy Spirit upon you who will not believe that the Holy Ghost is also God himself. But this heresy you pick up and study in the devilish books of that accursed Erasmus of Rotterdam, who in his preface to the books of St. Hilary writes, that St. Hilary, at the end of his twelfth book, says, that the Holy Ghost is nowhere in the holy Scriptures called God, but that we have become so presumptuous as to dare call the Holy Ghost God, which the ancient teachers of the church did not dare do. In like manner this wicked Erasmus is also a great enemy of the divinity of Christ. Ah, bah! would you follow this damned Trinitarian, eh?

_Herm._ We follow neither Erasmus nor Hilary, but we follow the holy Scriptures, as Hilary and Erasmus herein do.

_Fr. Corn._ Though the holy Scriptures nowhere call the Holy Spirit God, what matters it? The Holy Ghost himself has inspired our mother the holy Roman Catholic church, to call him God, as appears from the symbol of Athanasius, see. But in good faith, if you believe the holy Scriptures, why then will you not believe in the divinity of Christ, eh?

_Herm._ That be far from us, that we should not believe in the divinity of Christ, that he is divine and heavenly, and not earthly, as you people believe; therefore we are put to death by you.

_Fr. Corn._ * * * Bah, we put you to death, because you people will not believe, that Christ assumed the seed of Mary his blessed mother, see.

_Herm._ We believe that the word became flesh, as John writes in the first chapter of his gospel. _Fr. Corn._ Bah, now I have got you well cornered; for God was the word. And if God became flesh, why then would you bite into my trap, because I say, God’s flesh, God’s body, and God’s blood, eh?

_Herm._ We too believe that God was the word; but would you then therefrom understand, that the living God (of whom Christ is the Son) became himself flesh? this were certainly contrary to the entire holy Scriptures.

_Fr. Corn._ Yet Christ says, John 10:30; “I and my Father are one.” Again, John 14:9: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Bah, where are you now, eh?

_Herm._ Christ also says (John 17:21–23): “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.” Again (Acts 4:32): “The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul.” Again, Paul to the Galatians (3:8) says: “For ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Again (Ephesians 5:31,32): “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery.”