Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?

Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.

Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head.

Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?

Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.

Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's motorcade route?

Mr. JARMAN. That morning.

Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How did you find out about it?

Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.

Representative FORD. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.

Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee?

Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass.

Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30 and 9:00. I am not sure.

Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming by the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.

Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or Mrs. Lee talk?

Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell Oswald of the route?

Mr. JARMAN. He asked me.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction?

Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.

Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.

Representative FORD. But in front of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building.

Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.

Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here.

Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. This way.

Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.

Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six?

Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.

Representative FORD. You could see it was on six?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. This was about what time?

Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.

Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? Do you remember that?

Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants?

Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt?

Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know?

Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?

Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."

And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Are you a married man?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all.

Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testifled this morning here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting Co.?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.----

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. That is all.

Mr. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan?

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly.

Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TRULY. I do.

Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is.

This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.

Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live?

Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir?

Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date?

Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?

Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mr. TRULY. In Texas.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. I believe--my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.

Mr. BELIN. What business is that?

Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods.

Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them?

Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.

Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And after the depression, where did you start working then?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company?

Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.

Mr. BELIN. And then what?

Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time.

During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.

Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?

Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.

Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.

Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.

Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?

Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a State organization or a private company?

Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Of what year?

Mr. TRULY. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?

Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her name was Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly"--words to this effect--you understand--"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.--she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not?

Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I talked to Mrs. Paine.

In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that day?

Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.

So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.

I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.

Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me--I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.

I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.

So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.

He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily.

So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.

He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes out the payroll for the company.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days.

And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him, because he did need--and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that.

He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.

Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?

Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon.

His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?

Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties were to be--would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.

Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.

He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down from the office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.

Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those?

Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.

Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order.

Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.

Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.

Now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.

And the location of the books--each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.

On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.

And then in the basement the same.

The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.

But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.

Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?

Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.

And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.

Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. That publisher?

Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?

Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.

The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand.

Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by publishers.

Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, they can tell.

On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.

But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.

But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.

Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.

But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.

And we have a lot of those orders.

You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to fill.

Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.

Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.

Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight.

Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for your company?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day.

We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others.

And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee?

Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's work.

Mr. BELIN. What was his pay?

Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour.

Mr. BELIN. 5-day week?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he miss many days of work?

Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November 11th, or not? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day.

Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if you know what that is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or something.

Mr. BELIN. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a form of your company?

Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it is the one we use now or the one we did use.

Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he came for employment?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my desk.

Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.

495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been offered or not.

But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October 1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall.

I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir."

I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I can remember with the boy.

But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf space.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?

Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking, maybe asking where books were or something.

I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had with anyone.

And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork job at all.

Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.

I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's get to work."

And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?

Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too much--a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.

Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.

Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.

And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or anything like that?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it?

Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him myself.

Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22 that you can think of?

Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.

Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.

Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. 362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located? This is the front of the building here at the top.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What time did you get to work on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?

Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I----

Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several places around there.

It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.

As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the President come by.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?

Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could be on a little angle.

Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south?

Mr. TRULY. North.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.

I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.

Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along here somewheres.

Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.

And the top faces roughly south.

And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at Houston and Elm.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade.

Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.

We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.

Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just gradually moved out a bit.

And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.

I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.

But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me----

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for you?

Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.

Now, what was the question?

Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. All right.

We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, heading towards the building?

Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after----

Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think--words to that effect.

I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."

Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on Exhibit 495, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?

Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?

Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.

Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here.

Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?

Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.

There--right here. We came in this way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?

Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure he asked me.

Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.

Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door?

Now, you have point "T."

Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?

Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?

Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on Exhibit 362, showing the route.

All right.

Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?