Chapter XIII: Book 3: , Document Numbers 87 and 93, namely, an affidavit of the former (1)

Minister, Dr. Alfred Hugenberg, and an interrogatory of Freiherr von Lersner.

THE PRESIDENT: What page in Book 3 did you say?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Hugenberg’s statement is on Pages 194-195; Lersner’s on Pages 210-212.

The Prosecution asserts that the Government formed on 30 January took over the program of the NSDAP as its own. Will you explain now, Witness, what the basis of that Government’s policy was.

VON PAPEN: The view held by the Prosecution is completely incorrect. The program which on 30 January we decided to adopt was not the program of the Nazi Party, but it was a coalition program. And this is perfectly plain from the proclamation which this Government issued to the German people on 1 February. And to give historical proof of this, may I quote two sentences from that proclamation? It says:

“The National Government will consider it as its first and
foremost task to restore the spiritual and political unity of
our people. It will consider Christianity as the basis of its
general moral outlook and will firmly protect the family as the
determining unit of the nation and the State.

“The tremendous problem of reorganizing our economy will be
solved with two large Four Year Plans.”

I should like to add just one sentence:

“This Government is fully conscious of the magnitude of its duty
to support the maintenance and affirmation of peace, which the
world now needs more than ever.”

In addition, this coalition program, which the Prosecution describes as the Nazi program, contained the following points: Continued existence of the Länder and the federal character of the Reich; protection of justice and the legal system, permanent tenure of office for judges; reform of the Constitution; safeguarding of the rights of the Christian churches; and, above all, abolition of the class conflict through a solution of social problems, the restoration of a true national community.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did you yourself do anything else to assure the application of your own political ideas?

VON PAPEN: I did everything within my power, together with my political friends, to carry through the ideas which I myself had contributed to this political program. At that time the essential point seemed to me the creation of a counterbalance to National Socialism; and therefore, I asked the leaders of the rightist parties to give up the old party programs and to unite in a large, common political organization with the aim of fighting for the principles which we had enunciated. However, the party leaders did not act on this suggestion. Party differences were too marked and no changes took place. The only thing I accomplished was the establishment of a voting bloc of all three parties, and on behalf of this voting bloc I made many speeches in which I presented this program, this coalition program, to the country.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I want to refer to a speech delivered by the witness on 11 February on behalf of the voting bloc; it may be found in Document 12, Pages 54 and 55. I quote from about the middle of Page 55, the following brief passage:

“Therefore, I consider the circumstance that the present Reich
Cabinet is not made up of one single party or movement, but of
various groups of the national movement, of free politicians and
experts, not a disadvantage, but rather an advantage.”

What specific questions were emphasized and underlined in the program of this voting bloc? You spoke of these questions in various speeches. In order to save time, I should like only to submit to the Tribunal the document dealing with this point, Document Number 10. Will you briefly explain your attitude, and comment on the various questions; first of all, the social problem?

VON PAPEN: The social problem was, of course, at the head of my program, because this question dominated all others. It was our task to make well-satisfied citizens out of the workers who were now engaged in class conflict and to give to each the opportunity of a livelihood and a home. I stated in the speech, which is contained in this document, that there would always be differences in property but that a small group should not possess everything while the great mass of the people had nothing. And above all, I again and again emphasized the fact that if we could succeed in solving the social problem we would, in that way, make an eminent contribution to peace in Europe.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What was your program in foreign political matters?

VON PAPEN: The program was very simple. It consisted merely of the desire to do away, in a peaceful manner, with the discriminations against the German people and against our sovereignty.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What was your platform on religious questions?

VON PAPEN: It is plain from all of my speeches that I considered the regeneration of the German people in a Christian sense as the prerequisite for the solution of the social and all other problems which confronted us. I shall return to this point later.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to submit as evidence the document which I have already mentioned, Document Number 10; and I ask that the High Tribunal take judicial notice of it. Since a mistake affecting the sense of the translation has been made on Page 39 and since the question of dissolving the trade unions will play an important role later, I should like to read a brief paragraph on Page 39, about the middle of the page:

“I recognize that the trade unions have done much to imbue the
working classes with professional honor and professional pride.
Many trade unions, for instance the Union of Clerks, have made
exemplary achievements in this respect. The conception of class
conflict, however, stood in the way of real reform and
constructive work in this direction.

“The Socialist parties prevented the trade unions’ efforts to
convert the workers into a class. If the trade unions would
recognize the signs of the times and remain out of politics to a
greater extent, then they could, especially now, become a strong
pillar of the national life.”

Please comment on the results of the elections on 5 March 1933.

I just want to draw the Court’s attention in this connection to Document Number 98, in which I have set down a diagram of the election results in the years in question.

VON PAPEN: This election became extremely significant for later developments. First of all, I should like to state that this election was a truly free one, for it was conducted together with the old functionaries of the Republic; and that it was actually free is also shown by the fact that the votes of the Communists and of the Social Democrats did not decrease at all. I, personally, had expected that the NSDAP would be successful at the polls. In November 1932 I had taken away 36 of its seats in the Reichstag, and I expected that it would regain some of those seats. I had also hoped that my own voting bloc would be very successful. I hoped that the people would realize the necessity of creating a counterbalance. However, this did not happen...

THE PRESIDENT: Surely the figures are sufficient for us. We can form our own conclusions from the figures. We can see the figures. We do not need to have them all explained and commented on to us. There are very much more important things for us to consider.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Witness, will you now describe the events leading up to the Enabling Act of 23 March 1933.

VON PAPEN: The Enabling Act arose out of the necessity to have the economic measures carried out in an untroubled Reichstag session. Negotiations were conducted with the Center Party to obtain a 1-year parliamentary truce, but these negotiations failed. Hence this law which had some parallels in the past became a necessity. The Prosecution has emphasized this law as clear proof for the existence of a conspiracy. May I say, therefore, that I myself tried to provide for a certain check by desiring to maintain the veto power of the Reich President. The Cabinet records of 15 March show, however, that State Secretary Meissner did not consider the participation of the Reich President necessary.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to refer to Document Number 25, which is identical with Exhibit USA-578, to the attitude taken by Von Papen in this Cabinet discussion and to the standpoint just mentioned of State Secretary Meissner.

“Meissner, State Secretary of the minority Cabinet, of the
Cabinet of the Reich President, and his excellent assistant.”

I should also like to refer to Document 23, because from the enumeration of the emergency decrees in that document it is clear that in the state of emergency which obtained then it was not possible to govern by means of Reichstag laws and that the Enabling Act was to be a substitute for these emergency decrees which were being repeatedly issued.

I must make one correction: The standpoint of State Secretary Meissner is contained in Document 91, Exhibit USA-578.

[_Turning to the defendant._] On 21 March 1933, an amnesty decree was issued. The Prosecution has described this decree as an unheard-of law. What can you say about it?

VON PAPEN: The Prosecution calls this law “sanction of political murder.”

I should like to say the following about it: This law was issued in an emergency decree of the Reich President, not of the Cabinet; and it was a natural end of a revolutionary period which had lasted 7 weeks. There are very many historical parallels for this amnesty decree; for example, the law which was issued by the young German Republic on 21 July 1922 and which includes murder in the amnesty measures.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: May I now refer to Document 28, Page 99 of Document Book 1. This contains the law of 21 July 1922, which concludes “the period of a state of unrest which obtained in the years 1920 and 1921.” May I also refer to Page 100 of this Document Number 28 which contains the law of 20 December 1932 which has been mentioned.

On 23 March the law dealing with the special courts was issued. What can you say in that connection?

VON PAPEN: These special laws, or special court laws, are also not entirely new. I, personally, as Chancellor of the Reich issued such a law on 9 August 1932; and I based my action then on a directive of the Brüning Cabinet dated 6 October 1931. In revolutionary periods punishable political acts must be brought to speedy trial under the law.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: May I now point out Document 27, Page 89 of Document Book 1, especially the introduction preceding Paragraph 1, which shows that this emergency decree was based on the Brüning emergency directive of 1931.

On 1 April 1933 the Jewish boycott was carried out. Was this a measure taken by the Government? Did you participate in it in any way?

VON PAPEN: The assertion of Dr. Goebbels that the Cabinet had approved this measure was completely false. On the contrary, at the suggestion of the Cabinet Hitler had on 10 and 12 March made public announcements which my counsel will submit.

The Prosecution refers to the telegram which I sent to New York on the 25th as a “white lie of the greatest magnitude”; I can only say, however, that this assertion is completely unfounded. The public statements of Hitler gave us, in fact had to give us, the assurance that such excesses would not take place again. In that belief I sent my telegram. It would be inconceivable that on the 25th I should send a telegram to New York...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, I thought your question was: Did the defendant participate in these measures? I do not know what his answer is. He has been answering for some minutes, but I do not know what the answer is.

The question was: Did you participate? And I do not know what he has answered.

VON PAPEN: I said that the assertion of Goebbels that the Cabinet had approved this Jewish boycott was a lie.

THE PRESIDENT: Why not answer directly; did you or did you not participate?

VON PAPEN: No, we did not participate.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: May I refer to Document 33, Page 113, a statement by Hitler on 10 March, the last two lines:

“Annoying individuals, obstructing automobiles, or disturbing
business life must absolutely be discontinued.”

On the same page, Page 113, a declaration of Hitler on 12 March, last sentence of the paragraph next to the last:

“Whoever, from now on, attempts by individual action to cause
disturbances in our administrative or business life, acts
consciously against the National Government.”

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, I did not intend to prevent the defendant telling the Tribunal what he had done with reference to his telegram to the _New York Times_, but I wanted him in the first instance to answer your question.

Now, if he wants to add anything about what he telegraphed to the _New York Times_, let him do so.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Will you then, please, go back to this point in connection with the _New York Times_.

VON PAPEN: I can only add, My Lord, that it would be quite inconceivable that on 25 April I should send this telegram to New York knowing that 3 or 4 days later a new Jewish boycott would be carried out; that is completely nonsensical. Moreover, I might point out that on the same day Herr Von Neurath sent a similar wire to Cardinal O’Connell.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Will you now give an account of your attitude to the Jewish problem?

VON PAPEN: My attitude toward the Jewish problem can be briefly delineated; it has always, throughout my life, been the attitude expected by the Catholic Church of its members. I stated my view on the question of race, as regards National Socialist doctrine, quite publicly in a speech in Gleiwitz in the year 1933, and my counsel will submit that speech as evidence.

A completely different question not connected with my basic attitude toward the Jewish problem was, however, the kind of foreign monopoly, the overwhelming influence of the Jewish element in the spheres which form the nation’s public opinion, such as press, literature, theater, film, and especially law. There seemed no doubt in my mind that this foreign monopoly was unhealthy and that it should be remedied in some way. But as I said, that had nothing whatever to do with the racial question.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer now to Document 16, Page 68, which contains an extract from the speech which, as the defendant mentioned, he made in the year 1934 at Gleiwitz. I quote:

“There are certainly no objections to race research and eugenics
which endeavor to keep the characteristics of a nation as pure
as possible and at the same time to kindle the feeling of a
racial community. This love of one’s own race will never
degenerate into hatred of other nations and races. That is the
decisive point. Eugenics must never be brought into conflict
with Christianity for they are not opposed, they only differ. It
was Christianity which first made of the German tribes a German
nation, and it is really not necessary to create a new
Nordic-Germanic religion in order to give testimony to our
race.”

May I refer also to Document 29, Page 103, which deals with the second topic discussed by the defendant; it is an excerpt from the diary of Mr. Dodd on 4 July. I then refer to Document 35, Page 115, which contains an article from the _Völkischer Beobachter_ dated 19 August 1932. The heading of that, article is:

“The Papen Government Has Inscribed the Protection of Jews on
its Banner.”

THE PRESIDENT: That was August 1932? Where is it?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 35, Page 115. I just read the heading of this article in the _Völkischer Beobachter_ dated 19 August 1932.

“The Papen Government Has Inscribed the Protection of Jews on
its Banner.”

The article deals with a statement of Herr Kareski, Berlin, as representative of the Jewish People’s Party. Kareski was head of the synagogue in Berlin. He stated at that time—and I quote the last paragraph of this article:

“Fortunately, the Constitution of the German Republic still
protects the legal position of the Jews and the Papen Government
has inscribed the protection of the Jews on its banner.”

The Civil Service Law of 7 April 1933 contains certain exceptions applying to Jews. Originally these exceptions were planned to be much more extensive; did you do anything to restrict them to the form in which they were then issued?

VON PAPEN: May I just add one thing? I believe you forgot to submit to the Tribunal Document 33, relevant to the question of foreign monopoly in the German legal system.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I shall submit that document after your answer to the question I have just put.

VON PAPEN: I approved of the Civil Service Law of 7 April 1933 only insofar as it applied to Jewish civil servants appointed after the year 1918. For after the war large-scale immigration into Germany had taken place from the east, especially from Poland, a country which was strongly anti-Semitic at the time.

I successfully pleaded with Hindenburg that soldiers who had taken part in the war should under no circumstance be affected by this law, for I always held the view that a German, no matter of what race, who had done his duty to his country should not be restricted in his rights.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer now to Document 33, Page 114. It is a report of the Ministry of Justice, which shows that when the Civil Service Law was issued 3,515 Jewish attorneys were practicing. On the basis of the mitigation which the witness has just mentioned, 735 ex-service men and 1,383 other attorneys who had been admitted to the bar before 1914 were exempted from this law. Thus 2,158 Jewish attorneys remained, whereas 923 had to resign from office.

What was your view of the Civil Service Law as a whole?

VON PAPEN: I think it was completely normal that the National Socialists, since they were partners in the coalition government and controlled more than 50 percent of the German people’s vote, should have a part in filling civil service posts.

I might point out that the National Socialists, in the propaganda which they conducted for years, fought with all means against the so-called “Bonzentum” (boss rule); but one could not, of course, predict that they themselves would later make that same mistake.

THE PRESIDENT: Would this be a convenient time to adjourn?

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. KUBUSCHOK: We have been speaking of the Civil Service Law, which in the points we have discussed corresponds to some extent to the trend of thought of the NSDAP. Why did you feel impelled to urge certain concessions which were then, in fact, made?

VON PAPEN: I was convinced at the time that with this Civil Service Law we were creating something basic. I did not anticipate, and I could not guess, that the Party would continually in the following years introduce new laws in this field and would thereby completely ruin the civil service.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What was your attitude towards the dissolution of the parties?

VON PAPEN: The exclusion of parties was a necessary result of the Enabling Act. For 4 years Hitler had demanded the reforms which we wanted to make. Document 25 shows that I asked Hitler to create a new basic State law, and, in his speech of 23 March Hitler promised that. In that speech he spoke of a reform of the Constitution to be carried through by the appropriate existing constitutional organs. That reform would have given us, in my opinion, in a revolutionary way, a new and sounder democratic and parliamentary form of government. Moreover, I must say that I saw no danger in the temporary use of the one-party system. There were excellent examples for it in other states, for instance in Turkey and Portugal, where this one-party system was functioning very well. Finally, I should like to point out that in my speech at Marburg on 17 June 1934 I criticized this development and said that one could only regard it as a transitional stage which a reconstructed Constitution would have to terminate.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What is your view of the Reichsstatthalter Law of April 1933? Will you also state your attitude to the question of German federation?

VON PAPEN: This question, Gentlemen of the Tribunal, has been brought up by the Prosecution in order to accuse me of duplicity, untruthfulness, or deceit. The Prosecution has alleged that in 1932 my views on the federal character of Germany were different from those I expressed in 1933. But even if I had changed my mind in this respect, I cannot see why the question of a federal or a central government should be a crime within this Charter. Besides, I did not change my mind at all. The view I expressed in 1932 was this: I recognized the advantages of a federal system for Germany, and I wanted to maintain it; but I always wished, even in 1932, that there should be joint agreement on the bigger political issues in Germany. That a federal country is governed on uniform principles is surely a matter of course. That was the only question, and it was also the basis of my intervention in Prussia on 20 July.

If one knows the history of Germany, one will be aware that Bismarck overcame that difficulty by combining the offices of the Reich Chancellor and the Prussian Prime Minister. Therefore, when in 1933 we appointed Reichsstatthalter in the various Länder, we merely intended to establish a common political line. Besides, the rights of the Länder remained unaffected. They had their own financial, legal, and educational systems, and their own parliaments.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: With regard to the Reichsstatthalter Law, may I refer to Document 31, particularly Page 111 of that document. The passage quoted there from the Pfundtner-Neubert works shows that the authority of the Länder was abolished only by the later Reichsstatthalter Law in the year 1935, when the Defendant Von Papen was no longer in office.

Why did you on 7 April 1933 resign as Prime Minister of Prussia?

VON PAPEN: My letter to Hitler dated 10 April 1934 has been submitted by the Prosecution. It contains the reasons for my resignation. In Prussia—I have already stated this—I had already carried through the co-ordination of political aims on 20 July. The Reichsstatthalter Law enabled the Reich Chancellor to be Prime Minister of Prussia himself or to nominate a substitute. And so my task in Prussia was completed. Apart from that, I should like to mention the following point: The elections of 5 March had given the National Socialists a strong majority also in the Prussian Parliament. The Prussian Parliament then met and naturally desired that a National Socialist should become Prime Minister of Prussia. For all these reasons I resigned.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The Prosecution charges that, as a prominent lay member of the Catholic Church, you were particularly able to consolidate the Nazi regime in the field of the churches. We must therefore discuss your attitude regarding the Church. Will you give an account of the situation of the German Church at that time?

VON PAPEN: This charge, Gentlemen of the Tribunal, is for me the most serious of the entire Indictment—the charge that I, as a Catholic, contributed to this conspiracy against world peace. May I be permitted, therefore, to discuss my attitude in the Church question quite briefly.

The Catholics in Germany had organized themselves in the Center Party. Before 1918 the Center Party, as a moderate party, had always endeavored to establish a balance between the left and the right political wings. After the war that picture was altered entirely.

We then find the Center Party mostly in coalition with the left. In Prussia, this coalition was maintained during all the years from 1918 until 1932. Undeniably the Center Party deserves much credit for the maintenance of the life of the State during the years after the collapse; but the coalition with the Social Democrats made co-operation of the Center Party with the right impossible, particularly with regard to Church policy. In political questions and matters of internal party policy the Center Party, therefore, followed a line of compromise which was the result obtained through the concessions of others in the field of Church policy. That this state of affairs...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, to what is this all relevant?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The Prosecution has said:

“Papen used his position of a prominent Catholic to consolidate
the Nazi regime. He was double-faced, and that characteristic is
especially obvious in this connection and throws light on his
personality.”

The defendant is now explaining what his attitude in Church matters has been from the beginning of his political activity. Since he was first a member of the Center Party and then left it, it is necessary to discuss the split which developed between him and the leaders of the party. Later we shall...

THE PRESIDENT: Why is it necessary to go into this extreme detail? Surely the thing that he wants to show is that he was not assisting the Nazi Party. He was undoubtedly a Catholic, and he wants to show that he was not assisting the Nazi Party. He does not want to go into all of these details about Catholic influences and his part in Catholic influences.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Mr. President, may I say quite generally that in dealing with the case of Papen it is our intention to prove that from the very beginning the defendant consistently adhered to his principles. For this purpose it is essential that the conditions prevailing at particular times should be elucidated. We are now not very far from the point at which we can leave the internal political conditions, and the other subjects will be very much briefer. I do think, however, that for the sake of completing the picture of the defendant’s personality, I must go into certain details; but of course we shall make every effort to omit all superfluous and avoidable particulars.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, we are perfectly well aware that the case of every one of these 21 defendants is different from the others. We are perfectly aware of that, but what we desire is that their cases should be put forward fairly but without unnecessary and burdensome detail. They hope that you will try to confine the defendant to the really essential matters. Will you go on?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Very well, Mr. President. We shall do our best.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Will you continue, please.

VON PAPEN: Perhaps I may wind up this question by saying that my opposition within the Party, my plea for the use of conservative forces, gave me the reputation of being a bad Catholic. A foreign judge, a non-German judge cannot know that in those years a Catholic who was not a member of the Center Party but belonged to the right-wing parties was regarded as a bad and inferior Catholic; and that is the state of affairs against which I always fought.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In his government statement of 4 June 1932 Von Papen referred to the fact that the outcome of the previous coalition policy in Prussia was fully evidenced in the entire public life of Germany. I refer to Document 1, Page 2, and I quote the last part of the first long paragraph:

“The disintegration of atheistic-Marxist thoughts has already
too deeply invaded all the cultural fields of public life,
because the Christian forces of the State were all too easily
ready for compromises. The purity of public life cannot be
maintained or re-established by way of compromises for the sake
of parity. A clear decision must be made as to what forces are
willing to help reconstruct the new Germany on the basis of the
unchangeable principles of the Christian ideology.”

I also refer to Document Number 37, on Page 119, a speech at Munich on 1 March 1933, when the witness discussed the aspects which he has just mentioned.

Witness, how did you think the position of the churches was safeguarded by the new Government, and what did you do in that respect?

VON PAPEN: First of all, I asked Hitler to make a clear-cut statement on this question; and he did so in a positive manner. In the foreword to my speeches made at that time, there is the observation that it is the first and most important task to revise the Nazi program with reference to the religious problem, since such a revision is a prerequisite for a united front of the two Christian confessions in that coalition. Secondly, I attempted to protect Church policy by giving it, after the conclusion of the Concordat, a certain foreign political context.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In this connection may I refer to Document 37, Pages 119 and 120, containing an extract from several speeches delivered by the witness, and to Volume I, Document 38, further down on Page 119, which is a speech made at Dortmund in February 1933. In it the Defendant Von Papen said...

THE PRESIDENT: We have that document before us.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 37, Page 119.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have got that, yes. All I was suggesting was that it was sufficient to refer us to the document. As a matter of fact, you have already got to the time when he resigned his post as Prime Minister of Prussia in 1934, and now you are going back to 1933.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: He resigned in Prussia in 1933. May I draw the Tribunal’s attention, then, to this speech on Page 120.

THE PRESIDENT: Did he resign in 1933 or 1934?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: 1933.

I draw the Court’s attention to this speech, and to Page 120, a proclamation of the Reich Government of 1 February 1933.

[_Turning to the defendant._] What were the events leading up to the Concordat?

VON PAPEN: I reiterate that I wanted to secure a Christian basis for the Reich at all costs. For that reason, I suggested to Hitler in April 1933 that the rights of the Church should be firmly laid down in a Concordat, and that this Concordat should be followed by an agreement with the Evangelical Church. Hitler agreed, although there was strong opposition in the Party; and thus the Concordat was concluded. The Prosecution has adopted the view that this Concordat was a maneuver intended to deceive. Perhaps I may in this connection point to the facts that the gentlemen with whom I signed this Concordat were Secretary of State Pacelli, the present Pope, who had known Germany personally for 13 years, and Monsignor Kaas, who for years had been the Chairman of the Center Party, and that if these two men were willing to conclude a Concordat, then one can surely not maintain that this was a maneuver intended to deceive.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer to Document 39, Page 121. I should like to read now a quotation from Document 40, on Page 122. After the conclusion of the Concordat, Hitler published a decree, which is worded as follows—near the middle of Page 122:

“I therefore order:

“1. All Catholic organizations which are recognized by the
present Treaty and which were dissolved without directions from
the Government are to be immediately reinstated.

“2. All measures of coercion against members of the clergy and
other leaders of these Catholic organizations are to be
rescinded. A revival of such measures is prohibited in the
future and will be punished under prevailing laws.”

I read that quotation to prove that only later did Hitler change his mind, probably under the influence of the circle nearest to him.

I refer to Document 41, Page 123, a telegram of Von Papen. In the English translation of this telegram there is a mistake which changes the sense considerably. Paragraph 2 of the telegram says, “Thanks to your generous and wise statesmanlike conception....” The English translation reads “sportsmanlike” instead of “statesmanlike.”

On the next page I draw attention to the telegram addressed by Von Papen to the Bishop of Treves. There are also affidavits relevant to the questions which have been discussed. Document 43, Page 127 is the affidavit of Freiherr von Twickel, and it takes the place of an affidavit which the late Cardinal Von Galen was to have signed. The matter had already been discussed with Cardinal Von Galen; but before being able to put it into writing, he died. Freiherr von Twickel, who discussed the questions with him, has now stated the details in his affidavit, Document 43, on Page 127.

I also draw particular attention to Document 52, on Page 139. This is an affidavit of the Abbot of the Benedictine Abbey at Grüssau, Schmitt, who for many years had been the spiritual adviser of the defendant. In the last but one paragraph on Page 139, he discusses the question of the Concordat, and says:

“Herr Von Papen was deeply upset by the disloyal attitude of the
German Government, which became apparent soon after the
conclusion of the Concordat. He continually and fully discussed
with me his great anxiety in this respect, and he pondered ways
and means of ending these violations. I can also testify, from
my own experience, that he personally worked actively in the
interests of the Church to assure a loyal observance of the
Concordat.”

Witness, did you, apart from the Concordat, endeavor to see to it that your views on Church policy were adopted?

VON PAPEN: Yes. On 15 June 1933 I created an organization in Berlin which we called the “Cross and Eagle,” and a little later I founded the Union (Arbeitsgemeinschaft) of Catholic Germans. Catholic forces were to gather within these two organizations, outside the political parties. The Union of Catholic Germans had the particular task of collecting complaints and reporting them to me, so that I could try my best to help.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The Prosecution charges that by dissolving the Union of Catholic Germans you yourself violated the Concordat. What can you say to that?

VON PAPEN: Yes, and furthermore the Prosecution already describes the period which followed the Concordat as “the characteristic development of the Church policy of the conspirators, and Papen’s participation in it.”

The accusation raised by the Prosecution, with regard to my own sabotage of the Concordat, is a tremendous accusation, which is connected with the dissolution of the Union which I have just mentioned. The documents show that this Union had already been paralyzed during the Röhm Putsch on 30 June 1934 and that its later dissolution through me was merely a formal affair. Moreover, this Union had no connection whatever with the Concordat. It was a political union which never enjoyed the protection of the Concordat.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer to Document 45, on Page 129. It is an exchange of telegrams between Hitler and Hindenburg on the question of the appeasement of the Evangelical Church.

For the subject of the Union of Catholic Germans I refer to Document 74, Pages 130 to 132. This document contains an affidavit—I beg your pardon, I gave a wrong figure—I refer to Document 47, on Page 130, which is an affidavit of the executive of the Union of Catholic Germans, Count Roderich Thun. He discusses the dissolution on Page 131, and I quote the second paragraph:

“On 30 June 1934 the office of the Union of Catholic Germans was
occupied by officials of the Gestapo. The files were confiscated
and taken away. I myself was arrested.”

The fact that as a result of these measures the dissolution became a mere formality is mentioned in the last paragraph of Page 131:

“Even after my release, which was effected after a time, the
confiscated files were not returned. In view of the attitude
taken up by the Party authorities, a revival of any further
activity on the part of the organization could no longer be
considered. Furthermore, in practice, any further activity of
the Union of Catholic Germans was no longer possible, as the
only person who could have undertaken the constantly necessary
interventions, Herr Von Papen, was out of the picture since he
had moved to Vienna. The only question which remained for the
heads of the Union was that of officially declaring an end of
the Union’s activities, which in practice had already occurred.
But one had to consider that in the event of an official
announcement of the enforced dissolution, the large number of
Catholics who had distinguished themselves through their work
for the organization would be persecuted. In order to prevent
this the dissolution was pronounced by the Union’s own leaders.”

Then I quote the last sentence:

“In order to do everything still possible to safeguard Catholic
interests, this pronouncement did not neglect to point out again
that official authorities, above all Hitler himself, had
solemnly vowed to protect Christian and ecclesiastical
interests.”

THE PRESIDENT: Will you remind me of the date when the Defendant Von Papen moved to Vienna?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On 15 August 1934 he went to Vienna; he was appointed at the end of July 1934.

[_Turning to the defendant._] In the summer of 1934 it became obvious that the Party was sabotaging the Concordat, and that Hitler’s assurances were not being kept. How do you explain Hitler’s behavior in this respect?

VON PAPEN: I believe that in those days Hitler himself had been entirely willing to keep peace with the Church, but that the radical elements in his Party did not wish it, that most of all Goebbels and Bormann continually instigated Hitler to violate assurances in the Church question. Often and repeatedly I protested to Hitler, and in my speech at Marburg I branded these violations publicly. I stated at Marburg, “How can we fulfill our historic mission in Europe if we ourselves strike our name from the list of Christian peoples.”

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I draw attention to Document Number 85 on Page 186 and ask that judicial notice be taken of it. It is an affidavit by Dr. Glasebock, former leader of the Front of German Conservative Catholics.

Witness, on 14 March 1937 Pope Pius XI expressed his burning anxiety in an Encyclical and solemnly protested against the interpretation and the violations of the Concordat. The Prosecution said that if you had been serious in giving the assurances contained in the Concordat, you would at that point have had to resign from your official post. What do you say to that?

VON PAPEN: What could I have improved by resigning? Apart from the Austrian affair, I no longer had any political influence at all on Hitler; and my own conviction that in the critical time of 1937 there was an urgent necessity for me to remain in Austria did not permit me to leave my post there. We shall see that later from the developments.

Besides, if the Prosecution assumes that on account of the certainly quite justified Encyclical of the Pope I should have left my post, then I must ask what did the Church do? The Church did not recall the Papal Nuncio from Berlin, and Bishop Berning did not leave the State Council in which he represented Catholic interests. No doubt all this was quite justified, because all of us at that time still hoped for inner changes.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I draw attention to Document 48, Page 133. The document has already been submitted as Exhibit USA-356; it is on Page 133 in my document book. It is the speech of Pope Pius XII on 2 June 1945. I quote:

“It must, nevertheless, be recognized that the Concordat, in the
years that followed, brought some advantages, or at least
prevented worse evils. In fact, despite all the violations to
which it was subjected, it gave Catholics a juridical basis for
their defense, a stronghold behind which they could shield
themselves in their opposition—as long as this was possible—to
the ever-growing campaign of religious persecution.”

A practical effect of the Concordat is shown in Document 49, on Page 134 of my document book. It has already been presented as Exhibit USA-685. It is a letter from the Deputy of the Führer to the Reich Minister of Education and deals with the dissolution of the theological faculties of the universities. I quote the last paragraph of that letter:

“In this case, as you have likewise pointed out in your letter,
the directives of the Concordat and the Church treaties are to
be taken into consideration. In the case of those faculties
which are not mentioned by a specific directive in the Concordat
and the Church treaties, as for example, Munich and a few
others, the dissolution may begin at once. This is equally true
of the theological faculties in Austria: Vienna and Graz.”

[_Turning to the defendant._] During the following years public discussion of questions regarding Church policy was almost entirely suppressed, since the Catholic press and, in violation of the Concordat, even Catholic Church papers were to a large extent banned. What did you do against this?

VON PAPEN: It appeared to me necessary, since the Catholic press had been completely muzzled, to do something to continue public discussion of the struggle against tendencies inimical to the Church. I very often talked about this question with Bishop Hudal, an outstanding churchman in Rome, whose book written in 1936 will be submitted to the Tribunal by my counsel. This book contains my severe criticism of the antireligious tendencies and contains also an objective appreciation of the positive social ideas of National Socialism; it is all the more notable because a high authority of the Church was then, in 1936, making yet another attempt to create a synthesis between Christian ideas and the healthy doctrines of National Socialism.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: In what way do you consider the book of importance with regard to the charge brought by the Prosecution?

VON PAPEN: I consider it to be relevant for the following reason: The Prosecution makes its task very easy: In view of the criminal end of National Socialism, it shifts all blame to the initial years of development and brands as criminals all those who, out of pure motives, attempted to give the Movement a constructive and creative character. But here in this book of 1936 a churchman of high rank lifts his voice in an attempt, made on his own initiative, to bring about an improvement of conditions. Today we know that all such attempts failed and that a world crumbled in ruins. But is it right, on that account, to accuse millions of people of crimes because they tried to attain something good in those days?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer to extracts from Bishop Hudal’s book, contained in Document 36, Page 116, and ask that judicial notice be taken of that document. With reference to the subject which the witness has just mentioned, the attitude of high-ranking churchmen to the question of a possible synthesis of ideas, I refer to Document Number 50, Page 135, which is an appeal made by Cardinal Innitzer on behalf and at the request of the Austrian bishops.

Witness, as you have said, Bishop Hudal aimed at a change in Hitler’s ways along the lines proposed in his book. What was Hitler’s reaction to the book?

VON PAPEN: At first Hitler was, I thought, very much impressed by this book; but then the anti-Christian forces among his advisers gained the upper hand once more and convinced him that it would be dangerous in the extreme to allow such a book to appear in Germany. The book had been printed in Austria, and therefore a permit for its publication in Germany was required. All I could obtain was permission to print 2,000 copies, which Hitler wanted to distribute among leading Party members for a study of the problem.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did you think that the foreign policy of the Reich was being pursued on the principles laid down when the Government was formed?

VON PAPEN: Yes. While I was a member of the Cabinet it was certainly conducted on the agreed principles. I might mention the Pact of Friendship with Poland, which was concluded at that time and which was an important step towards peace. Hitler concluded this treaty although, on account of the problem of the Corridor, it was most unpopular. I might also mention the Four Power Pact concluded in the summer of 1933, which affirmed the Locarno Treaty and the Kellogg Pact. I mention also the visit in January 1934 of Mr. Eden, to whom we submitted proposals for the demilitarization of the SA and the SS. Thus we tried to remove the discriminations against Germany by peaceful means. In my opinion, the great powers made a disastrous mistake by not showing understanding and assisting Germany during that phase and thus checking radical tendencies.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: On 14 October 1933 Germany left the Disarmament Conference. Was this a departure from the previous policy which you have just discussed?

VON PAPEN: The withdrawal from the Disarmament Conference was not in any way intended to be a departure from our political principles, but it took place because the equality of which we had been definitely assured on 11 December 1932 was then revoked.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, would you tell me, is the defendant saying that the principles adopted in 1933 were contained in any document or not?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: The proclamation of the Reich Government of 1 February 1933 contains the principles of the policy of the new Cabinet. These principles are supplemented in the statement of the Reich Government dated 23 March 1933, a statement which deals with the Enabling Act.

THE PRESIDENT: Could you give me the reference to the first document that you mentioned?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I shall give it to you after the recess, Mr. President.

[_Turning to the defendant._] What were the reasons for, and what was the attitude regarding Germany’s withdrawal from the League of Nations?

VON PAPEN: The withdrawal from the League of Nations was a question on which there could be many differences of opinion. I myself was in favor of remaining in the League of Nations; and I remember that on the day before Hitler decided on this step, I myself traveled to Munich in an effort to persuade him to remain a member of the League. I was of the opinion that we would have gained much by remaining in the League, where we had many good connections dating even from the time of Stresemann. Nevertheless, if we left the League it was perhaps a tactical question insofar as we might then hope that direct negotiations with the major powers would be more promising. Besides, Herr Von Neurath’s discussion with Ambassador Bullitt, which is Document L-150, shows—Herr Von Neurath says in that document that Germany had proposed a reorganized League of Nations, which she would rejoin.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer to Lersner’s interrogatory, Document 93. In question Number 5, the witness speaks of Von Papen’s journey to Munich; this is Page 213, Document 93.

Mr. President, I come now to a rather more lengthy question; may I ask therefore whether this would be a suitable moment for a recess?

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn at this time.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Before the recess, I was questioned about the documents on the Governmental Proclamations of 1 March 1933 and of 23 March 1933. Excerpts from the Governmental Proclamation of 1 March 1933 are contained in Document Papen-12, Page 53. This is only a short extract. I shall submit the proclamation in its entirety later.

The Proclamation of 23 March 1933, in Document Papen-12, Pages 56 to 58, has also been submitted in extract form. This proclamation has already been submitted in full under USA-568.

[_Turning to the defendant._] On 2 November 1933, in a speech in Essen, you stated your opinion in connection with the forthcoming plebiscite on the withdrawal from the League of Nations, and you approved the Government’s policy. The Prosecution has drawn conclusions from this speech which are unfavorable to you.

What reasons caused you to make that speech at that time?

VON PAPEN: Our withdrawal from the League of Nations was an exceptionally important decision of foreign policy. We wished to emphasize to the world that this withdrawal was not to be construed as a change in our methods of foreign policy. Therefore, Hindenburg and Hitler in free appeals emphasized that the German people should decide by means of a plebiscite the question of whether a withdrawal from the League of Nations would be in the exclusive interests of peace and our equality of rights.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to refer to Document Papen-60, Page 167, and Documents Papen-61 and Papen-62, on Pages 147 to 152 of the document book. These are the statements made by Hitler, by the Reich Government, and by Hindenburg. The purport of all these proclamations: Only a change in method, not a change in our attitude toward affairs.

[_Turning to the defendant._] At that time you were Reich Commissioner for the return of the Saar. What policy did you follow in connection with the Saar question?

VON PAPEN: As far as the Saar question was concerned, I always worked on the basis of a friendly understanding with France, and with a view to finding a solution for the Saar problem without recourse to a plebiscite. Our reasons for not wanting this plebiscite were not in any way selfish, for the plebiscite was at all times certain to be in favor of Germany. My proposal was rather a sacrifice willingly made in the interest of understanding, and at the same time I proposed that France should receive compensation to the amount of 900 million francs for the return of the Saar mines. And I should like to repeat that even after our withdrawal from the League of Nations, my commissioner for Saar questions, Freiherr von Lersner, always negotiated with the League of Nations organs about the Saar on the principle of a friendly settlement of the Saar. In the summer of 1934 my commissioner negotiated with the French Foreign Minister M. Barthou on this question.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to refer to Document Papen-59, Page 145. This document contains the published comments of the witness with regard to the Saar problem. Freiherr von Lersner in his interrogatory (Document Papen-93, Page 212) in reply to Question 3 defined his attitude on this question of the Saar.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Were there any signs that after leaving the League of Nations this generally peaceful policy was just a policy of expediency and that a policy of aggression was planned for the more remote future?

VON PAPEN: Not at all. Leaving the League of Nations was for us simply a change in method. And at that time we were conducting direct negotiations with the major powers. The fact that we were pursuing a policy of peace was something I emphasized in many public statements. And in this connection I should like to refer to Document Papen-56, which will be submitted by my counsel.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document Papen-56, Page 44, contains a speech made by the witness at Kottbus on 21 January 1934. I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of this document.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Did you know of any rearmament measure which might have led to the expectation of an aggressive policy in the future?

VON PAPEN: It seems to me that the proceedings so far conducted before this Tribunal have shown clearly that the actual rearmament did not begin until much later. If Hitler, in fact, did take steps to rearm in 1933 or 1934, then he discussed these measures personally with the Defense Minister and the Air Minister. In any event I was never concerned with such measures. Apart from that, it has already been ascertained here that this much-talked-of Reich Defense Committee in 1933 and 1934 was purely a committee of experts under the direction of a lieutenant colonel.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: A short time ago you mentioned the safeguards adopted when the Hitler Government was formed, in order to minimize the influence of the Party. How did Hitler’s position and the influence of the NSDAP develop in the course of the year 1933 and at the beginning of 1934?

VON PAPEN: A confidential relationship gradually developed between Hitler and Hindenburg.