Chapter II: Part 2

Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?

Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."

Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.

Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?

Mr. McCLOY. Without objection.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.

Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out----

Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too.

Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs:

"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.

Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.

"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless--)"--because--it is crossed out.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.

Proceed, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.

"(I had a--crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.

"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha--crossed out).

"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am--crossed out) no longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state.

"(November the November--crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could 'remain in the U.S. under FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the--crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.

"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but--crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."

Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.

Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. What were they?

Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?

Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBI came----

Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said----

Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice.

Mr. JENNER. November 1 and----

Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.

Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not.

Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import.

Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?

Mrs. PAINE. To the United States?

Mr. JENNER. To the United States.

Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.

Mr. JENNER. Is who?

Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."

Mr. JENNER. Was he present?

Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.

Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?

Mrs. PAINE. She was present.

Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?

Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.

Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one?

Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.

Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?

Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.

He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.

He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.

Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.

And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.

I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.

Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this----

Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.

I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.

One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.

Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.

Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. He had left?

Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.

Mr. JENNER. He had not left?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.

Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.

Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."

Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.

Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."

He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?

Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.

Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.

Mrs. PAINE. Prior.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.

I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?

Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.

Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?

Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.

Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?

Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.

Representative FORD. Handwritten?

Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.

Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.

Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.

Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.

Mr. JENNER. Irritating?

Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.

Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?

Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.

He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.

I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.

Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.

Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.

Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.

Mr. JENNER. Who did that?

Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.

Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.

Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.

Mr. JENNER. With what?

Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.

Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe----

Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.

Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.

Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.

Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?

Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.

Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.

Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.

Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package----

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.

Mr. JENNER. Not until later.

Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?

Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.

Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.

Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?

Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.

Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.

Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Representative FORD. Didn't move it?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.

Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.

Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?

Mrs. PAINE. That is true.

Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. About like so.

Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.

Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.

Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.

Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.

Mr. JENNER. Tied?

Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.

Mr. JENNER. How many were there?

Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.

Mrs. PAINE. Is four.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.

Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.

Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.

Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.

Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.

Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?

Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.

Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.

Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?

Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.

Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.

Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.

Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.

Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Very.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. It is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.

Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.

Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph.

Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?

Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or----

Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.

Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.

Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.

Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.

Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.

Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.

(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled.

May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not----

Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?

Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.

Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that----

Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.

Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.

Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package----

Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.

Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.

Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.

Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?

Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.

Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was----

Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.

Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.

Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.

Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.

Mr. JENNER. There were only two?

Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Only two.

Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.

Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.

Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.

Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.

Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.

Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.

Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.

Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?

Mr. McCLOY. You may.

We are back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.

Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.

Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it?

Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?

Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?

Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.

Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?

Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.

Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.

Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?

Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.

Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.

Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?

Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?

Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.

Representative FORD. Color was the same?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not----

Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.

Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.

Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?

Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.

Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.

Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?

Mrs. PAINE. No word.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?

Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless----

Mr. JENNER. And interested people?

Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?

Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.

Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.

Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.

Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.

Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.

Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.

All right.

You heard from him on the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?

Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.

Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"

Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him----

Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did you hear her say?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."

Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Throughout?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."

Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.

Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".

To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.

Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"

Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.

Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. JENNER. That morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"

Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.

Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.