Chapter I: Part 1

Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V", "Y", and "Z" symbols are denoted as =V=, =Y=, and =Z=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ III

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY

J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_

_Assistant Counsel_

FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

_Staff Members_

PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's _Report_.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Illinois Department of Public Safety.

Contents

Page
Preface v

Testimony of--
Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1
Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211
Bonnie Ray Williams 161
Harold Norman 186
James Jarman, Jr 198
Roy Sansom Truly 212
Marrion L. Baker 242
Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270
Luke Mooney 281
Eugene Boone 291
M. N. McDonald 295
Helen Markham 305, 340
William W. Scoggins 322
Barbara Jeanette Davis 342
Ted Callaway 351
Charles James Carrico 357
Malcolm Perry 366
Robert A. Frazier 390
Ronald Simmons 441
Cortlandt Cunningham 451
Joseph D. Nicol 496

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Exhibit No.: Page
128 31
425 95
426 2
429 23
430 55
431 55
432 55
433 55
434 55
435 55
436 55
437 55
438 55
439 55
440 55
441 55
442 55
443 55
444 55
445 55
446 55
447 55
448 55
449 75
450 55
451 95
452 55
453 95
454 95
455 95
456 95
459-1 134
460 132
477 147
478 147
479 147
480 157
481 157
482 157
483 183
484 183
485 183
486 183
487 183
488 183
489 183
490 183
491 183
492 183
493 194
494 217
495 217
496 217
497 236
498 236
499 236
500 236
501 236
502 236
503 236
504 236
505 236
506 236
507 280
508 290
509 290
510 290
511 290
512 290
513 290
514 290
515 290
516 294
517 294
518 302
519 302
520 304
521 314
522 314
523 314
524 314
525 317
526 317
527 321
528 324
529 339
530 339
531 339
532 339
534 339
535 341
536 341
537 357
538 357
539 357
540 392
541 394
542 397
543 399
544 399
545 399
546 401
547 401
548 403
549 403
550 404
551 404
552 404
553 404
554 404
555 405
556 408
557 415
558 415
559 419
560 420
561 423
562 424
563 425
564 427
565 427
566 430
567 432
568 432
569 435
570 436
572 437
573 439
574 441
575 441
576 444
577 444
578 444
579 445
580 445
581 445
582 445
583 445
584 445
585 450
586 450
587 453
588 453
589 454
590 454
591 454
592 459
593 462
594 465
595 466
596 467
597 467
598 467
599 467
600 467
601 467
602 474
603 474
604 474
605 474
606 488
607 489
608 499
609 500
610 500
611 501
612 502
613 505
614 506
615 506
616 507
617 507
618 507
619 508
620 508
621 508
622 508
623 508
624 509
625 512

Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy

_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.

Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?

Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?

Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?

Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.

Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is----

Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.

Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."

The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?

Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.

Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:

"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"

Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.

"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?

"Have you ever held a license in any other State?

"Have you ever been denied a license?

"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?

"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"

All answered in the negative.

"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?

"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?

"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?

"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?

"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"

And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"

The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.

I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.

Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?

Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.

The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.

Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?

Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]

Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?

Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose----

Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his----

Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary----

Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you take that document with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?

Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.

Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.

Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?

Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.

Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.

Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.

Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. With your children?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?

Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?

Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all.

Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.

Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?

Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.

Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.

Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?

Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?

Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with----

Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.

Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?

Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.

Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office?

Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?

Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?

Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.

Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?

Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense I would mean friends?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?

Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?

Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?

Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?

Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.

Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?

Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You did?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.

Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.

Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.

Mr. JENNER. Who was home?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.

Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.

Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?

Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.

Mr. JENNER. Grown?

Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.

I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.

I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.

Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.

Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"

"Yes, she knew it."

Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.

Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.

I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.

Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.

Mr. JENNER. That was the end?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.

The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.

Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible----

Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?

Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.

Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.

Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?

Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?

Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.

Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.

Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.

Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?

Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?

Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.

Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.

Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.

Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.

Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.

Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?

Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Was it an English book?

Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.

Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days----

Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.

Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?

Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.

Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.

Representative FORD. I interrupted you.

Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.

Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back.

Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.

Mr. JENNER. He remained home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.

No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.

Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.

Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.

Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.

We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.

Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.

Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.

Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?

Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.

Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.

Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?

Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.

Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns?

Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look----

Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.

Mr. JENNER. Promptly?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?

Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?

Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?

Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?

He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."

And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., or to Philadelphia to look for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?

Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.

Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh?

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.

Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?

Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.

Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He was not?

Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.

Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Walking?

Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.

Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.

Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things that had happened.

Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please.

Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.

So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.

Mr. JENNER. It was a what?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.

My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.

Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?

Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave to the----

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?

Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident.

Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?

Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.

Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity?

Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious?

Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.

Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then proceeded----

Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.

Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.