Chapter XIII: Part 13

M^r Pinkney saw no good reason for committing. The value of land had been found on full investigation to be an impracticable rule. The contributions of revenue including imports & exports must be too changeable in their amount; too difficult to be adjusted; and too injurious to the non-commercial States. The number of inhabitants appeared to him the only just & practicable rule. He thought the blacks ought to stand on an equality with the whites: But w^d agree to the ratio settled by Cong^s. He contended that Cong^s had no right under the articles of Confederation to authorize the admission of new States; no such case having been provided for.

M^r Davy was for committing the clause in order to get at the merits of the question arising on the Report. He seemed to think that wealth or property ought to be represented in the 2^d branch; and numbers in the 1^{st} branch.

On the Motion for committing as made by M^r Gov^r Morris,

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no.
M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The members app^d by Ballot were M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Gorham, M^r Randolph, M^r Rutlidge, M^r King.

M^r Wilson signified that his view in agreeing to the co[~m]itm^t was that the Com^e might consider the propriety of adopting a scale similar to that established by the Constitution of Mass^{ts} which w^d give an advantage to y^e small States without substantially departing from the rule of proportion.

M^r Wilson & M^r Mason moved to postpone the clause relating to money bills in order to take up the clause relating to an equality of votes in the Second branch.

On the question Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay.
P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The clause relating to equality of votes being under consideration,

Doc^r Franklin observed that this question could not be properly put by itself, the Co[~m]ittee having reported several propositions as mutual conditions of each other. He could not vote for it if separately taken, but should vote for the whole together.

Col. Mason perceived the difficulty & suggested a reference of the rest of the Report to y^e Committee just appointed, that the whole might be brought into one view.

M^r Randolph disliked y^e reference to that Committee, as it consisted of members from States opposed to the wishes of the smaller States, and could not therefore be acceptable to the latter.

M^r Martin & M^r Jenifer moved to postpone the clause till the Com^e last appointed sh^d report.

M^r Madison observed that if the uncommitted part of the Report was connected with the part just committed, it ought also to be committed; if not connected, it need not be postponed till report should be made.

On the question for postponing, moved by M^r Martin & M^r
Jenifer,--Con^t N. J. Del. M^d V^a Geo. ay. P^a N. C. S. C. no.
Mass. N. Y. divided.

The 1^{st} clause relating to the originating of money bills was then resumed.

M^r Govern^r Morris was opposed to a restriction of this right in either branch, considered merely in itself and as unconnected with the point of representation in the 2^d branch. It will disable the 2^d branch from proposing its own money plans, and giving the people an opportunity of judging by comparison of the merits of those proposed by the 1^{st} branch.

M^r Wilson could see nothing like a concession here on the part of the smaller States. If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first, which last. If either was indiscriminately to have the right of originating, the reverse of the Report, would he thought be most proper; since it was a maxim that the least numerous body was the fittest for deliberation; the most numerous for decision. He observed that this discrimination had been transcribed from the British into several American constitutions. But he was persuaded that on examination of the American experiments it would be found to be a trifle light as air. Nor could he ever discover the advantage of it in the Parliamentary history of G. Britain. He hoped if there was any advantage in the privilege, that it would be pointed out.

M^r Williamson thought that if the privilege were not common to both branches it ought rather to be confined to the 2^d as the bills in that case would be more narrowly watched, than if they originated with the branch having most of the popular confidence.

M^r Mason. The consideration which weighed with the Committee was that the 1^{st} branch would be the immediate representatives of the people, the 2^d would not. Should the latter have the power of giving away the people's money, they might soon forget the source from whence they received it. We might soon have an aristocracy. He had been much concerned at the principles which had been advanced by some gentlemen, but had the satisfaction to find they did not generally prevail. He was a friend to proportional representation in both branches; but supposed that some points must be yielded for the sake of accomodation.

M^r Wilson. If he had proposed that the 2^d branch should have an independent disposal of public money, the observations of (Col. Mason) would have been a satisfactory answer. But nothing could be farther from what he had said. His question was how is the power of the 1^{st} branch increased or that of the 2^d diminished by giving the proposed privilege to the former? Where is the difference, in which branch it begins, if both must concur, in the end?

M^r Gerry would not say that the concession was a sufficient one on the part of the small States. But he could not but regard it in the light of a concession. It w^d make it a constitutional principle that the 2^d branch were not possessed of the Confidence of the people in money matters, which w^d lessen their weight & influence. In the next place if the 2^d branch were dispossessed of the privilege, they w^d be deprived of the opportunity which their continuance in office 3 times as long as the 1^{st} branch would give them of making three successive essays in favor of a particular point.

M^r Pinkney thought it evident that the Concession was wholly on one side, that of the large States, the privilege of originating money bills being of no account.

M^r Gov^r Morris had waited to hear the good effects of the restriction. As to the alarm sounded, of an aristocracy, his creed was that there never was, nor ever will be a civilized Society without an aristocracy. His endeavor was to keep it as much as possible from doing mischief. The restriction if it has any real operation, will deprive us of the services of the 2^d branch in digesting & proposing money bills of which it will be more capable than the 1^{st} branch. It will take away the responsibility of the 2^d branch, the great security for good behavior. It will always leave a plea, as to an obnoxious money bill that it was disliked, but could not be constitutionally amended; nor safely rejected. It will be a dangerous source of disputes between the two Houses. We should either take the British Constitution altogether or make one for ourselves. The Executive there has dissolved two Houses as the only cure for such disputes. Will our Executive be able to apply such a remedy? Every law directly or indirectly takes money out of the pockets of the people. Again What use may be made of such a privilege in case of great emergency? Suppose an Enemy at the door, and money instantly & absolutely necessary for repelling him, may not the popular branch avail itself of this duress, to extort concessions from the Senate destructive of the Constitution itself. He illustrated this danger by the example of the Long Parliament's exped^{ts} for subverting the H. of Lords; concluding on the whole that the restriction would be either useless or pernicious.

Doc^r Franklin did not mean to go into a justification of the Report, but as it had been asked what would be the use of restraining the 2^d branch from medling with money bills, he could not but remark that it was always of importance that the people should know who had disposed of their money, & how it had been disposed of. It was a maxim that those who feel, can best judge. This end would, he thought, be best attained, if money affairs were to be confined to the immediate representatives of the people. This was his inducement to concur in the report. As to the danger or difficulty that might arise from a Negative in the 2^d where the people w^d not be proportionately represented, it might easily be got over by declaring that there should be no such negative; or if that will not do, by declaring that there shall be no such branch at all.

M^r Martin said that it was understood in the Committee that the difficulties and disputes which had been apprehended, should be guarded ag^{st} in the detailing of the plan.

M^r Wilson. The difficulties & disputes will increase with the attempts to define & obviate them. Queen Anne was obliged to dissolve her Parliam^t in order to terminate one of these obstinate disputes between the two Houses. Had it not been for the mediation of the Crown, no one can say what the result would have been. The point is still sub judice in England. He approved of the principles laid down by the Honble President (Doct^r Franklin) his Colleague, as to the expediency of keeping the people informed of their money affairs. But thought they would know as much, and be as well satisfied, in one way as in the other.

Gen^l Pinkney was astonished that this point should have been considered as a concession. He remarked that the restriction to money bills had been rejected on the merits singly considered, by 8 States ag^{st} 3. and that the very States which now called it a concession, were then ag^{st} it as nugatory or improper in itself.

On the Question whether the clause relating to money bills in the Report of the Com^e consisting of a member from each State, sh^d stand as part of the Report

Mass^{ts} divid^d Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no.
Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. div^d

A Question was then raised whether the question was carried in the affirmative; there being but 5 ays out of 11. States present. The words of the rule are (see May 28).

On this question: Mas. Con^t N. J. P^a Del. M^d N. C. S. C. Geo.
ay. N. Y. V^a no

(In several preceding instances like votes had sub silentio been entered as decided in the affirmative.)

Adjourned

SATURDAY, JULY 7. IN CONVENTION.

"Shall the clause allowing each State one vote in the 2^d branch, stand as part of the Report,"? being taken up--

M^r Gerry. This is the critical question. He had rather agree to it than have no accommodation. A Govern^t short of a proper national plan, if generally acceptable, would be preferable to a proper one which if it could be carried at all, would operate on discontented States. He thought it would be best to suspend the question till the Comm^e yesterday appointed, should make report.

M^r Sherman Supposed that it was the wish of every one that some Gen^l Gov^t should be established. An equal vote in the 2^d branch would, he thought, be most likely to give it the necessary vigor. The small States have more vigor in their Gov^{ts} than the large ones, the more influence therefore the large ones have, the weaker will be the Gov^t. In the large States it will be most difficult to collect the real & fair sense of the people. Fallacy & undue influence will be practised with most success; and improper men will most easily get into office. If they vote by States in the 2^d branch, and each State has an equal vote, there must be always a majority of States as well as a majority of the people on the side of public measures, & the Gov^t will have decision and efficacy. If this be not the case in the 2^d branch there may be a majority of States ag^{st} public measures, and the difficulty of compelling them to abide by the public determination, will render the Government feebler than it has ever yet been.

M^r Wilson was not deficient in a conciliating temper, but firmness was sometimes a duty of higher obligation. Conciliation was also misapplied in this instance. It was pursued here rather among the Representatives, than among the Constituents; and it w^d be of little consequence if not established among the latter; and there could be little hope of its being established among them if the foundation should not be laid in justice and right.

On Question shall the words stand as part of the Report?

Mass^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J, ay. P^a no. Del. ay.
M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. div^d

(Note. several votes were given here in the affirmative or were div^d because another final question was to be taken on the whole report.)

M^r Gerry[127] thought it would be proper to proceed to enumerate & define the powers to be vested in the Gen^l Gov^t before a question on the report should be taken as to the rule of representation in the 2^d branch.

[127] King gives the three speeches of Gerry, Madison and
Patterson as follows:

"_Gerry._ I agree to the measure, provided that the first
Br. (H. of Reps.) shall originate money bills and money
appropriations. The prejudices as well as the interest of
our Constituents must be regarded--two or three thousand men
are in office in the States--their influence will be in
favor of an Equality of votes among the States.

"_Madison._ Equality in the Senate will enable a minority to
hold a majority, and to oblige them to submit to their
interests, or they will withdraw their assent to measures
essential and necessary to the general Good. I have known
one man, when the State was represented by only two, and
they were divided, oppose six States in Congress on an
important occasion for three days, and finally compel them
to gratify his caprice in order to obtain his suffrage. The
Senate will possess certain exclusive Powers, such as the
appointments to office, if the States have equal votes; a
minority of People will appoint the Great Offices. Besides
the small States may be near the Seat of Govt.--a bare
Quorum of the H. of R. may be easily assembled, and carry a
bill against the sense of a majority if all were present,
and the Senate, tho' all were present, might confirm such
Bill. Virginia has objected to every addition of the powers
of Congress, because she has only 1/13 of the Power when she
ought to have one sixth.

"_Paterson._ I hope the question will be taken: if we do not
give equal votes in the Senate to the States, the small
States agreeing that money Bills and appropriations shall
originate in the H. of Reps., elected according to numbers,
it must not be expected that the small States will agree to
the amendments of the Confederation. Let us decide this
question and lose no more time. I think that I shall vote
against the provision, because I think that the exclusive
originating of money Bills & appropriations by the H. of
Reps. is giving up too much on the part of the small
States."--King's _Life and Correspondence of Rufus King_,
I., 613.

M^r Madison, observed that it w^d be impossible to say what powers could be safely & properly vested in the Gov^t before it was known, in what manner the States were to be represented in it. He was apprehensive that if a just representation were not the basis of the Gov^t it would happen, as it did when the Articles of Confederation were depending, that every effectual prerogative would be withdrawn or withheld, and the New Gov^t w^d be rendered as impotent and as shortlived as the old.

M^r Patterson would not decide whether the privilege concerning money bills were a valuable consideration or not: But he considered the mode & rule of representation in the 1^{st} branch as fully so; and that after the establishment of that point, the small States would never be able to defend themselves without an equality of votes in the 2^d branch. There was no other ground of accommodation. His resolution was fixt. He would meet the large States on that ground and no other. For himself he should vote ag^{st} the Report, because it yielded too much.

M^r Gov^r Morris. He had no resolution unalterably fixed except to do what should finally appear to him right. He was ag^{st} the Report because it maintained the improper constitution of the 2^d branch. It made it another Congress, a mere whisp of straw. It had been s^d (by M^r Gerry) that the new Govern^t would be partly national, partly federal; that it ought in the first quality to protect individuals; in the second, the States. But in what quality was it to protect the aggregate interest of the whole. Among the many provisions which had been urged, he had seen none for supporting the dignity and splendor of the American Empire. It had been one of our greatest misfortunes that the great objects of the nation had been sacrificed constantly to local views; in like manner as the general interests of States had been sacrificed to those of the Counties. What is to be the check in the Senate? none; unless it be to keep the majority of the people from injuring particular States. But particular States ought to be injured for the sake of a majority of the people, in case their conduct should deserve it. Suppose they should insist on claims evidently unjust, and pursue them in a manner detrimental to the whole body. Suppose they should give themselves up to foreign influence. Ought they to be protected in such cases. They were originally nothing more than colonial corporations. On the declaration of Independence, a Governm^t was to be formed. The small States aware of the necessity of preventing anarchy, and taking advantage of the moment, extorted from the large ones an equality of votes. Standing now on that ground, they demand under the new system greater rights as men, than their fellow Citizens of the large States. The proper answer to them is that the same necessity of which they formerly took advantage, does not now exist, and that the large States are at liberty now to consider what is right, rather than what may be expedient. We must have an efficient Gov^t and if there be an efficiency in the local Gov^{ts} the former is impossible. Germany alone proves it. Notwithstanding their common diet, notwithstanding the great prerogatives of the Emperor as head of the Empire, and his vast resources, as sovereign of his particular dominions, no union is maintained; foreign influence disturbs every internal operation, & there is no energy whatever in the General Governm^t. Whence does this proceed? From the energy of the local authorities; from its being considered of more consequence to support the Prince of Hesse, than the Happiness of the people of Germany. Do Gentlemen wish this to be y^e case here. Good God, Sir, is it possible they can so delude themselves. What if all the Charters & Constitutions of the States were thrown into the fire, and all their demagogues into the Ocean. What would it be to the happiness of America. And will not this be the case here if we pursue the train in w^{ch} the business lies. We shall establish an Aulic Council without an Emperor to execute its decrees. The same circumstances which unite the people here, unite them in Germany. They have there a common language, a common law, common usages and manners, and a common interest in being united; Yet their local jurisdictions destroy every tie. The case was the same in the Grecian States. The United Netherlands are at this time torn in factions. With these examples before our eyes shall we form establishments which must necessarily produce the same effects. It is of no consequence from what districts the 2^d branch shall be drawn, if it be so constituted as to yield an asylum ag^{st} these evils. As it is now constituted he must be ag^{st} its being drawn from the States in equal portions. But still he was ready to join in devising such an amendment of the plan, as will be most likely to secure our liberty & happiness.

M^r Sherman & M^r Elseworth moved to postpone the Question on the Report from the Committee of a member from each State, in order to wait for the Report from the Com^e of 5 last appointed.

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.
Maryland ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

MONDAY JULY 9^{TH} IN CONVENTION.

M^r Daniel Carroll, from Maryland took his seat.

M^r Gov^r Morris delivered a report from the Com^e of 5 members to whom was committed the clause in the Report of the Com^e consisting of a member from each State, stating the proper ratio of Representatives in the 1^{st} branch, to be as 1 to every 40,000 inhabitants, as follows viz

"The Committee to whom was referred the 1^{st} clause of the 1^{st} proposition reported from the grand Committee, beg leave to report:

I. that in the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature the 1^{st} branch thereof consist of 56. members of which Number N. Hampshire shall have 2, Mass^{ts} 7, R. I^d 1, Con^t 4, N. Y. 5, N. J. 3, P^a 8, Del. 1, M^d 4, V^a 9, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, Geo. 2.

II. But as the present situation of the States may probably alter as well in point of wealth as in the number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature be authorized from time to time to augment y^e number of Representatives. And in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided, or any two or more States united, or any new States created within the limits of the United States, the Legislature shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principles of their wealth and number of inhabitants."

M^r Sherman wished to know on what principles or calculations the Report was founded. It did not appear to correspond with any rule of numbers, or of any requisition hitherto adopted by Cong^s

M^r Gorham. Some provision of this sort was necessary in the outset. The number of blacks & whites with some regard to supposed wealth was the general guide. Fractions could not be observed. The Legisl^{re} is to make alterations from time to time as justice & propriety may require. Two objections prevailed ag^{st} the rate of 1 member for every 40,000 inh^{ts}. The 1^{st} was that the Representation would soon be too numerous: the 2^d that the West^n States who may have a different interest, might if admitted on that principle by degrees, outvote the Atlantic. Both these objections are removed. The number will be small in the first instance and may be continued so. And the Atlantic States having y^e Gov^t in their own hands, may take care of their own interest, by dealing out the right of Representation in safe proportions to the Western States. These were the views of the Committee.

M^r L. Martin wished to know whether the Com^e were guided in the ratio, by the wealth or number of inhabitants, of the States, or by both; noting its variations from former apportionments by Cong^s

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Rutlidge moved to postpone the 1^{st} paragraph relating to the number of members to be allowed each State in the first instance, and to take up the 2^d paragraph authorizing the Legisl^{re} to alter the number from time to time according to wealth & inhabitants. The motion was agreed to nem. con.

On Question on the 2^d parag^h taken without any debate

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.
M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Sherman moved to refer the 1^{st} part apportioning the Representatives, to a Comm^e of a member from each State.

M^r Gov^r Morris seconded the motion; observing that this was the only case in which such committees were useful.

M^r Williamson thought it would be necessary to return to the rule of numbers, but that the Western States stood on different footing. If their property shall be rated as high as that of the Atlantic States, then their representation ought to hold a like proportion. Otherwise if their property was not to be equally rated.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The Report is little more than a guess. Wealth was not altogether disregarded by the Com^e. Where it was apparently in favor of one State, whose n^{os} were superior to the numbers of another, by a fraction only, a member extraordinary was allowed to the former: and so vice versa. The Committee meant little more than to bring the matter to a point for the consideration of the House.

M^r Reed asked why Georgia was allowed 2 members, when her number of inhabitants had stood below that of Delaware.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Such is the rapidity of the population of that State, that before the plan takes effect, it will probably be entitled to 2 Representatives.

M^r Randolph, disliked the Report of the Com^e but had been unwilling to object to it. He was apprehensive that as the number was not be changed, till the Nat^l Legislature should please, a pretext would never be wanting to postpone alterations, and keep the power in the hands of those possessed of it. He was in favor of the Commitm^t to a member from each State.

M^r Patterson considered the proposed estimate for the future according to the combined rules of numbers and wealth, as too vague. For this reason N. Jersey was ag^{st} it. He could regard negroes slaves in no light but as property. They are no free agents, have no personal liberty, no faculty of acquiring property, but on the contrary are themselves property, & like other property entirely at the will of the Master. Has a man in Virg^a a number of votes in proportion to the number of his slaves? And if negroes are not represented in the States to which they belong, why should they be represented in the Gen^l Gov^t. What is the true principle of Representation? It is an expedient by which an assembly of certain individ^{ls} chosen by the people is substituted in place of the inconvenient meeting of the people themselves. If such a meeting of the people was actually to take place, would the slaves vote? They would not. Why then sh^d they be represented. He was also ag^{st} such an indirect encouragem^t of the slave trade; observing that Cong^s in their act relating to the change of the 8 art: of Confed^n had been ashamed to use the term "slaves" & had substituted a description.

M^r Madison reminded M^r Patterson that his doctrine of Representation which was in its principle the genuine one, must forever silence the pretensions of the small States to an equality of votes with the large ones. They ought to vote in the same proportion in which their Citizens would do, if the people of all the States were collectively met. He suggested as a proper ground of compromise, that in the first branch the States should be represented according to their number of free inhabitants; And in the 2^d which had for one of its primary objects the guardianship of property, according to the whole number, including slaves.

M^r Butler urged warmly the justice & necessity of regarding wealth in the apportionment of Representation.

M^r King had always expected that as the Southern States are the richest, they would not league themselves with the North^n unless some respect were paid to their superior wealth. If the latter expect those preferential distinctions in Commerce, & other advantages which they will derive from the connexion they must not expect to receive them without allowing some advantages in return. Eleven out of 13 of the States had agreed to consider Slaves in the apportionment of taxation; and taxation and Representation ought to go together.

On the question for committing the first paragraph of the Report to a member from each State

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.
M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The Com^e appointed were M^r King, M^r Sherman, M^r Yates, M^r Brearly, M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Reed, M^r Carrol, M^r Madison, M^r Williamson, M^r Rutlidge, M^r Houston.

Adj^d.

TUESDAY JULY 10. IN CONVENTION.

M^r King reported from the Com^e yesterday appointed that the States at the 1^{st} meeting of the General Legislature, should be represented by 65 members, in the following proportions, to wit N. Hampshire by 3, Mass^{ts} 8, R. Is^d 1, Con^t 5, N. Y. 6, N. J. 4, P^a 8, Del. 1, M^d 6, V^a 10, N. C. 5, S. C. 5, Georgia 3.

M^r Rutlidge moved that N. Hampshire be reduced from 3 to 2. members. Her numbers did not entitle her to 3 and it was a poor State.

Gen^l Pinkney seconds the motion.

M^r King. N. Hampshire has probably more than 120,000 Inhab^{ts} and has an extensive Country of tolerable fertility. Its inhab^{ts} therefore may be expected to increase fast. He remarked that the four Eastern States, having 800,000 souls, have 1/3 fewer representatives than the four Southern States, having not more than 700,000 souls, rating the blacks as 5 for 3. The Eastern people will advert to these circumstances, and be dissatisfied. He believed them to be very desirous of uniting with their Southern brethren, but did not think it prudent to rely so far on that disposition as to subject them to any gross inequality. He was fully convinced that the question concerning a difference of interests did not lie where it had hitherto been discussed, between the great & small States; but between the Southern & Eastern. For this reason he had been ready to yield something in the proportion of representatives for the security of the Southern. No principle would justify the giving them a majority. They were brought as near an equality as was possible. He was not averse to giving them a still greater security, but did not see how it could be done.

Gen^l Pinkney. The Report before it was committed was more favorable to the S. States than as it now stands. If they are to form so considerable a minority, and the regulation of trade is to be given to the Gen^l Government, they will be nothing more than overseers for the Northern States. He did not expect the S. States to be raised to a majority of representatives, but wished them to have something like an equality. At present by the alterations of the Com^e in favor of the N. States they are removed farther from it than they were before. One member indeed had been added to Virg^a which he was glad of as he considered her as a Southern State. He was glad also that the members of Georgia were increased.

M^r Williamson was not for reducing N. Hampshire from 3 to 2, but for reducing some others. The South^n Interest must be extremely endangered by the present arrangement. The North^n States are to have a majority in the first instance and the means of perpetuating it.

M^r Dayton observed that the line between North^n & Southern interest had been improperly drawn; that P^a was the dividing State, there being six on each side of her.

Gen^l Pinkney urged the reduction, dwelt on the superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted on its having its due weight in the Government.

M^r Gov^r Morris regretted the turn of the debate. The States he found had many Representatives on the floor. Few he fears were to be deemed the Representatives of America. He thought the Southern States have by the report more than their share of representation. Property ought to have its weight, but not all the weight. If the South^n States are to supply money. The North^n States are to spill their blood. Besides, the probable Revenue to be expected from the S. States has been greatly overrated. He was ag^{st} reducing N. Hampshire.

M^r Randolph was opposed to a reduction of N. Hampshire, not because she had a full title to three members; but because it was in his contemplation 1. to make it the duty instead of leaving it in the discretion of the Legislature to regulate the representation by a periodical census. 2. to require more than a bare majority of votes in the Legislature in certain cases & particularly in commercial cases.

On the question for reducing N. Hampshire from 3 to 2 Represent^s it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.
V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.[128]

[128] In printed Journal. N. C. no. Geo. ay. Note in Madison's
hand.

Gen^l Pinkney and M^r Alex^r Martin moved that 6 Rep^s instead of 5 be allowed to N. Carolina.

On the Question, it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.
V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinkney & M^r Butler made the same motion in favor of S. Carolina

On the Question it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay.
M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinckney & M^r Houston moved that Georgia be allowed 4 instead of 3 Rep^s urging the unexampled celerity of its population. On the Question, it passed in the Negative

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.
M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison, moved that the number allowed to each State be doubled. A _majority_ of a _Quorum_ of _65_ members, was too small a number to represent the whole inhabitants of the U. States; They would not possess enough of the confidence of the people, and w^d be too sparsely taken from the people, to bring with them all the local information which would be frequently wanted. Double the number will not be too great, even with the future additions from New States. The additional expence was too inconsiderable to be regarded in so important a case. And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular on that score, the objection was overbalanced by its effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular candidates.

M^r Elseworth urged the objection of expence, & that the greater the number, the more slowly would the business proceed; and the less probably be decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number of Representatives too great in most of the State Legislatures; and that a large number was less necessary in the Gen^l Legislature than in those of the States, as its business would relate to a few great national Objects only.

M^r Sherman would have preferred 50 to 65. The great distance they will have to travel will render their attendance precarious and will make it difficult to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to undertake the service. He observed that the expected increase from new States also deserved consideration.

M^r Gerry was for increasing the number beyond 65. The larger the number, the less the danger of their being corrupted. The people are accustomed to & fond of a numerous representation, and will consider their rights as better secured by it. The danger of excess in the number may be guarded ag^{st} by fixing a point within which the number shall always be kept.

Col. Mason admitted that the objection drawn from the consideration of expence, had weight both in itself, and as the people might be affected by it. But he thought it outweighed by the objections ag^{st} the smallness of the number. 38, will he supposes, as being a majority of 65. form a quorum. 20 will be a majority of 38. This was certainly too small a number to make laws for America. They would neither bring with them all the necessary information relative to various local interests, nor possess the necessary confidence of the people. After doubling the number, the laws might still be made by so few as almost to be objectionable on that account.

M^r Read was in favor of the Motion. Two of the States (Del. & R. I.) would have but a single member if the aggregate number should remain at 65. and in case of accident to either of these one State w^d have no representative present to give explanations or informations of its interests or wishes. The people would not place their confidence in so small a number. He hoped the objects of the Gen^l Gov^t would be much more numerous than seemed to be expected by some gentlemen, and that they would become more & more so. As to New States the highest number of Rep^s for the whole might be limited, and all danger of excess thereby prevented.

M^r Rutlidge opposed the motion. The Representatives were too numerous in all the States. The full number allotted to the States may be expected to attend, & the lowest possible quorum sh^d not therefore be considered. The interests of their Constituents will urge their attendance too strongly for it to be omitted: and he supposed the Gen^l Legislature would not sit more than 6 or 8 weeks in the year.

On the Question for doubling the number, it passed in the negative

Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay.
M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the apportionment of Rep^s as amended by the last committee, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.
V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Broom gave notice to the House that he had concurred with a reserve to himself of an intention to claim for his State an equal voice in the 2^d branch; which he thought could not be denied after this concession of the small States as to the first branch.

M^r Randolph moved as an amendment to the report of the Comm^e of five "that in order to ascertain the alterations in the population & wealth of the several States the Legislature should be required to cause a census, and estimate to be taken within one year after its first meeting; and every ---- years thereafter, and that the Legisl^{re} arrange the Representation accordingly."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed it as fettering the Legislature too much. Advantage may be taken of it in time of war or the apprehension of it, by new States to extort particular favors. If the mode was to be fixed for taking a Census, it might certainly be extremely inconvenient: if unfixt the Legislature may use such a mode as will defeat the object: and perpetuate the inequality. He was always ag^{st} such shackles on the Legisl^{re}. They had been found very pernicious in most of the State Constitutions. He dwelt much on the danger of throwing such a preponderancy into the Western Scale, suggesting that in time the Western people w^d outnumber the Atlantic States. He wished therefore to put it in the power of the latter to keep a majority of votes in their own hands. It was objected he said that if the Legisl^{re} are left at liberty, they will never readjust the Representation. He admitted that this was possible; but he did not think it probable unless the reasons ag^{st} a revision of it were very urgent & in this case, it ought not to be done.

It was moved to postpone the proposition of M^r Randolph in order to take up the following, viz. "that the Committee of Eleven, to whom was referred the report of the Committee of five on the subject of Representation, be requested to furnish the Convention with the principles on which they grounded the Report," which was disagreed to; S. C. alone voting in the affirmative.

Adjourned

WEDNESDAY JULY 11. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Randolph's motion requiring the Legisl^{re} to take a periodical census for the purpose of redressing inequalities in the Representation was resumed.

M^r Sherman was ag^{st}. Shackling the Legislature too much. We ought to choose wise & good men, and then confide in them.

M^r Mason. The greater the difficulty we find in fixing a proper rule of Representation, the more unwilling ought we to be, to throw the task from ourselves on the Gen^l Legisl^{re}. He did not object to the conjectural ratio which was to prevail in the outset; but considered a Revision from time to time according to some permanent & precise standard as essential to y^e fair representation required in the 1^{st} branch. According to the present population of America, the North^n part of it had a right to preponderate, and he could not deny it. But he wished it not to preponderate hereafter when the reason no longer continued. From the nature of man we may be sure that those who have power in their hands will not give it up while they can retain it. On the contrary we know that they will always when they can rather increase it. If the S. States therefore should have 3/4 of the people of America within their limits, the Northern will hold fast the majority of Representatives. 1/4 will govern the 3/4. The S. States will complain; but they may complain from generation to generation without redress. Unless some principle therefore which will do justice to them hereafter shall be inserted in the Constitution, disagreable as the declaration was to him, he must declare he could neither vote for the system here, nor support it, in his State. Strong objections had been drawn from the danger to the Atlantic interests from new Western States. Ought we to sacrifice what we know to be right in itself, lest it should prove favorable to States which are not yet in existence. If the Western States are to be admitted into the Union, as they arise, they must, he w^d repeat, be treated as equals, and subjected to no degrading discriminations. They will have the same pride & other passions which we have and will either not unite with or will speedily revolt from the Union, if they are not in all respects placed on an equal footing with their brethren. It has been said they will be poor, and unable to make equal contributions to the general Treasury. He did not know but that in time they would be both more numerous & more wealthy than their Atlantic brethren. The extent & fertility of their soil, made this probable; and though Spain might for a time deprive them of the natural outlet for their productions, yet she will, because she must, finally yield to their demands. He urged that numbers of inhabitants; though not always a precise standard of wealth was sufficiently so for every substantial purpose.

M^r Williamson was for making it a duty of the Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not to do it. He moved that M^r Randolph's propositions be postpon^d in order to consider the following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken of the free white inhabitants and 3/5^{ths} of those of other descriptions on the 1^{st} year after this Government shall have been adopted and every ---- year thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated accordingly."

M^r Randolph agreed that M^r Williamson's proposition should stand in the place of his. He observed that the ratio fixt for the 1^{st} meeting was a mere conjecture, that it placed the power in the hands of that part of America, which could not always be entitled to it, that this power would not be voluntarily renounced; and that it was consequently the duty of the Convention to secure its renunciation when justice might so require; by some constitutional provisions. If equality between great & small States be inadmissible, because in that case unequal numbers of Constituents w^d be represented by equal number of votes; was it not equally inadmissible that a larger & more populous district of America should hereafter have less representation, than a smaller & less populous district. If a fair representation of the people be not secured, the injustice of the Gov^t will shake it to its foundations. What relates to suffrage is justly stated by the celebrated Montesquieu, as a fundamental article in Republican Gov^t. If the danger suggested by M^r Gov^r Morris be real, of advantage being taken of the Legislature in pressing moments, it was an additional reason, for tying their hands in such a manner that they could not sacrifice their trust to momentary considerations. Cong^s have pledged the public faith to New States, that they shall be admitted on equal terms. They never would or ought to accede on any other. The census must be taken under the direction of the General Legislature. The States will be too much interested to take an impartial one for themselves.

M^r Butler & Gen^l Pinkney insisted that blacks be included in the rule of Representation _equally_ with the whites; and for that purpose moved that the words "three-fifths" be struck out.

M^r Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full proportion that could be admitted.

M^r Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Cong^s as a rule of taxation. Then it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are assured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on y^e former occasion convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote according to the same opinion now.

M^r Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carol^a was as productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Mass^{ts}, that as wealth was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they were equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was instituted principally for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.

M^r Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virg^a because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding & supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the Community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of Representation. He could not however regard them as equal to freemen and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above the other species of property common to all the States.

M^r Williamson reminded M^r Ghorum that if the South^n States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did not however either then or now concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of 3/5.

On M^r Butler's motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the apportionm^t of Representation

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J. no. P^a no.
Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of M^r Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. it would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to entitle them to a single Representative. 3. it will not consist with the Resolution passed on Saturday last authorizing the Legislature to adjust the Representation from time to time on the principles of population & wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth then the s^d Resolution would not be pursued. If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included? These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers & wealth of different countries, rendered all reasoning superfluous on the subject. Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain, ag^{st} her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even in this respect.

M^r King thought there was great force in the objections of M^r Gov^r Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing something.

M^r Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers; they sh^d not therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will not concur in such a plan. He moved that "at the end of ---- years after the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature, and of every ---- years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population."

M^r Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observation of (M^r Randolph & M^r Mason), that the _periods_ & the _rule_, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Constitution.

M^r Reed thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It would make the Constitution like Religious Creeds, embarrassing to those bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and scism, than harmony and union.

M^r Mason objected to M^r Rutlidge's motion, as requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for doing nothing.

M^r Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.

M^r Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little biassed by local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the Legislature hereafter under the full biass of those views, will be able to settle a standard. He was convinced by the arguments of others & his own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or other.