Chapter XXI: Book 11: , Page 26 of the German book. You remember this is the report (1)

which you referred to, and you said:

“For the method to be employed (Marschroute) I recommend on the
tactical side continued and patient psychological treatment,
with slowly intensified pressure directed at changing the
regime.”

You told the Tribunal that that meant you wanted a change in the officials of the Ministry of the Interior. I am not going to trouble about a statement like that, but just go on for a moment:

“The conference on economic relations proposed for the end of
October will be a very useful tool for the realization of some
of our projects.

“In discussion both with Government officials and with leaders
of the illegal Party (Leopold and Schattenfroh) who take their
stand entirely on the Agreement of 11 July, I am trying to
direct the next developments so as to aim at corporative
representation of the Movement in the Fatherland Front.”

Now, it is quite clear, is it not, that you were on 1 September 1936, after the agreement, having discussions with the leaders of the illegal Party, Leopold and Schattenfroh, so may we take it—I don’t want to spend time on it—that throughout your time in Austria you were in close and constant touch with the leaders of the Austrian National Socialist Party?

VON PAPEN: No, Sir David, the conference which you just mentioned refers to and is justified by the July Agreement; I have already explained that to the Court yesterday. In the July Agreement Federal Chancellor Schuschnigg promised that members of the National Opposition would be called upon for co-operation. Consequently it was, of course, my duty to be interested in whether and to what extent the co-operation of such forces was actually sought by Schuschnigg. That was the subject of this talk with the leaders, and I can state expressly that my contact with the Austrian Party, after the July Agreement, was only in this connection.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, I am not going to go into that further. I have referred the Tribunal to two documents, and there are other references which I need not worry about.

I want you to come now to November 1937. Could you fix as carefully and closely as you can the date of your meeting with the Defendant Seyss-Inquart at Garmisch?

VON PAPEN: Yes, I met the Defendant Seyss-Inquart by accident—that is, not by appointment—at the Olympic Winter Games at Garmisch-Partenkirchen in January 1938.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: January 1938. I just want to collate these dates. You had become very friendly with the Foreign Minister Guido Schmidt, who gave evidence here, had you not?

VON PAPEN: I was on very friendly terms with the Foreign Minister, yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, you gave him the “Du,” although you were 20 years his senior; you had given him the “Du” for some time? You had been on intimate relations? Is that right?

VON PAPEN: I do not think that a friendship can be measured by 20 years’ difference in age. I regarded Herr Schmidt, as I have said, as an upright man.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think you will agree with me that it is unusual for an Ambassador to be on terms with a Foreign Minister, especially one 20 years his junior—not his contemporary—on such terms that he used the familiar “Du” to him. Won’t you agree with me that it is a quite unusual form of intimacy between an Ambassador and a Foreign Minister?

VON PAPEN: Sir David, if you had ever been in Austria in your life, you would know that in Austria almost everyone says “Du” to everyone else, and to clear up this incident, may I add the following: On the day of our separation, when I left Austria, I said to Foreign Minister Schmidt, of whom I am very fond, “Dear friend, we have worked together so much, now we can say ‘Du’ to each other.”

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, what I am interested in is this: It was in November 1937 that you and Dr. Guido Schmidt first began to discuss the question of Herr Schuschnigg meeting Hitler, was it not?

VON PAPEN: I believe that I discussed this matter not only with Foreign Minister Schmidt but also with Herr Von Schuschnigg himself at that time. After a discussion between them...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just a moment; will you answer my question? You discussed with Schmidt—you heard Dr. Schmidt give his evidence that the Defendant Göring had told him with great frankness, as the Defendant Göring said he told everyone else and has told this Court, that he was out for the union of Germany and Austria by any means and at all costs. You heard Dr. Schmidt say that Göring had told him that that was his view, and I say, in all fairness, it is perfectly consistent. It is the view he has expressed here and apparently to a lot of other people. Do you remember that Dr. Schmidt said that? You can take that from me.

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We have heard that the Defendant Göring said that, not only to Dr. Schmidt, but to Mussolini and to the High Tribunal, and I think to several other people. Had he never said it to you?

VON PAPEN: No, Sir David. With regard to the Austrian...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know that it was his view?

VON PAPEN: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You didn’t know that was Göring’s view?

VON PAPEN: Please let me say something. Of course, I knew that Göring’s wish was to bring about a union of the two States, and I myself was present at the talk with Mussolini.

Please consider, however, that at that time Herr Göring was not competent to decide foreign policy. The question of what our policy in Austria should be had been agreed upon between Hitler and myself exclusively and I do not remember discussing it with Marshal Göring in the years between 1936 and 1938.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am dealing with November 1937, at the moment, and 3 months later the Defendant Göring was very competent in foreign politics in the Austrian question, as you, who listened to the accounts of his telephone conversations, must know.

I just want you to take the dates as we have got them now. Göring had told Schmidt his views; you and Schmidt were discussing this meeting between Schuschnigg and Hitler. In January you had a political discussion with Dr. Seyss-Inquart at Garmisch.

I am one date out of order. On 11 November, as Mr. Dodd put to Dr. Seyss-Inquart, he had written a letter to Dr. Jury saying, “I don’t think anything will happen this year, but the developments will take place in the spring.” Then, after that letter, he sees you at Garmisch in January, and in February you finally arrange this meeting between Schuschnigg and Hitler.

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Didn’t you know very well that the whole object of the meeting was to get Herr Schuschnigg to agree to the Reich’s wishes, the appointment of Seyss-Inquart, a general political amnesty which would release all the members of the Nazi Party in Austria and put them at the disposal of their leaders, and a declaration of equal rights for the Party? Didn’t you know that the whole object of the meeting was to get Herr Schuschnigg to agree to these terms so that you would have the Austrian National Socialist Party unfettered and free to work for Germany’s interests in Austria?

VON PAPEN: In my talk with Dr. Seyss-Inquart in Garmisch-Partenkirchen we discussed the necessity of making the Austrian Nazi Party independent, that is, under all circumstances removing it from the influence of the Reich, in the form agreed upon in the July Agreement, and with the aim that the way should be paved for a union of our two countries, and that that aim should be pursued from the Austrian side in terms of foreign policy, and not by the Reich.

When I met Seyss-Inquart in Garmisch no mention was ever made of this meeting between Hitler and Schuschnigg. I was at that time not in a position to know whether such a talk would ever take place. That was not decided until 5 February, as you will recall. In other words, we discussed only the perfectly general question of how we could get nearer to our goal.

May I further recall to your memory that Dr. Seyss-Inquart had received an official commission from the Federal Chancellor to investigate all existing possibilities of incorporating the National Opposition, that is, the Austrian National Socialist Party, into Schuschnigg’s political program. That was his official mission, so that after all I had a right to discuss these things with him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Wasn’t Dr. Rainer—the witness that the Tribunal has seen—wasn’t he present at the Garmisch meeting too?

VON PAPEN: That seems to have been the case, Sir David; I do not remember it any more. Seyss-Inquart has told me that it is possible that Dr. Rainer joined us on a walk. I personally do not remember. I did not carry on any political discussion with Rainer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, you have given your explanation as of the turn of the year. I just want to remind you of one other point. You were very well aware of the Von Blomberg and Von Fritsch crisis in the Army, were you not? I don’t want to go into disagreeable details again, because it is not at present before the Tribunal, but you knew that that crisis had arisen?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sure you will see the importance of this. General Von Fritsch had been at the War Academy with you, had he not?

VON PAPEN: Yes, quite right.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: He was an old friend, and you knew, as I think everyone who has mentioned his name in this Court has said, that General Von Fritsch was a man of the highest character and that the sort of charge that was brought against him was one which anyone who knew him would regard with ridicule if it wasn’t so tragic, and they would regard it with contempt? That was your view?

VON PAPEN: Absolutely.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you had a pretty good idea, had you not, apart from the treatment of Field Marshal Von Blomberg, that Von Fritsch had been the subject of a trumped-up charge in order to prevent him becoming head of the Armed Forces? You knew that, didn’t you?

VON PAPEN: In any case, that became clear to me later, when I learned of the circumstances.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, no, that is not the important thing, Defendant, your state of mind on 5 February 1938. You knew by then that the Nazi clique in the Government had brought a framed-up charge against a man whom you regarded as the soul of honor, did you not?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now with that knowledge, on 5 February, after you see Hitler, you tell him about the fact that Schuschnigg may come, and he jumps to it at once. He says, “Go and get Schuschnigg,” doesn’t he? He was quite bored, if I may put it that way, with what you had to say up to that point. As soon as you say there is a chance of a meeting with Schuschnigg, Hitler seizes it like a trout to a May fly, doesn’t he, or rather, like a lion to the kill; that is right, isn’t it?

VON PAPEN: Yes, Sir David. I described to the Court the impression made on me by events in Berlin and by my own dismissal on 4 February. Do you think it is surprising that I now tried, just because I was afraid another course would be adopted, to bring about this long-desired discussion between the two chiefs of state which I hoped would clear up the differences and prevent the adoption of a radical course? I told Foreign Minister Schmidt and Chancellor Schuschnigg that, when I asked them both to take part in a discussion to clear up matters if they could possibly do so.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, Defendant, I am not going to go through the circumstances of the meeting of 12 February, because I went through them with the Defendant Von Ribbentrop and the Court is well aware of them.

I want to ask you this one question, and I do ask you to consider it carefully because the question of your own veracity may depend on it.

Are you now saying that there was no pressure put on Herr Schuschnigg at that interview?

VON PAPEN: Sir David, I never made such a statement—you know that yourself, because it is in my reports; I myself said that pressure was exerted.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I am asking you is this, and please let me make it quite clear because the Court have heard the evidence of your friend Dr. Schmidt and a lot of other evidence. I only want to ask you the one question, and please get it clear.

Do you now, on this day, say that pressure was not put on Chancellor Schuschnigg to make him agree to the terms of 12 February? That is the one question I want to ask you, and I give you the chance of answering. What do you say today? Was or was not pressure put on Herr Schuschnigg?

VON PAPEN: Yes; I never denied it. I do not understand why you ask me. I never denied it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Herr Von Ribbentrop denied it quite strongly, but we won’t go into that.

Now, one other question and then I am finished with Austria.

Did you arrange a meeting between Hitler and Cardinal Innitzer?

VON PAPEN: Yes, I did; and that was...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you arrange that the leaders of the Church and the diplomatic corps, apart from the French and British representatives, should be present at Hitler’s entry into Vienna?

VON PAPEN: As for the leaders of the Church, it is not customary for them to be present at parades, and I certainly did not suggest it. As to the diplomats...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you arrange for the diplomatic corps to be present?

VON PAPEN: It is possible that some of my diplomatic colleagues asked me if they could attend this ceremony, and I said that of course they could attend; why should they not?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I am not going to argue about the way you put it.

My Lord, I have now finished with Austria. I have three very minor matters which I hope will take a short time, but this might be a convenient period in which to recess.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

[_A recess was taken._]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, are the Tribunal to take it that broadly you were against the anti-Semitic movement and propaganda?

VON PAPEN: On the contrary, it was my aim and my desire, and it constituted the entire program of my work, to contribute as far as possible to a union between the two countries, because that was the great wish of the German nation.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not think you can have understood my question. Let me repeat it. I am now coming to the Jews.

VON PAPEN: Oh, the Jews?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. Now, let me repeat it again. Are the Tribunal to take it that broadly you were against anti-Semitic action and propaganda?

VON PAPEN: Yes; I have already told the High Tribunal just what my attitude in principle was toward the racial question and toward the question of the elimination of foreign influence in certain cultural aspects of public life. These are two entirely different questions, however.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, I appreciate that. Now, will you look at Document 3319-PS, which is Exhibit GB-287?

My Lord, it begins at Page 48 of Document Book 11a. It is on Pages 44 and 45 of the German book.

The part I want you to refer to is on Pages 58 and 59. This, Defendant, is from a confidential report of the work session of the consultants on Jewish questions of the German missions in Europe, on 3 and 4 April 1944. I want you just to look at Page 44, I think, of the German version, Page 58 of the English, at the contribution to this discussion of a certain Herr Posemann, from Turkey. Was he from your staff? If you would not mind, just say “yes” or “no,” because it must go to a short end...

VON PAPEN: May I tell you just who Herr Posemann was?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I said, if you would tell me, was he a member of the Embassy staff, and if not, what was he; that is what I want to know.

VON PAPEN: No; certainly not. Herr Posemann was a German bookseller who had settled in Ankara. He was certainly not a member of my Embassy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, at any rate, he was a consultant of the German Foreign Office for this discussion. Now, just listen to what he says:

“Early last year the Turkish Government struck a blow at Jewry
in connection with an attempt to solve the minorities problem.
Very drastic measures were taken to carry out this action.
Suspicions on the part of Allied circles that purely anti-Jewish
measures were concerned were countered by Turkey with references
to simultaneous measures taken against the minorities. At any
rate, Turkey abandoned further measures to find a solution of
the minorities problem and therewith of the Jewish problem. For
this reason it is impossible to continue to practice anti-Jewish
propaganda under our direction at the present moment, as it is
undesirable and would be a burden on Turkey’s present foreign
policy. There are no anti-Jewish publications in Turkey, apart
from caricatures and comic books about Jews. The first signs of
realization of the extent of international Jewish domination are
evident in the translation of the _Protocol of the Elders of
Zion_ and of Ford’s book, _The International Jew_. The sale and
distribution of these brochures have been promoted by the
Embassy. For the time being, work is possible only within this
narrow range since, as was already emphasized, an anti-Jewish
propaganda obviously inspired by Germany might cause us
unfavorable political complications.”

Now, do you believe in the _Protocol of the Elders of Zion_? Do you believe it is a correct and authentic work?

VON PAPEN: Not at all, no.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then why was the marketing of these brochures being promoted by the Embassy?

VON PAPEN: Perhaps I may give the Tribunal a very brief explanation on the whole connection of this meeting. The meeting had been called by the Foreign Office, and was to be attended by experts from the embassies and legations who had been specifically employed to deal with the Jewish problem. In my Embassy there was no such expert, as I always refused to have one. For this reason the Party had of its own accord instructed the bookseller Herr Posemann to deal with this problem, and had delegated him to attend this conference.

If Herr Posemann here sets forth that the Embassy circulated the propaganda brochures which are mentioned here, then he is gravely mistaken. Firstly, the Turkish Government would never have tolerated the circulation of such material, and secondly, you, Sir David, can convince yourself today that all these brochures are still lying in the basement of my Embassy at Ankara.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that this statement made at the Foreign Office meeting, you say, is wrong?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You say that you had nothing to do with that; that is your answer? I want to ask you one or two things about the Catholic Church. You remember the Fulda Declaration of the Bishops?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is right, is it not? That was made and based on an assurance which Hitler gave to the Church of his good intentions, on 23 March 1933? Do you remember Hitler’s making a statement like that?

VON PAPEN: Not only on the 23d, but also in the Government declaration Hitler expressly stated his view that every policy must be based on both the Christian denominations.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, that in turn was the result, at least in part, of a statement of yours at a Cabinet meeting on 15 March 1933, when you stressed the importance of incorporating political Catholicism into the new State; that is a correct and factual statement, is it not? That is the way the thing works out?

VON PAPEN: Completely, Sir David.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes.

VON PAPEN: I made every effort to induce Hitler to establish this Christian basis of his policy firmly by means of solemn engagements; and I think I have already explained to the High Tribunal that I really made every effort to carry through this program.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now let me ask you to look once again at Document 11, Page 96; Page 78 of the German version, which is Document 2248-PS. It is your report to Hitler of 27 July 1935. Now in that report you use these words: “....the clever hand which eliminates political Catholicism without touching the Christian foundations of Germany....”

My Lord, it is on Page 99 of the English text and it is Page 86 of the German text. My Lord, it is the first paragraph, Page 99:

“Cultural problems have a special significance. The way in which
Germany deals with her political and religious difficulties, the
clever hand which eliminates political Catholicism without
weakening the Christian foundations of Germany will not only
have a decisive reaction on England or Catholic Poland. We may
rather say that the solution of the German-Austrian question
stands or falls with it.”

Now, what I want you to bear in mind: This is your account to Hitler in July 1935, over 2 years after the Concordat: “....the clever hand which eliminates political Catholicism without touching the Christian foundations of Germany....” Now your counsel quoted one passage of His Holiness the Pope’s allocution, and I would just like you to look and tell the Tribunal whether you agree with the next passage, which occurs after the bit quoted by Dr. Kubuschok.

My Lord, this is a new document—no, My Lord, I am sorry. It is an old exhibit. It is Document 3268-PS, which is Exhibit USA-356. Your Lordship remembers that Dr. Kubuschok quoted a portion, in his document book, of the Pope’s allocution. My Lord, I have some extra copies.

Now after the bit which Dr. Kubuschok quoted as to the Concordat having prevented worse evils, His Holiness goes on to say:

“The struggle against the Church did, in fact, become more and
more embittered: the disbanding of Catholic organizations; the
progressive suppression of the flourishing Catholic schools,
both public and private; the enforced weaning of youth from
family and Church; the pressure brought to bear on the
conscience of the citizens, and especially of civil servants;
the systematic defamation, by means of clever, closely organized
propaganda, of the Church, the clergy, the faithful, and of the
Church’s institutions, teaching, and history; the closing,
disbanding, and confiscation of religious houses and other
ecclesiastical institutions; the complete suppression of the
Catholic press and publishing houses.”

Do you agree with His Holiness that that is a correct description of the action of the German Reich against the Catholic Church?

VON PAPEN: Completely.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I would just like you also to look at the “Mit Brennender Sorge,” which is Document 3280-PS.

Your Lordship will find it at Page 40 of Document Book 11—I am sorry, My Lord, it is Page 47. I said 40. It is 40 of the German text.

Now, if you notice, that is quite early, on 14 March 1937, 4 years after the Concordat, and he says in the second sentence at the beginning:

“It discloses intrigues which from the first had no other aim
than a war of extermination. In the furrows in which we had
labored to sow the seeds of true peace, others—like the enemy
in Holy Scripture—sowed the tares of suspicion, discord,
hatred, calumny, of secret and open basic hostility to Christ
and His Church, fed from a thousand different sources and
employing every available means. They, and they only, along with
their silent or vocal protectors are responsible for the fact
that on the horizon of Germany there is now to be seen, not the
rainbow of peace, but the threatening stormcloud of destructive
religious wars.”

Now, Defendant, what I want you to tell the Tribunal—do you agree with that?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If you agree with these statements of the head of the Church, how could you possibly write to Hitler, 2 years after the Concordat, in July 1935, that he had “eliminated political Catholicism without touching the Christian foundations of Germany”? It was absolutely wrong, wasn’t it, that Hitler and the Nazis had not touched the Christian foundations of Germany? They had uprooted them and were in process of destroying them?

VON PAPEN: Sir David, you are confusing two completely different things, political Catholicism...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, I don’t want to interrupt you, but I have made that point quite clear. The point I am putting to you is not the elimination of political Catholicism. I am not, for the moment, dealing with the relation between you and Monsignor Kaas. What I am dealing with is your other statement, that it had been done without touching the Christian foundations of Germany. What I am putting to you is what His Holiness is saying, that the Christian foundations of Germany were being destroyed. I don’t mind, for the moment, about the views that Monsignor Kaas had of you or you had of Monsignor Kaas. I know what they are.

VON PAPEN: Let me explain these things to you. The struggle against the Church and its institutions, against which His Holiness the Pope inveighs in his encyclicals in the years 1937 and 1945, and in which he recognized the intensification of the situation obtaining during the war—all of these things were an attack on the Christian foundations of Germany, an attack which I always condemned most strongly. But this has no connection at all with the elimination of so-called political Catholicism for which I hoped and which I demanded. These are two completely different things. Perhaps it is hard for you to understand, since you are not familiar with circumstances in Germany.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Please believe, Defendant, that I have spent a great deal of time in pursuing the troubles between you and Monsignor Kaas. I am not going to bring them out before the Tribunal because they are not important. I appreciate and agree—not as well as you do, but I appreciate the position of political Catholicism and I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about your statement. Why did you say to Hitler that he had not touched the Christian foundations of Germany? That is what I want to know. You must have known in 1935 that that wasn’t true?

VON PAPEN: But, Sir David, that is a complete distortion of the contents of this report. I am telling Hitler that the Christian foundations of Germany must not be weakened and that may still be read in the report today: “Political Catholicism must be eliminated without weakening the Christian foundations of Germany.”

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, you appreciate how it begins. You say “....that a clever hand which eliminates it without touching....” Just let me remind you: Didn’t you say, in your interrogation, that your trouble—part of your trouble in the summer of 1934, before you made the Marburg speech, was due to the nonfulfillment of the Concordat, that after it had been signed, with the consent of Hitler, “....he treated it just as a scrap of paper and I couldn’t do anything”? Then there was the persecution of the Churches and the Jews at the same time. That was late in 1933 and in 1934. Is that your view in 1934, “....that there had not only been treating of the Concordat as a scrap of paper but persecution of both the Churches and the Jews”?

VON PAPEN: I do not know which document you are quoting from, Sir David.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: This is your interrogation on the morning of 19 September 1945.

VON PAPEN: Yes, of course. When I delivered the Marburg speech, I believed that the State was violating all these things; otherwise, I would not have made the speech. But in this speech, Sir David, I again expressly emphasized the fact that no European occidental state can exist without a Christian foundation, and that by disregarding our Christian basis we would cut ourselves off from the group of Christian peoples and from our mission in Europe. I could scarcely say it more clearly than that. And perhaps I can tell you something else on the subject of political Catholicism. You have...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do as you want to. I especially want to avoid burdening the Tribunal with the exchanges between you and Monsignor Kaas, because both of you used harsh language and it might not sound very good if I repeated it now. If you want to go into it, do, but don’t open it up unless you must.

VON PAPEN: I regard this accusation which you are making against me as one of the most tremendous for it violates my whole conception.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, you remember you told the Tribunal just before the adjournment that you had introduced Cardinal Innitzer to Hitler when you went into Austria. You remember that after the statement to which Dr. Kubuschok has referred, that Cardinal Innitzer in a broadcast from Rome made it clear that he was only accepting the Nazi rule of Austria on certain conditions. Do you remember that?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I would just like to see what happened to Cardinal Innitzer.

This is a new document, My Lord, D-903, which becomes GB-508. My Lord, this is a statement in the form of an affidavit from a priest, Dr. Weihbacher, which I only got from Vienna on 7 June.

You will see that this priest—well, at any rate I take it he is a priest; he is the archbishop’s secretary in the cathedral chapter. Let’s just look at it.

“On 8 October 1938”—that is a little over 6 months after you
had arranged for Cardinal Innitzer to meet Hitler—“a serious
attack was made by youthful demonstrators on the archbishop’s
palace in Vienna. I was present during the attack and can
therefore describe it from my own experience.”

Then he describes how they smashed window panes, broke in the gate. The priests took the archbishop into an inner room and hid him there. They took the cardinal to safety in the personalia archive and locked the iron door behind him, and:

“....then we two priests, seeing ourselves opposed by a crowd of
invaders, personally took up a stand at the entrance to the
cardinal’s house chapel in order to prevent any destruction from
being wrought there at least.”

My Lord, this is about 10 lines from the foot of the page.

“Shortly after we had reached the chapel, the invaders stormed
into the cardinal’s rooms adjoining the chapel. As soon as they
reached the door we warded them off. Pieces of wood came flying
into the chapel; I received a push that knocked me over; but we
managed to prevent them from entering the chapel. The
demonstrators were youths aged from 14 to 25 and numbering about
a hundred. After we had warded off the first troop, we opened up
the Tabernacle and consumed the consecrated wafers so as to
prevent the Most Holy from being desecrated. But new invaders
were already storming in; and we warded them off. In the
meantime an indescribable orgy of destruction was going on in
the remaining rooms among all the fittings. With the brass rods
holding the carpet in place on the staircase, the youths
destroyed tables and chairs, candelabras and valuable paintings,
and in particular all the crucifixes.”

Then it describes the plate-glass doors and so on, and there was an alarm when the cardinal was discovered. This priest himself was dragged from the chapel by about six people and dragged across the anteroom to the window with shouts of “We’ll throw the dog out of the window.”

And then, eventually, the police came, and you will notice their idea of what was proper reparation.

“Then a lieutenant colonel of police arrived and apologized. He
was followed by a representative of the Gestapo who expressed
his regret that the police had not been very active in their
intervention.

“Meanwhile other demonstrators attacked the cathedral rector’s
house at 3 Stephansplatz where they threw the cathedral curate
Krawarik out of the window into the yard. This priest lay in
hospital until February with both thighs fractured.”

Now I ask you to look at the penultimate paragraph:

“That the demonstration was not the result of youthful
wantonness or embitterment, but a well-laid plan known to
official quarters, is obvious from the speech of Gauleiter
Bürckel who, on 13 October on the Heldenplatz, in the basest
possible manner represented the cardinal as guilty.”

Now, Herr Von Papen, you had a great responsibility in relation to Cardinal Innitzer, had you not? You had introduced him to Hitler. You must have learned from the ramifications and communications of the Catholic Church of this attack on the cardinal’s house 6 months after the Anschluss, did you not? You must have learned of this.

VON PAPEN: I heard about it later, of course.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What protest did you make when you heard of this disgraceful attack on the principles of the Church, the throwing of the cathedral curate out of the window and breaking both his thighs, the desecration of the chapel, the breaking of crucifixes? What protest did you make about it?

VON PAPEN: I should like to remind you, Sir David, that I had resigned from office more than 6 months before and no longer had anything whatsoever to do with these matters. Naturally the details of the incident were in the highest degree regrettable and, indeed, amounted to criminal attacks; but the details did not appear in the German press, so that I am probably seeing them for the first time in this form here. But let me add...

THE PRESIDENT: But, Defendant, you haven’t answered the question. The question was: What complaint did you make about it?

VON PAPEN: I made no protest, for I was no longer in an official position at the time. I was a private citizen, and all I learned officially about these things was what the German papers were allowed to publish.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Oh, Defendant, surely you have told us that you were one of the leading Catholic laymen in Germany. You are not going to tell the Tribunal that in the Catholic Church it wasn’t known to every bishop in Germany and probably to every parish priest that this abominable and sacrilegious insult had been offered to a prince of the Church in his own house in Vienna. Surely it would permeate through the Church in a few days.

VON PAPEN: That is quite possible, Sir David; but would you expect me, a private citizen, to do anything? What could I do? The Tribunal did not take notice of the discussion which I brought about between Cardinal Innitzer and Hitler. You mentioned that for the first time here today.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is exactly why I am putting this incident to you, that you were responsible for bringing about the meeting between Cardinal Innitzer and Hitler in March of 1938. When His Eminence is attacked in October, I should have thought—it is not for me to express my thoughts—that you might have taken the trouble to protest to Hitler, and all that you do is to take another job under Hitler within 6 months, in April 1936.

What I am asking you is why you didn’t make a protest. You could have written to Hitler. The Defendant Göring has expressed his great religious interests. A number of the other defendants have said that they had great religious sympathies. Why couldn’t you have got in touch with them?

VON PAPEN: Because in autumn 1938 I retired from political life; I was living in the country and was no longer taking any active interest in politics. But perhaps I may say just why I was responsible for promoting a meeting with Cardinal Innitzer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, that is not the point that I am interested in at the moment, the meeting on 15 March. I am interested in the fact that this took place, that you knew of it, and made no protest.

Now I am going to come to another point. Dr. Kubuschok can raise it later on, if he wants.

Defendant, you have heard a number of your codefendants giving evidence and saying that they didn’t know of the terrible repressive measures that were taking place in Germany. You knew very well about these repressive measures, did you not? You knew about the action of the Gestapo, the concentration camps, and later you knew about the elimination of the Jews, did you not?

VON PAPEN: I only knew this much, that in the years 1933 and 1934 political opponents were interned in the concentration camps. I very frequently protested against the methods used in concentration camps. In various cases I liberated people from these camps; but at that time I was quite unaware that murders had even been committed in them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, just let me take that up. It is good to get down to a concrete instance.

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You remember that at the beginning of 1935 your secretary, Herr Von Tschirschsky, was ordered to return from Vienna to Berlin for examination by the Gestapo. Do you remember that?

VON PAPEN: Yes, indeed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you remember that he refused to go and he sent you a detailed report of his reasons for not going? Do you remember that?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just let us look at that together very shortly.

My Lord, that is Document D-685, which would become Exhibit GB-509; Your Lordship will find it at Page 87 of Document Book 11, and it is at Page 60 of the German version.

Now, at Page 87 there is Herr Von Tschirschsky’s own letter to you, in which he says, at the end of the second paragraph: “I am not in a position ... to comply with the Gestapo demand to report to Berlin for interrogation.”

And then he says that—to quote his own words—that he has been influenced only by the “human, understandable desire to live” and then he sends a report, he encloses a report, to you of what had happened to him on 30 June which got him into the bad books of the Gestapo.

Do you remember that?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And summarizing the beginning of it, which would be almost humorous if it did not show such a dreadful state of affairs, your secretary, Herr Von Tschirschsky, was arrested simultaneously by two competing groups of Reich policemen, I think the Criminal Police and the Gestapo, and there was a severe danger of Herr Von Tschirschsky and some of the police being shot before they could decide who was to take him into custody. But I want you to come to when he is taken into custody.

My Lord, it is at Page 89, and it is at the end of Page 65 of the German version, Defendant.

You see, this is after, I think, the Gestapo had won the internecine struggle and it got possession of the body of Herr Von Tschirschsky, and then he says, just toward the end—My Lord, it is the middle of Page 89.

He is told the other police are following the Gestapo and he says:

“....we went to the Gestapo building in the Prinz
Albrecht-Strasse and through a courtyard to a back entrance.
There was another exchange of words between the two groups of
Criminal Police. I again joined in this debate and suggested as
a way of clearing up the misunderstanding that a man from each
of the groups should see some higher authority in the building
and let him decide what should be done. There would still be
three Criminal Police officials and four SS men available to
guard me and the other two gentlemen. This course was adopted;
and eventually they came back and explained that the
misunderstanding was now cleared up and we could be taken away.
Whereupon we were taken by three SS men, not accompanied by the
Criminal Police officials, on a lengthy trip through the
building into the basement. There we were handed over without
comment and were ordered by the SS men on duty there to go and
sit on a bench against the wall, in the passage. We were then
forbidden to talk to each other. I spent a few hours like this
sitting on the bench. It would make too long a story to give
further details of the events which took place during this time.
I will therefore restrict myself to the case of the shooting of
a well-known personality who was publicly stated to have
committed suicide.

“The person in question was brought in under the escort of three
SS men and led past us into a cell running parallel to our
corridor. The leader of the detachment was an SS
Hauptsturmführer, short, dark, and carrying an Army pistol in
his hand. I heard the command ‘Guard the door!’ The door leading
from our corridor into the other one was shut. Five shots were
fired and immediately after the shots the Hauptsturmführer came
out of the door with the still smoking pistol in his hand,
muttering under his breath, ‘That swine is settled.’ Feverish
excitement reigned all around; cries and shrieks of terror were
heard from the cells. One of the SS men on duty, a comparative
youngster, was so excited that he apparently lost all
consciousness of the entire situation and informed me,
illustrating his remarks with his fingers, that the person
concerned had been liquidated by means of three shots in the
temple and two in the back of the head.”

You had a pretty good idea of SS and Gestapo methods after Herr Von Tschirschsky had given you that report, hadn’t you?

VON PAPEN: Yes, and you can also see that this report...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Tell us, before we leave that elevating extract which I have just read, who was the well-known person who was supposed to have committed suicide and who was shot with three shots in the temple and two in the back of the head. Who was it?

VON PAPEN: I cannot tell you. I do not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you mean to say that Herr Von Tschirschsky was on your staff for several months afterwards and he never told you who this was?

VON PAPEN: I do not recall, Sir David, that he discussed this matter with me; and in any case I may have forgotten it. In any event one of the personalities who died on 30 June.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just pause. You say you might have forgotten. Do you mean that dreadful occurrences like this were so familiar to you that you cannot remember the account of the actual shooting of a supposed suicide who was a prominent person?

Have another think. Cannot you tell the Tribunal who this unfortunate man was?

VON PAPEN: If I remembered that, I would willingly tell you. I have no reason to conceal the information.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, just let the Tribunal see how you passed this on to Hitler. You believed, did you not, that Herr Von Tschirschsky was telling the truth? You said so. You believed he was telling the truth, didn’t you?

VON PAPEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, will you look at page...

My Lord, it is Page 86 of the English version; and, Defendant, it is 58 of the German book, Page 58.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, are you going to investigate the facts as to what happened to the man who made this report?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, yes, I will clear that up, I am so sorry.

Defendant, just before we come to what happened when he made the report, Herr Von Tschirschsky himself was—I think he went to a concentration camp and had his head shaved and then eventually after a certain period he was released and rejoined your service and was in your service up until February of 1935. Is not that so, Defendant?

VON PAPEN: Yes, that is quite correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sorry, My Lord. That takes up the story until we come to February 1935. He is then asked to report to the Gestapo and then this correspondence takes place.

Now, you see that in your letter to Hitler of 5 February, which is Document D-684, Exhibit GB-510, you say:

“As already reported yesterday by telegram, I have passed on to
Herr Von Tschirschsky the order of 2d instant, repeating the
demand that he appear on the date fixed by the Gestapo, 5
February.

“He then announced to me officially that he would not comply
with this order as he was convinced that he would be killed in
one way or another. He will give all his reasons for this
refusal in a report which I will submit as soon as I receive it.

“Yesterday I finally relieved Herr Von Tschirschsky, whom I had
already suspended for the duration of the proceedings, of his
post. It goes without saying that I shall break off all
connections of an official nature as soon as the files and such
have been handed over tomorrow.”

Then you say you telegraphed the Defendant Von Neurath and you had given Herr Von Tschirschsky sick leave. Then just look at the last paragraph.

“After I had repeatedly asked that Herr Von Tschirschsky be
given a chance to clear himself before a regular judge of the
charges laid against him, I am naturally exceedingly sorry that
the affair is now ending thus. I left nothing undone to induce
Herr Von Tschirschsky to take the course indicated to him of
submitting to interrogation by the Gestapo.”

Defendant, is that right, that you left nothing undone to get this man in your staff sent to his death to be murdered by the Gestapo?

VON PAPEN: I think it would be fair, Sir David, to call the attention of the High Tribunal to the other letters which show that I asked Hitler not only once, but repeatedly, to have the matter of Tschirschsky investigated by means of a regular trial.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is quite true and it was referred to in that letter.

VON PAPEN: Yes, of course, but please let me finish...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Quite true.

VON PAPEN: When this proposal was turned down and the Führer would not agree to have a regular trial, he, Hitler, let me know that he would use his personal influence, and that he would assume personal responsibility that nothing would happen to Herr Von Tschirschsky if he was investigated by the Gestapo. You will also find that in these letters. The Führer promised him exceptional immunity if he would allow himself to be interrogated by the Gestapo. Therefore, after the suggestion for a regular trial had been turned down and Hitler had promised that nothing would happen to Herr Von Tschirschsky, I asked Herr Von Tschirschsky to submit to the investigation, as the charges made against him had to be cleared up somehow. But I believe...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Would you turn back to your letter of 31 January, which you will find...

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I think you should read the whole of this letter which you have just been on, 5 February, at some stage.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I will. My Lord, I am so sorry. My Lord, I do not want to omit anything; but I am, of course, trying to shorten the matter; but I will read anything Your Lordship wants.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal ought to be in possession of the whole letter. You stopped at the word “courier,” in the middle, with reference to reporting.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord. With reference to reporting his dismissal to the Austrian Government:

“With regard to reporting his dismissal to the Austrian
Government, I am afraid that if I dismiss him abruptly tomorrow,
the matter will become the theme of public discussion. I think
this scandal should be avoided and I have therefore given Herr
Von Tschirschsky sick leave in the meantime, as far as the
public is concerned. I shall report his dismissal later.

“I shall return to the Tschirschsky affair and its connections
with other current Gestapo questions in Vienna later, in a
detailed report.”

My Lord, I am grateful.

THE PRESIDENT: You left off after the word “Gestapo” in the next paragraph.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, I will read the whole thing again.

“After I had repeatedly asked....”

THE PRESIDENT: No, you read that down to “Gestapo,” but you did not go on with the rest.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: “But if he persists in his resolve to
avoid this interrogation, even though he knows that this means
social and material ruin for himself and his family, and as he
has given me his word that he will do nothing while an _émigré_
which would be harmful to the Führer and to the country, I can
only add my wish that everything should be avoided which could
turn this affair into an open scandal.”

I am grateful, My Lord.

Now, Defendant, you had already said to Hitler on 31 January, which was 5 days before that—Page 84, My Lord, and the foot of Page 55 and the beginning of 56 of the German book:

“Herr Von Tschirschsky, whom I have, incidentally, for the time
being relieved of his duties, has now learned from several
sources which he—and I myself as well, unfortunately—regards
as authentic, that some persons belonging to the Gestapo have
for some considerable time been planning to liquidate him.”

My Lord, that will be Document D-683, Exhibit GB-511.

You believed that it was authentic on 31 January that the Gestapo wished to neutralize him. On 5 February, in the part that the Tribunal just asked me to read, you say it will be the ruin of his social and material position for himself and his family, but if the thing is kept quiet, your wish is that everything be done to avoid a scandal.

Now, Defendant...

VON PAPEN: My wish was first of all that everything possible should be done to have the matter cleared by means of a public trial.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was your first wish, but you very soon gave that up.

VON PAPEN: Just a moment, please. After Hitler had refused to agree to my wish, and after he had determined that Von Tschirschsky would enjoy the personal protection of Hitler during his investigation by the Gestapo—that is, if the head of the State says “I will be responsible for the fact that nothing will happen to Herr Von Tschirschsky!” then you will allow that naturally the only course of action open to me is to say to Herr Von Tschirschsky, “Take this course and let them interrogate you; for after all you have to clear yourself of the suspicion resting on you.”

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, let me remind you that there is not a word in your letter of 5 February about any promise from Hitler to give an indemnity to Herr Von Tschirschsky. All that you are saying is that he will disappear into disgrace. There is nothing in any other letter either.

VON PAPEN: Yes. It is in one of Tschirschsky’s reports. I cannot find it at the moment.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, if you can find anything about an indemnity, I can only tell you that I have not been able to find it in any of your letters.

VON PAPEN: But it is there.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps the defendant could look for this document at the recess, at 1 o’clock.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, very well. My Lord, if there is such a document, I am very sorry; I don’t know about it.

Yes, My Lord; I am sorry. I think I have got the reference. On Page 91, My Lord. It is not in the defendant’s letter, but there is a reference in Herr Von Tschirschsky’s report. On Page 91, My Lord. Page 69. It says:

“In conclusion—the reason why I feel myself under no obligation
either to appear before the Gestapo or to return to the Reich at
all, in spite of the extraordinary protection promised me by the
Führer and Reich Chancellor—I make the following declaration: