Chapter XII: Book 1: , Document 1, Page 1. I submit Document Book 1 as Exhibit Number

1.

Witness, you have been accused of having intrigued against Brüning in some way. Is that true?

VON PAPEN: In no way. I have already said that I had a very high opinion of Dr. Brüning personally, and that from the day when Herr Von Schleicher called me in—that is, 3 days before my appointment—I never had the slightest idea of being appointed Brüning’s successor.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did you previously talk to Hitler about the government to be formed by you?

VON PAPEN: No, that is a completely false imputation on the part of the Prosecution. The _History of the NSDAP_ by Volz, in which that is stated—and that is Document 3463-PS—is a purely private work and was probably sponsored by Goebbels and his Ministry. I state that my government, according to the wish of the Reich President, was to be created by a _fait accompli_, without any negotiations with any party or the head of any party.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: You did not promise Hitler the dissolution of the Reichstag beforehand either?

VON PAPEN: This statement of the Prosecution is also untrue. I did not previously discuss the dissolution of the Reichstag with Hitler for the Reichstag was dissolved on 4 June, and I saw Hitler for the first time in my life 5 or 6 days later. The dissolution of the Reichstag, as such, was a matter of course, because the new Government wished to have the opinion of the electors on the new course and on the Government’s program.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What were the political aims of your Cabinet? Please state this briefly.

VON PAPEN: The central problem which occupied us was the economic one: The big economic crisis, and the 1½ million unemployed young people, the 6 to 7 million completely unemployed, and the 12 to 13 million in part-time employment. Attempts of my predecessors to help with purely State means proved inadequate. They were a burden on finances and had no result. The aim of my Government, therefore, was to employ private economy to solve this problem. We wanted to bring the whole production machinery into working order again. With the investment of 2,200 million marks we wanted to put this process into operation and expected to return into the production process 1¾ million workers in the current year.

Such a program could not have been agreed upon with the parties. The political aim was to achieve, simultaneously with the reorganization of the economy, the practical co-operation of the strongest of the opposition parties, the NSDAP. That was the central problem of German internal policy. It had been shown, through National Socialist Government in Thuringia, in Brunswick, and in Oldenburg, that this attempt could be made without becoming exposed to the danger of revolutionary movements. I could hope, therefore, through a national and social program to find the approval of the Reichstag.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: For the Government’s statement, I refer to Document 1, Exhibit 1, Pages 2 and 3.

You spoke of the solution of the social problem as the main task of your Government. Will you please explain briefly how you regarded the problem and how you attempted to solve it?

VON PAPEN: In no country in the world, I believe, was the problem of capital and labor as acute as it was in Germany, as a result of overindustrialization and alienation of the soil. The reason is known; I need not speak of it. However, one of the reasons, which is generally overlooked, was the German inflation which had destroyed all mobile fortunes in Germany. This inflation had deprived the middle class and the workers, who form the backbone of the nation, of their savings and fortunes and it had proletarianized the workers, tradesmen, and the middle class.

Simultaneously with the social processes in Germany, a new social order had arisen in our great neighboring country, the order of a classless society and the totalitarian state. The democratic powers of the world resisted the exportation of this system. They took protective measures in the economic field, but these protective measures, the “New Deal,” and “Ottawa,” weakened the German position all the more.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, I think the defendant must realize that this is all very familiar ground to the Tribunal, and it is not necessary to restate it in detail.

VON PAPEN: I only wanted to explain to the Tribunal that this social problem was the basis for the whole historical development.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The question of the social problem is at the same time a question of the development of the NSDAP, and the witness is going to comment later from this point of view.

Witness, you said a little while ago that you had no contact with Hitler before the formation of the government. When did you see Hitler for the first time and what agreements did you reach?

VON PAPEN: I have already said that I saw Hitler for the first time on 9 or 10 June. The aim of the talk was to determine under what conditions Hitler would be willing to tolerate my Government. My program contained so many points in the social field that an approval of that program by the National Socialists was to be expected. Hitler’s condition for such an approval of the Government program was the lifting of the ban on uniforms for the SS; that is, the political equalization of his party with the other parties.

I agreed to that at that time; all the more so as the ban of the SS by the Brüning Government was an obvious injustice. The SS, or rather the SA, had been prohibited; but the uniformed formations of the Socialists and the Communists, that is, the “Rotfront” and the “Reichsbanner,” had not been prohibited.

The result of my promise to Hitler was that Hitler obligated himself to tolerate my Government.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to correct a mistake made by the witness. He spoke of the SS, meaning the SA. There was no SS at that time.

I refer to Document 1, Page 3, which is a statement of the President concerning the lifting of the ban against the SA. The President points out that he decreed the lifting of this ban under the express condition that there would be no more acts of violence in the future. He says furthermore that he was determined—that he would use all constitutional means at his disposal to act against all violations of any kind if this expectation were not fulfilled.

Will you, Witness, make a brief statement concerning your efforts, and the course of the Lausanne Conference in June 1932 which had such a great influence on the growth of the NSDAP?

VON PAPEN: I ask for permission to go somewhat more into detail about this conference, because the result was closely connected with the enormous increase of the NSDAP immediately thereafter. This conference had been prepared long beforehand, as is known. It was to abolish reparations.

But I went to Lausanne with many other aims and hopes. The abolition of reparations was, so to speak, a _cause jugée_. But what was necessary was to remove Germany’s moral discomfort, if Europe was to return peacefully to normalcy. This moral dissatisfaction had many causes. Germany had become a “second-rate nation.” It had been deprived of important attributes of its sovereignty: No military sovereignty; the Rhineland unprotected; the Corridor, the Saar, and others. I have already described the economic conditions. These economic and political difficulties helped advance political radicalism, and the extremists increased in every election.

If therefore help was to be forthcoming, then not merely the reparations question had to be solved—that was a negative help—but positive, moral aid was required. My program was the restoration of the sovereignty of the Reich. In the first place, the famous Article 231 of the Versailles Treaty was to be struck out. That was the article which stated Germany’s sole responsibility for the war. Historians of all countries had long established that we were not the only ones responsible. In the second place, relations with France based on confidence were to be established.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, the Tribunal do not think that this really is very important for them.

VON PAPEN: I shall briefly...

DR. KUBUSCHOK: May I explain quite generally that the events of 1932, the internal and foreign political events, formed the key for judging the growth of the NSDAP which, after all, led to the 30th of January 1933. If we discuss certain questions here, we will be able to refer to them when we discuss the events of 1933. I believe we will thus save time. Therefore, I ask that a discussion of this period be permitted in somewhat greater detail.

VON PAPEN: I will make it as brief as possible, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: I think we had better go on, as you suggest, from 1933. Is that not what you were suggesting, that you should go on to 1933, and then possibly comeback to 1932, if it is necessary?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: No, that is not what I suggested. I said that the discussion of conditions in 1932 provides the key for the growth of the NSDAP and the formation of the Hitler Government.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes; but the defendant has been discussing the conditions of 1932 for a long time now. Surely we can get on to something which has something to do with the National Socialist Party, now.

VON PAPEN: I will come to that immediately, Mr. President. I wanted only to say that I took up these subjects at Lausanne and tried to bring about understanding for the internal situation in Germany. I negotiated with the French Prime Minister, M. Herriot, about the cancellation of that famous article. I negotiated a consultation pact with him, but nothing came of all this, for reasons which I do not want to discuss any further. The final result of the conference of Lausanne at any rate was negative, so that the elections which were subsequently held...

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What was your point of view in the armament question?

VON PAPEN: I had established my point of view in the armament question, which played a role even in the year 1933, already at that time in Lausanne. I had discussed it with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Macdonald, and M. Herriot. Later, in an interview, I discussed this point of view with M. Herriot, so that it is on record. It is Document 55. In this document I said that it was not a question of German rearmament, but a question of the fulfillment of the disarmament promise of the other nations. Nothing is said about German rearmament, but only about German equality and equal treatment for Germany.

I need not quote this document. It is in the hands of the Court, Document 55.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I submit Document 55 as Exhibit 55, and further refer to Document 1, which has already been submitted, Page 9; and Document 6, which I submitted as Exhibit 3, Page 22.

VON PAPEN: At the conclusion of the Lausanne Conference, I told Macdonald and Herriot, “You must provide me with a foreign political success, for my Government is the last bourgeois government in Germany. After me there will be only extremists of the Right and the Left.” But they did not believe me, and I returned from Lausanne with only partial success.

THE PRESIDENT: I think this would be a good time to break off.

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Witness, you said that the outcome of the Lausanne Conference did not come up to your expectations. Why did you, in spite of that, sign the Treaty of Lausanne?

VON PAPEN: In the first place, I had to sign it because otherwise the conference would have ended in a complete failure and Germany would have been confronted with an economic vacuum. We were faced also with the Reichstag election and I had to try to make the best of the situation.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In connection with this question, I should like to submit Document Number 7, to become Exhibit Number Papen-4. This document is a statement by Von Papen, in the _Trierische Landeszeitung_ of 12 July 1932, about Lausanne. I take the liberty of reading a short extract in which Papen says:

“But just as little as we are unable to erase by a one-sided act
the signatures given since 1918 by former governments, just as
little was this possible with regard to the solemn obligations
which were undertaken by the then governing parties in the name
of the German people. The present Government simply had to
liquidate a situation which had been created by all the former
governments since the signing of the Versailles Treaty. The
question as to whether this situation can be liquidated by
Germany’s denying the validity of her signature and thus, at the
same time, placing herself outside the conception of cultural
and other standards, must be answered with an emphatic ‘no.’”

In mentioning this quotation, I should like to point out that this attitude under the then prevailing situation and especially in view of the propaganda by the NSDAP is especially noteworthy.

On 18 July 1932 the Reich Minister of the Interior decreed a general ban on demonstrations after, as you have already said, the ban on uniforms had been lifted for National Socialists on 16 June. What were the reasons for the new ban on demonstrations?

VON PAPEN: The condition under which Hindenburg had rescinded the ban on uniforms for the SA was not fulfilled. Election campaigns became more and more radical and therefore I decided to suggest to the Reich President a decree prohibiting demonstrations. Contrary to the decree banning the uniforms, this decree applied to all parties equally. Therefore it did not only prohibit the SA, but all fighting formations of the other parties.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now I shall turn to the 20th of July 1932. The Prosecution calls your action on that date a _coup d’état_. The witness Severing has also fully elaborated on that point. What was the reason for your action on the 20th of July 1932?

VON PAPEN: The action was based on the necessity of restoring orderly conditions. I had received reports about the co-operation of the police department of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior with the Communists. The situation of the Reich Government in Berlin must in this case be specifically taken into consideration, and I do not know whether the High Tribunal is cognizant of the legal position. The Reich Government at Berlin was not an extraterritorial area like Washington, D. C., in the United States, but came within the police power of the Prussian State. My own protection, that is, the protection of the Reich Chancellor, lay in the hands of the Prussian police. If, therefore, combinations with the Communists were made in the Prussian Police Ministry, then this affected the security of the Reich Government. This action against the Prussian Government did by no means constitute an action against Socialism as such. Neither did a Nazification of the republican police take place, as the witness Severing testified here. The officials, with the exception of a few higher officials, remained completely unchanged. How I regarded the situation there, I made known to the German people in a radio speech on the evening of the 20th of July. The High Tribunal will find this speech in Document 1, Page 4. However, I shall forego the reading of this speech.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should further like to point to Document 2, which I wish to submit as Exhibit Number 5. I should like to point out, on Page 15, the part where the Defendant Von Papen gives his account about the necessity of this measure.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Was this action of yours on the 20th of July brought before the highest German tribunal, the Reich Supreme Court, and was any decision made?

VON PAPEN: Yes. The Prussian Cabinet brought an action against the Reich Government before the Reich Supreme Court at Leipzig; there the matter was properly argued and judgment passed. This sentence upheld entirely the action of the Reich President. It is therefore impossible for the Prosecution to characterize this matter as a Putsch.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to call your attention to Document 8, which I wish to submit as Exhibit Number 6. This is an extract—I beg your pardon?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, is it necessary for you to give the document exhibits numbers different from the document numbers? You see, it becomes a little bit confusing. Each one of these documents has got, at the head of the document, a number; 1, 2, 3, and so forth, and they follow each other...

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to acquiesce to the suggestion of the High Tribunal and retain the same number. Therefore, Document 5 shall become Exhibit Number 5.

THE PRESIDENT: That would be much less confusing, I think, if you could.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes, indeed, My Lord. This Exhibit Number 5 is an extract from the judgment of the Reich Supreme Court, dated 25 October 1932. On Page 19, at the beginning, is the opinion which says that the decree of the Reich President of 20 July 1932 was entirely legal.

How did the Prussian Government, and specifically Prime Minister Braun, react to this judgment of the Supreme Court?

VON PAPEN: The Prussian Government and the Prussian Prime Minister absolutely accepted the judgment, which became apparent from the discussions which I personally had later on in October with the Prussian Prime Minister.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Regarding the position taken by the Prussian Government, I should like to submit Document Number 86, which is contained in Volume III of my document book, which, however, because of technical difficulties, is not completely translated and cannot be submitted today.

Witness, on 29 July 1932 you had an interview with a United Press correspondent and you stated in detail your position on the armament problem. Since this topic is of special significance for your case and your defense, I should like to have you comment on this matter.

VON PAPEN: I should like to clarify my attitude on the armament question, for it is the same which I held at the time when I was Vice Chancellor in the Government of Hitler. I should like to refer to Document 1, which sets forth my interview for the United Press, and I will quote from Document Number 86, which is the radio speech which I made on 12 September. On that occasion I said:

“We want disarmament....”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Perhaps, Witness, you could just give us the contents in a few words.

VON PAPEN: If the Tribunal would like to check on the contents of my speech, in Document 86 the Tribunal will find that I was speaking for disarmament and for peace. On that occasion I appealed to the major powers, and I would like to quote this sentence:

“In these days Germany is undertaking a gigantic attempt,
through the mobilization of her last internal reserves, to bring
about work and social peace. That gives us a right to expect
that the leading statesmen of the major powers, now, for their
part, will decide to bring to an end the poisoning of foreign
political relations through agreements which cannot be kept.”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On 31 July 1932 the Reichstag election took place. First of all, I should like to submit a diagram in which the election results of the various elections held in the years 1930 to 1933 are tabulated. This is Exhibit Number 98, which I hereby submit. From the figures shown there we can see the internal political development of Germany.

Witness, what was the result, and what were the political conclusions you drew from the result of the elections?

VON PAPEN: On 30 July, the eve of the elections, I spoke to the United States and I said:

“The world does not realize that Germany is confronted with a
civil war. The world did not help us to overcome our
difficulties at Lausanne, and it is unbearable that 14 years
after the end of the war there is no equality of rights for us.”

The election of 31 July brought more than a doubling of the Nazi votes, from 6.4 million to 13.7 million votes, or 230 members of the Reichstag as against 110. The conclusions to be drawn from the results of this election were that no majority could be formed, from the extreme right to the Social Democrats, without the NSDAP. With that, the Party had achieved a parliamentary key position. The Prosecution is trying to ascribe the increase of the Nazi vote to the lifting of the ban on uniforms. That is an explanation which is altogether too simple. Actually, the ban on uniforms was lifted from 16 June till 18 July, for 1 month. And already 2 weeks prior to the election I had issued a decree prohibiting demonstrations. The real reason for the increase in the Nazi votes was the desperate economic situation of Germany and the fact of the general disappointment about the lack of foreign political successes at Lausanne.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now, what was your conclusion from the results of this election?

VON PAPEN: The conclusion I drew was the same opinion which I had held before. On the next day I gave an interview to the Associated Press, and through this interview I told the entire world:

“The National Socialists have to be given responsibility, and
when that has been done we have to bring about a reform of the
Constitution.”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Regarding these historical facts I refer to Exhibit Number 1 which has already been submitted, and especially to Pages 4, 5, and 6.

Witness, please tell the Tribunal briefly about your negotiations with Hitler.

VON PAPEN: As a result of this opinion of mine I had a long discussion with Hitler on 12 August. I impressed upon him the necessity of his participation, and my own readiness to resign as Chancellor in a few months if the co-operation should prove successful, and after Von Hindenburg had gained confidence in Hitler.

Of the political parties, the rightist parties, as is well known, had supported my Cabinet. The Center Party was in opposition. Now, after these elections, the Center Party wanted Hitler as Chancellor, but Hitler himself did not want to become the head of a majority government.

The correctness of my statements is shown in Document 1, Page 6, the first paragraph, last line. I quote:

“Kaas, the leader of the Center Party, demands a so-called total
solution of this crisis by the full responsible participation of
the former opposition in the Reich Government.”

I made an offer to Hitler that he should enter my Cabinet as Vice Chancellor. Hitler declined. On the next day we continued with our negotiations in the presence of the Reich President.

Hitler voiced the demand to the Reich President to join the Government with his Movement, but only on condition that he himself be appointed Chancellor. And this may be seen in this document on Page 6.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: It is Document Number 1, Page 6, Your Honor.

VON PAPEN: The Reich President did not believe that he should transfer complete authority to Hitler and rejected his proposal. At this point our efforts of drawing National Socialism into a responsible government activity had failed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The Defendant Von Papen voiced his opinions about this in a speech at Munich, which can be found in the document book, Exhibit Number 1, Pages 10 and 11.

After the failure of these negotiations, the National Socialists entered into the most intense opposition against the Government. Did this in any way change your basic course?

VON PAPEN: The oppositional attitude of the Nazis against my Government did not change my basic course at all. I spoke fully about this matter at Münster on 28 August.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: [_Turning to the Tribunal._] This speech may be found in Document Number 1, Exhibit Number 1, Page 7. And on this page I would also like to call your attention to a report on a judgment of a special court at Beuthen. There the first death sentence was passed on the basis of the terror decree of 9 August. This terror decree, with which the Prosecution wishes to incriminate the Defendant Von Papen, resulted in the death sentence against five National Socialists.

[_Turning to the defendant._] On 4 September you issued an emergency decree to revitalize economy. As this decree is the nucleus of your Government’s activity in the solution of economic problems, I should like to have you comment on this emergency decree.

VON PAPEN: I have already discussed this emergency decree and stated that it concerned a program involving 2,200 million Reichsmark with the aim of creating work for 1¾ million workers. We made this gigantic effort without increasing our foreign debt by a penny. It was, if I may characterize it in these words, the straining of our utmost and our last reserves of strength. The success became noticeable already in the first month through a decrease of 123,000 in the number of unemployed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In 1 month?

VON PAPEN: Yes, in 1 month.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Within this general labor procurement program was rearmament contemplated?

VON PAPEN: Not at all. My Government did not spend a penny for rearmament.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The details of this emergency decree may be found in Document 1, Pages 8 and 9.

Why was there another dissolution of the Reichstag on 12 September? What did you say about this on that evening over the radio?

VON PAPEN: The new Reichstag met according to the Constitution. My Government, as I have already said, could not obtain a majority; but the formation of any other government without Hitler was quite impossible. Therefore, I was justified in the hope that this Reichstag would give my Government time to test itself, especially as I had submitted to it a comprehensive and decisive economic program. But just then something unexpected and unheard-of happened.

The thing that happened was, so to speak, the prostitution of the German Parliament. Herr Göring, the President of the German Reichstag, gave to the Communist delegate, Clara Zetkin, the floor for a vehement attack on my Government. When I, the responsible Chancellor of this Government, asked for the floor in order to give an account of what I wanted to do, I was refused permission to speak, and the Reichstag President asked for a vote on a motion of no confidence brought in by the Communists, the Socialists and the National Socialists. The fact of this concerted motion on the part of the three parties should really show what would have taken place in Germany if these three parties were to have ruled in Germany together, and should also show how imperative it was for me to try not to crowd National Socialism into the leftist wing, but to bring it into my Government instead.

I was forced to put the order for the dissolution of the Reichstag on the table, and to leave.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: These historic facts may be found in Document 1, Page 8, and in the document which I have already referred to without having submitted it, Document 86, Page 192.

In a speech in Munich on 12 October you also dealt with the question of reforming the Constitution. Please tell us briefly just what opinion you voiced on that occasion.

VON PAPEN: The reform of the Constitution, as I have already mentioned, was one of the most urgent aims of my Government. The reasons for it are set forth in this document, on Page 9. This reform was to include an electoral reform, in order to end the multiplicity of parties, and the creation of an upper House. Above all, it was to give the Government more authority and more opportunities to govern than was possible under the Weimar Constitution.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: As an explanation I should like to mention that the reform of the Constitution which was to do away with the conditions at that time—that Government measures were issued solely on the authority of Article 48, the emergency decree. To what extent this took place may be seen in Document 4, which gives a picture of the great number of emergency decrees which were issued.

Witness, on 6 November 1932 the election for the Reichstag took place. What was the election slogan of the Government and what was your opinion about the result?

VON PAPEN; Unfortunately, we had to vote once again. The program of my Government was the same as it had been before—that is, the endeavor to establish a new state leadership, a state leadership with the co-operation of an effective parliament with a government vested with strong authority.

In this manifesto to the electors of 4 November I addressed Hitler and I told him:

“It is the exclusiveness of your Movement, your demand for
everything or nothing, which the Reich President could not
recognize and which led to his decision of 13 August. What is at
stake today is this: The question is not whether this or that
party leader occupies the Chancellor’s chair, whether his name
is Brüning, Hitler, or Von Papen, but rather that we meet on
common ground so that the vital interests of the German people
can be assured.”

I hoped that through this Reichstag election the National Socialists whom I opposed would be weakened in such a way that this party would be squeezed out of the central parliamentary position.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What was the result?

VON PAPEN: This result was not achieved. The National Socialists lost 34 seats, but that was not sufficient to crowd them out of their key position, for again the formation of a majority in the Reichstag from the Socialists to the extreme Right was possible only with Hitler; without him, no majority.

In order that we might be in a position to continue governing in a constitutional way, I tried once more to negotiate with the various parties and the National Socialists.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Please give us a description of these negotiations.

VON PAPEN: These negotiations are interesting, and the Tribunal must be made familiar with them so that they can judge the events of 30 January 1933.

First of all, I tried to clear the situation with those parties that were in opposition to my Government, and especially with the Social Democrats and with the Center Party. The Center Party took an adverse position. They desired a majority government with Hitler, but Hitler did not wish to govern with a parliamentary majority. From Document 2, Page 13, we can see what the attitude of the Center Party was.

Since Hitler’s collaboration in a coalition government was out of the question, I again turned to Hitler in order to ask him whether he was now ready to enter my Government. I did this out of a sense of responsibility in order to achieve any sort of result at all; and, therefore, I wrote him the letter dated 13 November 1932, which is Document D-633, which was submitted by the Prosecution as an “undignified” document because, after all of my failures, I had once more turned to Hitler. In this letter I said:

“I would consider it a violation of duty if I did not turn to
you, in spite of everything; and I am of the opinion that the
leader of such a great Movement, whose service to the country
and the people I always appreciated despite much that I had to
criticize, that this leader should not refuse to confer with the
responsible statesman.”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Then on 8 November you again turned to the foreign press and spoke to them on foreign political matters...

VON PAPEN: May I interrupt you for a moment? I should like to add here, with regard to the opinion on the letter as voiced for the Prosecution by Mr. Barrington: It is customary in every parliamentary state that, if the leader of the government turns to the opposition in order to obtain its co-operation, he writes a courteous and cordial letter to the leader of the opposition; that he does not call him an ass. Therefore, I cannot quite see why these remarks of mine are characterized as lacking dignity.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On 8 November you turned to the foreign press and spoke about the revision of the Versailles Treaty. Can you explain briefly the statement you made at that time?

VON PAPEN: I only mention the speech made to the representatives of the foreign press in order to show to the High Tribunal the frequency of my appeals to foreign countries—appeals to foreign countries, to the victorious powers—to urge them to undertake a moral reconciliation; for then, Gentlemen, the radical tendencies in Germany would have disappeared of their own accord.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: This speech before the foreign press will be found in Document 1, Pages 11 and 12.

What were the consequences of the failure of your negotiations with the party leaders?

VON PAPEN: The failure of my negotiations with the party leaders and Hitler led to my resignation on 17 November. I was instructed to carry on the affairs of the Government until a new government could be formed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What efforts were made by the Reich President, after your Cabinet resigned, towards forming a new government?

VON PAPEN: My resignation gave the Reich President the opportunity to try once more to form a parliamentary majority.

He immediately tried to do that and beginning on 18 November he received all the party leaders, from the Right to the Center; and on the 19th he received Hitler. The topic was: How can we form a parliamentary majority government? He instructed Hitler to form a majority government; Hitler would then be Chancellor.

On 23 November Göring presented Hitler’s answer to Hindenburg; it was: “Hitler could not undertake the formation of a majority government.”

On the 24th, Hindenburg received Monsignor Kaas, the leader of the Center Party. He declared that Hitler had not even tried to find out whether a majority government could be formed, but Monsignor Kaas promised the Reich President to try once more to form a majority government. On 25 November he reported to Hindenburg that the attempt had been in vain, that the leader of the Nazi faction, at that time Herr Frick, had stated that the Party would not be interested in such discussions. The result: The formation of a majority government with Hitler is impossible.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did other possibilities for a coalition present themselves? Were there other possibilities for a coalition?

VON PAPEN: No. There was only the possibility of a cabinet such as I had had, or a majority cabinet.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: With regard to these negotiations I should like to refer you to Document 2, Pages 14 and 15.

After the discussion between the Reich President and the party leaders had failed, a conference took place on 1 December between the Reich President and you and General Von Schleicher. This consultation is especially important for the future political development and has a considerable historical significance. Therefore I ask you to go into the details of this conversation.

VON PAPEN: The Field Marshal on 1 December asked General Von Schleicher and me to meet him for a conference. I should like to remark that previously no conversation between Herr Von Schleicher and myself about the possibilities for the formation of a future government had taken place. Herr Von Hindenburg asked us about our attitude; I set forth the following:

The attempt to include the Nazi movement into the Presidential Cabinet of Hindenburg had twice failed. Hitler equally refuses to form a majority government. On the other hand, he is exercising a tremendous amount of opposition and is trying to have all my decrees rescinded by the Reichstag. If therefore there is no possibility to form a parliamentary government or to include Hitler in our Government without making him Chancellor, then a state of emergency has arisen which requires extraordinary measures. Therefore, I proposed a recess of Parliament for several months and immediate preparation of a constitutional reform bill later to be presented to the Reichstag or to a national assembly. This proposal involved a violation of the Constitution.

I emphasized that I knew how the great soldier and statesman cherished the sacredness of his oath, but my conscience led me to believe that a violation of the Constitution seemed to be justified in view of the extraordinary situation, for which the German Constitution provided no remedy.

Then Herr Von Schleicher spoke. He said:

“Field Marshal, I have a plan which will make it unnecessary for
you to break your oath to the Constitution, if you are willing
to put the Government into my hands. I hope that I will be able
to obtain a parliamentary majority in the Reichstag by splitting
the National Socialist Party.”

During the discussion of this plan, I said that it was doubtful to me whether a splitting of the Party which had sworn loyalty to Hitler could be achieved. I reminded the Field Marshal of the fact that he should free himself of weak parliamentary majorities through a basic reform.

However, the proposals were thrown overboard through the solution offered by Schleicher. The solution offered by Schleicher was only a provisional matter, and a very doubtful one.

DR. KUBUS CHOK: What was the decision of the Reich President?

VON PAPEN: The decision of the Field Marshal was perhaps the most difficult that he had to make in his long life. Without giving any further reasons, he told me: “I have decided in favor of the solution of Herr Von Papen, and I request you to start immediately negotiations for the formation of a government to which I can give the instructions in accordance with your proposals.” The conference was over.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What did Herr Von Schleicher do then?

VON PAPEN: I exchanged only a few brief words with Herr Von Schleicher and tried to persuade him to recognize the decision that the Reich President had made. Herr Von Schleicher said “no.”

Then, the same evening, I started discussions with several ministers with regard to the formation of a new government. These ministers told me, “The plan is excellent, but Herr Von Schleicher has told us that we will have a civil war and in that case the Reichswehr will not be in a position to keep law and order in the country.”

I interrupted the discussion and called the Cabinet together the next morning, presenting the situation and informing them of Hindenburg’s decision. Then I asked Herr Von Schleicher to tell the Cabinet now why he believed that there would be a civil war and why the Reichswehr would not be in a position to keep law and order in the country. Herr Von Schleicher called on one of his General Staff officers to tell the Cabinet that this case had been considered from a practical and theoretical point of view and that they had come to the decision that the Reichswehr and the police were not in a position to keep law and order in the country. Then I said to the gentlemen: “This is a new situation which I have to report to the Reich President.”

I went to Hindenburg and reported to him. Herr Von Hindenburg, deeply stirred about my report, said to me, “I am an old man and I cannot face a civil war of any sort in my country. If Herr Von Schleicher is of this opinion, then I must—as much as I regret—withdraw the task with which I charged you last night.” With that, Herr Von Schleicher was appointed Chancellor on the conditions which he had offered to the Reich President at this meeting.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did Herr Von Schleicher offer you the post of Ambassador to Paris?

VON PAPEN: Herr Von Schleicher, who for a long time knew of my interest in German-French relations, asked me whether I wanted to become Ambassador in Paris. This would have been quite in accordance with my inclinations. But the Reich President objected to this, and...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, the Tribunal think that this is going in far too great detail into all this, all of which is known through history, and most of which we have heard before.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now we shall turn to the year 1933. On 4 January a conference between Hitler and you took place at the home of the banker, Schröder. The Prosecution is presenting this conference as the actual beginning of your common conspiracy. Please give the Tribunal a description of how this conference came about.

VON PAPEN: I was...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, we have been hearing for the whole of the afternoon the background of the conference. Surely we can hear of the conference now.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The defendant is charged with the fact that he was the promoter of the negotiations, which supposedly started on 4 January, for the formation of the government formed on 30 January. The role which Von Papen played in it is of decisive importance. Therefore, I consider it necessary that he tells us briefly about the background...

THE PRESIDENT: The negotiations did not start on 4 January. The defendant told us earlier, about a couple of hours ago, that they started on 12 August 1932. The negotiations started earlier than this.

VON PAPEN: I may perhaps quite briefly say, Mr. President, what it concerns. This conference on 4 January, on the occasion of which the Prosecution asserts that I pledged myself to National Socialism, was a conference which took place on the initiative of Hitler. At this conference nothing was said about the overthrow of the Government of Von Schleicher; and there was nothing said about the formation of a government by Hitler, as it later actually took place on 30 January. We merely discussed the necessity for Hitler to decide to take a responsible part, not as Chancellor, but with his Party. And, My Lord, that I did not engineer this conference or have it called may be seen clearly from the statement of Herr Von Schröder, at whose home this conference took place.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: This may be seen from Document 9, Page 26.

Witness, you are accused of the fact that in this conference you discussed plans for the overthrow of the Cabinet of Von Schleicher. Did you keep the fact of this conference from Herr Von Schleicher?

VON PAPEN: On the contrary. Immediately after this conference at Cologne, I wrote a letter to Herr Von Schleicher, which must have reached him the next morning. And after I had returned to Berlin, I went at once to Herr Von Schleicher and told him just what had been discussed at this conference. Thereupon, Herr Von Schleicher caused an official communiqué to be issued. Document Number 9.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: 9(a)—I submit Document 9(a).

VON PAPEN: In this document it says:

“The conversation revealed the complete lack of foundation for
the assertions deduced from this meeting by the press about
controversies between the Reich Chancellor Von Schleicher and
Herr Von Papen.”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did you then, that is, during the time until 22 January, participate in any political discussions about the formation of a new government?

VON PAPEN: No. Between 9 and 22 January I did not participate in any political discussions about the formation of a government.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Please give us a short summary of the political development from 10 until 21 January.

VON PAPEN: The Prosecution asserts that now, in the interval between 9 and 30 January, I was the chief factor in forming the government of Hitler on 30 January. A chronological recapitulation of the days between the 11th and the 30th will reveal how completely wrong this assertion of the Prosecution actually is. Therefore, I shall have to mention a few dates in this connection.

On 11 January: Hitler was in Berlin. He did not see Von Schleicher, Hugenberg, or Von Papen. But the Reichstag decided through the Council of Elders: “We have to give a reprieve to the Government of Von Schleicher.”

On 13 January: Schleicher receives Hugenberg, the chief of the rightist movement.

On the 14th: Hindenburg receives Hugenberg.

Later on we shall see that on both of these days, Hugenberg, the leader of the Right, negotiated with Von Schleicher about his entry into the Cabinet, not about the formation of a government with Hitler.

Then on 15 January, the well-known elections in Lippe took place. The Lippe elections gave the National Socialists a new impetus.

On 20 January, the Reichstag, the Council of Elders, decided to postpone their meeting from the 24th to the 31st.

The State Secretary of the Reich Government, Schleicher, declared in this connection: “The Reich Government intends to clarify the political situation as quickly as possible, but the Reich Government is not interested in majority questions.”

From that can be seen that Herr Von Schleicher no longer considered the formation of a government on the basis of a majority.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now we can leave the political developments and turn to your personal...

THE PRESIDENT: If you are going into another subject, we had better adjourn.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 17 June 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-SIXTH DAY
Monday, 17 June 1946

_Morning Session_

MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, report is made that the Defendants Fritzsche and Speer are absent.

[_The Defendant Von Papen resumed the stand._]

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I am now going to deal with the events of January 1933 and I should like to say that I shall then not require any more time. The rest of the examination will be shorter so that I shall be able to conclude my examination of the defendant in the course of today.

Witness, on Friday you told the Tribunal that during the well-known conversation with Hitler on 4 January 1933 at the home of Schröder, you did not discuss the formation of the Cabinet which took place later, on 30 January. You also said that up to 22 January you did not take part in any political discussion. The Prosecution, however, asserts that you influenced the Reich President to name Hitler Chancellor on 30 January. Did you influence Hindenburg to that effect?

VON PAPEN: Before I reply, may I make a brief correction? Your Lordship asked me on Friday for the date of the evacuation of Jerusalem. I said it was 1918, but of course Your Lordship was right; it was in 1917. I beg your pardon.

Now in reply to your question: I did not exert any such influence on Reich President Von Hindenburg, but even if I had done so, it would not have carried any weight in the final decision of the Reich President. The political situation, as we shall see, left the Reich President only the choice between a violation of the Constitution and a Hitler Cabinet.

Furthermore, and I already mentioned this at the conclusion of the last session, it is plain from the historical events of January as reproduced in Document 9, Pages 27 through 31, that during the entire month of January until the 22d almost daily negotiations without my participation took place between the Reich Government and the various parties or among the parties themselves. All of these negotiations were concerned with the possible formation of a majority in the Reichstag, but all of them were of no avail. I have explained that the Reich Chancellor, Von Schleicher, was trying to bring about a majority in the Reichstag by splitting the Party. This attempt, too, finally failed on 20 January; and that was obvious to the world, for on that day the Reich Chancellor authorized a statement in the Reichstag to the effect that he no longer attached importance to forming a majority in the Reichstag.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In this connection I should like to refer to Document 9 in the first document book. I shall just read a few extracts from this document, Document 9, Page 27. The heading is:

“January 11, Reich Chancellor Von Schleicher receives leader of
the German People’s Party, Dingeldey.”

On the next page, Page 28, is proof that on 12 January efforts to split the NSDAP through Strasser had not yet been abandoned. I shall quote from the beginning of the page:

“At the same time it has only now become known that the Reich
President received Gregor Strasser last week for a conference.
Strasser apparently expressed his intention of keeping in the
background for the time being; only in the event of an
unexpectedly sharp conflict between Hitler and Schleicher’s
Reich Cabinet would Strasser be likely to play a definite part.”

In the meantime the Lippe elections took place and gave a clear picture of the development of the NSDAP.

I am quoting now from the middle of the paragraph under 15 January:

“The electoral victory of the NSDAP not only surprisingly
refutes the assertions of the opposition concerning a decline of
the National Socialist movement, but is also proof that the
Movement is no longer at a standstill, and that a sharp rise has
now become apparent.”

Significant for the talks on the creation of a parliamentary majority were Schleicher’s negotiations with the Center Party, led by Prelate Dr. Kaas. I quote from the last paragraph on Page 28:

“Reich Chancellor Von, Schleicher receives Prelate Dr. Kaas,
Chairman of the Center Party, for a lengthy conference.

“In regard to the predictions on a reorganization of the
Cabinet, the fiction is kept up in government circles that a
Strasser-Hugenberg-Stegerwald combination is possible, despite
the difficulties which these plans have undoubtedly encountered.
Privy Councillor Hugenberg is said to have laid down the
condition that undisturbed activity within the Cabinet for at
least 1 year should be guaranteed.”

On the next page, Page 29, I would like to refer to the last 10 lines or so of the statement of State Secretary Planck before the Council of Elders of the Reichstag.

“In the conversations referred to, the National Socialists are
to assume the lead and to attempt to form all groups, from the
National Socialists to the Center, into a majority front of the
sort which failed to materialize at the end of 1932. The conduct
of these negotiations, in which the Schleicher Cabinet is in no
way involved, rests with Hitler. If on 31 January the Reichstag
should be summoned and a conflict arise between Government and
Reichstag or if such a conflict is brought about by other
events, the proclamation of the often discussed state of
emergency must to an increased extent be expected. The
Government would then dissolve the Reichstag and set the date
for the new elections in the early fall.”

On the following page, Page 30, I should like to refer finally to the first heading...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, the Tribunal does not think it necessary to read all this detail. It is evident from the headlines of these entries that there were political negotiations which led to the assumption of power by the National Socialist Party. Is that not all that you want to say?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I want to prove that the formation of the Government on 30 January was an imperative solution arising out of the political parliamentary incidents of the day. Therefore, it is of relevance to note what took place at the time, what attempts failed, what other possibilities existed, and what...

THE PRESIDENT: What I mean is this: It appears, does it not, from the headlines of these entries. Really, you can read the headlines without reading the details. For example, on Page 30, the entry on 21 January, and those other entries, give the substance of the matter.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Very well, Mr. President. May I then be permitted to read Page 31, part of the text describing the historical events of the overthrow of Chancellor Schleicher on the 28th? Regarding the decisive conversation between the Reich Chancellor and the Reich President the following was officially announced:

“Reich Chancellor Von Schleicher submitted to the Reich
President today his report on the situation, and declared that
the present Reich Cabinet, on account of its character as a
minority Government, would be in a position to represent its
program and its views in the Reichstag only if the Reich
President placed the dissolution order at his disposal. Reich
President Von Hindenburg stated that in view of the prevailing
situation he could not accept this proposition. Reich Chancellor
Von Schleicher hereupon submitted the collective resignation of
the Reich Cabinet, which the Reich President accepted; the
Cabinet was entrusted with continuing provisionally to discharge
official business.”

As proof for the fact that the possibility of Hitler forming a parliamentary government did not exist, I want to refer to a brief extract on Page 32:

“National Socialist sources again state categorically that for
the National Socialists only a Hitler government can be
considered. Any other attempts towards a solution must be
prevented with the utmost vigor. This, of course, applies to a
Papen cabinet; but a Schacht cabinet also is out of the
question.”

I should now like to refer to the next document, Document 8. In this document all the possibilities for the formation of a government are discussed in detail.

Witness, how did Reich Chancellor Von Schleicher react to this political situation?

VON PAPEN: After his efforts to split the Party and to bring about a majority in the Reichstag had failed, Reich Chancellor Von Schleicher asked the Reich President to give him dictatorial powers, which meant a violation of the Constitution. Thus he wanted the very thing which I had proposed to the Reich President on 1 December 1932 as the only way out of the situation, a proposal which the Reich President had accepted at that time but which General Von Schleicher had thwarted.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: A discussion took place on 22 January at the home of Von Ribbentrop at which, besides yourself, Göring, Meissner, and Oskar von Hindenburg were present. Was this discussion arranged on your initiative, or who suggested it?

VON PAPEN: The initiative for this discussion on the 22d was Hitler’s, and he also suggested that Herr Von Ribbentrop should place his home at our disposal. The Reich President wished to know what Hitler thought about the solution for the political crisis, and what his proposals were. Therefore, the conversation of the 22d concentrated exclusively on the demands of the National Socialists, while the formation of a government as it took place on the 30th was not discussed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On 28 January, at noon, the Reich President instructed you to begin negotiations for the formation of a new government. What possibilities for the formation of a government did you consider the political situation offered?

VON PAPEN: The idea of forming a parliamentary majority government had been abandoned since 20 January; it was impossible. Hitler was not willing to lead or participate in such a government.

Secondly, further support of the Schleicher presidential cabinet by means of a declaration of a state of emergency and the prorogation of the Reichstag, which was against the Constitution, had been rejected by the Reich President on the 23d. He had rejected these proposals, as we know, because Von Schleicher had told him in December that a violation of the Constitution would mean civil war and a civil war would mean chaos, “because I am not in a position,” he said, “to maintain law and order with the Army and with the Police.”

Thirdly, since Hitler offered to participate in a presidential cabinet, this was the only remaining possibility, and all the forces and political parties which had supported my Government in 1932 were available for this.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What were the instructions which the Reich President gave you?

VON PAPEN: The instructions given me by Von Hindenburg were as follows:

Proposal for the formation of a government under the leadership of Hitler, with the utmost restriction of National Socialist influence and within the framework of the Constitution.

I should like to add that it was quite unusual for the Reich President to ask any person to form a government which would not be headed by the person himself. In the normal course of events Hindenburg should, of course, have entrusted Hitler himself with the formation of a government; and he entrusted me with this task because he wished to minimize Hitler’s influence in the government as far as possible.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: And with whom did you negotiate?

VON PAPEN: I negotiated with the leaders of the rightist groups which might participate in the formation of this government; namely, the NSDAP, the German National People’s Party, the “Stahlhelm,” and the German People’s Party.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On what lines did you suggest the formation of the new cabinet to the Reich President?

VON PAPEN: I suggested the only possibility which existed, namely, a coalition cabinet consisting of these groups.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, the Tribunal thinks that the defendant is going into far too much detail about this, because he has given his account of why the President sent for him and why he had anything to do with it. And that is the only matter that concerns him. After he has given that explanation, it should not be necessary to go into any further detail about it at all.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Mr. President, the Prosecution has made the charge that the very act of forming the government was a crime; he is therefore defending himself by stating that he tried to provide for a safeguard against the preponderant influence of Hitler in the government. It is relevant...

THE PRESIDENT: Yes; but that is what I said. He has given that explanation. He does not need to add all sorts of details to support that explanation.

I have written down, some moments ago, that the President asked him because he wished to minimize the influence of Hitler. Now he is going on with all sorts of details.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Mr. President, he is merely trying to set forth in what way he wanted to limit Hitler’s influence, and that is a very important point. He is going to tell us for what safeguards within this government he provided; the selection of personalities, all the other restrictions which were agreed upon to rule out the possibility of Hitler’s influence becoming overpowering. This is a very important point in reply to the Prosecution’s charges.

THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can do it as shortly as possible, and not do it in too great detail. That is all the Tribunal wants.

VON PAPEN: I shall be very brief, My Lord.

The safeguarding measures which I introduced at the request of the Reich President were the following: 1) A very small number of National Socialist ministers in the new cabinet; only 3 out of 11, including Hitler. 2) The decisive economic departments of the cabinet to be placed in the hands of non-National Socialists. 3) Experts to be put into the ministry posts as far as possible. 4) Joint reports of Reich Chancellor Hitler and Vice Chancellor Von Papen to Hindenburg in order to minimize the personal influence of Hitler on Hindenburg. 5) I tried to form a parliamentary bloc as a counterbalance against the political effects of the National Socialist Party.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: To what extent did Reich President Von Hindenburg himself select the members of the new cabinet?

VON PAPEN: The Reich President reserved the right to appoint the Foreign Minister and the Reichswehr Minister. The first of these two key posts was given to Herr Von Neurath, in whom the President had special confidence; and the Reich Defense Ministry was given to General Von Blomberg, who also enjoyed the particular confidence of the Reich President. The National Socialist members of this cabinet were only the Reich Minister of the Interior, Frick, whose activity as Minister of the Interior for the State of Thuringia had been completely moderate, and the Minister without Portfolio, and later Prussian Minister of the Interior, Göring.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In this connection I should like to refer to Document