Chapter XIV: Part 14

M^r Gov^r Morris. The arg^{ts} of others & his own reflections had led him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. The remarks of (M^r Mason) relative to the Western Country had not changed his opinion on that head. Among other objections it must be apparent they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened, to share in the administration of our common interests. The Busy haunts of men not the remote wilderness, was the proper school of political Talents. If the Western people get the power into their hands they will ruin the Atlantic interests. The Back members are always most averse to the best measures. He mentioned the case of Pen^a formerly. The lower part of the State had y^e power in the first instance. They kept it in y^r own hands & the country was y^e better for it. Another objection with him ag^{st} admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pen^a would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been raised ag^{st} leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time, to time, to the discretion of the Legislature. The 1. was, they would be unwilling to revise it at all. The 2 that by referring to _wealth_ they would be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be unable to execute. The 1^{st} obj^n distrusts their fidelity. But if their duty, their honor & their oaths will not bind them, let us not put into their hands our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us have no Gov^t at all. 2. If these ties will bind them, we need not distrust the practicability of the rule. It was followed in part by the Com^e in the apportionment of Representatives yesterday reported to the House. The best course that could be taken would be to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people.

M^r Madison was not a little surprised to hear this implicit confidence urged by a member who on all occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the political depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one vice and interest by opposing to them another vice & interest. If the Representatives of the people would be bound by the ties he had mentioned, what need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary power? But his reasoning was not only inconsistent with his former reasoning, but with itself. At the same time that he recommended this implicit confidence to the Southern States in the Northern majority, he was still more zealous in exhorting all to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To reconcile the gentl^n with himself, it must be imagined that he determined the human character by the points of the compass. The truth was that all men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. The case of Pen^a had been mentioned where it was admitted that those who were possessed of the power in the original settlement, never admitted the new settlem^{ts} to a due share of it. England was a still more striking example. The power there had long been in the hands of the boroughs, of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every reform which had been attempted. Virg^a was in a lesser degree another example. With regard to the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion, that no unfavorable distinctions were admissible either in point of justice or policy. He thought also that the hope of contributions to the Treas^y from them had been much underrated. Future contributions it seemed to be understood on all hands would be principally levied on imports & exports. The extent and fertility of the Western Soil would for a long time give to agriculture a preference over manufactures. Trials would be repeated till some articles could be raised from it that would bear a transportation to places where they could be exchanged for imported manufactures. Whenever the Mississippi should be opened to them, which would of necessity be y^e case as soon as their population would subject them to any considerable share of the Public burden, imposts on their trade could be collected with less expence & greater certainty, than on that of the Atlantic States. In the mean time, as their supplies must pass through the _Atlantic States_, their contributions would be levied in the same manner with those of the Atlantic States. He could not agree that any substantial objection lay ag^{st} fix^g numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation. It was said that Representation & taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other. He admitted that in different climates, under different forms of Gov^t and in different stages of civilization the inference was perfectly just. He would admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants were an accurate measure of wealth. He contended however that in the U. States it was sufficiently so for the object in contemplation. Altho' their climate varied considerably, yet as the Gov^{ts} the laws, and the manners of all were nearly the same, and the intercourse between different parts perfectly free, population, industry, arts, and the value of labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves. The value of labour might be considered as the principal criterion of wealth and ability to support taxes; and this would find its level in different places where the intercourse should be easy & free, with as much certainty as the value of money or any other thing. Wherever labour would yield most, people would resort, till the competition should destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people are constantly swarming from the more to the less populous places--from Europe to Am^a--from the North^n & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern & Western. They go where land is cheaper, because there labour is dearer. If it be true that the same quantity of produce raised on the banks of the Ohio is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true that the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the quantity in the former, that it will raise in the latter situation.

Col. Mason. Agreed with M^r Gov^r Morris that we ought to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people; but the objection was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives of the people. It would continue so no longer than the States now containing a majority of the people should retain that majority. As soon as the Southern & Western population should predominate, which must happen in a few years, the power w^d be in the hands of the minority, and would never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for by the Constitution.

On the Question for postponing M^r Williamson's motion, in order
to consider that of M^r Rutlidge, it passed in the negative,
Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.
V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question on the first clause of M^r Williamson's motion
as to taking a census of the free inhabitants, it passed in the
affirmative; Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no.
M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered.

M^r King being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought the admission of them along with Whites at all, would excite great discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said as to any particular point that he would in no event acquiesce in & support it; but he w^d say that if any in case such a declaration was to be made by him, it would be in this. He remarked that in the temporary allotment of Representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had received more than the number of their white & Three fifths of their black inhabitants entitled them to.

M^r Sherman. S. Carol^a had not more beyond her proportion than N. York & N. Hampshire, nor either of them more than was necessary in order to avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportions. Georgia had more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In general the allotment might not be just, but considering all circumstances, he was satisfied with it.

M^r Ghorum. supported the propriety of establishing numbers as the rule. He said that in Mass^{ts} estimates had been taken in the different towns, and that persons had been curious enough to compare these estimates with the respective numbers of people; and it had been found even including Boston, that the most exact proportion prevailed between numbers & property. He was aware that there might be some weight in what had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the proposition of Cong^s for changing the 8^{th} art: of the Confed^n was before the Legislature of Mass^{ts} the only difficulty then was to satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally with whites instead of being counted in ratio of three-fifths only.[129]

[129] They were then to have been a rule of taxation only.
Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Wilson did not well see on what principle the admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as Citizens? then why are they not admitted on an equality with White Citizens? are they admitted as property? then why is not other property admitted into the computation? These were difficulties however which he thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some apprehensions also from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pen^a, as had been intimated by his Colleague (M^r Gov^r Morris). But he differed from him in thinking numbers of inhab^{ts} so incorrect a measure of wealth. He had seen the Western settlem^{ts} of P^a and on a comparison of them with the City of Philad^a could discover little other difference, than that property was more unequally divided among individuals here than there. Taking the same number in the aggregate in the two situations he believed there would be little difference in their wealth and ability to contribute to the public wants.

M^r Gov^r Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the Southern States or to human nature, and he must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give such encouragement to the Slave Trade as would be given by allowing them a representation for their negroes, and he did not believe those States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.

On Question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks Mass^{ts}
no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d[130] no. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

[130] (M^r Carrol s^d in explanation of the vote of
M^d that he wished the phraseology to be so altered
as to obviate if possible the danger which had been
expressed of giving umbrage to the Eastern & Middle
States.) Note in Madison's hand.

On the question as to taking census "the first year after the meeting of the Legislature"

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.
V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On filling the blank for the periodical census, with 15 years. Agreed to nem. con.

M^r Madison moved to add, after "15 years," the words "at least" that the Legislature might anticipate when circumstances were likely to render a particular year inconvenient.

On this motion for adding "at least," it passed in the negative the States being equally divided.

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

A Change of the phraseology of the other clause so as to read, "and the Legislature shall alter or augment the representation accordingly," was agreed to nem. con.

On the question on the whole resolution of M^r Williamson as amended,

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no.
S. C. no. Geo. no.

THURSDAY, JULY 12. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to the clause empowering the Legislature to vary the Representation according to the principles of wealth & numbers of inhab^{ts} a "proviso that taxation shall be in proportion to Representation."

M^r Butler contended again that Representation s^d be according to the full number of inhab^{ts} including all the blacks; admitting the justice of M^r Gov^r Morris's motion.

M^r Mason also admitted the justice of the principle, but was afraid embarrassments might be occasioned to the Legislature by it. It might drive the Legislature to the plan of Requisitions.

M^r Gov^r Morris, admitted that some objections lay ag^{st} his Motion, but supposed they would be removed by restraining the rule to _direct_ taxation. With regard to indirect taxes on _exports_ & imports & on consumption the rule would be inapplicable. Notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary he was persuaded that the imports & consumption were pretty nearly equal throughout the Union.

General Pinkney liked the idea. He thought it so just that it could not be objected to. But foresaw that if the revision of the census was left to the discretion of the Legislature, it would never be carried into execution. The rule must be fixed, and the execution of it enforced by the Constitution. He was alarmed at what was said[131] yesterday, concerning the Negroes. He was now again alarmed at what had been thrown out concerning the taxing of exports. S. Carol^a has in one year exported to the amount of £600,000 Sterling all which was the fruit of the labor of her blacks. Will she be represented in proportion to this amount? She will not. Neither ought she then to be subject to a tax on it. He hoped a clause would be inserted in the system, restraining the Legislature from taxing Exports.

[131] By M^r Gov^r Morris. Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Wilson approved the principle, but could not see how it could be carried into execution; unless restrained to direct taxation.

M^r Gov^r Morris having so varied his Motion by inserting the word "direct." It pass^d nem. con. as follows--"provided always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

M^r Davie said it was high time now to speak out. He saw that it was meant by some gentlemen to deprive the Southern States of any share of Representation for their blacks. He was sure that N. Carol^a would never confederate on any terms that did not rate them at least as 3/5. If the Eastern States meant therefore to exclude them altogether the business was at an end.

D^r Johnson, thought that wealth and population were the true, equitable rule of representation; but he conceived that these two principles resolved themselves into one; population being the best measure of wealth. He concluded therefore that y^e number of people ought to be established as the rule, and that all descriptions including blacks _equally_ with the Whites, ought to fall within the computation. As various opinions had been expressed on the subject, he would move that a Committee might be appointed to take them into consideration and report thereon.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It has been said that it is high time to speak out, as one member, he would candidly do so. He came here to form a compact for the good of America. He was ready to do so with all the States. He hoped & believed that all would enter into such a Compact. If they would not he was ready to join with any States that would. But as the Compact was to be voluntary, it is in vain for the Eastern States to insist on what the South^n States will never agree to. It is equally vain for the latter to require what the other States can never admit; and he verily believed the people of Pen^a will never agree to a representation of Negroes. What can be desired by these States more than has been already proposed; that the Legislature shall from time to time regulate Representation according to population & wealth.

Gen^l Pinkney desired that the rule of wealth should be ascertained and not left to the pleasure of the Legislature; and that property in slaves should not be exposed to danger under a Gov^t instituted for the protection of property.

The first clause in the Report of the first Grand Committee was postponed.

M^r Elseworth. In order to carry into effect the principle established, moved that to add to the last clause adopted by the House the words following, "and that the rule of contribution by direct taxation for the support of the Government of the U. States shall be the number of white inhabitants, and three fifths of every other description in the several States, until some other rule that shall more accurately ascertain the wealth of the several States can be devised and adopted by the Legislature."

M^r Butler seconded the motion in order that it might be committed.

M^r Randolph was not satisfied with the motion. The danger will be revived that the ingenuity of the Legislature may evade or pervert the rule so as to perpetuate the power where it shall be lodged in the first instance. He proposed in lieu of M^r Elseworth's motion, "that in order to ascertain the alterations in Representation that may be required from time to time by changes in the relative circumstances of the States, a Census shall be taken within two years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Gen^l Legislature of the U.S. and once within the term of every ---- year afterwards, of all the inhabitants in the manner & according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their resolution of the 18^{th} day of Ap^l 1783, (rating the blacks at 3/5 of their number) and that the Legislature of the U. S. shall arrange the Representation accordingly." He urged strenuously that express security ought to be provided for including slaves in the ratio of Representation. He lamented that such a species of property existed. But as it did exist the holders of it would require this security. It was perceived that the design was entertained by some of excluding slaves altogether; the Legislature therefore ought not to be left at liberty.

M^r Elseworth withdraws his motion & seconds that of M^r Randolph.

M^r Wilson observed that less umbrage would perhaps be taken ag^{st} an admission of the slaves into the Rule of representation, if it should be so expressed as to make them indirectly only an ingredient in the rule, by saying that they should enter into the rule of taxation; and as representation was to be according to taxation, the end would be equally attained. He accordingly moved & was 2^{ded} so to alter the last clause adopted by the House, that together with the amendment proposed the whole should read as follows--provided always that the representation ought to be proportioned according to direct taxation, and in order to ascertain the alterations in the direct taxation which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circumstances of the States, Resolved that a census be taken within two years from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U. States, and once within the term of every ---- years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U.S. in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18. 1783; and that the Legislature of the U.S. shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly.

M^r King. Altho' this amendment varies the aspect somewhat, he had still two powerful objections ag^{st} tying down the Legislature to the rule of numbers. 1. they were at this time an uncertain index of the relative wealth of the States. 2. if they were a just index at this time it can not be supposed always to continue so. He was far from wishing to retain any unjust advantage whatever in one part of the Republic. If justice was not the basis of the connection it could not be of long duration. He must be shortsighted indeed who does not foresee that whenever the Southern States shall be more numerous than the Northern, they can & will hold a language that will awe them into justice. If they threaten to separate now in case injury shall be done them, will their threats be less urgent or effectual, when force shall back their demands. Even in the intervening period, there will be no point of time at which they will not be able to say, do us justice or we will separate. He urged the necessity of placing confidence to a certain degree in every Gov^t and did not conceive that the proposed confidence as to a periodical readjustment of the representation exceeded that degree.

M^r Pinkney moved to amend M^r Randolph's motion so as to make "blacks equal to the whites in the ratio of representation." This he urged was nothing more than justice. The blacks are the labourers, the peasants of the Southern States: they are as productive of pecuniary resources as those of the Northern States. They add equally to the wealth, and considering money as the sinew of war, to the strength of the nation. It will also be politic with regard to the Northern States, as taxation is to keep pace with Representation.

Gen^l Pinkney moves to insert 6 years instead of two, as the period computing from the 1^{st} meeting of y^e Legis^e within which the first census should be taken. On this question for inserting six, instead of "two" in the proposition of M^r Wilson, it passed in the affirmative

Mass^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. div^d. May^d ay.
V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On a question for filling the blank for y^e periodical census with 20 years, it passed in the negative

Mass^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P. ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no.
N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a question for 10 years, it passed in the affirmative.

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P. ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On M^r Pinkney's motion for rating blacks as equal to Whites instead of as 3/5.

Mass. no. Con^t no. (D^r Johnson ay) N. J. no. P^a no. (3 ag^{st}
2.) Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo--ay.

M^r Randolph's proposition as varied by M^r Wilson being read for question on the whole--

M^r Gerry, urged that the principle of it could not be carried into execution as the States were not to be taxed as States. With regard to taxes in imposts, he conceived they would be more productive Where there were no slaves than where there were; the consumption being greater--

M^r Elseworth. In case of a poll tax there w^d be no difficulty. But there w^d probably be none. The sum allotted to a State may be levied without difficulty according to the plan used by the State in raising its own supplies. On the question of y^e whole proposition; as proportioning representation to direct taxation & both to the white & 3/5 of black inhabitants, & requiring a Census within six years--& within every ten years afterwards.

Mass. div^d. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.

FRIDAY, JULY 13. IN CONVENTION.

It being moved to postpone the clause in the Report of the Committee of Eleven as to the originating of money bills in _the first_ branch, in order to take up the following--"that in the 2^d branch each State shall have an equal voice,"

M^r Gerry, moved to add as an amendment to the last clause agreed to by the House, "that from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U.S. till a census shall be taken all monies to be raised for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be assessed on the inhabitants of the several States according to the number of their Representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch." He said this would be as just before as after the Census; according to the general principle that taxation & Representation ought to go together.

M^r Williamson feared that N. Hampshire will have reason to complain. 3 members were allotted to her as a liberal allowance, for this reason among others, that she might not suppose any advantage to have been taken of her absence. As she was still absent, and had no opportunity of deciding whether she would chuse to retain the number on the condition, of her being taxed in proportion to it, he thought the number ought to be reduced from three to two, before the question was taken on M^r G's motion.

M^r Read could not approve of the proposition. He had observed he said in the Committee a backwardness in some of the members from the large States, to take their full proportion of Representatives. He did not then see the motive. He now suspects it was to avoid their due share of taxation. He had no objection to a just & accurate adjustment of Representation & taxation to each other.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Madison answered that the charge itself involved an acquittal; since notwithstanding the augmentation of the number of members allotted to Mass^{ts} & V^a the motion for proportioning the burdens thereto was made by a member from the former State & was approved by M^r M. from the latter who was on the Com^e. M^r Gov^r Morris said that he thought P^a had her due share in 8 members; and he could not in candor ask for more. M^r M. said that having always conceived that the difference of interest in the U. States lay not between the large & small, but the N. & South^n States, and finding that the number of members allotted to the N. States was greatly superior, he should have preferred, an addition of two members to the S. States, to wit one to N. & 1 to S. Carl^a rather than of one member to Virg^a. He liked the present motion, because it tended to moderate the views both of the opponents & advocates for rating very high, the negroes.

M^r Elseworth hoped the proposition would be withdrawn. It entered too much into detail. The general principle was already sufficiently settled. As fractions can not be regarded in apportioning the _N^o of representatives_, the rule will be unjust, until an actual census shall be made. After that taxation may be precisely proportioned according to the principle established, to the _number of inhabitants_.

M^r Wilson hoped the motion would not be withdrawn. If it sh^d it will be made from another quarter. The rule will be as reasonable & just before, as after a Census. As to fractional numbers, the Census will not destroy, but ascertain them. And they will have the same effect after as before the Census; for as he understands the rule, it is to be adjusted not to the number of _inhabitants_, but of _Representatives_.

M^r Sherman opposed the motion. He thought the Legislature ought to be left at liberty: in which case they would probably conform to the principles observed by Cong^s.

M^r Mason did not know that Virg^a would be a loser by the proposed regulation, but had some scruple as to the justice of it. He doubted much whether the conjectural rule which was to precede the Census, would be as just, as it would be rendered by an actual census.

M^r Elseworth & M^r Sherman moved to postpone the motion of M^r Gerry. On y^e question, it passed in the negative. Mass. no. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on M^r Gerry's motion, it passed in the negative, the States being equally divided.

Mass. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. _P^a ay._ Del. no. M^d no.
_V^a no._ N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry finding that the loss of the question had proceeded from an objection with some, to the proposed assessment of direct taxes on the _inhabitants_ of the States, which might restrain the Legislature to a poll tax, moved his proposition again, but so varied as to authorize the assessment on the _States_, which leaves the mode to the Legislature, viz "that from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. untill a census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised from the said several States according to the number of their representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch."

On this varied question, it passed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. _P^a div^d_ Del. no. M^d no.
_V^a ay._ N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the motion of M^r Randolph, the vote of saturday last authorizing the Legisl^{re} to adjust from time to time, the representation upon the principles of _wealth_ & numbers of inhabitants, was reconsidered by common consent in order to strike out "Wealth" and adjust the resolution to that requiring periodical revisions, according to the number of whites & three fifths of the blacks: the motion was in the words following:--"But as the present situation of the States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature of the U. S. be authorized from time to time to apportion the number of representatives; and in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided or any two or more States united or new States created within the limits of the U. S. the Legislature of U. S. shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants; according to the provisions hereafter mentioned."

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed the alteration as leaving still incoherence. If Negroes were to be viewed as inhabitants, and the revision was to proceed on the principle of numbers of inhab^{ts} they ought to be added in their entire number, and not in the proportion of 3/5. If as property, the word wealth was right, and striking it out would produce the very inconsistency which it was meant to get rid of.--The train of business & the late turn which it had taken, had led him he said, into deep meditation on it, and He w^d candidly state the result. A distinction had been set up & urged, between the N^n and South^n States. He had hitherto considered this doctrine as heretical. He still thought the distinction groundless. He sees however that it is persisted in, and the South^n Gentlemen will not be satisfied unless they see the way open to their gaining a majority in the public Councils. The consequence of such a transfer of power from the maritime to the interior & landed interest will he foresees be such an oppression of commerce that he shall be obliged to vote for y^e vicious principle of equality in the 2^d branch in order to provide some defence for the N. States ag^{st} it. But to come more to the point; either this distinction is fictitious or real; if fictitious let it be dismissed & let us proceed with due confidence. If it be real, instead of attempting to blend incompatible things, let us at once take a friendly leave of each other. There can be no end of demands for security if every particular interest is to be entitled to it. The Eastern States may claim it for their fishery, and for other objects, as the South^n States claim it for their peculiar objects. In this struggle between the two ends of the Union, what part ought the middle States in point of policy to take: to join their Eastern brethren according to his ideas. If the South^n States get the power into their hands, and be joined as they will be with the interior Country, they will inevitably bring on a war with Spain for the Mississippi. This language is already held. The interior Country having no property nor interest exposed on the sea, will be little affected by such a war. He wished to know what security the North^n & middle States will have ag^{st} this danger. It has been said that N. C. S. C., and Georgia only will in a little time have a majority of the people of America. They must in that case include the great interior Country, and every thing was to be apprehended from their getting the power into their hands.

M^r Butler. The security the South^n States want is that their negroes may not be taken from them, which some gentlemen within or without doors, have a very good mind to do. It was not supposed that N. C. S. C. & Geo. would have more people than all the other States, but many more relatively to the other States than they now have. The people & strength of America are evidently bearing Southwardly & S. westw^{dly}.

M^r Wilson. If a general declaration would satisfy any gentleman he had no indisposition to declare his sentiments. Conceiving that all men wherever placed have equal rights and are equally entitled to confidence, he viewed without apprehension the period when a few States should contain the superior number of people. The majority of people wherever found ought in all questions to govern the minority. If the interior Country should acquire this majority, it will not only have the right, but will avail itself of it whether we will or no. This jealousy misled the policy of G. Britain with regard to America. The fatal maxims espoused by her were that the Colonies were growing too fast, and that their growth must be stinted in time. What were the consequences?, first, enmity on our part, then actual separation. Like consequences will result on the part of the interior settlements, if like jealousy & policy be pursued on ours. Further, if numbers be not a proper rule, why is not some better rule pointed out. No one has yet ventured to attempt it. Cong^s have never been able to discover a better. No State as far as he had heard, had suggested any other. In 1783, after elaborate discussion of a measure of wealth all were satisfied then as they are now that the rule of numbers, does not differ much from the combined rule of numbers & wealth. Again he could not agree that property was the sole or primary object of Gov^t & society. The cultivation & improvement of the human mind was the most noble object. With respect to this object, as well as to other _personal_ rights, numbers were surely the natural & precise measure of Representation. And with respect to property, they could not vary much from the precise measure. In no point of view however could the establishm^t of numbers as the rule of representation in the 1^{st} branch vary his opinion as to the impropriety of letting a vicious principle into the 2^d branch.--On the Question to strike out _Wealth_, & to make the change as moved by M^r Randolph, it passed in the affirmative.

Mas. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del div^d. M^d ay. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Reed moved to insert after the word "divided," "or enlarged by addition of territory" which was agreed to nem con. (his object probably was to provide for such cases as an enlargem^t of Delaware by annexing to it the Peninsula on the East side of the Chesapeak.)

Adjourned.

SATURDAY, JULY 14. IN CONVENTION.

M^r L. Martin called for the question on the whole report, including the parts relating to the origination of money bills, and the equality of votes in the 2^d branch.

M^r Gerry, wished before the question should be put, that the attention of the House might be turned to the dangers apprehended from Western States. He was for admitting them on liberal terms, but not for putting ourselves in their hands. They will if they acquire power like all men, abuse it. They will oppress commerce, and drain our wealth into the Western Country. To guard ag^{st} these consequences, he thought it necessary to limit the number of new States to be admitted into the Union, in such a manner, that they should never be able to outnumber the Atlantic States. He accordingly moved "that in order to secure the liberties of the States already confederated, the number of Representatives in the 1^{st} branch, of the States which shall hereafter be established, shall never exceed in number, the Representatives from such of the States as shall accede to this Confederation.

M^r King, seconded the motion.

M^r Sherman, thought there was no probability that the number of future States would exceed that of the Existing States. If the event should ever happen, it was too remote to be taken into consideration at this time. Besides We are providing for our posterity, for our children & our grand Children; who would be as likely to be citizens of new Western States, as of the old States. On this consideration alone, we ought to make no such discrimination as was proposed by the motion.

M^r Gerry. If some of our children should remove, others will stay behind, and he thought it incumbent on us to provide for their interests. There was a rage for emigration from the Eastern States to the Western Country, and he did not wish those remaining behind to be at the mercy of the emigrants. Besides foreigners are resorting to that Country, and it is uncertain what turn things may take there.--On the question for agreeing to the Motion of M^r Gerry, it passed in the negative.

Mass. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay.
V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge proposed to reconsider the two propositions touching the originating of money bills in the first & the equality of votes in the second branch.

M^r Sherman was for the question on the whole at once. It was he said a conciliatory plan, it had been considered in all its parts, a great deal of time had been spent upon it, and if any part should now be altered, it would be necessary to go over the whole ground again.

M^r L. Martin urged the question on the whole. He did not like many parts of it. He did not like having two branches, nor the inequality of votes in the 1^{st} branch. He was willing however to make trial of the plan, rather than do nothing.

M^r Wilson traced the progress of the report through its several stages, remarking y^t when on the question concerning an equality of votes, the House was divided, our Constituents had they voted as their representatives did, would have stood as 2/3 ag^{st} the equality, and 1/3 only in favor of it. This fact would ere long be known, and it will appear that this fundamental point has been carried by 1/3 ag^{st} 2/3. What hopes will our Constituents entertain when they find that the essential principles of justice have been violated in the outset of the Governm^t. As to the privilege of originating money bills, it was not considered by any as of much moment, and by many as improper in itself. He hoped both clauses w^d be reconsidered. The equality of votes was a point of such critical importance, that every opportunity ought to be allowed, for discussing and collecting the mind of the Convention upon it.

M^r L. Martin denies that there were 2/3 ag^{st} the equality of votes. The States that please to call themselves large, are the weakest in the Union. Look at Mas^{ts}. Look at Virg^a. Are they efficient States? He was for letting a separation take place if they desired it. He had rather there should be two Confederacies, than one founded on any other principle than an equality of votes in the 2^d branch at least.

M^r Wilson was not surprised that those who say that a minority is more than a majority should say the minority is stronger than the majority. He supposed the next assertion will be that they are richer also; though he hardly expected it would be persisted in when the States shall be called on for taxes & troops.

M^r Gerry also animadverted on M^r L. Martins remarks on the weakness of Mas^{ts}. He favored the reconsideration with a view not of destroying the equality of votes; but of providing that the States should vote per Capita, which he said would prevent the delays & inconveniences that had been experienced in Cong^s and would give a national aspect & Spirit to the management of business. He did not approve of a reconsideration of the clause relating to money bills. It was of great consequence. It was the corner stone of the accommodation. If any member of the Convention had the exclusive privilege of making propositions, would any one say that it would give him no advantage over other members. The Report was not altogether to his mind. But he would agree to it as it stood rather than throw it out altogether.

The reconsideration being tacitly agreed to

M^r Pinkney moved that instead of an equality of votes, the States should be represented in the 2^d branch as follows: N. H. by 2 members. Mass. 4. R. I. 1. Con^t 3. N. Y. 3. N. J. 2. P^a 4. Del. 1; M^d 3. Virg^a 5. N. C. 3. S. C. 3. Geo. 2. making in the whole 36.

M^r Wilson seconds the motion

M^r Dayton. The smaller States can never give up their equality. For himself he would in no event yield that security for their rights.

M^r Sherman, urged the equality of votes not so much as a Security for the small States; as for the State Gov^{ts} which could not be preserved unless they were represented & had a negative in the Gen^l Government. He had no objection to the members in the 2^d b. voting per capita, as had been suggested by (M^r Gerry).

M^r Madison concurred in this motion of M^r Pinkney as a reasonable compromise.

M^r Gerry said he should like the motion, but could see no hope of success. An accommodation must take place, and it was apparent from what had been seen that it could not do so on the ground of the motion. He was utterly against a partial confederacy, leaving other States to accede or not accede, as had been intimated.

M^r King said it was always with regret that he differed from his colleagues, but it was his duty to differ from (M^r Gerry) on this occasion. He considered the proposed Government as substantially and formally, a General and National Government over the people of America. There never will be a case in which it will act as a federal Government on the States and not on the individual Citizens. And is it not a clear principle that in a free Gov^t those who are to be the objects of a Gov^t ought to influence the operations of it? What reason can be assigned why the same rule of representation s^d not prevail in the 2^d branch as in the 1^{st}.? He could conceive none. On the contrary, every view of the subject that presented itself, seemed to require it. Two objections had been raised ag^{st} it, drawn 1. from the terms of the existing compact. 2. from a supposed danger to the smaller States.--As to the first objection he thought it inapplicable. According to the existing Confederation, the rule by which the public burdens is to be apportioned is _fixed_, and must be pursued. In the proposed Govern^t it cannot be fixed, because indirect taxation is to be substituted. The Legislature therefore will have full discretion to impose taxes in such modes & proportions as they may judge expedient. As to the 2^d objection, he thought it of as little weight. The Gen^l Govern^t can never wish to intrude on the State Govern^{ts}. There could be no temptation. None had been pointed out. In order to prevent the interference of measures which seemed most likely to happen, he would have no objection to throwing all the State debts into the federal debt, making one aggregate debt of about 70,000,000 of dollars, and leaving it to be discharged by the Gen^l Gov^t. According to the idea of securing the State Gov^{ts} there ought to be three distinct legislative branches. The 2^d was admitted to be necessary, and was actually meant, to check the 1^{st} branch, to give more wisdom, system, & stability to the Gov^t and ought clearly as it was to operate on the people, to be proportioned to them. For the third purpose of securing the States, there ought then to be a 3^d branch, representing the States as such, and guarding by equal votes their rights & dignities. He would not pretend to be as thoroughly acquainted with his immediate Constituents as his colleagues, but it was his firm belief that Mas^{ts} would never be prevailed on to yield to an equality of votes. In N. York, (he was sorry to be obliged to say any thing relative to that State in the absence of its representatives, but the occasion required it), in N. York he had seen that the most powerful argument used by the considerate opponents to the grant of the Impost to Congress, was pointed ag^{st} the vicious constitution of Cong^s with regard to representation & suffrage. He was sure that no Gov^t could last that was not founded on just principles. He preferred the doing of nothing, to an allowance of an equal vote to all the States. It would be better he thought to submit to a little more confusion & convulsion, than to submit to such an evil. It was difficult to say what the views of different Gentlemen might be. Perhaps there might be some who thought no Governm^t co-extensive with the U. States could be established with a hope of its answering the purpose. Perhaps there might be other fixed opinions incompatible with the object we are pursuing. If there were, he thought it but candid that Gentlemen should speak out that we might understand one another.

M^r Strong. The Convention had been much divided in opinion. In order to avoid the consequences of it, an accommodation had been proposed. A Committee had been appointed: and though some of the members of it were averse to an equality of votes, a Report had been made in favor of it. It is agreed on all hands that Congress are nearly at an end. If no Accommodation takes place, the Union itself must soon be dissolved. It has been suggested that if we cannot come to any general agreement, the principal States may form & recommend a Scheme of Government. But will the small States in that case ever accede it. Is it probable that the large States themselves will under such circumstances embrace and ratify it. He thought the small States had made a considerable concession in the article of money bills, and that they might naturally expect some concessions on the other side. From this view of the matter he was compelled to give his vote for the Report taken altogether.

M^r Madison expressed his apprehensions that if the proper foundation of Governm^t was destroyed, by substituting an equality in place of a proportional Representation, no proper superstructure would be raised. If the small States really wish for a Government armed with the powers necessary to secure their liberties, and to enforce obedience on the larger members as well as themselves he could not help thinking them extremely mistaken in their means. He reminded them of the consequences of laying the existing Confederation on improper principles. All the principal parties to its compilation joined immediately in mutilating & fettering the Governm^t in such a manner that it has disappointed every hope placed in it. He appealed to the doctrine & arguments used by themselves on a former occasion. It had been very properly observed by (M^r Patterson) that Representation was an expedient by which the meeting of the people themselves was rendered unnecessary; And that the representatives ought therefore to bear a proportion to the votes which their constituents if convened would respectively have. Was not this remark as applicable to one branch of the Representation as to the other? But it had been said that the Govern^t would in its operation be partly federal, partly national; that altho' in the latter respect the Representatives of the people ought to be in proportion to the people; yet in the former it ought to be according to the number of States. If there was any solidity in this distinction he was ready to abide by it, if there was none it ought to be abandoned. In all cases where the Gen^l Governm^t is to act on the people, let the people be represented and the votes be proportional. In all cases where the Govern^t is to act on the States as such in like manner as Cong^s now acts on them, let the States be represented & the votes be equal. This was the true ground of compromise if there was any ground at all. But he denied that there was any ground. He called for a single instance in which the Gen^l Gov^t was not to operate on the people individually. The practicability of making laws, with coercive sanctions, for the States as Political bodies, had been exploded on all hands. He observed that the people of the large States would in some way or other secure to themselves a weight proportioned to the importance accruing from their superior numbers. If they could not effect it by a proportional representation in the Gov^t they would probably accede to no Gov^t which did not in a great measure depend for its efficacy on their voluntary cooperation; in which case they would indirectly secure their object. The existing confederacy proved that where the Acts of the Gen^l Gov^t were to be executed by the particular Gov^{ts} the latter had a weight in proportion to their importance. No one would say that either in Cong^s or out of Cong^s. Delaware had equal weight with Pennsylv^a. If the latter was to supply ten times as much money as the former, and no compulsion could be used, it was of ten times more importance, that she should voluntarily furnish the supply. In the Dutch confederacy the votes of the Provinces were equal. But Holland which supplies about half the money, governed the whole republic. He enumerated the objections ag^{st} an equality of votes in the 2^d branch, notwithstanding the proportional representation in the first. 1. the minority could negative the will of the majority of the people. 2. they could extort measures by making them a condition of their assent to other necessary measures. 3. they could obtrude measures on the majority by virtue of the peculiar powers which would be vested in the Senate. 4. the evil instead of being cured by time, would increase with every new State that should be admitted, as they must all be admitted on the principle of equality. 5. the perpetuity it would give to the preponderance of the North^n ag^{st} the South^n Scale was a serious consideration. It seemed now to be pretty well understood that the real difference of interests lay, not between the large & small but between the N. & South^n States. The institution of slavery & its consequences formed the line of discrimination. There were 5 States on the South, 8 on the North^n side of this line. Should a proport^l representation take place it was true, the N. side would still outnumber the other; but not in the same degree, at this time; and every day would tend towards an equilibrium.