Chapter VIII: Front Matter (8)

“Answer: ‘The struggle for power between Funk and Göring,
between Funk and the Ministry for Agriculture and the Ministry
of Communications.’

“Question: ‘How was the struggle finally resolved?’

“Answer: ‘Never. It was a struggle always continuing under the
surface.’”

Then we move on:

“Question: ‘Did Funk, who had very important powers as Minister
of Economics and later as Reichsbank President and as Chief
Plenipotentiary for Economy, actually exercise these powers?’

“Answer: ‘Yes. But the powers of Göring were stronger.’

“Question: ‘Nevertheless, Funk did exercise important powers?’

“Answer: ‘Yes, as President of the Reichsbank, Minister of
Economics, and Plenipotentiary for Economy.’”

Posse was your chief deputy, was he not?

FUNK: Yes, but Posse’s position was somewhat apart. My deputy was Landfried, and in the Reichsbank, Puhl. They knew these things better than Herr Posse.

MR. DODD: Well, all right.

FUNK: They should know more about it than Posse.

MR. DODD: You do not think he really knew what he was talking about when he said you were in the struggle for power? Is that your answer?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: [_Turning to the Tribunal._] That becomes Exhibit USA-843. We have not offered it up to now.

Now, Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about when you first heard of the impending attack on Russia. I understood you to tell the Tribunal that you heard about it some time—I think you said—in May. Is that right? Or June?

FUNK: When Rosenberg was appointed.

MR. DODD: Well, that is what we want to know. When Rosenberg, in April of 1941, was appointed, you knew then there was to be an attack on Russia, did you not? But this morning I do not think you made that clear. Is that not right, Dr. Funk?

FUNK: Yes, I said that the reason given us for that appointment was that the Führer considered a war with Russia to be possible.

MR. DODD: Yes, but you know what you told the Tribunal this morning. You said that Lammers sent you notice of Rosenberg’s appointment because of your interest in improving the trade relations with Russia. That is the answer you made this morning. Now, that was not so, was it?

FUNK: Yes, Lammers has said that here, too.

MR. DODD: I do not care what Lammers said. I am asking you now if it is not a fact that you were told by Lammers because you were to co-operate with Rosenberg in making ready for the occupation of those territories after the attack began. Now you can answer that very simply. Is that not true?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: Now, we will see. You know, on another occasion you have given another answer, by the way, I might say, parenthetically. Do you remember telling the interrogator that you first heard from Hess about the impending attack on Russia? Do you remember you gave that answer at one time as the source of your first knowledge? Do you remember telling us that?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: I’ll tell you about that in a minute. We will stay now on this Rosenberg business.

There is a Document Number 1031-PS and it is dated 28 May 1941, which would be a little more than a month after the Rosenberg appointment: “Top secret notes; meeting with Reich Minister Funk.” Do you know what you were talking about that day, about counterfeiting money for use in Russia and the Ukraine and the Caucasus? Do you remember it?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You do not remember it? Well, you had better take a look at the Document. It is Number 1031-PS, which becomes Exhibit USA-844. Do you not remember the day that your Reichsbank Director Wilhelm said it should not appear that you were counterfeiting so-called ruble bills for use in the occupied countries? Rosenberg was at that meeting. It is a very short memorandum. Have you read it? Oh, it is on Page 4, I think, of the document that you have; I am sorry. Do you find it? It starts out: “In the Ukraine and the Caucasus, however, it would become necessary to maintain the present currency, the ruble...” and so on. You were talking about money problems in the territory that you expected to occupy, and that was, well, about a month before the attack and about a month after Rosenberg’s appointment, was it not? Can you not give me an answer?

FUNK: I have not found the passage yet. Yes, if these countries were conquered, it was necessary to deal with these questions.

MR. DODD: The point is that certainly by that time you knew about the impending attack on the countries that had to be conquered, did you not?

FUNK: I knew nothing of an attack. I only knew of an imminent danger of war.

MR. DODD: Well, all right, you have it your way. The important thing is that you were talking about using money in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus, and it happened about a month later.

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: All right. There are quite a few questions I want to ask. I would like to close this examination before the adjournment time is due. Do you have anything you want to say to that? I only offered to show you that you had knowledge about the impending attack. You knew that something was going to happen in the East. That is all I wanted to ask. I think you will agree with that, will you not?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: All right.

FUNK: Since the appointment of Rosenberg—and I explained that quite clearly this morning—I knew that a war with Russia was threatening.

MR. DODD: We are all in agreement. We do not need to go further. I understood you to say this morning that you did not know. That is all right. I misunderstood you then. I now understand you to say that you did know it.

FUNK: I said quite clearly this morning that I was informed that the Führer was expecting a war with Russia, but I am not sure about this document, as to who has written it.

MR. DODD: Well, I do not know either. I can simply tell you that it was captured, among other documents, from Rosenberg’s files. I cannot tell you anything more about it. I think we can talk about something else, if you will permit me. I really do not think there is any need to go on with it.

FUNK: Yes, but it is important insofar as these things about the ruble have been attributed to me.

MR. DODD: I will say it is, too.

FUNK: It says here that I said that the use of the Reichskreditkassenscheine and the determining of the rate of exchange involved considerable danger. In other words, I was very doubtful in regard to the proposals made in this respect.

MR. DODD: All right. I am glad to have your observations about it. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about when you took over the Reichsbank. Posse was your principal deputy in your Ministry of Economics, was he not?

FUNK: Landfried was my main deputy.

MR. DODD: And by the way, he was at the same meeting that we have just been talking about. Who was your principal assistant in the Reichsbank?

FUNK: Puhl.

MR. DODD: He was a holdover from the Schacht days, was he not?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: Did you induce him to remain? Did you ask him to remain?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You said that you selected your personnel. That is what you told the Tribunal this morning.

FUNK: No. Puhl remained and also Kretschmann and Wilhelm.

MR. DODD: I am not interested in going through your roster of personnel. I am only asking—and I will tell you the purpose. Puhl was a reliable banking man, was he not? He was well known in the international banking circles. He had been offered a position in the Chase Bank in New York at one time, did you know that?

FUNK: No, I did not know that.

MR. DODD: Well, it is true. In any event, he was quite a man, and he is a reliable man, is he not?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: You asked for him as a witness, did you not?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: And you wanted him to come here because you believe him and you know he...

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now, I want to talk a little bit about the gold in the Reichsbank. How much gold did you have on hand at the end of the year 1941, roughly? Do not give me a long story about it, because I am not too much interested. I am merely trying to find out if you were short on gold in 1941.

FUNK: The gold reserve which I took over amounted to about 500 million Reichsmark when I received the post of Schacht.

MR. DODD: Well, all right.

FUNK: It was increased in any substantial manner only by the Belgian gold, as far as I know.

MR. DODD: That is really—it is interesting to hear all about it, but I have another purpose in mind. From whence did you obtain gold after you took over? Where did you get any new gold reserves from?

FUNK: Only by changing foreign currency into gold, and then, after I took over the post, we got in addition the gold reserve of the Czech National Bank. But we mainly increased our reserve through the Belgian gold.

MR. DODD: All right. Now, of course, gold became very important to you as a matter of payment in foreign exchange. You had to pay off in gold along in 1942 and 1943, did you not? Is that so?

FUNK: It was very difficult to pay in gold.

MR. DODD: I know it was.

FUNK: Because the countries with which we still had business relations introduced gold embargoes. Sweden refused to accept gold at all. Only in Switzerland could we still do business through changing gold into foreign currency.

MR. DODD: I think you have established that you had to use gold as foreign exchange in 1942 and 1943 and that is all I wanted to know. When did you start to do business with the SS, Mr. Funk?

FUNK: Business with the SS? I have never done that.

MR. DODD: Yes, sir, business with the SS. Are you sure about that? I want you to take this very seriously. It is about the end of your examination, and it is very important to you. I ask you again, when did you start to do business with the SS?

FUNK: I never started business with the SS. I can only repeat what I said in the preliminary interrogation. Puhl one day informed me that a deposit had been received from the SS. First I assumed that it was a regular deposit, that is, a deposit which remained locked and which was of no further concern to us, but then Puhl told me later that these deposits of the SS should be used by the Reichsbank. I assumed they consisted of gold coins and foreign currency, but principally gold coins, which every German citizen had had to turn in as it was, and which were taken from inmates of concentration camps and turned over to the Reichsbank. Valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps did not go to the Reichsbank but, as we have several times heard here, to the Reich Minister of Finance, that is...

MR. DODD: Just a minute. Were you in the habit of having gold teeth deposited in the Reichsbank?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: But you did have it from the SS, did you not?

FUNK: I do not know.

MR. DODD: You do not know?

Well, now, if Your Honor please, we have a very brief film, and I think we can show it before we adjourn, and I would like to show it to the witness before I examine him further on this gold business in the Reichsbank. It is a picture that was taken by the Allied Forces when they entered the Reichsbank, and it will show gold teeth and bridges and so on in their vaults.

FUNK: I know nothing about it.

MR. DODD: I think perhaps before I show the film I would like—I think I can do it in the time; I do want to complete this this afternoon—to read you an affidavit from this man Puhl who, you told me a few minutes ago, was a credible, well-informed man and whom you called as a witness. This affidavit is dated 3 May 1946.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I protest against the reading of this affidavit by Herr Puhl. This affidavit most probably—I’m not sure—was taken here in Nuremberg. We do not know its contents. The Prosecution surprises us today with an affidavit of which we know nothing, and within ten minutes a dozen documents are thrown at us, of which the Prosecution asserts they are only short documents, whereas, for instance, one affidavit among them contains twelve pages, I believe. It is quite impossible for us, in the course of the extreme speed at which this examination is taking place, to follow these statements and these documents. Therefore I have to protest against the use of an affidavit of that kind at this moment.

MR. DODD: Well, this affidavit was taken at Baden-Baden, Germany, on the 3rd day of May. We have been trying for a long time to put this part of this case together, and we have finally succeeded. Certainly we did not turn it over to Dr. Sauter, because we wanted to use it for just the purposes that I am trying to put it to now. And it is an affidavit of his assistant Puhl, whom he called as a witness and from whom he expects to have an interrogatory. It has to do with a very important part in this case. I might say that if we are permitted to use it, certainly Dr. Sauter will have a chance to re-examine on it and he will have all night to study it if he would like to look it over.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, are you wanting to cross-examine the witness about this document?

MR. DODD: Yes, I want to read it to him and I want to ask him a couple of questions about it. I want him to know it because it is the basis for two or three questions of cross-examination, and to impeach him for statements he has already made about the gold.

THE PRESIDENT: You may do that. But Dr. Sauter, of course, will be able, if he wishes to do so, to apply afterwards that the witness should be produced for cross-examination. And he will have time in which he can consider the affidavit and make any comments that he wants to about it.

MR. DODD: Very well, Your Honor.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I make just one statement? Today a case occurred where the Prosecution protested against the fact that a document was used of which the Prosecution had not previously received an English translation. The representative of the Prosecution told me he did not understand German, and therefore the document had to be translated. I am of the opinion that the Defense should get the same right as the Prosecution.

If one English document after the other is thrown at me without my having the slightest idea of the contents, then I cannot answer them. Difficulties are constantly increasing. For instance, I have received documents here which contain 12 pages. One sentence is read out of such a document. The defendant is not given time to read even one single further paragraph. I myself am not given time. And in spite of that it is expected that the defendant immediately explains one single sentence taken out of the context, without having the possibility of examining the document. That, in my opinion, is asking too much.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you had a translation in German of nearly every document, if not every document. And you have also been given every opportunity to consider documents when they have been translated into German. And that opportunity will be given to you hereafter and if there are any documents which are being used in cross-examination now which are not in German, they will be translated into German, and you will have them then. But once the witness is under cross-examination, the documents may be used. If you want to re-examine upon the documents after you have them in German, you will be able to do so.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we Defense Counsel also desire to further the proceedings and not to delay them. But it does not help me at all if, in a week or two, when I shall finally have been able to examine the documents thrown today on the table, I must turn to you, Mr. President, with the request to be permitted to question the witness again. We are glad once we are through with the examination of the witnesses. But we simply cannot follow Mr. Dodd’s method. I cannot follow, and the defendant cannot either. One cannot expect the defendant to explain an isolated sentence taken out of the context, if he had no chance to examine the document as a whole.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd.

MR. DODD: May I proceed to examine on the document?

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, have you got any objection to Dr. Sauter’s seeing the document?

MR. DODD: Yes, indeed I have. I think it would be a new rule. Ever since this Defense opened, we have presented and confronted documents for the purpose of impeaching the credibility of various witnesses, and used these documents, and it goes to the very foundation of cross-examination. If we have to turn such documents over to the Defense before we cross-examine, the whole purpose of cross-examination is gone.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, if you are putting the document in and putting it to the witness as a document, then his counsel is entitled, I should have thought, to have it at the same moment.

MR. DODD: We are perfectly willing to give him a German copy right now. It is here for him, if he wants to have it, and we were ready with it when we came in the courtroom.

THE PRESIDENT: In German?

MR. DODD: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: I think the best thing will be for us to adjourn now, and then you will hand to Dr. Sauter when you use the document a translation of it in German.

MR. DODD: Yes; tomorrow morning, when we use it.

THE PRESIDENT: When you use it.

MR. DODD: Very well, Sir.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 7 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED
AND TWENTY-THIRD DAY
Tuesday, 7 May 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Funk resumed the stand._]

MR. DODD: Witness, you had a conference with Dr. Sauter last night after we recessed Court, did you not, for about an hour?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now we were talking yesterday, when the Tribunal rose, about the gold deposits in the Reichsbank, and I had asked you when you started to do business with the SS, and as I recall, you said you did not do any business with the SS. And then we went along a little further and you did say that the SS did deposit some materials, some property belonging to people in concentration camps. Do I properly understand your testimony to have been, in substance, as I have stated it?

FUNK: No. I said that Herr Puhl—I do not remember in what year—told me one day that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS and he also told me—and he said it somewhat ironically—it would be better that we should not try to ascertain what this deposit was. As I said yesterday, it was impossible in any case to ascertain what was deposited. When something was deposited, the Reichsbank had no right to look into it to see of what it consisted. Only later, when Herr Puhl made another report to me, did I realize that when he used the word “deposit” it was a wrong term; it was not a deposit but it was a delivery of gold. There is of course a great difference. I personally assumed that it concerned a gold deposit, that this gold consisted of gold coins or other foreign currency or small bars of gold or something similar, which had been brought in from the inmates of the concentration camps—everybody in Germany had to hand these things over—and that it was being handed to the Reichsbank, which would use it. Since you mentioned this matter, I remember another fact of which I was not conscious until now. I was asked about it during my interrogation, and during this interrogation I could not say “yes” to it because at that time I did not remember it. I was asked during my interrogation whether I had the agreement of the Reichsführer that the gold which was delivered to the Reichsbank should be utilized by the Reichsbank. I said I did not remember. However, if Herr Puhl makes such a statement under oath, I will not and cannot dispute it. It is evident that if gold were delivered which should come to the Reichsbank, then the Reichsbank had the right to utilize such gold. I certainly never spoke more than twice or at most three times to Herr Puhl about this matter. What these deposits or these deliveries consisted of and what was done with these deliveries, how they were utilized, I do not know. Herr Puhl never informed me about that either.

MR. DODD: Well now, let us see. You were not ordinarily in the habit, in the Reichsbank, of accepting jewels, monocles, spectacles, watches, cigarette cases, pearls, diamonds, gold dentures, were you? You ordinarily accepted that sort of material for deposit in your bank?

FUNK: No; there could be no question, in my opinion, that the bank had no right to do that, because these things were supposed to be delivered to an entirely different place. If I am correctly informed about the legal position, these things were supposed to be delivered to the Reich Office for Precious Metals and not to the Reichsbank. Diamonds, jewels, and precious stones were not the concern of the Reichsbank because it was not a place of sale for these things. And in my opinion, if the Reichsbank did that, then it was unlawful.

MR. DODD: That is exactly right.

FUNK: If that happened, then the Reichsbank committed an illegal act. The Reichsbank was not authorized to do that.

MR. DODD: And is it your statement that if it was done you did not know anything about it?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You did not know?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You were frequently in the vaults of the Reichsbank, were you not? As a matter of fact you liked to take visitors through there. I say, you were frequently in the vaults of the bank yourself?

FUNK: Yes, I was, where the gold bars were kept.

MR. DODD: I will come to the gold bars in a minute. I just want to establish that you were in the vaults frequently, and your answer, as I understand it, is “yes” that you were?

FUNK: It was the usual thing if someone came to visit us, particularly foreign visitors, to show them the rooms where the gold was kept and we always showed them the gold bars and there was always the usual joke as to whether one could lift a gold bar or not. But I never saw anything else there except gold bars.

MR. DODD: How heavy were these gold bars that you had in the vaults?

FUNK: They were the usual gold bars which were used in commerce between banks. I think they varied in weight. I think the gold bars weighed about 20 kilograms. Of course, you can figure it out. If one...

MR. DODD: That is all right. That is satisfactory. When you were in the vaults you never saw any of these materials that I mentioned a few minutes ago—jewels, cigarette cases, watches, and all that business?

FUNK: Never. I was in the vaults at the most four or five times and then only to show this very interesting spectacle to visitors.

MR. DODD: Only four or five times from 1941 to 1945?

FUNK: I assume so. It was not more often. I only went down there with visitors, particularly foreign visitors.

MR. DODD: Are you telling the Tribunal that as head of the Reichsbank you never made an inspection, so to speak, of the vaults, never took a look at the collateral? Did you not ever make an inspection before you made your certifications as to what was on hand? Certainly every responsible banker does that regularly, does he not? What is your answer?

FUNK: No, never. The business of the Reichsbank was not conducted by the President. It was conducted by the Directorate. I never bothered about individual transactions, not even gold transactions, or even about slight variations in the individual gold reserves, _et cetera_. If large deliveries of gold were expected, the Directorate reported to me. The Directorate conducted the business, and I believe the detailed transactions were probably known only to the director responsible for that particular department.

MR. DODD: Now, did you ever do any business with pawnshops?

FUNK: With what?

MR. DODD: Pawnshops. Do you not know what a pawnshop is? There must be a German word for that.

FUNK: Pfandleihe.

MR. DODD: Whatever it is, you know what they are, do you not?

FUNK: Where you pawn something.

MR. DODD: Yes.

FUNK: No, I never did any...

MR. DODD: All right, we will get to that a little later too. Right now, since you do not seem to recall that you ever had any or saw any such materials as I have described in your vaults, I ask that we have an opportunity to show you a film which was taken of some materials in your vaults when the Allied Forces arrived there.

[_Turning to the President._] I would ask, Mr. President, that the defendant be permitted to come down, where he can watch the film, so that his memory will be properly refreshed.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may have him brought down.

[_Moving pictures were then shown._]

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, at some stage, I take it, you will offer evidence as to where that film was made.

MR. DODD: Yes, I will. There will be an affidavit as to the circumstances under which the film was made, who was present, and why; but, for the information of the Tribunal, it was taken in Frankfurt when the Allied Forces captured that city and went into the Reichsbank vaults.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, Witness, having seen these pictures of materials that were found in your Reichsbank vaults a year ago, or a little earlier than a year ago, you now recall that you did have such material on hand over a period of 4 or 5 years, 3 or 4 years, 3 years—I think actually a little longer than 3 years?

FUNK: I have never seen anything of this sort. I also have the impression that a large part of these things which were shown in the film came from deposits, because people, thousands of them, had locked deposits which they delivered to the Reichsbank, in which they put their jewels and other valuables, as we have just seen. Probably some were hidden valuables, which they should have given up, such as foreign money, foreign exchange, gold coins, _et cetera_. As far as I know we had thousands of closed deposits into which the Reichsbank could not look. I never saw a single item such as these shown in the film, and I cannot imagine where these things came from, to whom they belonged, and to what use they were put.

MR. DODD: Well, that is an interesting answer. I asked you yesterday, and I ask you again now, did you ever hear of anybody depositing his gold dentures in a bank for safekeeping? [_There was no response._]

You saw that film, and you saw the gold bridgework, or mouth-plates, did you not, and the other dental work? Certainly nobody ever deposited that with a bank. Is that not a fact?

FUNK: As far as the teeth are concerned, this is a special case. Where these teeth came from I do not know. It was not reported to me, nor do I know what was done with those teeth. I am convinced that items of this sort, when they were delivered to the Reichsbank, had to be turned over to the Office for Precious Metals, for the Reichsbank was not a place where gold was worked. Neither do I know whether the Reichsbank even had the technical facilities to work this metal. I do not know about that.

MR. DODD: And not only did people not deposit gold teeth, but they never deposited eyeglass rims, did they, such as you saw in the picture?

FUNK: That is right. These things are, of course, no regular deposits. That goes without saying.

MR. DODD: And you saw there were some objects that obviously were in the process of being melted down. Practically the last scene in that film showed something that looked as if it had been in the process of being melted, did it not? You saw it?

Well, will you answer me, please, “yes” or “no”? Did you see it?

FUNK: I cannot say that exactly. I do not know whether they were melting it down. I have no knowledge of these technical matters. To be sure, now I see quite clearly what was not known to me until now, that the Reichsbank did the technical work of melting down gold articles.

MR. DODD: Well, now, let us see what your assistant, Mr. Puhl, says about that, the man who you told us yesterday was a credible gentleman, and whom you asked the Tribunal to call as a witness on your behalf. I am holding in my hand an affidavit executed by him on the 3rd day of May 1946 at Baden-Baden, Germany.

“Emil Puhl, being duly sworn, deposes and says:

“1. My name is Emil Puhl. I was born on 28 August 1889 in
Berlin, Germany. I was appointed a member of the Board of
Directors of the Reichsbank in 1935 and Vice President of the
Reichsbank in 1939, and served in these positions continuously
until the surrender of Germany.

“2. In the summer of 1942 Walter Funk, President of the
Reichsbank and Reich Minister of Economics, had a conversation
with me and later with Mr. Friedrich Wilhelm, who was a member
of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank. Funk told me that
he had arranged with Reichsführer Himmler to have the Reichsbank
receive in safe custody gold and jewels for the SS. Funk
directed that I should work out the arrangements with Pohl, who,
as head of the economic section of the SS, administered the
economic side of the concentration camps.

“3. I asked Funk what the source was of the gold, jewels, bank
notes, and other articles to be delivered by the SS. Funk
replied that it was confiscated property from the Eastern
Occupied Territories, and that I should ask no further
questions. I protested against the Reichsbank handling this
material. Funk stated that we were to go ahead with the
arrangements for handling the material, and that we were to keep
the matter absolutely secret.

“4. I then made the necessary arrangements with one of the
responsible officials in charge of the cash and safes
departments for receiving the material, and reported the matter
to the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank at its next meeting.
On the same day Pohl, of the economic section of the SS,
telephoned me and asked if I had been advised of the matter. I
said I would not discuss it by telephone. He then came to see me
and reported that the SS had some jewelry for delivery to the
Reichsbank for safekeeping. I arranged with him for delivery and
from then on deliveries were made from time to time, from August
1942 throughout the following years.

“5. The material deposited by the SS included jewelry, watches,
eyeglass frames, dental gold, and other gold articles in great
abundance, taken by the SS from Jews, concentration camp
victims, and other persons. This was brought to our knowledge by
SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash
and who were helped in this by the Reichsbank personnel with
Funk’s approval and knowledge. In addition to jewels and gold
and other such items, the SS also delivered bank notes, foreign
currency, and securities to the Reichsbank to be handled by the
usual legal procedure established for such items. As far as the
jewelry and gold were concerned, Funk told me that Himmler and
Von Krosigk, the Reich Minister of Finance, had reached an
agreement according to which the gold and similar articles were
on deposit for the account of the State and that the proceeds
resulting from the sale thereof would be credited to the Reich
Treasury.

“6. From time to time, in the course of my duties, I visited the
vaults of the Reichsbank and observed what was in storage. Funk
also visited the vaults from time to time.

“7. The Golddiskontobank, at the direction of Funk, also
established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12
million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS
to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor
in factories run by the SS.

“I am conversant with the English language and declare that the
statements made herein are true to the best of my knowledge and
belief.”

Document Number 3944-PS; it is signed by Emil Puhl and duly witnessed.

Mr. President, I would like to offer this affidavit as Exhibit USA-846 and the film as Exhibit USA-845.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, Witness, having heard this affidavit from your close associate and your brother director of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank, and the man who, you admitted yesterday was a credible and truthful man, what do you now say to this Tribunal about your knowledge of what was going on between your bank and the SS?

FUNK: I declare that this affidavit by Herr Puhl is not true. I spoke to Herr Puhl about the entire matter of these gold deposits, as I have repeatedly stated, three times at most, but I believe it was only twice. I never exchanged a word with Herr Puhl regarding precious stones and jewelry. It is incredible to me that a man who most certainly also carried out certain functions in his agreements with the SS—that is, with Herr Pohl—now tries to put the blame on me. On no account will I take this responsibility and I request that Herr Puhl be called here, and that in my presence he may declare in all detail when, where, and how he has spoken to me about these different items, and to what extent I told him what to do.

I repeat my statement that I knew nothing about jewelry and other deliveries from concentration camps, and that I have never spoken to Herr Puhl about these things. I can only say again what I said at the beginning, that Herr Puhl once told me that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS. I remember it now, it had escaped me as I did not pay too much attention to the entire matter. I remember that, urged by him, I spoke to the Reichsführer about whether the Reichsbank could utilize these items. The Reichsführer said, “Yes.” But at no time did I speak to the Reichsführer about jewelry and precious stones and watches and such things. I spoke only of gold.

Concerning what Puhl states about a financing scheme—I believe that goes back a number of years—I know Herr Puhl came to me one day and said that he was asked to give a credit for certain factories of the SS and somebody was negotiating with him about the matter. I asked him, “Is this credit secure? Do we get interest?” He said, “Yes, up till now they have had a credit from the Dresdner Bank and it must now be repaid.” I said, “Very well, do that.” After that I never heard anything more about this matter. It is news to me that this credit was so large, that it was made by the Golddiskontobank. I do not remember it, but it is entirely possible. However, I never heard any more about this credit, which Herr Puhl had given to certain factories. He always spoke about factories, about businesses; it was a bank credit which had previously been given by a private bank. I remember I asked him once, “Has this credit been repaid?” That was some considerable time later. He said, “No, it has not been repaid yet.” That is all I know about these matters.

MR. DODD: All right. Now, what do you know about this—one part of the affidavit you have not covered—what do you know about the last part that says you established a revolving fund for the SS for the building of factories near the concentration camps? Do you remember that? I read it to you. Puhl says, “The Reichsbank, at the direction of Funk, established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories run by the SS.” Do you admit that you did that?

FUNK: Yes, that is what I just mentioned; that Herr Puhl told me one day, I believe in 1939 or 1940, that some gentlemen from the economic section of the SS had spoken to him regarding a credit, which until that time had been granted by the Dresdner Bank and which they would now like to have from the Reichsbank. I asked Herr Puhl, “Will we get interest; is the credit secure?” He said, “Yes.” So I said, “Give them this credit,” and later on I said just what I mentioned above. That is all I know about the matter. I know nothing more.

MR. DODD: Now, you also got a fee for handling these materials that you saw in the film, did you not, from the SS? The bank was paid for carrying on its part of this program?

FUNK: I did not understand that.

MR. DODD: I say, is it not a fact that you received payment from the SS over this period of more than 3 years for handling these materials which they turned over to you?

FUNK: I do not know about that.

MR. DODD: Well, you would know, would you not, as President of the bank, if you did receive payment? How could you help knowing?

FUNK: These were probably such small payments that no one ever reported them to me. I do not know anything about any payment from the SS.

MR. DODD: What would you say if I tell you that Herr Puhl said that the bank did receive payment during these years, and that there were altogether some 77 shipments of materials such as you saw here this morning? Do you say that is untrue, or do you agree with it?

FUNK: That might be quite true, but I was never informed about these things. I know nothing about it.

MR. DODD: Is it conceivable that you, as President of the Reichsbank, could not know about 77 such shipments and about a transaction that you were being paid to handle? Do you think that is a likely story?

FUNK: If the Board of Directors did not report to me about these things, I cannot have known about them, and I declare again quite definitely that I was not informed about these details. On one occasion I was told about a gold deposit of the SS which was brought to us. Later on it transpired that it was a delivery from the SS. And then I knew about this credit transaction. That is all I know about these matters.

MR. DODD: Now, let me tell you something that may help you a little bit. As a matter of fact, your bank sent memoranda to people concerning this material from time to time, and I think you know about it, do you not? You made up memoranda stating what you had on hand and whom you were transferring it to. Are you familiar with any such memoranda?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: Well, then you had better take a look at Document Number 3948-PS, Exhibit USA-847, and see if it refreshes your memory. That is 3948-PS.

[_The document was handed to the defendant._]

Now, this document is a memorandum apparently addressed to the Municipal Pawn Brokerage in Berlin, and it is dated 15 September 1942. Now, I am not going to read all of it, although it is a very interesting document, but as you can see, the memorandum says, “We submit to you the following valuables with the request for the best possible utilization.” Then you list 247 platinum and silver rings, 154 gold watches, 207 earrings, 1,601 gold earrings, 13 brooches with stones—I am just skipping through; I am not reading all of them—324 silver wrist watches, 12 silver candle sticks, goblets, spoons, forks, and knives, and then, if you follow down here quite a way, diverse pieces of jewelry and watch casings, 187 pearls, four stones said to be diamonds. And that is signed “Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse” and the signature is illegible. Perhaps, if you look at the original, you might tell us who signed it.

FUNK: No, I do not know who signed it.

MR. DODD: You have the original?

FUNK: I do not know.

MR. DODD: Well, look at the signature there and see if you recognize it as the signature of one of your workers.

FUNK: It says—somebody from our cashier’s office signed it. I do not know the signature.

MR. DODD: Somebody from your bank, was it not?

FUNK: Yes, from the cashier’s department. I do not know the signature.

MR. DODD: Do you want this Tribunal to believe that employees and people in your bank were sending lists out to municipal pawn brokers without it ever coming to your attention?

FUNK: I know nothing at all about these events. They can only be explained in that things were apparently delivered to the Reichsbank which it was not supposed to keep. That is obvious.

MR. DODD: Well, I would also like you to look at Document Number 3949-PS, which is dated 4 days later, 19 September 1942, Exhibit USA-848. Now, you will see this is a memorandum concerning the conversion of notes, gold, silver, and jewelry in favor of the Reich Minister of Finance, and it also says that it is “a partial statement of valuables received by our precious metals department.” Again I think it is unnecessary to read it all. You can look at it and read it, but the last two paragraphs, after telling what the shipments contained as they arrived on 26 August 1942, say:

“Before we remit the total proceeds, to date 1,184,345.59
Reichsmark to the Reichshauptkasse for the account of the Reich
Minister of Finance, we beg to be informed under what reference
number this amount and subsequent proceeds should be
transferred.

“It might further be of advantage to call the attention of the
responsible office of the Reich Minister of Finance in good time
to the amounts to be transferred from the Deutsche Reichsbank.”

And again that is signed, “Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse,” and there is a stamp on there that says, “Paid by check, Berlin, 27 October 1942, Hauptkasse.”

FUNK: For this document, that is, this note to the Reich Minister of Finance, I believe I am able to give an explanation, and that is on the basis of testimony given here by witnesses who came from concentration camps. The witness Ohlendorf, if I remember correctly, and another one, have testified that the valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps had to be turned over and were delivered to the Reich Minister of Finance. Now, I assume that the technical procedure was that these things were first brought to the Reichsbank by mistake. The Reichsbank, however—and I keep repeating it—could do nothing with the pearls, jewelry, and similar items which are mentioned here, and therefore turned over these items to the Reich Minister of Finance or they were used for the account of the Reich Minister of Finance. That is apparent from this document. In other words, this merely is a statement of account sent by the Reichsbank for the Reich Minister of Finance. That is, I believe, the meaning of this document.

MR. DODD: Well, indeed, you did hear Ohlendorf say that these unfortunate people who were exterminated in these camps had their possessions turned over to the Reich Minister of Finance. I believe he testified to that effect here. Now, you also...

FUNK: That is what I heard here. These things were news to me. However, I did not know that the Reichsbank...

MR. DODD: You have told us that twice already.

FUNK: ...that the Reichsbank dealt with these matters in such detail.

MR. DODD: Are you telling us that you did not know they dealt with them in such detail, or that you did not know they dealt with them at all? I think that is important. What is your answer, that you did not know they went into them in such detail or that you did not know anything about it?

FUNK: I personally had nothing to do with it at all.

MR. DODD: Did you know about it?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You never heard of it?

FUNK: I did not know at all that any jewelry, watches, cigarette cases, and so forth were delivered to the Reichsbank; that is news to me.

MR. DODD: Did you know that anything came from concentration camps to the Reichsbank? Anything at all?

FUNK: Yes, the gold, of course. I already said that.

MR. DODD: Gold teeth?

FUNK: I have said that—no.

MR. DODD: What gold from the concentration camps?

FUNK: The gold about which Herr Puhl had reported to me, and I assumed that these were coins and other gold which had to be deposited at the Reichsbank anyway, and which the Reichsbank could utilize according to the legal regulations. Otherwise, I know nothing about it.

MR. DODD: Just what did Himmler say to you and what did you say to Himmler when you had this conversation, as you tell us, about this gold from the concentration camp victims? I think the Tribunal might be interested in that conversation. What did he say, and what did you say, and where was the conversation held?

FUNK: I do not remember any more where the conversation was held. I saw Himmler very rarely, perhaps once or twice. I assume that it was on the occasion of a visit in the field quarters of Lammers, where Himmler’s field quarters were also located. It must have been there. On that occasion we spoke very, very briefly about that.

MR. DODD: Wait just a minute. Will you also tell us when it was?

FUNK: Possibly during the year 1943; it might have been 1944, I do not remember.

MR. DODD: All right.

FUNK: I attached no importance whatsoever to this matter. In the course of the conversation I put the question, “There is a gold deposit from you, from the SS, which we have at the Reichsbank. The members of the board of directors have asked me whether the Reichsbank can utilize that.” And he said, “Yes.” I did not say a word about jewelry or things of that kind or gold teeth or anything of that sort. The entire conversation referred only very briefly to this thing.

MR. DODD: Do you mean to tell us that an arrangement was made with your bank independently of you and Himmler, but by somebody in the SS and somebody in your bank—that you were not the original person who arranged the matter?

FUNK: That is right. It was not I.

MR. DODD: Who in your bank made that arrangement?

FUNK: Possibly it was Herr Puhl or maybe somebody else from the Reichsbank Directorate who made the arrangement with one of the gentlemen of the economic section in the SS. And I was only informed of it by Herr Puhl very briefly.

MR. DODD: Did you know Herr Pohl, P-o-h-l, of the SS?

FUNK: I imagine it was he. Herr Pohl never spoke to me about it.

MR. DODD: You do not know the man?

FUNK: I must certainly have seen him at some time, but Herr Pohl never spoke to me about these matters. I never spoke to him.

MR. DODD: Where did you see him, in the bank?

FUNK: Yes, I saw him once in the bank when he spoke to Puhl and other gentlemen of the Reichsbank Directorate during a luncheon. I walked through the room and I saw him sitting there but I personally never spoke with Herr Pohl about these questions. This is all news to me, this entire matter.

MR. DODD: Well, do you recall the testimony of the witness Hoess in this courtroom not so long ago? You remember the man? He sat where you are sitting now. He said that he exterminated between 2½ and 3 million Jews and other people at Auschwitz. Now, before I ask you the next question I want you to recall that testimony and I will point something out for you about it that may help you. You recall that he said that Himmler sent for him in June 1941, and that Himmler told him that the final solution of the Jewish problem was at hand, and that he was to conduct these exterminations. Do you recall that he went back and looked over the facilities in one camp in Poland and found it was not big enough to kill the number of people involved and he had to construct gas chambers that would hold 2,000 people at a time, and so his extermination program could not have got under way until pretty late in 1941, and you observe that your assistant and credible friend Puhl says it was in 1942 that these shipments began to arrive from the SS?

FUNK: No, I know nothing about the date. I do not know when these things happened. I had nothing to do with them. It is all news to me that the Reichsbank was concerned with these things to this extent.

MR. DODD: Then I take it you want to stand on an absolute denial that at any time you had any knowledge of any kind about these transactions with the SS or their relationship to the victims of the concentration camps. After seeing this film, after hearing Puhl’s affidavit, you absolutely deny any knowledge at all?

FUNK: Only as far as I have mentioned it here.

MR. DODD: I understand that; there was some deposit of gold made once, but no more than that. That is your statement. Let me ask you something, Mr. Funk...

FUNK: Yes; that these things happened consistently is all news to me.

MR. DODD: All right. You know you did on one occasion at least, and possibly two, break down and weep when you were being interrogated, you recall, and you did say you were a guilty man; and you gave an explanation of that yesterday. You remember those tears. I am just asking you now; I am sure you do. I am just trying to establish the basis here for another question. You remember that happened?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: And you said, “I am a guilty man.” You told us yesterday it was because you were upset a little bit in the general situation. I am suggesting to you that is it not a fact that this matter that we have been talking about since yesterday has been on your conscience all the time and that was really what is on your mind, and it has been a shadow on you ever since you have been in custody? And is it not about time that you told the whole story?

FUNK: I cannot tell more to the Tribunal than I have already said, that is the truth. Let Herr Puhl be responsible before God for what he put in the affidavit; I am responsible for what I state here. It is absolutely clear that Herr Puhl is now trying to put the blame on me and to exculpate himself. If he has done these things for years with the SS, it is his guilt and his responsibility. I have only spoken to him two or three times about these things, that is, about the things I have mentioned here.

MR. DODD: You are trying to put the blame on Puhl, are you not?

FUNK: No. He is blaming me and I repudiate that.

MR. DODD: The trouble is, there was blood on this gold, was there not, and you knew this since 1942?

FUNK: I did not understand.