Chapter II: Front Matter (2)

DR. FLÄCHSNER: You mentioned yesterday the Organization Todt. Do you know to what extent this Organization Todt in Holland used Dutch construction firms for construction work there on the Atlantic Wall and to what extent this construction was carried out by Dutch construction firms?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that the bulk of construction work in Holland, Northern France, and Belgium was done by indigenous construction firms. This is definitely true of Holland; and Dutch construction firms also carried out work in Belgium and in Northern France. These firms brought their workers along with them. In this manner some 35,000 to 40,000 Dutch workers who were not drafted by compulsion were working in Belgium and Northern France in the middle of 1942.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Can you tell us what results this procedure had generally on the recruitment of native labor?

SEYSS-INQUART: The indigenous workers naturally preferred to go into the protected industries or the firms of the Organization Todt, for there they were at least more certain of not being transported to the Reich. And in addition, while they were with the Organization Todt they received special food rations.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Witness, when in August or September 1944, because of enemy bombings on the distribution system, production in Holland was hampered or even paralyzed, what measures were taken in order to protect the unemployed workers of the protected industries?

SEYSS-INQUART: Three courses were open to us: First of all, to bring the workers into the Reich; secondly, to dismiss these workers and give them unemployment relief; and, thirdly, to retain these workers and to pay them their wages even though they did little or no work.

I believe it was because of a decree issued by Reich Minister Speer that the third course was chosen. The workers in those industries received their pay, and I took care that the factory owners received a certain compensation for wages which they paid those workers.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Witness, you mentioned before a discussion which you had on 1 April 1945 with Codefendant Speer. Can you tell us what the purpose of this discussion was?

SEYSS-INQUART: I mentioned already that I, for my part, wanted to talk with Minister Speer about the “scorched earth” decree. But Minister Speer also had a purpose in mind. He wanted us to transport potatoes from north Holland into the Ruhr region and in exchange to bring coal from the Ruhr area into the Netherlands: In view of the potato supply in north Holland this could readily have been done, but we did not have enough transportation means at our command to carry out this plan.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Did Speer tell you about precautionary measures for the securing of food supplies during the period after the occupation?

SEYSS-INQUART: Minister Speer told me that behind the Ruhr area he had stored trainloads of food and that he had appropriated the means of transportation from the armament program, so that if the Ruhr area were invaded there would be trains with food for this area available.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Thank you very much.

THE PRESIDENT: Does Counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? I am sorry, Dr. Kubuschok, did you have something to say?

DR. EGON KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for Defendant Von Papen): The Defendant Kaltenbrunner has asked me, as the defense counsel sitting nearest him, to state that he had discussed with his attorney a number of questions which he would like to put to Seyss-Inquart. I just tried to reach Dr. Kauffmann, Kaltenbrunner’s defense counsel; at present and probably all this afternoon it will not be possible for us to reach him. The Defendant Kaltenbrunner asks for permission to have these questions asked of Seyss-Inquart tomorrow.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will expect some explanation from Dr. Kauffmann as to why he is not here to cross-examine. He must have known that the time was about to arrive for him to cross-examine. But the Tribunal will assent to the suggestion that those questions may be put at a later date, tomorrow, if possible.

Now, do Counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?

M. DELPHIN DEBENEST (Assistant Prosecutor for the French Republic): Defendant, you have studied law, and you have told us that you had even obtained the degree of Doctor of Law at the University of Vienna in 1917?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: You were a lawyer from 1929 to 12 February 1938, at which date you became Minister for the Interior?

SEYSS-INQUART: From 1921.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. Now, was not your clientele mainly composed of Jews?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, not mainly, but there were some among them.

M. DEBENEST: And yet you told us yesterday that you had been an anti-Semite ever since the first World War.

SEYSS-INQUART: My clients knew that. It was widely known.

M. DEBENEST: Yes. But it did not, at the same time, cause you to despise Jewish money.

SEYSS-INQUART: Neither did it prevent the Jews from coming to me.

M. DEBENEST: Were you a Catholic?

SEYSS-INQUART: What do you mean by that?

M. DEBENEST: I am asking you whether you were a Catholic.

SEYSS-INQUART: I am a member; that is, I belong to the Catholic Church.

M. DEBENEST: Were you not also a member of a Catholic fraternity when you were a student?

SEYSS-INQUART: I never belonged to any student organization, Catholic or national.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. You were appointed Reich Commissioner for Holland by a decree of Hitler’s dated 18 May 1940; is that correct?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Your orders, on reaching the Netherlands—as you told us yesterday—were: To maintain the independence of the Netherlands and to establish economic relations between that country and Germany. You added that these orders were never afterwards modified by the Führer; is that true?

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not quite understand one word, the reference to economic relations.

M. DEBENEST: I said that you had arrived in the Netherlands with the following orders: 1) to maintain the independence of the Netherlands and 2) to establish economic relations between that country and Germany. Is that so?

SEYSS-INQUART: I would not put it that way exactly; rather, I was to try and bring about as close an economic relationship between Holland and Germany as possible. The economic stipulations, too, were, in the long run and apart from war necessities, not intended to be dictatorial.

M. DEBENEST: But you did say that you had not come with the intention of giving a definite political outlook to the people of the Netherlands. Is that correct?

SEYSS-INQUART: Well, I would not put it that way. It was my intention to further National Socialist policy wherever possible in Holland; not to decree it, but to promote it as much as possible.

M. DEBENEST: Was it also your intention not to introduce but to impose it?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, for one cannot force a political ideology on anyone.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. I am going to have a Document, Number 997-PS, handed to you. This document has already been submitted both by the Prosecution under Number RF-122, and yesterday by the Defense.

Will you kindly turn to Pages 7 and 8 of the German text? It is Page 7 of the French text, at the paragraph “Measures.” This document, as you will note, is a report which you yourself made.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: You write:

“In view of this state of affairs it was necessary first of all
to eliminate Winkelmann’s influence, which was done in the
following manner: The secretaries general were expressly
informed that from now on they would take orders only from the
Reich Commissioner, which they expressly agreed to. The offices
of secretaries general were retained and the same persons kept
in office, since in the event of their resignation it would
probably be impossible to find Dutch people who would be willing
to take over the administration. In the rightist parties there
were hardly any people qualified to do this; but it seemed
necessary, from a political point of view, that a certain number
of measures, above all economic measures, and indirectly, police
measures as well, signed by the Dutch secretaries general, be
made known to the Dutch nation.”

In short, according to this document, it appears that if you decided to retain the secretaries general, it was because you needed them for imposing certain measures on the Dutch people? Is that correct?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, but what has that to do with politics? This is a matter of administration.

M. DEBENEST: As far as I know, this refers to political as well as to economic questions.

SEYSS-INQUART: No, in the German text it says “police question.” Economic and police questions, not political; there is a difference.

M. DEBENEST: In that case, I will re-read the sentence, bearing your answer in mind.

“But it seemed necessary, from a political point of view...”

Now is that “political” or “police” which we see?

SEYSS-INQUART: Just a moment, please. Yes, that is correct. But that does not mean politics in the sense of party politics, but political in respect to the treatment of the Dutch people as such. Whether they thereby became National Socialists or not was quite immaterial to me.

M. DEBENEST: Was it in the interests of Dutch or of German policy?

SEYSS-INQUART: Well, I admit without any hesitation at all that I followed a German policy. That was part of my task.

M. DEBENEST: But the German policy of that day was surely the policy of the National Socialist Party?

SEYSS-INQUART: The German policy was, at that time, the policy of a fight for existence on the part of the German people, and this struggle was led by the National Socialist Party. But the basic concern was not the carrying out of the 25 points of the Party program, but rather the carrying through of our fight for existence, and that is what I think this means.

M. DEBENEST: In your administration, in the Netherlands, you were helped by four Commissioners General: Wimmer in Administration and Justice, Fischböck in Finance and Economy, Rauter for Public Security, and Schmidt for Special Questions.

The Commissioner General for Public Security, Rauter, was directly subordinate to you, was he not?

SEYSS-INQUART: The four Commissioners General were immediately subordinate to me; Rauter, insofar as he, as Commissioner General for Security, headed the Dutch police, and not insofar as he was chief of the German Police.

M. DEBENEST: You had decided to rule and administer the Netherlands alone; to accomplish this you dissolved the two Assemblies which then existed; and by the same decree, you restricted the powers of the State Council to the juridical field.

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not remember this decree, but it may very well have been that way.

M. DEBENEST: You also seized control over the finances, and over the Treasury of the Netherlands. For this purpose you issued a decree on 24 August 1940 authorizing you to appoint the president of the Bank of Holland.

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall the date exactly, but I did issue such a decree.

M. DEBENEST: When you arrived in the Netherlands, Mynheer Trip was president of the Netherlands Bank and Secretary General for the Treasury?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: For what reason did you have him replaced?

SEYSS-INQUART: Mr. Trip was replaced because he objected to the lifting of the existing foreign currency and clearing limitations. I put it to him that he could resign if he did not want to carry out my measures.

M. DEBENEST: And by whom did you replace him?

SEYSS-INQUART: By Mynheer Rost van Tonningen.

M. DEBENEST: You had known Mynheer Rost van Tonningen for a very long time?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not believe I knew him—only by name at the most. He obviously had been judged capable of holding the same office for Austria—in connection with the League of Nations—in Vienna.

M. DEBENEST: Since when did you know his name?

SEYSS-INQUART: Most probably since the time when he assumed his office in Vienna. I do not know the date.

M. DEBENEST: You were not associated with him when he was in Vienna?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that I never saw him.

M. DEBENEST: Was Mynheer Rost van Tonningen not a member of the Dutch National Socialist Party?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Was that the reason why you appointed him?

SEYSS-INQUART: That was one of the reasons. Not so much the fact that he was a member but rather that he represented our views.

M. DEBENEST: Will you kindly look again at the document which I have just shown to you, 997-PS, Page 5 of the German text, and Page 5 of the French text. This is what you say about Mynheer Rost van Tonningen:

“Rost van Tonningen: Meets perfectly all the ideological
requirements, is in line with the Germanic idea and National
Socialism, speaks effectively and animatedly, has a strong
desire to be active, does not find his strength in himself but
seeks the support and backing of other people.”

As far as I can see, we do not find in what you write here about Rost van Tonningen that he was particularly competent in financial matters.

SEYSS-INQUART: In reference to the other gentlemen as well, I never described their technical qualifications but merely their political attitude. I did not say that Mr. Mussert was really a recognized engineer in the Netherlands and so forth. I described merely their political attitude.

M. DEBENEST: Thank you. Therefore, you set up in the Netherlands a civil government, a German civil government.

SEYSS-INQUART: My four Commissioners General could not be considered as having the same offices as ministers normally have. Certain functions, however, had been delegated to the secretaries general. But these secretaries general did not represent a government or a ministry. I mentioned yesterday that I took over the Government.

M. DEBENEST: But the secretaries general did represent the Government of the Netherlands, did they not?

SEYSS-INQUART: No; the secretaries general were the supreme heads, officials of certain ministries; but they were not what we call the bearers of sovereignty in the State. Those gentlemen were in England.

M. DEBENEST: But you knew, nevertheless, that they had been left in the Netherlands by the Government in order to carry on the duties of the Government in its place?

SEYSS-INQUART: What intentions the Government which had gone to England had in making this appointment, I do not know. I assumed that they remained there in order to direct the administration technically. It is within the jurisdiction of an occupying power, in the case of complete occupation of a country, to determine just how the government is to be carried on.

M. DEBENEST: But did you consider that the creation of a German civil government in an occupied country was in conformity with international conventions?

DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I object to this question. In my opinion, it is a question which should be solved by the High Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the question may be asked. The defendant has already given his views of international law in his examination-in-chief. We allow the question.

M. DEBENEST: Then answer me, please.

SEYSS-INQUART: May I please have the question repeated?

M. DEBENEST: Do you consider that the creation of a German civil government in an occupied country is in conformity with international convention?

SEYSS-INQUART: In the way in which it took place in Holland, certainly.

M. DEBENEST: And why?

SEYSS-INQUART: Because, as a result of the complete occupation, Germany had assumed responsibility for the administration of this country and, therefore, had to establish a responsible leadership in this country.

M. DEBENEST: You yourself created the secretariats general, particularly the Secretariat for Information and Fine Arts?

SEYSS-INQUART: We call it the Propaganda Ministry.

M. DEBENEST: Yes.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I did that.

M. DEBENEST: And whom did you put at the head of this Secretariat?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe Professor Goedewaagen first. He, too, was a member of the Dutch National Socialist Party.

M. DEBENEST: That is true. Was not the staff of the General Secretariat mainly composed of members of the Dutch National Socialist Party?

SEYSS-INQUART: I am convinced of that, but I did not know them individually.

M. DEBENEST: Do you also know that in one of the offices a member of the SS even acted in an advisory capacity?

SEYSS-INQUART: The Dutch SS?

M. DEBENEST: No, the German SS.

SEYSS-INQUART: Then he was a consultant?

M. DEBENEST: He was a consultant for national education and national development.

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not quite follow you—he was a consultant for...

M. DEBENEST: For national education.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes; I did not know him. I consider it possible; but I do not believe that he was there as an SS man in particular, but rather for other reasons.

M. DEBENEST: You ordered the dissolution of the municipal and provincial assemblies; why?

SEYSS-INQUART: I cannot say the dissolution of the administration. I eliminated merely the elected representatives of the communities and the provinces. I not only kept the administration itself, but also strengthened it in its functions.

M. DEBENEST: You even turned out the mayors of the more important municipalities?

SEYSS-INQUART: Certainly; and I am convinced, with the full right of an occupying power. The burgomaster of Amsterdam did not prevent the general strike but rather promoted it.

M. DEBENEST: But was that the same reason that made you turn out all the mayors, or at least a certain number of them?

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not remove any mayors from office until they became unbearable for me because of their actively hostile attitude. Otherwise their political attitude was of no significance to me. Up to 1945 I kept Herr Boraine’s brother as mayor in a Dutch city, even though he was a very bitter enemy of National Socialism and of us Germans.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. And by whom did you replace all these mayors?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that until the year 1943, at least, the posts were filled in agreement with Mr. Frederiks, the Secretary General of the Interior, who was left behind for me by the Dutch Government to administer interior affairs. There were National Socialists; there were those who were not National Socialists. For instance, the son of the province commissioner of Holland was a firm enemy of National Socialism and of Germany, and yet I appointed him mayor of one of the largest Dutch cities, Zwolle.

M. DEBENEST: You are not exactly answering my question. I am asking you to tell me by whom you replaced all the mayors whom you had turned out? Were they members of the NSB?

SEYSS-INQUART: In part they were members of the Dutch National Socialist Party. In part they were nonpolitical men; and in part they were members of political trends which were absolutely against National Socialism and against Germany. In time there were more and more people of the Dutch National Socialist Party, for other people did not put themselves at our disposal any longer. That was the greatest success of the Dutch resistance movement that politically it resisted us so completely. That was Holland’s significance in this war.

M. DEBENEST: You therefore assert that it was the Dutch resistance movement which led you to put a great number of NSB people in all the important positions?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, that would be going a bit too far. The Dutch resistance movement merely induced the population not to co-operate with the occupying power at all, so that outside of the members of the Dutch National Socialist Party there was no one who wanted to work with us.

THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off?

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

M. DEBENEST: Defendant, in the larger towns and in the provinces of the Low Countries, you installed agents who were directly subordinate to you and to whom you gave full powers. Were those agents not members of the NSDAP?

SEYSS-INQUART: Will you please tell me what you mean by “agents”? I had German representatives in the provinces and in the big cities. Do you mean the German or the Dutch ones?

M. DEBENEST: No; I meant to speak of the Beauftragten (delegates).

SEYSS-INQUART: They were Germans, and I assume that all were members of the NSDAP. I do not know for certain, but it is quite possible and I believe that was the case.

M. DEBENEST: Well, then, in order to refresh your memory, will you please take Document 997-PS, which I had handed to you this morning. I refer to Page 9, in the French and German texts.

I would like to inform the Tribunal that I gave an incorrect reference this morning. The document was submitted under the Number USA-708, but it is RF-122.

[_Turning to the defendant._] At the top of Page 9 you write:

“Delegates have been provided for the provinces which have a
far-reaching independent administration. The creation of these
posts was delayed due to the necessity of making a preliminary
examination of the situation. It has now been shown that it must
be less a question of administrative officers than of men who
have had political experience. Therefore, through
Reichsamtsleiter Schmidt, Reichsleiter Bormann (Hess’ staff) was
asked for men who, coming mostly from the Party, are now on
their way and can be installed in their functions in the
provinces in a few days.”

That was true, wasn’t it?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, and I find my assertion confirmed that they were not all from the Party.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, but I also notice that these men were specially selected.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, they were politically experienced men for I did not want any administrative bureaucrats but men who were experienced and skillful in public political life, not Party political life.

M. DEBENEST: On what basis did you organize the municipal councils and the regional councils?

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, it seems to the Tribunal—I don’t know whether we are right—that it would be better if you would pause after the sentence rather than after each word.

M. DEBENEST: Yes.

SEYSS-INQUART: Will you please tell me what you mean by municipal and provincial councils? According to our concept, the word “council” means a corporate body, but I did not establish any such bodies, I appointed individual men to direct the administration.

M. DEBENEST: In the communes, in the Netherlands, there were municipal councils and in the provinces provincial councils, however differently you may have termed them.

SEYSS-INQUART: Thank you. I understand. In 1941 I dissolved the provincial and community assemblies which had previously existed. I provided for such councils in the community regulations which I issued then, but never actually appointed such councils because the Netherlands population did not co-operate and as a result these community councils would have been only artificial bodies. This provision of my community regulations did not go into effect.

M. DEBENEST: But on what basis did this regulation establish this organization?

SEYSS-INQUART: I cannot recall any certain basis. I assume that it was established by law, if it was provided for at all.

M. DEBENEST: Well, I will put the question in a different manner and perhaps you will be able to answer it. Did you introduce, by means of your regulations, the Führer Principle?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes. I called it the “one-man responsibility,” and I am of the opinion that in times of crisis a “one-man responsibility” is the correct thing.

M. DEBENEST: That was, in fact, the system which was also applied in Germany?

SEYSS-INQUART: That is true. Perhaps it was not exactly the same, but under the circumstances I considered it correct.

I repeat what I said yesterday: We committed an error here. We committed the error of considering the order imposed by the occupational forces better than that already existing in the occupied territory.

M. DEBENEST: Well, the introduction of this principle had a particular importance, did it not?

SEYSS-INQUART: I certainly thought it did; especially in these territorial districts I had to have a man who was responsible to me for the administration and not an anonymous majority of a representative body.

M. DEBENEST: I am having Document F-861 handed to you, which I submit under Number RF-1524. From the last paragraph you will see the importance which was attached to that in the Reich. It is a letter of the Minister of the Interior dated 6 September 1941. It reads as follows:

“Particular importance must be accorded to the decree because it
contains detailed regulations concerning the introduction of the
Führer Principle in the municipal government of the
Netherlands.”

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes. The Minister of the Interior was interested in this. I should only like to point out, to get things straight, that the Reich Minister of the Interior exerted no influence, and in the second place that these larger powers were given in 1941 to at least 80 percent of the mayors, who belonged to the democratic party and were therefore my political opponents.

MR. PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, haven’t you established, by the questions that you have put to this defendant, that he did alter, to a considerable extent, the form of government in the Netherlands, and that he introduced a different form of government? Isn’t that all that you really require for the argument which, no doubt, you intend to present? The details of it don’t very much matter, do they?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I simply wish to demonstrate that, contrary to what the defendant said, he had sought to impose the National Socialist system upon the people of the Netherlands.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, to a large extent, I think he had admitted that. He said just now that he introduced what he called “one-man responsibility,” which is another phrase for the Führer Principle, and that he had dissolved various organizations of the Netherlands Government. All I am suggesting to you is that, having got those general admissions, it isn’t necessary to go into details about the exact amount that the Government of the Netherlands was interfered with or the exact way in which it was replaced. Isn’t it really all stated in a document drawn up by the defendant, namely, the document you have been putting, 997-PS?

M. DEBENEST: More or less, Mr. President, but not entirely.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the only question is whether the details are really very important for the Tribunal.

M. DEBENEST: I thought that those details might have a certain importance, since the governors of the Reich itself attached a great deal of importance to it and, in fact, the whole was part of a plan which had been definitely laid down.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal is inclined to think that you have got all that is necessary for the argument which you are indicating that you would present. If there are any particular details that you think important to us, no doubt you can bring them out.

M. DEBENEST: Quite so, Mr. President.

[_Turning to the defendant._] For what purpose had you centralized the police into a police directorate?

SEYSS-INQUART: I will repeat my testimony of yesterday. The Netherlands police was under three or four different agencies, the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Justice, I believe the Army Ministry, and so forth. For the sake of a clear police administration, I thought it necessary to combine these various police organizations in one and to place it under the Ministry of Justice.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not appoint as chief of this police a National Socialist?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: In short, the end that you had in view—was it not to place the Netherlands in the hands of the NSDAP and thus adapt the internal organization of the Netherlands to that of the Reich? In other words, to do something similar to what you had done in Austria?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not believe that one can say that. In particular, the policy of the NSB was not that of the NSDAP. The NSB was different in many respects. In the second place, if I had wanted to do that, I would have been able to make Herr Mussert Prime Minister; that would have been less complicated. The simple explanation is that I used, possibly in a somewhat schematic way, the example of the Reich as a model in setting up an administration in the Netherlands, which, at least in part, made it possible for me to carry out my task of watching over safety and order. Yesterday I only asserted that I forced no Dutch citizen to become a National Socialist. I did not deny that a certain co-ordination was undertaken due to the mistakes which I have repeatedly admitted.

M. DEBENEST: But you placed members of the NSB in all the administrative bodies, the higher offices?

SEYSS-INQUART: Not exclusively, but I did it because in the last analysis I could rely only on them; all others sabotaged my orders.

M. DEBENEST: You told the Tribunal yesterday of the dismissal of the magistrates of the court of Leeuwarden. Would you tell us again the exact causes of this dismissal?

SEYSS-INQUART: They were not the magistrates but the administrators of the court. This court of Leeuwarden had said in a public judgment that those Dutch citizens who were condemned by Dutch courts and sent to a Dutch prison would be transferred to German concentration camps, maltreated, and executed. As a result, the court no longer felt in a position to sentence a Dutch citizen.

This statement of the court was wrong in my opinion. In my opinion Dutch citizens have not been sent from Netherlands prisons to German concentration camps to be executed there.

In the meantime I cleared up the situation at the suggestion of the Amsterdam judges, and through the Secretary General for Justice I had the court in Leeuwarden requested to continue passing sentence. The court in Leeuwarden did not do so. Thereupon, I dismissed this court.

M. DEBENEST: Well, I have here the document “Verdict of the Court of Appeal of Leeuwarden” and there is no question of Dutch prisoners being sent to concentration camps or being tortured or otherwise put to death. All that is mentioned is that the magistrates of that court do not wish that the detainees be sent to concentration camps after they have served their sentence.

I shall hand you the original of this document so that you can check it. The document has already been submitted under Number RF-931.

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not receive a German translation or the original German.

M. DEBENEST: Then I shall read you the translation of the judgment; you may check it:

“Considering that the court wishes to take into account the fact
that for some time past various terms of imprisonment have been
imposed by the Dutch judges upon the people contrary to the
intentions of the legislation, and the penalties of the judges
have been executed in a manner which aggravates those penalties
to such an extent that it is impossible for the judge to foresee
or even to suppose the penalty to be inflicted....”

THE PRESIDENT: Why not summarize the document to the witness, do it in that way? You can give the effect of the judgment.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President.

This judgment sets out in detail that the judges no longer wish to pronounce a penalty which might result in preventive detention.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you hear the question?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, Mr. President, but why did they not want to pass sentence? I had the German translation here in my hands, and I took this translation as my basis in this matter because I did not recall this judgment. I read it here, and I remember that it stated there that these Dutch prisoners were to go to German concentration camps to be tortured and executed.

THE PRESIDENT: It doesn’t appear to say anything about that in the judgment before us. There is nothing about that in the judgment, is there?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, the defendant claims that the judges did not wish to pronounce any such judgment any more so that people would not be sent to concentration camps to be tortured or executed. There is no question of that in the judgment. The only thing that is mentioned is that the court did not want to inflict any penalty which would result in the people being sent away to concentration camps. I do not see that there is anything in this judgment which the defendant might consider as a personal insult or injury.

SEYSS-INQUART: Now I have the German text. It reads:

“The court wishes to take into consideration the fact that for
some time judges have imposed penalties and that Dutch criminals
of male sex, contrary to legal prescription and contrary to the
intention of the legislator and the judge, have been executed
and are being executed in the camp in a manner which”—and so
forth.

Those are the concentration camps which the court meant. It concerns the fact that prisoners were sent from Dutch prisons to German camps.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on, M. Debenest.

M. DEBENEST: As regards education, did you not bring about very extensive changes?

SEYSS-INQUART: I introduced the supervision of the curriculum of the schools, and I made my influence felt in the appointment of teachers, particularly in the very numerous private schools in the Netherlands. Two-thirds of the Netherlands schools were private. I felt it necessary because in these schools there was definitely an anti-German tendency which was taught to the students. The Netherlands Education Ministry had the supervision of these matters.

M. DEBENEST: You thereby prevented a large number of clergymen from taking part in public education.

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not believe so. I ordered, or agreed to the order, that clergymen should not be heads of schools. As for clergymen who were teachers, I agreed to have their pay reduced by one-third. They were able to continue to teach with two-thirds of their income, and with the money which was saved I gave positions to 4,000 young teachers out of work.

M. DEBENEST: Talking of teachers, did you not cause the creation of a special school for teachers?

SEYSS-INQUART: No. I believe you mean courses which were given in Amersfoort or for those who volunteered for them.

M. DEBENEST: No. What I mean is those teachers who were compelled to take a course for a few months in Germany before their appointment.

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall the case. It might be those who were to teach German in the Netherlands schools. In that case, it is possible that I demanded that they first spend a certain time in Germany in order to be employed.

M. DEBENEST: You did, as a matter of fact, make the study of the German language in certain classes obligatory?

SEYSS-INQUART: In the 7th grade, and also in the 8th grade which I newly introduced. But at the same time, I also had instruction in the Dutch language increased in order to prove that I did not want to germanize the Dutch, but only wanted to give them an opportunity to study the German language.

M. DEBENEST: But they already had that opportunity. German was taught simultaneously along with English and French. You imposed the teaching of the German language at the expense of the other two foreign languages.

SEYSS-INQUART: I spoke of the elementary schools in which the study of German had not yet been introduced. It is conceivable that in the secondary schools instruction in German was increased at the expense of instruction in English and French.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not order the closing down of several universities? And why did you do so?

SEYSS-INQUART: I recall only the closing of the University of Leyden. When, according to my instructions, Jewish professors of the faculty were dismissed, the students of the University of Leyden went on strike for an extended period of time, and I thereupon closed its doors. I do not recall having closed any other universities. The Catholic University in Nijmegen and the Calvinistic University in Amsterdam, as far as I can recall, closed of their own accord.

M. DEBENEST: And the Polytechnic Institute at Delft? You did not order it to be closed either?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes. That was a temporary measure. It was reopened, as far as I recall.

M. DEBENEST: How about the Catholic Commercial College at Tilburg?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not remember that.

M. DEBENEST: It was in 1943.

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not remember. It is quite possible that for some reason or other it was closed, probably because it seemed to me to endanger the interests of the occupation forces.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not necessary to investigate this in detail, is it? If the defendant said that he closed one school without giving an adequate reason why, isn’t that sufficient for you to develop your argument?

M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Later on you attempted to turn the University of Leyden into a National Socialist university?

SEYSS-INQUART: If you consider the appointment of 2 or 3 professors out of some 100 or 50 professors as such, I should have to say yes. I cannot recall any other measures. Once it was suggested to me to establish a university in Leyden at which German and Dutch students could study, and that studies there should find suitable recognition in Germany. This did not come about.

M. DEBENEST: Anyway, you admit that you had the intention of creating this school?

SEYSS-INQUART: “Intention” is a little too strong. These ideas were discussed. There was another idea. In the Netherlands, in the German Wehrmacht, we had a number of university students who had not been able to continue their studies for understandable reasons. It was considered at that time to hold courses at Leyden for these university students in the Wehrmacht, which would be a sort of continuation of their studies.

M. DEBENEST: I shall have Document F-803 presented to you, which I submit under the Number RF-1525. This is a report from the Ministry of National Education of the Netherlands. It is on Page 23 of the French version and Page 16 of the German version.

I shall read the passage:

“Attempts were made to make the University of Leyden a National
Socialist university by appointing National Socialist
professors. However, these attempts failed as a result of the
firm attitude taken by the professors and by the students.
Certain professors even....”

THE PRESIDENT: Is that on Page 15?

M. DEBENEST: That is on Page 23 of the French text, in the last paragraph.

THE PRESIDENT: What is it?

M. DEBENEST: It is F-803.

THE PRESIDENT: I did not ask what document it was. I asked what is the nature of the document.

M. DEBENEST: I pointed out to the Tribunal that it was a report of the Minister for Education in the Netherlands.

THE PRESIDENT: Was he appointed by the defendant, or appointed before the war?

M. DEBENEST: It is the present Minister for Education. I would point out to the Tribunal that I am obliged to go into a certain amount of detail, because when the French Prosecution presented its case, we did not have all the documents at our disposal, and the Dutch Government is anxious to have these facts presented in as detailed a manner as possible.

I might add that today I am producing documents which emanate from the Dutch Government.

THE PRESIDENT: That is Page 23?

M. DEBENEST: Page 23 of the French text, six lines before the end of the last paragraph.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: “Attempts were made to make the University of
Leyden a National Socialist university by appointing National
Socialist professors. However, these attempts failed as a result
of the firm attitude taken by the professors and by the
students. The professors even presented their collective
resignation in May 1942, and as there was no reaction to it,
they presented it a second time in September of the same year.”

THE PRESIDENT: Surely, the defendant has already said this, has he not? This is Leyden University that you are speaking about, is it not?

M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President. If I understood correctly, I believe the defendant said that there had been question of creating a National Socialist school in Leyden but that he had not put this project into effect. On the other hand, it appears from this document that it did not depend upon him but that it was a result of the attitude of the teachers. That is what I wanted to bring out.

SEYSS-INQUART: May I comment on that?

M. DEBENEST: Certainly.

SEYSS-INQUART: The fact that there was an attempt to make Leyden a National Socialist university is stated only in this document. I repeat my assertion that I appointed two, or at the most three, professors who were National Socialists, and this document shows clearly what my attitude was. I did nothing at all against the demonstrative gesture of resignation of the professors. The second attempt was also unanswered. The fact that arrests occurred then is connected with the fact that part of the professors were otherwise suspected, and these professors were sent to St. Michelsgestel. That is this concentration camp where the inmates played golf.

M. DEBENEST: Then that was a coincidence?

SEYSS-INQUART: I would not say that. Certainly after the second attempt we checked up on the gentlemen a little.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not take measures to oblige the students to do forced labor?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not think that this was done as long as they were studying, for I had issued express orders for the exemption of all students. Advanced technical students were given exemption and university students who were actually studying or had fulfilled the requirements for study were not forced to work, either, as far as I remember.

M. DEBENEST: Well, I shall give you briefly an account of Paragraph 2 of your regulation. It is the Ordinance of 11 March 1943, Number 27.

“Any student who, after the present regulation has been put into
effect, has successfully passed the final examination or a
similar test in one of the studies mentioned in Paragraph 1 and
specified as such by orders of the Secretary General in the
Ministry for Education, Science, and Culture, is compelled to
work for a determined period within the scope of the allocation
of labor.”

Is that your ordinance?

SEYSS-INQUART: Does it say labor service?

M. DEBENEST: I have not got the German version in front of me. It is Ordinance Number 27.

SEYSS-INQUART: Ordinance Number 27. May I ask what paragraph it is?

M. DEBENEST: Second paragraph.

SEYSS-INQUART: That is correct. It says, “Students who have taken the final examination,” that is, who are no longer studying but have finished their studies. Members of the same age groups were meanwhile drafted for labor commitment, and those exempted by me now had to make this up. But their study was not disturbed or interrupted.

M. DEBENEST: Therefore, the students were able, freely, to continue their studies?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall any obstacles.

M. DEBENEST: Good. Will you please look at the next decree, that is, Number 28, which is a decree of Secretary General Van Damm. This decree forces the students to make a declaration of loyalty.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, that is correct.

M. DEBENEST: What were the consequences?

SEYSS-INQUART: I could not understand the consequences. The universities were, at that time, the seat of anti-German activities. I demanded from the university students a declaration promising they would uphold the laws in effect in the occupied Netherlands territories, that they would abstain from any action against the German Reich, the Wehrmacht, and the Netherlands authorities, and that they would not interfere with public order in the university.

I cannot understand why a university student could not make such a statement. Those who did make it were able to continue their studies without any hindrance. But the Dutch professors, by way of sabotage, refused to give them any instruction.

M. DEBENEST: Well, then, those who did not subscribe to this declaration, what happened to them?

SEYSS-INQUART: They were no longer university students, and if they belonged to the age groups which I had called up for labor commitment, they were drafted.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not apply the Führer Principle to the universities?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not believe quite as strictly as in the community administrations. But I gave the president of the university greater power because I demanded greater responsibility from him.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. Was not a certain National Socialist propaganda made in the universities?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that could not be entirely prevented.

M. DEBENEST: In particular, did not the students have to visit certain exhibitions and be present at lectures organized by the Party or even by the Reich offices?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not know, but it is possible.

M. DEBENEST: In short, you interfered in the administrative domain, in the realm of teaching, and you also interfered in a similar manner in the cultural life of the Dutch people?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, to the extent which I stated yesterday.

M. DEBENEST: You did, in fact, create various professional syndicates, is not that what you told us?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: You alleged that the acceptance into these syndicates was not obligatory and that you never imposed payment of dues?

SEYSS-INQUART: That is not correct. Membership in these syndicates was obligatory. I am also convinced that the head of the syndicates required the members to pay their dues. I refused to conclude from the failure to pay dues that a person was no longer a member of the syndicate, and consequently could no longer practice his trade, or that his dues could be collected by way of court action.

M. DEBENEST: However, do you not recall the difficulties which arose in this manner with the medical profession?

SEYSS-INQUART: I was just thinking of the Medical Syndicate. Certain circles therein desired that the members who did not pay their dues should be prohibited from carrying out their profession, or that at least the dues should be collected through court pressure. I told these gentlemen that if it was not possible to persuade the members to pay their dues, I, for my part, would not assert any force.

M. DEBENEST: What were these circles?

SEYSS-INQUART: Perhaps you can tell me, then we shall save more time.

M. DEBENEST: Was it not the NSB for instance?

SEYSS-INQUART: In what connection?

M. DEBENEST: Did you not yourself say that certain circles had demanded the payment of dues? I am asking, what circles?

SEYSS-INQUART: Do you mean what friends or co-workers of mine urged me to insist on payment? The question is not very clear to me.

M. DEBENEST: I am just asking you to say exactly what you mean by “circles.” You yourself used the word—unless it is a mistranslation.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, the Tribunal thinks really that you are spending too much time on these various small subjects. We have spent the whole afternoon on these various measures which the defendant introduced in the Netherlands. It is perfectly clear according to his own admission that he was altering the whole force of administration in the Netherlands.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not also take part in the persecution of the churches?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not know whether the measures could be called “persecution of the churches,” but I took measures concerning the churches.

M. DEBENEST: What measures in particular? What measures?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that the most serious, in your eyes, would be the confiscation of various Netherlands monasteries. One of them was turned into a German school and the church building was torn down.

M. DEBENEST: You alleged yesterday that priests or at least one priest could visit concentration camps? Is that correct?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, I did not say that. I said only that in the Jewish camp at Westerborg there were Catholic and Protestant Jews, who were visited on Sundays by a clergyman from outside. I do not believe that clergymen were allowed to pay visits to the concentration camps under the control of German Police or were able to enter them.

M. DEBENEST: Just one question as regards the press. Did the press retain a certain—I repeat, a “certain”—liberty during the time of the occupation?

SEYSS-INQUART: From my point of view, much too little. The press was under fairly strict control by the Propaganda Ministry. The editors were employed after being judged suitable by the Netherlands Propaganda Ministry. I believe that it is a matter of course for an occupying power that for such an important instrument one takes only people who have a certain positive attitude. I would have wished that these men could have been given much more freedom of speech, and I believe that I can say that so far as I exerted any influence, this was the case; but even the Reich Commissioner in the Netherlands was not almighty.

M. DEBENEST: Were there not reprisal measures taken against certain newspapers?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not know...

THE PRESIDENT: We might get on a little bit more quickly. There is a very long pause between the question and the answer.

SEYSS-INQUART: I must first recall the circumstances. If unexpectedly I am questioned about something which happened 5 years ago I must think over carefully what actually happened in individual cases. For example, I can say “no” immediately, but I am sure that the answer is wrong.

Now, for instance, reprisals—I know that once in The Hague the editor’s office of a newspaper was blown up. That was a measure taken by the Security Police. It was the seat of an illegal propaganda group.

M. DEBENEST: You spoke yesterday of the sterilization of the Jews in Holland. Who introduced this measure?

SEYSS-INQUART: If you say “introduced,” I believe that I can answer the question correctly. The Security Police informed me that a number of Jews had themselves sterilized by Jewish doctors and that thereupon these Jews were freed of all restrictions and could dispense with the wearing of the Jewish star. These were not Jews who otherwise would have been evacuated, but who would have remained in Holland subject to certain restrictions.

I asked the head of my health department to investigate the matter. He informed me that this was a very serious operation in the case of women, and thereupon I asked the Higher SS and Police Leader to forbid this action, at least in the case of women. Then the Christian churches protested to me. I answered the Christian churches—I assume you have the letter in your files—describing the state of affairs and pointing out expressly that no compulsion must be exerted here. Shortly thereafter this action was finished. As I heard, the Christian churches informed the Jews, and when they were sure that no compulsion would be exerted on them they no longer submitted themselves to this operation.

I myself returned their property to the Jews in question, and the matter was ended; although I must say today that the further away one is from this period of time, the less understandable it is.

M. DEBENEST: But was it you who had the idea of this sterilization?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, the matter was reported to me by the Security Police.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, I shall have Document 3594-PS handed to you, which I shall submit under Number RF-1526. It is an affidavit by Hildegard Kunze, an agent of the RSHA. Third paragraph:

“I remember that either in this report or in another report
he”—that is, Seyss-Inquart—“suggested that all Jews who were
privileged to remain in Holland should be sterilized.”

There is no question of police agencies there.

SEYSS-INQUART: This involves the correctness of the memory of a stenographer. In the third point, moreover, she does not even assert that the report in the third paragraph is the one she mentions in Paragraph (2), and which she ascribes to me. It is out of the question that she saw any report from me wherein I made such a suggestion. The case was reported to me as a fact by the Security Police, as an already existing fact or one in process of realization.

M. DEBENEST: So you contend that it was not you but the Police. In any case, you tolerated it?

SEYSS-INQUART: As far as the male Jews were concerned I tolerated it for a time; that is true. It was made clear to me that no direct compulsion was exerted on these Jews, no threat to their disadvantage.

THE PRESIDENT: We might adjourn for 10 minutes.

[_A recess was taken._]

M. DEBENEST: Defendant, do you claim that you forced no one to go and work in Germany?

SEYSS-INQUART: On the contrary, I believe I enrolled 250,000 Dutch people to work in Germany, and I testified to that yesterday.

M. DEBENEST: Good. I shall not dwell on that point.

Did you not also introduce certain legislative clauses as far as nationality was concerned?

SEYSS-INQUART: You mean the nationality of Dutch citizens?

M. DEBENEST: Yes.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I did that.

M. DEBENEST: Did you take part in the arrest, interning, and deportation to concentration camps in Germany of Dutch citizens, and in what way?

SEYSS-INQUART: I should like to explain briefly the matter of citizenship.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly.

SEYSS-INQUART: Quite a few Dutch enlisted in the Waffen-SS. It was the intention of the Führer to give them German citizenship. However, with that they would have lost their Dutch citizenship, and that was something they certainly did not want to happen. Therefore, I issued a decree that upon the acquisition of German citizenship, the Dutch citizenship would not be lost for a year, during which time the person involved could make his decision.

This should serve to clarify the purpose and the object of this decree of mine.