Chapter IX: Part 9

M^r Madison was of opinion that there was 1. less danger of encroachment from the Gen^l Gov^t than from the State Gov^{ts} 2. that the mischief from encroachments would be less fatal if made by the former, than if made by the latter. 1. All the examples of other confederacies prove the greater tendency in such systems to anarchy than to tyranny; to a disobedience of the members than usurpations of the federal head. Our own experience had fully illustrated this tendency.--But it will be said that the proposed change in the principles & form of the Union will vary the tendency; that the Gen^l Gov^t will have real & greater powers, and will be derived in one branch at least from the people, not from the Gov^{ts} of the States. To give full force to this objection, let it be supposed for a moment that indefinite power should be given to the Gen^l Legislature, and the States reduced to Corporations dependent on the Gen^l Legislature; Why sh^d it follow that the Gen^l Gov^t w^d take from the States any branch of their power as far as its operation was beneficial, and its continuance desireable to the people? In some of the States, particularly in Connecticut, all the Townships are incorporated, and have a certain limited jurisdiction. Have the Representatives of the people of the Townships in the Legislature of the State ever endeavoured to despoil the Townships of any part of their local authority? As far as this local authority is convenient to the people they are attached to it; and their representatives chosen by & amenable to them, naturally respect their attachment to this, as much as their attachment to any other right or interest. The relation of a General Gov^t to State Gov^{ts} is parallel. 2. Guards were more necessary ag^{st} encroachments of the State Gov^{ts} on the Gen^l Gov^t than of the latter on the former. The great objection made ag^{st} an abolition of the State Gov^{ts} was that the Gen^l Gov^t could not extend its care to all the minute objects which fall under the cognizance of the local jurisdictions. The objection as stated lay not ag^{st} the probable abuse of the general power, but ag^{st} the imperfect use that could be made of it throughout so great an extent of country, and over so great a variety of objects. As far as its operation would be practicable it could not in this view be improper; as far as it would be impracticable, the conveniency of the Gen^l Gov^t itself would concur with that of the people in the maintenance of subordinate Governments. Were it practicable for the Gen^l Gov^t to extend its care to every requisite object without the cooperation of the State Gov^{ts} the people would not be less free as members of one great Republic than as members of thirteen small ones. A Citizen of Delaware was not more free than a Citizen of Virginia: nor would either be more free than a Citizen of America. Supposing therefore a tendency in the Gen^l Government to absorb the State Gov^{ts} no fatal consequence could result. Taking the reverse as the supposition, that a tendency should be left in the State Gov^{ts} towards an independence on the General Gov^t and the gloomy consequences need not be pointed out. The imagination of them, must have suggested to the States the experiment we are now making to prevent the calamity, and must have formed the chief motive with those present to undertake the arduous task.

On the question for resolving "that the Legislature ought to consist of two Branches"

Mass. ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. Jersey, no. P^a ay.
Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The _third_ resolution of the Report taken into consideration.

Gen^l Pinkney moved "that the 1^{st} branch, instead of being elected by the people, sh^d be elected in such manner as the Legislature of each State should direct." He urged 1. that this liberty would give more satisfaction, as the Legislatures could then accommodate the mode to the conveniency & opinions of the people. 2. that it would avoid the undue influence of large Counties which would prevail if the elections were to be made in districts as must be the mode intended by the Report of the Committee. 3. that otherwise disputed elections must be referred to the General Legislature which would be attended with intolerable expence and trouble to the distant parts of the Republic.

M^r L. Martin seconded the Motion.[96]

[96] After Martin's second, according to Yates:
"M^r Madison. I oppose the motion--there are no
difficulties, but they may be obviated in the details
connected with the subject."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_,
etc., 149.

Col. Hamilton considered the Motion as intended manifestly to transfer the election from the people to the State Legislatures, which would essentially vitiate the plan. It would increase that State influence which could not be too watchfully guarded ag^{st}. All too must admit the possibility, in case the Gen^l Gov^t sh^d maintain itself, that the State Gov^{ts} might gradually dwindle into nothing. The system therefore sh^d not be engrafted on what might possibly fail.

M^r Mason urged the necessity of retaining the election by the people. Whatever inconveniency may attend the democratic principle, it must actuate one part of the Gov^t. It is the only security for the rights of the people.

M^r Sherman, would like an election by the Legislatures best, but is content with the plan as it stands.

M^r Rutlidge could not admit the solidity of the distinction between a mediate & immediate election by the people. It was the same thing to act by oneself, and to act by another. An election by the Legislature would be more refined than an election immediately by the people: and would be more likely to correspond with the sense of the whole community. If this Convention had been chosen by the people in districts it is not to be supposed that such proper characters would have been preferred. The Delegates to Cong^s he thought had also been fitter men than would have been appointed by the people at large.

M^r Wilson considered the election of the 1^{st} branch by the people not only as the Corner Stone, but as the foundation of the fabric: and that the difference between a mediate & immediate election was immense. The difference was particularly worthy of notice in this respect: that the Legislatures are actuated not merely by the sentiment of the people; but have an official sentiment opposed to that of the Gen^l Gov^t and perhaps to that of the people themselves.

M^r King enlarged on the same distinction. He supposed the Legislatures w^d constantly choose men subservient to their own views as contrasted to the general interest; and that they might even devise modes of election that w^d be subversive of the end in view. He remarked several instances in which the views of a State might be at variance with those of the Gen^l Gov^t: and mentioned particularly a competition between the National & State debts, for the most certain & productive funds.

Gen^l Pinkney was for making the State Gov^{ts} a part of the General System. If they were to be abolished, or lose their agency, S. Carolina & other States would have but a small share of the benefits of Gov^t.

On the question for Gen^l Pinkney motion to substitute election of the 1^{st} branch in such mode as the Legislatures should appoint, in stead of its being elected by the people"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay.
M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

General Pinkney then moved that the 1^{st} branch be elected _by the people_ in such mode as the Legislatures should direct; but waived it on its being hinted that such a provision might be more properly tried in the detail of the plan.

On the question for y^e election of the 1^{st} branch by the _people_"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.
M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Election of the 1^{st} branch "for the term of three years," considered.

M^r Randolph moved to strike out, "three years" and insert "two years"--he was sensible that annual elections were a source of great mischiefs in the States, yet it was the want of such checks ag^{st} the popular intemperence as were now proposed, that rendered them so mischievous. He would have preferred annual to biennial, but for the extent of the U. S. and the inconveniency which would result from them to the representatives of the extreme parts of the Empire. The people were attached to frequency of elections. All the Constitutions of the States except that of S. Carolina, had established annual elections.

M^r Dickinson. The idea of annual elections was borrowed from the antient Usage of England, a country much less extensive than ours. He supposed biennial would be inconvenient. He preferred triennial, and in order to prevent the inconveniency of an entire change of the whole number at the same moment, suggested a rotation, by an annual election of one third.

M^r Elseworth was opposed to three years, supposing that even one year was preferable to two years. The people were fond of frequent elections and might be safely indulged in one branch of the Legislature. He moved for 1 year.

M^r Strong[97] seconded & supported the motion.

[97] "M^r Strong is a Lawyer of some eminence,--he has
received a liberal education, and has good connections to
recommend him. As a speaker he is feeble, and without
confidence. This Gent^n is about thirty five years of age,
and greatly in the esteem of his Colleagues."--Pierce's
Notes, _Amer. Hist. Rev._ iii., 326.

M^r Wilson being for making the 1^{st} branch an effectual representation of the people at large, preferred an annual election of it. This frequency was most familiar & pleasing to the people. It would not be more inconvenient to them, than triennial elections, as the people in all the States have annual meetings with which the election of the National representatives might be made to co-incide. He did not conceive that it would be necessary for the Nat^l Leigsl: to sit constantly; perhaps not half--perhaps not one fourth of the year.

M^r Madison was persuaded that annual elections would be extremely inconvenient and apprehensive that biennial would be too much so; he did not mean inconvenient to the electors; but to the representatives. They would have to travel seven or eight hundred miles from the distant parts of the Union; and would probably not be allowed even a reimbursement of their expences. Besides, none of those who wished to be re-elected would remain at the seat of Governm^t; confiding that their absence would not affect them. The members of Cong^s had done this with few instances of disappointment. But as the choice was here to be made by the people themselves who would be much less complaisant to individuals, and much more susceptible of impressions from the presence of a Rival candidate, it must be supposed that the members from the most distant States would travel backwards & forwards at least as often as the elections should be repeated. Much was to be said also on the time requisite for new Members who would always form a large proportion, to acquire that knowledge of the affairs of the States in general without which their trust could not be usefully discharged.

M^r Sherman preferred annual elections, but would be content with biennial. He thought the Representatives ought to return home and mix with the people. By remaining at the seat of Gov^t they would acquire the habits of the place which might differ from those of their Constituents.

Col. Mason observed that the States being differently situated such a rule ought to be formed as would put them as nearly as possible on a level. If elections were annual the middle States would have a great advantage over the extreme ones. He wished them to be biennial; and the rather as in that case they would coincide with the periodical elections of S. Carolina as well of the other States.

Col. Hamilton urged the necessity of 3 years, there ought to be neither too much nor too little dependence, on the popular sentiments. The checks in the other branches of the Govern^t would be but feeble, and would need every auxiliary principle that could be interwoven. The British House of Commons were elected septennially, yet the democratic spirit of y^e Constitution had not ceased. Frequency of elections tended to make the people listless to them; and to facilitate the success of little cabals. This evil was complained of in all the States. In Virg^a it had been lately found necessary to force the attendance & voting of the people by severe regulations.

On the question for striking out "three years"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. div^d. P^a ay. Del. no.
M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

The motion for "two years" was then inserted nem. con.

Adj^d.

FRIDAY JUNE 22. IN CONVENTION

The clause in Resol. 3 "to receive fixed stipends to be paid out of the Nation^l Treasury" considered.

M^r Elseworth, moved to substitute payment by the States out of their own Treasurys: observing that the manners of different States were very different in the stile of living and in the profits accruing from the exercise of like talents. What would be deemed therefore a reasonable compensation in some States, in others would be very unpopular, and might impede the system of which it made a part.

M^r Williamson favored the idea. He reminded the House of the prospect of new States to the Westward. They would be too poor--would pay little into the common Treasury--and would have a different interest from the old States. He did not think therefore that the latter ought to pay the expences of men who would be employed in thwarting their measures & interests.

M^r Ghorum[98] wished not to refer the matter to the State Legislatures who were always paring down salaries in such a manner as to keep out of offices men most capable of executing the functions of them. He thought also it would be wrong to fix the compensations by the constitution, because we could not venture to make it as liberal as it ought to be without exciting an enmity ag^{st} the whole plan. Let the Nat^l Legisl: provide for their own wages from time to time; as the State Legislatures do. He had not seen this part of their power abused, nor did he apprehend an abuse of it.

[98] "M^r Gorham is a merchant in Boston, high in reputation,
and much in the esteem of his country-men. He is a man of
very good sense, but not much improved in his education. He
is eloquent and easy in public debate, but has nothing
fashionable or elegant in his style;--all he aims at is to
convince, and where he fails it never is from his auditory
not understanding him, for no man is more perspicuous and
full. He has been President of Congress, and three years a
Member of that Body. M^r Gorham is about 46 years of age,
rather lusty, and has an agreeable and pleasing
manner."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 325.

M^r Randolph said he feared we were going too far, in consulting popular prejudices. Whatever respect might be due to them, in lesser matters, or in cases where they formed the permanent character of the people, he thought it neither incumbent on nor honorable for the Convention, to sacrifice right & justice to that consideration. If the States were to pay the members of the Nat^l Legislature, a dependence would be created that would vitiate the whole System. The whole nation has an interest in the attendance & services of the members. The Nation^l Treasury therefore is the proper fund for supporting them.

M^r King, urged the danger of creating a dependence on the States by leav^g to them the payment of the members of the Nat^l Legislature. He supposed it w^d be best to be explicit as to the compensation to be allowed. A reserve on that point, or a reference to the Nat^l Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum that would be actually necessary or proper.

M^r Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of it to the State Legislatures.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} _fixing_ the compensation as circumstances would change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great moment that the members of the Nat^l Gov^t should be left as independent as possible of the State Gov^{ts} in all respects.

M^r Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations for the Nat^l Gov^t independent on the State Gov^{ts} but at the same time approved of _fixing_ them by the Constitution, which might be done by taking a standard which w^d not vary with circumstances. He disliked particularly the policy suggested by M^r Williamson of leaving the members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious & parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and respectable characters into the service.

M^r Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from _fixing_ the wages. He was strenuous ag^{st} making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Gov^t. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the _people_--& the _Governments_ of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1^{st} branch "_be ascertained by the National Legislature_," and be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.

M^r Madison, thought the members of the Legis^l too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It w^d be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.

On this question Mass. no. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay.
P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for striking out "Nat^l Treasury" as moved by M^r Elseworth.

M^r Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Gov^{ts} & the people. The former w^d be the rivals of the Gen^l Gov^t. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.

M^r Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Gov^{ts} they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Gov^t such powers because we c^d not trust you. Will they adopt it, and with^t y^r approbation it is a nullity.[99]

[99] According to Yates, Wilson followed Ellsworth:
"Mr. Wilson. I am not for submitting the national government
to the approbation of the state legislatures. I know that
they and the state officers will oppose it. I am for
carrying it to the people of each state."--Yates, _Secret
Proceedings_, etc., 153.

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. no. Pen^a no.
Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.[100]

[100] (It appeared that Mass^{ts} concurred, not because they
thought the State Treas^y ought to be substituted; but
because they thought nothing should be said on the subject,
in which case it w^d silently devolve on the Nat^l Treasury
to support the National Legislature.)--Madison's Note.

On a question for substituting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of _fixing_ the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.

It was then moved by M^r Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The Presid^t refer^d the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. M^d N. C. S. C.--ay.--N. Y. P^a V^a Geo. no.--Mass. divided. The question on the sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.

Col. Mason moved to insert "twenty-five years of age as a qualification for the members of the 1^{st} branch." He thought it absurd that a man today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself, and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Cong^s had proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their own education.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} abridging the rights of election in any shape. It was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating _youth_ than _age_, where the requisite qualifications were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The present M^r Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.

On the question for inserting "25 years of age"

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no.
Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Ghorum moved to strike out the last member of the 3 Resol: concerning ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to office during the term of their membership & for one year after. He considered it as unnecessary & injurious. It was true abuses had been displayed in G. B. but no one c^d say how far they might have contributed to preserve the due influence of the Gov^t nor what might have ensued in case the contrary theory had been tried.

M^r Butler opposed it. This precaution ag^{st} intrigue was necessary. He appealed to the example of G. B. where men got into Parl^t that they might get offices for themselves or their friends. This was the source of the corruption that ruined their Gov^t.

M^r King, thought we were refining too much. Such a restriction on the members would discourage merit. It would also give a pretext to the Executive for bad appointments, as he might always plead this as a bar to the choice he wished to have made.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} fettering elections, and discouraging merit. He suggested also the fatal consequence in time of war, of rendering perhaps the best Commanders ineligible; appealing to our situation during the late war, and indirectly leading to a recollection of the appointment of the Co[~m]ander in Chief out of Congress.[101]

[101] According to Yates, Madison followed Wilson:

"Mr. Madison. Some gentlemen give too much weight and others
too little to this subject. If you have no exclusive clause,
there may be danger of creating offices or augmenting the
stipends of those already created, in order to gratify some
members if they were not excluded. Such an instance has
fallen within my own observation. I am therefore of opinion,
that no office ought to be open to a member, which may be
created or augmented while he is in the
legislature."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 155. Yates
gives the rest of the debate as follows:

"Mr. Mason. It seems as if it was taken for granted,
that all offices will be filled by the executive,
while I think many will remain in the gift of the
legislature. In either case, it is necessary to shut
the door against corruption. If otherwise, they may
make or multiply offices, in order to fill them. Are
gentlemen in earnest when they suppose that this
exclusion will prevent the first characters from
coming forward? Are we not struck at seeing the
luxury and venality which has already crept in among
us? If not checked we shall have ambassadors to
every petty state in Europe--the little republic of
_St. Marino_ not excepted. We must in the present
system remove the temptation. I admire many parts of
the British constitution and government, but I
detest their corruption.--Why has the power of the
crown so remarkably increased the last century? A
stranger, by reading their laws, would suppose it
considerably diminished; and yet, by the sole power
of appointing the increased officers of government,
corruption pervades every town and village in the
kingdom. If such a restriction should abridge the
right of election, it is still necessary, as it will
prevent the people from ruining themselves; and will
not the same causes here produce the same effects? I
consider this clause as the corner-stone on which
our liberties depend--and if we strike it out we are
erecting a fabric for our destruction.

"Mr. Gorham. The corruption of the English
government cannot be applied to America. This evil
exists there in the venality of their boroughs; but
even this corruption has its advantage, as it gives
stability to their government. We do not know what
the effect would be if members of parliament were
excluded from offices. The great bulwark of our
liberty is the frequency of elections, and the great
danger is the septennial parliaments.

"Mr. Hamilton. In all general questions which become
the subjects of discussion, there are always some
truths mixed with falsehoods. I confess there is
danger where men are capable of holding two offices.
Take mankind in general, they are vicious--their
passions may be operated upon. We have been taught
to reprobate the danger of influence in the British
government, without duly reflecting how far it was
necessary to support a good government. We have
taken up many ideas on trust, and at last, pleased
with their own opinions, establish them as undoubted
truths. Hume's opinion of the British constitution
confirms the remark, that there is always a body of
firm patriots, who often shake a corrupt
administration. Take mankind as they are, and what
are they governed by? Their passions. There may be
in every government a few choice spirits, who may
act from more worthy motives. One great error is
that we suppose mankind more honest than they are.
Our prevailing passions are ambition and interest;
and it will ever be the duty of a wise government to
avail itself of those passions, in order to make
them subservient to the public good--for these ever
induce us to action. Perhaps a few men in a state,
may, from patriotic motives, or to display their
talents, or to reap the advantage of public
applause, step forward; but if we adopt the clause,
we destroy the motive. I am therefore against all
exclusions and refinements, except only in this
case; that when a member takes his seat, he should
vacate every other office. It is difficult to put
any exclusive regulation into effect. We must in
some degree submit to the inconvenience."--Yates,
_Secret Proceedings_, etc., 155, 156.

Col. Mason was for shutting the door at all events ag^{st} corruption. He enlarged on the venality and abuses in this particular in G. Britain: and alluded to the multiplicity of foreign Embassies by Cong^s. The disqualification he regarded as a corner stone in the fabric.

Col. Hamilton, there are inconveniences on both sides. We must take man as we find him, and if we expect him to serve the public must interest his passions in doing so. A reliance on pure patriotism had been the source of many of our errors. He thought the remark of M^r Ghorum a just one. It was impossible to say what w^d be the effect in G. B. of such a reform as had been urged. It was known that one of the ablest politicians (M^r Hume) had pronounced all that influence on the side of the crown, which went under the name of corruption, an essential part of the weight which maintained the equilibrium of the Constitution.

On M^r Ghorum's Motion for striking out "ineligibility,"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a div^d.
Del. div^d. Mar^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G^a ay.

Adj^d.

SATURDAY JUNE 23. IN CONVENTION

The 3^d Resol: resumed.

On Question yesterday postponed by S. Carol: for agreeing to the whole sentence "for allowing an adequate compensation to be paid out of the _Treasury of the U. States_"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pen^a ay. Del. no.
M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. divided. So the question
was lost, & the sentence not inserted:

Gen^l Pinkney moves to strike out the ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to offices established "by a particular State." He argued from the inconveniency to which such a restriction would expose both the members of the 1^{st} branch, and the States wishing for their services; & from the smallness of the object to be attained by the restriction.

It w^d seem from the ideas of some that we are erecting a Kingdom to be divided ag^{st} itself,[102] he disapproved such a fetter on the Legislature.

[102] According to Yates Wilson followed Pinckney:
"Mr. Wilson. I perceive that some gentlemen are of opinion
to give a bias in favor of state governments. This question
ought to stand on the same footing."--Yates, _Secret
Proceedings_, etc., 157.

M^r Sherman seconds the motion. It w^d seem that we are erecting a Kingdom at war with itself. The Legislature ought not to [be] fettered in such a case. On the question

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. M^d div^d.
Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison renewed his motion yesterday made & waved to render the members of the 1^{st} branch "ineligible during their term of service, & for one year after--to such offices only as should be established, or the emoluments thereof augmented, by the Legislature of the U. States during the time of their being members." He supposed that the unnecessary creation of offices, and increase of salaries, were the evils most experienced, & that if the door was shut ag^{st} them: it might properly be left open for the appoint^t of members to other offices as an encouragem^t to the Legislative service.

M^r Alex: Martin[103] seconded the Motion.

[103] "Mr. Martin was lately Governor of North Carolina, which
office he filled with credit. He is a man of sense, and
undoubtedly is a good politician, but he is not formed to
shine in public debate, being no speaker. Mr. Martin was
once a Colonel in the American Army, but proved unfit for
the field. He is about 40 years of age."--Pierce's Notes,
_Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 332.

M^r Butler. The amend^t does not go far eno. & w^d be easily evaded.

M^r Rutlidge, was for preserving the Legislature as pure as possible, by shutting the door against appointments of its own members to offices, which was one source of its corruption.

M^r Mason.[104] The motion of my colleague is but a partial remedy for the evil. He appealed to him as a witness of the shameful partiality of the Legislature of Virginia to its own members. He enlarged on the abuses & corruption in the British Parliament, connected with the appointment of its members. He c^d not suppose that a sufficient number of Citizens could not be found who would be ready, without the inducement of eligibility to offices, to undertake the Legislative service. Genius & virtue it may be said, ought to be encouraged. Genius, for aught he knew, might, but that virtue should be encouraged by such a species of venality, was an idea, that at least had the merit of being new.

[104] Yates gives Mason's speech more fully and a speech by
Madison omitted here:

"Mr. Mason. I differ from my colleague in his proposed
amendment. Let me state the practice in the state where we
came from. There, all officers are appointed by the
legislature. Need I add, that many of their appointments are
most shameful. Nor will the check proposed by this amendment
be sufficient. It will soon cease to be any check at all. It
is asserted that it will be very difficult to find men
sufficiently qualified as legislators without the inducement
of emolument. I do believe that men of genius will be
deterred unless possessed of great virtues. We may well
dispense with the first characters when destitute of
virtue--I should wish them never to come forward--But if we
do not provide against corruption, our government will soon
be at an end; nor would I wish to put a man of virtue in the
way of temptation. Evasions and caballing would evade the
amendment. Nor would the danger be less, if the executive
has the appointment of officers. The first three or four
years we might go on well enough; but what would be the case
afterwards? I will add, that such a government ought to be
refused by the people--and it will be refused.

"Mr. Madison. My wish is that the national legislature be as
uncorrupt as possible. I believe all public bodies are
inclined, from various motives, to support its members; but
it is not always done from the base motives of venality.
Friendship, and a knowledge of the abilities of those with
whom they associate, may produce it. If you bar the door
against such attachments, you deprive the government of its
greatest strength and support. Can you always rely on the
patriotism of the members? If this be the only inducement,
you will find a great indifferency in filling your
legislative body. If we expect to call forth useful
characters, we must hold out allurements; nor can any great
inconveniency arise from such inducements. The legislative
body must be the road to public honor; and the advantage
will be greater to adopt my motion, than any possible
inconvenience."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 158.

M^r King remarked that we were refining too much in this business; and that the idea of preventing intrigue and solicitation of offices was chimerical. You say that no member shall himself be eligible to any office. Will this restrain him from availing himself of the same means which would gain appointments for himself, to gain them for his son, his brother, or any other object of his partiality. We were losing therefore the advantages on one side, without avoiding the evils on the other.

M^r Wilson supported the motion. The proper cure he said for corruption in the Legislature was to take from it the power of appointing to offices. One branch of corruption would indeed remain, that of creating unnecessary offices, or granting unnecessary salaries, and for that the amendment would be a proper remedy. He animadverted on the impropriety of stigmatizing with the name of venality the laudable ambition of rising into the honorable offices of the Government; an ambition most likely to be felt in the early & most incorrupt period of life, & which all wise & free Gov^{ts} had deemed it sound policy, to cherish, not to check. The members of the Legislature have perhaps the hardest & least profitable task of any who engage in the service of the state. Ought this merit to be made a disqualification?

M^r Sherman observed that the motion did not go far enough. It might be evaded by the creation of a new office, the translation to it of a person from another office, and the appointment of a member of the Legislature to the latter. A new Embassy might be established to a new Court, & an ambassador taken from another, in order to _create_ a vacancy for a favorite member. He admitted that inconveniences lay on both sides. He hoped there w^d be sufficient inducements to the public service without resorting to the prospect of desirable offices, and on the whole was rather ag^{st} the motion of M^r Madison.

M^r Gerry thought there was great weight in the objection of M^r Sherman. He added as another objection ag^{st} admitting the eligibility of members in any case that it would produce intrigues of ambitious men for displacing proper officers, in order to create vacancies for themselves.[105] In answer to M^r King he observed that although members, if disqualified themselves might still intrigue & cabal for their sons, brothers &c., yet as their own interests would be dearer to them, than those of their nearest connections, it might be expected they would go greater lengths to promote it.

[105] Yates gives Gerry's remarks:
"This amendment is of great weight, and its consequences
ought to be well considered. At the beginning of the war, we
possessed more than Roman virtue. It appears to me it is now
the reverse. We have more land and stock-jobbers than any
place on earth. It appears to me that we have constantly
endeavored to keep distinct the three great branches of
government; but if we agree to this motion, it must be
destroyed by admitting the legislators to share in the
executive, or to be too much influenced by the executive, in
looking up to them for offices."--Yates, _Secret
Proceedings_, etc., 160.

M^r Madison had been led to this motion as a middle ground between an eligibility in all cases, and an absolute disqualification. He admitted the probable abuses of an eligibility of the members, to offices particularly within the gift of the Legislature. He had witnessed the partiality of such bodies to their own members, as had been remarked of the Virginia Assembly by his colleague (Col. Mason). He appealed however to him, in turn to vouch another fact not less notorious in Virginia, that the backwardness of the best citizens to engage in the Legislative service gave but too great success to unfit characters. The question was not to be viewed on one side only. The advantages & disadvantages on both ought to be fairly compared. The objects to be aimed at were to fill all offices with the fittest characters, & to draw the wisest & most worthy citizens into the Legislative service. If on one hand, public bodies were partial to their own members; on the other they were as apt to be misled by taking characters on report, or the authority of patrons and dependents.

All who had been concerned in the appointment of strangers on those recommendations must be sensible of this truth. Nor w^d the partialities of such Bodies be obviated by disqualifying their own members. Candidates for office would hover round the seat of Gov^t or be found among the residents there, and practise all the means of counting the favor of the members. A great proportion of the appointments made by the States were evidently brought about in this way. In the General Gov^t the evil must be still greater, the characters of distant states, being much less known throughout the U. States than those of the distant parts of the same State. The elections by Congress had generally turned on men living at the seat of the fed^l Gov^t or in its neighbourhood.--As to the next object, the impulse to the Legislative service, was evinced by experience to be in general too feeble with those best qualified for it. This inconveniency w^d also be more felt in the Nat^l Gov^t than in the State Gov^{ts} as the Sacrifices req^d from the distant members, w^d be much greater, and the pecuniary provisions, probably, more disproportionate. It w^d therefore be impolitic to add fresh objections to the Legislative service by an absolute disqualification of its members. The point in question was whether this would be an objection with the most capable citizens. Arguing from experience he concluded that it would. The Legislature of Virg^a would probably have been without many of its best members, if in that situation, they had been ineligible to Cong^s to the Gov^t & other honorable offices of the State.

M^r Butler thought Characters fit for office w^d never be unknown.

Col. Mason. If the members of the Legislature are disqualified, still the honors of the State will induce those who aspire to them to enter that service, as the field in which they can best display & improve their talents, & lay the train for their subsequent advancement.

M^r Jenifer remarked that in Maryland, the Senators chosen for five years, c^d hold no other office & that this circumstance gained them the greatest confidence of the people.

On the question for agreeing to the motion of M^r Madison,

Mass^{ts} div^d. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no.
Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman mov^d to insert the words "and incapable of holding" after the words "eligible to offices" w^{ch} was agreed to without opposition.

The word "established" & the words "Nat^l Gov^t" were struck out of the Resolution 3^d.

M^r Spaight called for a division of the question, in consequence of which it was so put, as that it turned in the first member of it, "on the ineligibility of members _during the term for which they were elected_"--whereon the States were,

Mass^{ts} div^d. C^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no.
Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On the 2^d member of the sentence extending ineligibility of members to one year after the term for which they were elected Col. Mason thought this essential to guard ag^{st} evasions by resignations, and stipulations for office to be filled at the expiration of the legislative term. M^r Gerry, had known such a case. M^r Hamilton. Evasions c^d not be prevented--as by proxies--by friends holding for a year, & then opening the way &c. M^r Rutlidge admitted the possibility of evasions, but was for contracting them as possible.

Mass. no. C^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. ay.
Mar^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

MONDAY, JUNE 25. IN CONVENTION.

Resolution 4. being taken up.

M^r Pinkney spoke as follows--[106] The efficacy of the System will depend on this article. In order to form a right judgm^t in the case, it will be proper to examine the situation of this Country more accurately than it has yet been done. The people of the U. States are perhaps the most singular of any we are acquainted with. Among them there are fewer distinctions of fortune & less of rank, than among the inhabitants of any other nation. Every freeman has a right to the same protection & security; and a very moderate share of property entitles them to the possession of all the honors and privileges the Public can bestow: hence arises a greater equality, than is to be found among the people of any other Country, and an equality which is more likely to continue--I say this equality is likely to continue, because in a new Country, possessing immense tracts of uncultivated lands, where every temptation is offered to emigration & where industry must be rewarded with competency, there will be few poor, and few dependent--Every member of the Society almost, will enjoy an equal power of arriving at the supreme offices & consequently of directing the strength & sentiments of the whole Community. None will be excluded by birth, & few by fortune, from voting for proper persons to fill the offices of Government--the whole community will enjoy in the fullest sense that kind of political liberty which consists in the power the members of the State reserve to themselves, of arriving at the Public offices, or at least, of having votes in the nomination of those who fill them.

[106] Pinckney furnished Madison with a copy of this speech
which he transcribed, but apparently not with the whole of
it, as Madison's note at the end indicates. The original
Pinckney draft is among the Madison papers, and shows
Madison's copying to have been accurate.

If this State of things is true & the prospect of its continuing probable, it is perhaps not politic to endeavour too close an imitation of a Government calculated for a people whose situation is, & whose views ought to be extremely different.

Much has been said of the Constitution of G. Britain. I will confess that I believe it to be the best Constitution in existence; but at the same time I am confident it is one that will not or cannot be introduced into this Country, for many centuries.--If it were proper to go here into a historical dissertation on the British Constitution, it might easily be shewn that the peculiar excellence, the distinguishing feature of that Governm^t cannot possibly be introduced into our System--that its balance between the Crown & the people cannot be made a part of our Constitution,--that we neither have nor can have the members to compose it, nor the rights, privileges & properties of so distinct a class of Citizens to guard,--that the materials for forming this balance or check do not exist, nor is there a necessity for having so permanent a part of our Legislative, until the Executive power is so constituted as to have something fixed & dangerous in its principle--By this I mean a sole, hereditary, though limited Executive.

That we cannot have a proper body for forming a Legislative balance between the inordinate power of the Executive and the people, is evident from a review of the accidents & circumstances which gave rise to the peerage of Great Britain--I believe it is well ascertained that the parts which compose the British Constitution arose immediately from the forests of Germany; but the antiquity of the establishment of Nobility is by no means clearly defined. Some authors are of opinion that the dignity denoted by the titles of dux et comes, was derived from the old Roman to the German Empire; while others are of the opinion that they existed among the Germans long before the Romans were acquainted with them. The institution however of Nobility is immemorial among the Nations who may properly be termed the ancestors of Britain.--At the time they were summoned in England to become a part of the National Council, the circumstances which contributed to make them a Constituent part of that constitution, must be well known to all gentlemen who have had industry & curiosity enough to investigate the subject--The Nobles with their possessions & dependents composed a body permanent in their nature and formidable in point of power. They had a distinct interest both from the King and the people; an interest which could only be represented by themselves, and the guardianship could not be safely intrusted to others.--At the time they were originally called to form a part of the National Council, necessity perhaps as much as other cause, induced the Monarch to look up to them. It was necessary to demand the aid of his subjects in personal & pecuniary services. The power and possessions of the Nobility would not permit taxation from any Assembly of which they were not a part: & the blending the Deputies of the Commons with them, & thus forming what they called their parlerment was perhaps as much the effect of chance as of any thing else. The Commons were at that time compleatly subordinate to the nobles, whose consequence & influence seem to have been the only reasons for their superiority; a superiority so degrading to the Commons that in the first summons we find the peers are called upon to consult the commons to consent. From this time the peers have composed a part of the British Legislature, and notwithstanding their power and influence have diminished & those of the Commons have increased, yet still they have always formed an excellent balance ag^{st} either the encroachments of the Crown or the people.

I have said that such a body cannot exist in this Country for ages, and that untill the situation of our people is exceedingly changed no necessity will exist for so permanent a part of the Legislature. To illustrate this I have remarked that the people of the United States are more equal in their circumstances than the people of any other Country--that they have very few rich men among them,--by rich men I mean those whose riches may have a dangerous influence, or such as are esteemed rich in Europe--perhaps there are not one hundred such on the Continent; that it is not probable this number will be greatly increased; that the genius of the people their mediocrity of situation & the prospects which are afforded their industry in a Country which must be a new one for centuries are unfavorable to the rapid distinction of ranks. The destruction of the right of primogeniture & the equal division of the property of Intestates will also have an effect to preserve this mediocrity; for laws invariably affect the manners of a people. On the other hand that vast extent of unpeopled territory which opens to the frugal & industrious a sure road to competency & independence will effectually prevent for a considerable time the increase of the poor or discontented, and be the means of preserving that equality of condition which so eminently distinguishes us.

If equality is as I contend the leading feature of the U. States, where then are the riches & wealth whose representation & protection is the peculiar province of this Permanent body. Are they in the hands of the few who may be called rich; in the possession of less than a hundred citizens? Certainly not. They are in the great body of the people, among whom there are no men of wealth, and very few of real poverty.--Is it probable that a change will be created, and that a new order of men will arise? If under the British Government, for a century no such change was probable, I think it may be fairly concluded it will not take place while even the semblance of Republicanism remains.--How is this change to be effected? Where are the sources from whence it is to flow? From the landed interest? No. That is too unproductive & too much divided in most of the States. From the Monied interest? If such exists at present, little is to be apprehended from that source. Is it to spring from commerce? I believe it would be the first instance in which a nobility sprang from merchants. Besides, Sir, I apprehend that on this point the policy of the U. States has been much mistaken. We have unwisely considered ourselves as the inhabitants of an old instead of a new country. We have adopted the maxims of a State full of people & manufactures & established in credit. We have deserted our true interest, and instead of applying closely to those improvements in domestic policy which would have ensured the future importance of our commerce, we have rashly & prematurely engaged in schemes as extensive as they are imprudent. This however is an error which daily corrects itself & I have no doubt that a few more severe trials will convince us, that very different commercial principles ought to govern the conduct of these States.

The people of this Country are not only very different from the inhabitants of any State we are acquainted with in the modern world; but I assert that their situation is distinct from either the people of Greece or Rome, or of any State we are acquainted with among the antients.--Can the orders introduced by the institution of Solon, can they be found in the United States? Can the military habits & manners of Sparta be resembled to our habits & manners? Are the distinction of Patrician & Plebeian known among us? Can the Helvetic or Belgic confederacies, or can the unwieldy, unmeaning body called the Germanic Empire, can they be said to possess either the same or a situation like ours? I apprehend not.--They are perfectly different, in their distinctions of rank, their Constitutions, their manners & their policy.