Chapter XV: Book 1: , Page 7 (4)

This relationship was based on three ties. First of all, I accepted and agreed to the national and social ideas of National Socialism: the national ideas which found expression in the honor and dignity of the nation, its freedom, and its equality among nations and its security; and the social tenets which had perhaps as their basis: no class struggle, but human and social respect of each person regardless of his class, profession, or economic position, and on the other hand, subordination of each and every one to the interests of the common weal. Naturally I regarded Adolf Hitler’s high authority with admiration and joyfully acknowledged it, when in times of peace he succeeded so quickly and without bloodshed in realizing his national and social objectives.

My second tie was my oath. Adolf Hitler had, in a legal and lawful way, become the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, to whom the Wehrmacht had sworn its oath of allegiance. That this oath was sacred to me is self-evident and I believe that decency in this world will everywhere be on the side of him who keeps his oath.

The third tie was my personal relationship: Before I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I believe Hitler had no definite conception of me and my person. He had seen me too few times and always in large circles. How my relationship to him would shape itself was therefore a completely open question when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. My start in this connection was very unfavorable. It was made difficult, first, by the imminent and then the actual collapse of U-boat warfare and, secondly, by my refusal, just as Grossadmiral Raeder had already refused, to scrap the large ships, which in Hitler’s opinion had no fighting value in view of the oppressive superiority of the foe. I, like Grossadmiral Raeder, had opposed the scrapping of these ships, and only after a quarrel did he finally agree. But, despite that, I noticed very soon that in Navy matters he had confidence in me and in other respects as well treated me with decided respect.

Adolf Hitler always saw in me only the first soldier of the Navy. He never asked for my advice in military matters which did not concern the Navy, either in regard to the Army or the Air Force; nor did I ever express my opinion about matters concerning the Army or the Air Force, because basically I did not have sufficient knowledge of these matters. Of course, he never consulted me on political matters of a domestic or foreign nature.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You said, Admiral, that he never asked you for advice on political matters. But those matters might have come up in connection with Navy questions. Did you not participate then either?

DÖNITZ: If by “political” you mean, for instance, consultations of the commanders with the so-called “National Socialist Leadership Officers,” then, of course, I participated, because this came within the sphere of the Navy, or rather was to become a Navy concern. That was naturally the case.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Beyond those questions, did Hitler ever consider you a general adviser, as the Prosecution claims and as they concluded from the long list of meetings which you have had with Hitler since 1943 at his headquarters?

DÖNITZ: First of all, as a matter of principle, there can be no question of a general consultation with the Führer; as I have already said, the Führer asked for and received advice from me only in matters concerning the Navy and the conduct of naval warfare—matters exclusively and absolutely restricted to my sphere of activity.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: According to the table submitted, between 1943 and 1945 you were called sometimes once and sometimes twice a month to the Führer’s headquarters. Please describe to the Tribunal just what happened, as far as you were concerned, on a day like that at the Führer’s headquarters—what you had to do there.

DÖNITZ: Until 2 or 3 months before the collapse, when the Führer was in Berlin, I flew to his headquarters about every 2 or 3 weeks, but only if I had some concrete Navy matter for which I needed his decision. On those occasions I participated in the noontime discussion of the general military situation, that is, the report which the Führer’s staff made to him about what had taken place on the fighting fronts within the last 24 hours. At these military discussions the Army and Air Force situation was of primary importance, and I spoke only when my Naval expert was reporting the naval situation and he needed me to supplement his report. Then at a given moment, which was fixed by the Adjutant’s Office, I gave my military report which was the purpose of my journey. When rendering this report only those were present whom these matters concerned, that is, when it was a question of reinforcements, _et cetera_, Field Marshal Keitel or Generaloberst Jodl were generally present.

When I came to his headquarters every 2 or 3 weeks—later in 1944 there was sometimes an interval of 6 weeks—the Führer invited me to lunch. These invitations ceased completely after 20 July 1944, the day of the attempted assassination.

I never received from the Führer an order which in any way violated the ethics of war. Neither I nor anyone in the Navy—and this is my conviction—knew anything about the mass extermination of people, which I learned about here from the Indictment, or, as far as the concentration camps are concerned, after the capitulation in May 1945.

In Hitler I saw a powerful personality who had extraordinary intelligence and energy and a practically universal knowledge, from whom power seemed to emanate and who was possessed of a remarkable power of suggestion. On the other hand, I purposely very seldom went to his headquarters, for I had the feeling that I would best preserve my power of initiative that way and, secondly, because after several days, say 2 or 3 days at his headquarters, I had the feeling that I had to disengage myself from his power of suggestion. I am telling you this because in this connection I was doubtless more fortunate than his staff who were constantly exposed to his powerful personality with its power of suggestion.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You said just now, Admiral, that you never received an order which was in violation of military ethics. You know the Commando Order of the autumn of 1942. Did you not receive this order?

DÖNITZ: I was informed of this order after it was issued while I was still Commander of the U-boats. For the soldiers at the front this order was unequivocal. I had the feeling that it was a very grave matter; but under Point 1 of this order it was clearly and unequivocally expressed that members of the enemy forces, because of their behavior, because of the killing of prisoners, had placed themselves outside the Geneva Convention and that therefore the Führer had ordered reprisals and that those reprisal measures, in addition, had been published in the Wehrmacht report.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Therefore, the soldier who received this order had no right, no possibility, and no authority to demand a justification or an investigation; does this mean such an order was justified? As Commander of the U-boats did you have anything to do with the execution of this order?

DÖNITZ: No, not in the slightest.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: As far as you remember, did you as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy have anything to do with the carrying out of this order?

DÖNITZ: As far as I remember I was never concerned with this order as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. One should not forget, first, that this decree excludes expressly those taken prisoner in battles at sea and, second, that the Navy had no territorial authority on land, and for this latter reason found itself less often in a position of having to carry out any point of this order.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You know the document submitted by the Prosecution, which describes how in the summer of 1943 a Commando unit was shot in Norway. I mean the Prosecution’s Exhibit GB-208. The incident is described there as showing that the crew of a Norwegian motor torpedo boat were taken prisoner on a Norwegian island. This motor torpedo boat was charged with belligerent missions at sea. The document does not say who took the crew prisoner, but it does say that the members of the crew were wearing their uniforms when they were taken prisoner, that they were interrogated by a naval officer, and that on the order of Admiral Von Schrader they were turned over to the SD. The SD later shot them. Did you know about this incident or was it reported to you as Commander-in-Chief?

DÖNITZ: I learned about this incident from the trial brief of the Prosecution.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you explain the fact that an incident of this nature was not brought to your attention? Would this not have had to be reported to you?

DÖNITZ: If the Navy was concerned in this matter, that is, if this crew had been captured by the Navy, Admiral Von Schrader, who was the commander there, would absolutely have had to report this matter to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. I am also convinced that he would have done so, for the regulations regarding this were unequivocal. I am also convinced that the naval expert at the Navy High Command, who was concerned with such matters, would have reported this to me as Commander-in-Chief.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What is your opinion about this case now that you have learned about it through the document of the Prosecution?

DÖNITZ: If it is correct that it concerns the crew of a motor torpedo boat which had belligerent missions at sea, then this measure, the shooting which took place, was entirely wrong in any case, for it was in direct opposition even to this Commando Order. But I consider it completely out of the question, for I do not believe that Admiral Von Schrader, whom I know personally to be an especially chivalrous sailor, would have had a hand in anything of this sort. From the circumstances of this incident, the fact that it was not reported to the High Command, that this incident, as has now been ascertained by perusal of the German newspapers of that time, was never mentioned in the Wehrmacht communiqué, as would have been the case if it had been a matter concerning the Wehrmacht, from all these circumstances I assume that the incident was as follows:

That the police arrested these people on the island; that they were taken from this island by vessel to Bergen; that there one or two, if I remember correctly, naval officers interrogated them, since the Navy, of course, was interested in this interrogation; and that then these people were handed over to the SD, since they had already been taken prisoner by the SD. I cannot explain it otherwise.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You wish to say, then, that in your opinion these men had never been prisoners of the Navy?

DÖNITZ: No. If they had been, a report to the High Command would have been made.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Quite apart from these questions I should like to ask you, did you not in your position as Commander-in-Chief, and during your visits to the Führer’s headquarters, have experiences which made you consider disassociating yourself from Adolf Hitler?

DÖNITZ: I have already stated that as far as my activity was concerned, even at headquarters, I was strictly limited to my own department, since it was a peculiarity of the Führer’s to listen to a person only about matters which were that person’s express concern. It was also self-evident that at the discussions of the military situation only purely military matters were discussed, that is, no problems of domestic policy, of the SD, or the SS, unless it was a question of SS divisions in military service under one of the army commanders. Therefore I had no knowledge of all these things. As I have already said, I never received an order from the Führer which in any way violated military ethics. Thus I firmly believe that in every respect I kept the Navy unsullied down to the last man until the end. In naval warfare my attention was focused on the sea; and the Navy, small as it was, tried to fulfill its duty according to its tasks. Therefore I had no reason at all to break with the Führer.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Such a reason would not necessarily refer to a crime; it could also have been, for political considerations, having nothing to do with crimes. You have heard the question broached repeatedly as to whether there should have been a Putsch. Did you enter into contact with such a movement or did you yourself consider or attempt a Putsch?

DÖNITZ: No. The word “Putsch” has been used frequently in this courtroom by a wide variety of people. It is easy to say so, but I believe that one would have had to realize the tremendous significance of such an activity.

The German nation was involved in a struggle of life and death. It was surrounded by enemies almost like a fortress. And it is clear, to keep to the simile of the fortress, that every disturbance from within would without doubt perforce have affected our military might and fighting power. Anyone, therefore, who violates his loyalty and his oath to plan and try to bring about an overthrow during such a struggle for survival must be most deeply convinced that the nation needs such an overthrow at all costs and must be aware of his responsibility.

Despite this, every nation will judge such a man to be a traitor, and history will not vindicate him unless the success of the overthrow actually contributes to the welfare and prosperity of his people. This, however, would not have been the case in Germany.

If, for instance, the Putsch of 20 July had been successful, then a dissolution, if only a gradual one, would have resulted inside Germany—a fight against the bearers of weapons, here the SS, there another group, complete chaos inside Germany—for the firm structure of the State would gradually have been destroyed and disintegration and a reduction of our fighting power at the front would have inevitably resulted.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the defendant is making a long and political speech. It really hasn’t very much to do with the questions with which we have to deal.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I was of the opinion that the question of whether a Commander-in-Chief is obliged to bring about a Putsch was regarded as a main point by the Prosecution, a point having a bearing on the question of whether he declared himself in agreement or not with the system which is being characterized as criminal. If the Tribunal considers this question irrelevant I do not want to press it further.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t think the Prosecution has put forward the view that anybody had to create a Putsch.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: It seemed to me a self-evident view of the Prosecution.

Admiral, the Prosecution has submitted two documents, dating from the winter of 1943 and May 1945, containing speeches made by you to the troops. You are accused by the Prosecution of preaching National Socialist ideas to the troops. Please define your position on this point.

DÖNITZ: When in February 1943 I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I was responsible for the fighting power of the entire Navy. A main source of strength in this war was the unity of our people. And those who had most to gain from this unity were the Armed Forces, for any rupture inside Germany would perforce have had an effect on the troops and would have reduced that fighting spirit which was their mission. The Navy, in particular, in the first World War, had had bitter experiences in this direction in 1917-18.

Therefore in all of my speeches I tried to preserve this unity and the feeling that we were the guarantors of this unity. This was necessary and right, and particularly necessary for me as a leader of troops. I could not preach disunity or dissolution, and it had its effect. Fighting power and discipline in the Navy were of a high standard until the end. And I believe that in every nation such an achievement is considered a proper and good achievement for a leader of troops. These are my reasons for talking the way I did.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: On 30 April 1945 you became head of the State as Adolf Hitler’s successor; and the Prosecution concludes from this that prior to that time also you must have been a close confidant of Hitler’s, since only a confidant of his would have been chosen to be Hitler’s successor where matters of state were concerned. Will you tell me how you came to be his successor and whether Hitler before that time ever spoke to you about this possibility?

DÖNITZ: From 20 July 1944 on I did not see Hitler alone, but only at the large discussions of the military situation. He never spoke to me about the question of a successor, not even by way of hinting. This was entirely natural and clear since, according to law, the Reich Marshal was his successor; and the regrettable misunderstanding between the Führer and the Reich Marshal did not occur until the end of April 1945, at a time when I was no longer in Berlin.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Where were you?

DÖNITZ: I was in Holstein. Therefore, I did not have the slightest inkling, nor did the Führer, that I was to become his successor.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Just how, through what measures or orders, did that actually come about?

DÖNITZ: On 30 April 1945, in the evening, I received a radio message from headquarters to the effect that the Führer was designating me his successor and that I was authorized to take at once all measures which I considered necessary.

The next morning, that is on 1 May, I received another radio message, a more detailed directive, which said that I was to be Reich President; Minister Goebbels, Reich Chancellor; Bormann, Party Minister; and Seyss-Inquart, Foreign Minister.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you adhere to this directive?

DÖNITZ: This radio message first of all contradicted the earlier radio message which clearly stated: “You can at once do everything you consider to be right.” I did not and as a matter of principle never would adhere to this second radio message, for if I am to take responsibility, then no conditions must be imposed on me. Thirdly, under no circumstances would I have agreed to working with the people mentioned, with the exception of Seyss-Inquart.

In the early morning of 1 May I had already had a discussion with the Minister of Finance, Count Schwerin von Krosigk, and had asked him to take over the business of government, insofar as we could still talk about that. I had done this because in a chance discussion, which had taken place several days before, I had seen that we held much the same view, the view that the German people belonged to the Christian West, that the basis of future conditions of life is the absolute legal security of the individual and of private property.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral, you know the so-called “Political Testament” of Adolf Hitler, in which you are charged with continuing the war. Did you receive an order of this sort at that time?

DÖNITZ: No. I saw this Testament for the first time a few weeks ago here, when it was made public in the press. As I have said, I would not have accepted any order, any restriction of my activity at the time when Germany’s position was hopeless and I was given the responsibility.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution has submitted a document in which you exhorted the war leaders in the spring of 1945 to carry on tenaciously to the end. It is Exhibit GB-212. You are accused in this connection of being a fanatical Nazi who was ready to carry on a hopeless war at the expense of the women and children of your people. Please define your position in respect to this particularly grave accusation.

DÖNITZ: In this connection I can say the following: In the spring of 1945 I was not head of the State; I was a soldier. To continue the fight or not to continue the fight was a political decision. The head of the State wanted to continue the fight. I as a soldier had to obey. It is an impossibility that in a state one soldier should declare, “I shall continue to fight,” while another declares, “I shall not continue the fight.” I could not have given any other advice, the way I saw things; and for the following reasons:

First: In the East the collapse of our front at one point meant the extermination of the people living behind that front. We knew that because of practical experiences and because of all the reports which we had about this. It was the belief of all the people that the soldier in the East had to do his military duty in these hard months of the war, these last hard months of the war. This was especially important because otherwise German women and children would have perished.

The Navy was involved to a considerable extent in the East. It had about 100,000 men on land, and the entire surface craft were concentrated in the Baltic for the transport of troops, weapons, wounded, and above all, refugees. Therefore the very existence of the German people in this last hard period depended above all on the soldiers carrying on tenaciously to the end.

Secondly: If we had capitulated in the first few months of the spring or in the winter of 1945, then from everything we knew about the enemy’s intentions the country would, according to the Yalta Agreement, have been ruinously torn asunder and partitioned and the German land occupied in the same way as it is today.

Thirdly: Capitulation means that the army, the soldiers, stay where they are and become prisoners. That means that if we had capitulated in January or February 1945, 2 million soldiers in the East, for example, would have fallen into the hands of the Russians. That these millions could not possibly have been cared for during the cold winter is obvious; and we would have lost men on a very large scale, for even at the time of the capitulation in May 1945—that is, in the late spring—it was not possible in the West to take care of the large masses of prisoners according to the Geneva Convention. Then, as I have already said, since the Yalta Agreement would have been put into effect, we would have lost in the East a much larger number of people who had not yet fled from there.

When on 1 May I became head of the State, circumstances were different. By that time the fronts, the Eastern and Western fronts, had come so close to each other that in a few days people, troops, soldiers, armies, and the great masses of refugees could be transported, from the East to the West. When I became head of the State on 1 May, I therefore strove to make peace as quickly as possible and to capitulate, thus saving German blood and bringing German people from the East to the West; and I acted accordingly, already on 2 May, by making overtures to General Montgomery to capitulate for the territory facing his army, and for Holland and Denmark which we still held firmly; and immediately following that I opened negotiations with General Eisenhower.

The same basic principle—to save and preserve the German population—motivated me in the winter to face bitter necessity and keep on fighting. It was very painful that our cities were still being bombed to pieces and that through these bombing attacks and the continued fight more lives were lost. The number of these people is about 300,000 to 400,000, the majority of whom perished in the bombing attack of Dresden, which cannot be understood from a military point of view and which could not have been predicted. Nevertheless, this figure is relatively small compared with the millions of German people, soldiers and civilian population, we would have lost in the East if we had capitulated in the winter.

Therefore, in my opinion, it was necessary to act as I did: First while I was still a soldier, to call on my troops to keep up the fight, and afterwards, when I became head of the State in May, to capitulate at once. Thereby no German lives were lost; rather they were saved.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.

[_A recess was taken._]

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the Defendants’ Counsel wish to ask questions?

DR. WALTER SIEMERS (Counsel for Defendant Raeder): Admiral Dönitz, you have already explained that Grossadmiral Raeder and the Navy in the summer of 1939 did not believe, despite certain ominous signs, that war was about to break out. Since you saw Grossadmiral Raeder in the summer of 1939, I should like you briefly to supplement this point. First of all, on what occasion did you have a detailed conversation with Grossadmiral Raeder?

DÖNITZ: Grossadmiral Raeder embarked in the middle of July 1939 for submarine maneuvers of my fleet in the Baltic Sea. Following the maneuvers...

DR. SIEMERS: May I first ask you something? What sort of maneuvers were they? How large were they and where did they take place?

DÖNITZ: All submarines which had completed their tests I had assembled in the Baltic. I cannot remember the exact figure, but I think there were about 30. In the maneuvers I then showed Grossadmiral Raeder what these submarines could accomplish.

DR. SIEMERS: Were all those submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic?

DÖNITZ: Yes, they were, and in addition there were the smaller submarines of lower tonnage, which could operate only as far as the North Sea.

DR. SIEMERS: That means, therefore, that at that time you had no more than two dozen submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic; is that right?

DÖNITZ: That figure is too high. At that time we had not even 15 submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic. At the outbreak of war, as far as I remember, we went to sea with fifteen submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic.

DR. SIEMERS: During those few days when you were with Raeder at the maneuvers did you talk to him privately?

DÖNITZ: Yes. Grossadmiral Raeder told me—and he repeated this to the entire officers’ corps during his final speech in Swinemünde—that the Führer had informed him that under no circumstances must a war in the West develop, for that would be _Finis Germaniae_. I asked for leave and immediately after the maneuvers I went on leave on 24 July for a 6-weeks’ rest at Bad Gastein. I am merely stating that because it shows how we regarded the situation at that time.

DR. SIEMERS: But then the war came rather quickly, did it not, and you had to break off the leave which you had planned?

DÖNITZ: I was called back by telephone in the middle of August.

DR. SIEMERS: These words, that there would be no war with England, and the words, _Finis Germaniae_, did Raeder speak them during a private conversation or only in this speech at Swinemünde?

DÖNITZ: As far as the sense is concerned, yes. As far as the exact words are concerned, I cannot remember now what was said in the main speech and what was said before. At any rate he certainly said it during the main speech.

DR. SIEMERS: Thank you very much.

DR. LATERNSER: Admiral, on 30 January 1943 you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy and thereby a member of the group which is indicted here, the General Staff and the OKW?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. LATERNSER: I wanted to ask you whether, after you were appointed, you had discussions with any of the members of these groups regarding plans or aims as outlined in the Indictment?

DÖNITZ: No, with none of them.

DR. LATERNSER: After you came to office, you dismissed all the senior commanders in the Navy. What were the reasons for this?

DÖNITZ: Since I was between 7 and 10 years younger than the other commanders in the Navy, for instance, Admiral Carls, Admiral Boehm, and others, it was naturally difficult for both parties. They were released for those reasons and, I believe, in spite of mutual respect and esteem.

DR. LATERNSER: How many commanders in the Navy were involved in this case?

DÖNITZ: I think three or four.

DR. LATERNSER: Was there close personal and official contact between the Navy on the one hand, and the Army and Air Force on the other?

DÖNITZ: No, not at all.

DR. LATERNSER: Did you know most of the members of the indicted group?

DÖNITZ: No. Before my time as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I knew only those with whom I happened to find myself in the same area. For instance, when I was in France I knew Field Marshal Von Rundstedt. After I became Commander-in-Chief I knew only those whom I met by chance when I was at headquarters where they had to submit some army report at the large military situation conference.

DR. LATERNSER: Then you did not know most of the members of these groups?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Did those commanders who were known to you have a common political aim?

DÖNITZ: As far as the Army and the Air Force are concerned, I cannot say. As far as the Navy is concerned, the answer is “no.” We were soldiers, and I was interested in what the soldier could accomplish, what his personality was; and I did not concern myself in the main about a political line of thought, unless it affected his performance as a soldier.

I want to mention, as an example, the fact that my closest colleague who from 1934 until the very end in 1945 always accompanied me as my adjutant and later as Chief of Staff, was extremely critical of National Socialism—to put it mildly—without our official collaboration or my personal attitude toward him being affected thereby, as this long period of working together shows.

DR. LATERNSER: May I inquire the name of this Chief of Staff to whom you have just referred?

DÖNITZ: Admiral Godt.

DR. LATERNSER: Admiral Godt. Do you know of any remarks made by Hitler regarding the attitude of the generals of the Army? The question refers only to those who belong to the indicted group.

DÖNITZ: At the discussions of the military situation, I naturally heard a hasty remark now and then about some army commander, but I cannot say today why it was made or to whom it referred.

DR. LATERNSER: You were quite often present during the situation conferences at the Führer’s headquarters. Did you notice on such occasions that commanders-in-chief put forward in Hitler’s presence views strikingly different from his?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that certainly happened.

DR. LATERNSER: Can you remember any particular instance?

DÖNITZ: I remember that when the question of falling back in the northern sector in the East was discussed, the army commander of this sector of the front was not of the same opinion as the Führer, and that this led to an argument.

DR. LATERNSER: Was that commander successful with his objections?

DÖNITZ: I think so, partly; but I should like you to ask an army officer about that because naturally I do not know these details so clearly and authentically.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the high military leaders of the Navy have anything to do with the Einsatzgruppen of the SD?

DÖNITZ: The Navy, no. As far as the Army is concerned, I do not believe so and I assume they did not. But please do not ask me about anything but the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Yes. This question referred only to the Navy. And now, some questions about regional Navy commanders. Did the commanders of the regional Navy Group Commands—Marine-Gruppenkommando—have extensive territorial authority?

DÖNITZ: No. According to the famous KG-40, that is War Organization 1940, the Navy had no territorial powers ashore. Its task ashore was to defend the coast under the command of the Army and according to sectors, that is, under the command of the divisions stationed in that particular sector. Apart from that they took part in battle in coastal waters.

DR. LATERNSER: So that regional commanders in the Navy were therefore simply troop commanders?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the commanders of these regional Navy Group Commands have any influence on the formulation of orders regarding submarine warfare?

DÖNITZ: No, none whatever.

DR. LATERNSER: Did they influence decisions regarding what ships were to be sunk?

DÖNITZ: No, not at all.

DR. LATERNSER: And did they influence orders regarding the treatment of shipwrecked personnel?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Now the holder of the office Chief of Naval Operations Staff also belongs to this group. What were the tasks of a Chief of Naval Operations Staff?

DÖNITZ: That was a high command, the office which worked out the purely military, tactical, and operational matters of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the Chief of Naval Operations Staff have powers to issue orders?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Then his position was similar to that of Chief of General Staff of the Air Force or of the Army?

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon, I must first get the idea clear.

I assume that by “Chief of Naval Operations Staff” you mean the Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff? In Grossadmiral Raeder’s time the name “Chief of Naval Operations Staff” was the same as “Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.” The position about which you are asking was called “Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff” while I was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy; the name “Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff” was changed to “Chief of Naval Operations Staff,” but it was the same person and he was under the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Was there in the Navy a staff of Admirals corresponding to the Army General Staff?

DÖNITZ: No, that did not exist. Such an institution did not exist. The necessary consultants, “Führungsgehilfen,” as we called them, came from the front, served on the staff and then returned to the front.

DR. LATERNSER: Now I shall ask one last question. The witness Gisevius has stated in this courtroom that the highest military leaders had drifted into corruption by accepting gifts. Did you yourself receive a gift of any kind?

DÖNITZ: Apart from the salary to which I was entitled, I did not receive a penny; I received no gifts. And the same applies to all the officers of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

DR. NELTE: Witness, you were present when the witness Gisevius was being examined here. That witness, without giving concrete facts, passed judgment in the following manner: “Keitel had one of the most influential positions in the Third Reich.” And at another point he said, “I received very exact information regarding the tremendous influence, which Keitel had on everything relating to the Army and accordingly also on those who represented the Army to the German people.”

Will you, who can judge these matters, tell me whether that judgment of Defendant Keitel’s position, his function, is correct?

DÖNITZ: I consider it very much exaggerated. I think that Field Marshal Keitel’s position has been described here so unequivocally that it ought to be clear by now that what is contained in these words is not at all correct.

DR. NELTE: Am I to gather from this that you confirm as correct the description of the position and functions as given by Reich Marshal Göring and Field Marshal Keitel himself?

DÖNITZ: Yes, it is perfectly correct.

DR. NELTE: The witness Gisevius judged these matters, not on the basis of his own knowledge, but on the basis of information received from Admiral Canaris. Did you know Admiral Canaris?

DÖNITZ: I know Admiral Canaris from the time when he was still a member of the Navy.

DR. NELTE: Later on, when he was Chief of the Intelligence Service for foreign countries in the OKW, did you not have discussions with him? Did he not come to see you in his capacity as Chief of the Intelligence Service?

DÖNITZ: After I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, he visited me and he made a report about information matters which he thought he could place at the disposal of the Navy, my sphere of interest. But that was his last report to me. After that, of course, I received from him or his department written information reports which concerned the Navy.

DR. NELTE: Is it right for me to say that the position of Admiral Canaris as Chief of Intelligence, that is, espionage, counterespionage, sabotage, and intelligence, was of great importance for the entire conduct of the war?

DÖNITZ: His office or his department?

DR. NELTE: He was the chief of the whole department, was he not?

DÖNITZ: Of course, he worked for the entire Armed Forces, all three branches of the Armed Forces; and I must say in that connection, if you ask me about the importance, that I was of the opinion that the information which we received from him and which interested the Navy was very meager indeed.

DR. NELTE: Did Canaris ever complain to you that Field Marshal Keitel at the OKW in any way obstructed and hampered him in carrying out his activity and that he could not pass on his intelligence and his reports?

DÖNITZ: He never did that and, of course, he could have done so only during the first report. No, he never did that.

DR. NELTE: With reference to Canaris I should like to know whether you can tell me anything about his character and consequently about his credibility as a source of information; whether you consider him reliable?

DÖNITZ: Admiral Canaris, while he was in the Navy, was an officer in whom not much confidence was shown. He was a man quite different from us—we used to say he had seven souls in his breast.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, we don’t want to know about Admiral Canaris when he was in the Navy. I don’t think there is any use telling us that Admiral Canaris was in the Navy. The only possible relevance would be his character afterwards when he was head of the intelligence.

DR. NELTE: Mr. President, do you not think that, if someone is unreliable and not credible as a commodore, he might also be so as an Admiral in the OKW? Do you think that that could have changed during these years?

[_Turning to the defendant._] But, nevertheless, I thank you for the answer to this question and I now ask you to answer the following question. Is it true that Hitler forbade all branches of the Armed Forces to make reports on any political matters and that he demanded that they confine themselves to their own sphere of work?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is true.

DR. NELTE: Witness Gisevius has stated that Field Marshal Keitel threatened the officers under his command that he would hand them over to the Gestapo if they concerned themselves with political matters, and I ask you: Is it true that, according to the regulations applying to the Armed Forces, the Police—including the Gestapo, the SD, and the Criminal Police—had no jurisdiction at all over members of the Armed Forces, no matter what their rank was?

DÖNITZ: That is correct.

DR. NELTE: And is it also correct that the branches of the Armed Forces and also the OKW were at great pains to preserve this prerogative as far as the Police were concerned?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is true.

DR. NELTE: So that any alleged threat, as mentioned by Gisevius, namely, the handing over of these people to the Gestapo, could not have been carried out?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: And it is correct for me to say that all officers of the OKW to whom such a statement might have been made naturally knew that, too?

DÖNITZ: Naturally. A soldier was subject to military jurisdiction, and nobody could interfere with the Armed Forces.

DR. NELTE: Moreover, did Field Marshal Keitel, as Chief of the OKW, have any right to deal with officers serving in the OKW without the knowledge and consent of the Commander-in-Chief of the branch of the Armed Forces to which the officer belonged? Could he promote such an officer, dismiss him, or anything like that?

DÖNITZ: An officer in a branch of the Armed Forces—for instance the Navy—was detailed to the OKW for a definite office and thus was sent by the Navy to the OKW. If this officer was to be given a different office in the OKW, then the branch of the Armed Forces to which he belonged would of course have to be consulted.

DR. NELTE: Is it not correct to say that these officers were still on the roster of their own branch of the Armed Forces, since the OKW was not a branch of the Armed Forces and was not a formation; in other words, if there was a promotion, for instance, it would be ordered by the Navy? If Canaris was to have been promoted, you, as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, would have had to order this promotion, assuming, of course, that you were in agreement with this proposal? It was merely a question of the actual command and of personnel?

DÖNITZ: These officers were detailed to the OKW. As far as I can recollect, they were still on the Navy roster under the heading, “Detailed from the Navy to the OKW.”

DR. NELTE: But they did not leave the Navy as a branch of the Armed Forces, did they?

DÖNITZ: Promotion of such officers, I think, was decided by the Personnel Office of the Navy in agreement with the OKW, and I think also that no one could be detailed—I consider this self-evident—without agreement of the branch of the Armed Forces concerned.

DR. NELTE: Witness Gisevius has stated that certain men, among them Field Marshal Keitel for military matters, had formed a close ring of silence around Hitler so that nobody they did not want to let through could approach him. I ask you, was it possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep you, as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, away from Hitler, if you wanted to make a report to him?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: In the same way, was it possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force away, if the latter wanted to report to the Führer?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: And how was it with the Commander-in-Chief of the Army?

DÖNITZ: I know nothing about that. When I was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, there was no such position.

DR. NELTE: Then how was it with the Chief of General Staff of the Army? Could he at any time report to the Führer without going by way of Field Marshal Keitel?

DÖNITZ: It was not possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep anyone away, and he would never have done so anyway.

DR. NELTE: In reply to a question of the Prosecution, witness Gisevius stated in this courtroom that his group forwarded reports to Field Marshal Keitel, by way of Admiral Canaris, which dealt with the crimes against humanity which have been adduced here by the Prosecution. These reports had been camouflaged as “foreign reports.”

I ask you, was a camouflaged “foreign report” of this sort ever submitted to you or sent to you by Canaris?

DÖNITZ: No, never.

DR. NELTE: From your knowledge of Keitel’s personality, do you consider it possible that he would have withheld from the Führer an important report which was submitted to him?

DÖNITZ: I consider that absolutely out of the question.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t think that is a proper question for you to put.

DR. NELTE: With this question I wanted to end my inquiries on this point; but I still have one other question, which can be quickly dealt with.

Mr. President, in your communication of 26 March 1946, you gave me permission to submit an affidavit from Admiral Dönitz concerning the function and the position of the Chief of the OKW. I received this affidavit and handed it over to the Prosecution on 13 April for examination, and I understand that there are no objections to this affidavit. I have, however, not yet got back the original, which was handed over on 13 April, and I do not know whether it has in the meantime been submitted to the Tribunal by the Prosecution or not.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t know anything about the affidavit that you are dealing with.

DR. NELTE: I shall therefore be forced to put questions to Admiral Dönitz, which in large part are the same questions which I have already put to Field Marshal Keitel himself.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution object to the affidavit at all?

DR. NELTE: No, they did not raise any objections. Therefore, if it had been returned I would have submitted it as an exhibit, without reading it.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. NELTE: Thank you.

DR. DIX: Witness, you have stated that the SD and the Gestapo, in fact, the whole Police had no jurisdiction over members of the Armed Forces—for instance, they could not arrest members of the Armed Forces. Did I understand you correctly?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. DIX: Do you know, Witness, that all the officers, or in any case most of them, who were suspected of being involved in the affair of 20 July, were arrested by members of the SD and sent for questioning by the SD and the SD office, where they were arrested, to prisons under the SD and there held under SD guard and not under any military guard?

DÖNITZ: No, I don’t know that, because after 20 July, as far as I can remember, an order was issued specifically stating that the SD were to give to branches of the Armed Forces the names of those soldiers who had participated in the Putsch and that these soldiers were then to be dismissed from the branches of the Armed Forces, particularly to keep the principle of noninterference in the branches of the Armed Forces from being violated, and that then the SD would have the right to take action.

DR. DIX: That order did come out, but perhaps we can come to an explanation of this order if you answer further questions which I want to put to you.

Do you know, Witness, that the examination, the interrogation of those officers arrested in connection with 20 July, was carried out exclusively by officials of the SD or the Gestapo and not by officers, that is, members of military courts?

DÖNITZ: I can only judge as to the two cases which I had in the Navy. I received information that these two officers had participated. I had questions put to them, and they confirmed it. Thereupon these officers were dismissed from the Navy. After that the interrogation was, of course, not carried out by the Navy; but I know that my Navy court judges still concerned themselves about the officers and the interrogation.

DR. DIX: Who dismissed these men?

DÖNITZ: The Navy.

DR. DIX: That is you.

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. DIX: Do you know, Witness, that following upon the investigation regarding 20 July a committee of generals was formed under the chairmanship of Field Marshal Von Rundstedt?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I heard about that.

DR. DIX: And that this committee, on the basis of the records of the SD, decided whether the officer in question was to be dismissed from the Army or would have to leave the Army, so that he could be turned over to the civil court, namely, the People’s Court?

DÖNITZ: That is not known to me.

DR. DIX: May I put it to you that I am of the opinion that the order which you have described correctly...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Dix, you are bound by his answer. He said he didn’t know anything about it. You can’t then put to him what you say happened. If he says he doesn’t know anything about it, you must accept his answer.

DR. DIX: I just wanted to put to him that the order to which I referred earlier, which actually exists and which deals with the decision of whether a person is to be dismissed from the Army and surrendered to the civil authorities, has to do with this committee presided over by Field Marshal Von Rundstedt, which had to decide whether the officer in question was to be dismissed and thereby turned over, not to a military court, but to the People’s Court.

THE PRESIDENT: I understood the witness to say he didn’t know anything about it. I think you are bound by that answer.

DR. DIX: May I add something?

THE PRESIDENT: Who are you offering these questions for? You are counsel for the Defendant Schacht.

DR. DIX: My colleague’s questions concerning Keitel were put to challenge the credibility of the witness Gisevius. Schacht’s defense is naturally interested in the credibility of the witness Gisevius. The Defense has put three questions in connection with Gisevius’ credibility, therefore, concerning the case for Schacht. May I add something?

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. DIX: I ask the questions to which your Lordship is objecting only because I think it possible that the answer of the witness may have been based on a mistake, namely, that he confused the general regulation stating that the soldier concerned must be dismissed before the SD could lay hands on him with the order stating that Von Rundstedt’s committee would have to decide whether the officer in question was to be dismissed from the Army so that he could be handed over to the People’s Court, not to the SD. The SD merely carried out the investigation, the preliminary interrogation.

THE PRESIDENT: What is it you want to ask him now?

DR. DIX: Admiral, I think you have understood my question, or do you want me to repeat it?

DÖNITZ: I cannot tell you any more than I have already done.

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, as Commander of Submarines, you did once have some official contact with Sauckel?

DÖNITZ: No, not official but private.

DR. SERVATIUS: What was the occasion?

DÖNITZ: A submarine, which was to go into the Atlantic for 8 weeks, had reported to me that it had been discovered after leaving port that Gauleiter Sauckel had crept aboard. I immediately sent a radio message ordering the submarine to turn back and put him on the nearest outpost steamer.

DR. SERVATIUS: What was Sauckel’s motive?

DÖNITZ: No doubt a belligerent one. He wanted to go to sea again.

DR. SERVATIUS: But he was a Gauleiter. Did he not have particular reasons in order to show that he too was ready to fight in the war and did not want to remain behind?

DÖNITZ: It surprised me that he, as a Gauleiter, should want to go to sea; but, at any rate, I considered that here was a man who had his heart in the right place.

DR. SERVATIUS: You believe that his motives were idealistic?

DÖNITZ: Certainly. Nothing much can be got out of a submarine trip.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

DR. STEINBAUER: Admiral, do you remember that in your capacity as head of the State on 1 May 1945 you ordered the Reich Commissioner for the Occupied Netherlands to come to Flensburg to report to you?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. STEINBAUER: Do you also remember that on this occasion my client asked you to cancel the order originally sent to the Commander-in-Chief in the Netherlands to the effect that all locks and dykes should be blown up in the event of an attack, and to give the order that the mined blasting points be rendered harmless?

DÖNITZ: Yes, he did do that. It was in accordance with my own principles, for when I became head of the State I gave the order that all destruction in occupied territories, including for instance Czechoslovakia, should cease forthwith.

DR. STEINBAUER: At the end of his report, did he ask you for permission to return to his station in the Netherlands instead of remaining in Germany?

DÖNITZ: Yes, he did so repeatedly. He tried to get back—the weather situation was difficult—to the Netherlands by a motor torpedo boat.

DR. STEINBAUER: Thank you very much.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, I want you first of all to answer some questions on your record after becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Navy on 30 January 1943. As Commander-in-Chief of the Navy you had the equivalent rank of a Minister of the Reich; is that not so?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You had also the right to participate in meetings of the Reich Cabinet; had any such meetings taken place?

DÖNITZ: I was authorized to participate if such a meeting, or my participation in such a meeting, was ordered by the Führer. That is the wording of the order. But I must say that no meeting of the Reich Cabinet took place at the time I was Commander-in-Chief from 1943 on.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: From the time that you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the government of the Reich was in a sense carried on from Hitler’s headquarters; isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: That is correct.