Chapter XXIV: Part 24

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the man and where he took him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 block.

Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question.

Mr. DULLES. Proceed then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.

Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Anything else?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. Scoggins.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM RESUMED

Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have given. Will you be seated?

Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.

Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never seen--I have never seen this man in my life.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?

Mr. BALL. No further questions.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Representative FORD. None whatsoever?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Traffic violations?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You are lucky.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble.

Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time.

Mr. DULLES. They will be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man named Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when Mr. Lane appeared before this Commission?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was.

Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission Exhibit No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San Francisco Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane.

Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was in the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and appeared, it is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane once or twice prior to his appearance before this Commission, and I was present during his testimony before this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were presented to Mrs. Markham?

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate whom they were pictures of on their face.

Mr. DULLES. That is on the record.

Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to put to you.

Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight.

Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't.

Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to.

Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just good-sighted?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier and everything. I see pretty good.

Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture easily and well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well.

Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We told you orally in Washington, or in Dallas last Friday, didn't we?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. She has not been sworn. Will you kindly raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But when Mr. Belin and I were in Dallas on Friday of last week we asked you to appear?

Mrs. DAVIS. On Saturday.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday, was it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right. And you voluntarily agreed to come up here, didn't you?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Without any notice from the Commission?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. DULLES. May we thank you for that.

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. You are married, are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have some children?

Mrs. DAVIS. Two.

Mr. BALL. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy.

Mr. BALL. Troy Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or what is his business?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Beg pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Live there all your life?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; part of it I have lived in Dallas some.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mrs. DAVIS. Halfway through the 10th midterm.

Mr. BALL. Then did you get married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were living in Dallas on November 22, were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was your address there in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was living with you at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. You mean in the apartment or in the building?

Mr. BALL. In the apartment with you.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just my husband and two children.

Mr. BALL. You had a sister, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sister-in-law.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia.

Mr. BALL. Was she living there at the time, too?

Mrs. DAVIS. They lived around the side of the apartment house.

Mr. BALL. In the same building?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was your husband's sister?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; it was my husband's brother's wife.

Mr. BALL. Husband's brother's wife. I see.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have got some pictures here so we will understand. I will show you Exhibit 525. Is the house in which you were living on November 22d shown in the picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Here.

Mr. BALL. It is the one on the corner? The southeast corner of 10th and Patton, isn't it?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know anything about that, but I know where it is.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 524. Is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; sir.

Mr. BALL. And I show you 534, is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am showing you 528 and there is a lawn there, that is the lawn of what house?

Mrs. DAVIS. Of the house I lived in.

Mr. BALL. The house you lived in.

On that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on November 22d?

Mrs. DAVIS. Those gunshots.

Mr. BALL. Gunshots? Where were you when you heard gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. In bed.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say gunshot or gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Shots.

Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together.

Mr. BALL. You were lying on the bed. What did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I got up, put my shoes on to see what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go outdoors?

Mrs. DAVIS. At first, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you went to the door, did you open the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. I opened the door and held the screen opened.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard.

Mr. BALL. A man was coming across what yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. My yard.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.

Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.

Mr. DULLES. Which hand did he have it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right hand.

Mr. BALL. To his left palm?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him throw anything away?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do next?

Mrs. DAVIS. He looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and went around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking at his normal pace.

Mr. BALL. And he went around the corner?

Did he go on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. He was on the sidewalk right beside the house.

Mr. BALL. Did he go, did he cut across your lawn at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mrs. DAVIS. He cut across the middle of the yard.

Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram, 523, this is 400--that is your home.

Mrs. DAVIS. He came right across like this.

Mr. BALL. Came across like this?

Mrs. DAVIS. Ran beside the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. There is already a mark on there.

Mrs. DAVIS. He left the sidewalk about here, just on the other side of this.

Mr. BALL. Well, mark on the picture now, photo 21 which is Commission Exhibit 534, and you just take this and mark with it and show where he left the sidewalk and what course he took.

Mrs. DAVIS. He was just parallel to the side of this and right around this little bush and around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Around the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The black mark from the sidewalk on 534 marks the course that the man took?

Representative FORD. Could you tell us where you were standing when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was standing on the porch.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there.

Mrs. DAVIS. I can't see the porch. The door is right between these two things here.

Mr. BALL. These two things--what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Between the two posts.

Mr. BALL. Two posts?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's get a better view.

Mr. DULLES. It seems to be the best.

Mr. BALL. You are right.

That is 525.

Now mark where he cut across on that with a line.

Mrs. DAVIS. Right across like this, only it would be on the other side of the bushes here.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

And where were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Standing right--here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. That "X" is a mark to locate your position and we will give a symbol to it. "D." Now, the line you have drawn from the sidewalk through the bushes is the course the man took. Where was he when you saw him emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was right here on the other side of this bush.

Mr. BALL. Draw a line through the course there.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just about along in here.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was shaking it.

Mr. DULLES. I see. Just right there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, there is a cross you make across the line that he took which marks the place where he was emptying the gun.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just about halfway there.

Mr. BALL. Mark it also on 21, 534.

Mrs. DAVIS. Not quite half, not quite to the bushes there.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, even though she cannot pinpoint the point where she was standing because of the photograph, she might draw an arrow showing about where she was standing.

Mr. BALL. Show an arrow about where you were standing.

Mrs. DAVIS. About there.

Mr. BALL. That is 21, photo 21 and Commission Exhibit 534.

After the man left, what did you do, after he went out of sight what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I went back in and phoned the police.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you tell the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. I just told them that a policeman had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I came back outside and walked down to where the policeman's car was out.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was laying on the left-hand side of the car on the ground, by the left-hand fender.

Mr. BALL. Was he alive or what?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he was alive or dead?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I didn't get that close.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not 5 minutes, I would imagine, because the police cars started coming, so I went back to my yard.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a man coming and get the policeman's gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you later look in the bushes and find something?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; in the grass beside the house.

Mr. BALL. The grass beside the house. What did you find?

Mrs. DAVIS. We found one shell.

Mr. BALL. One shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your sister-in-law, did your sister-in-law find something else?

Mrs. DAVIS. She found one later in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. One, later?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you show me on one of these pictures here where you found one shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Under the window here. That would be the only one I could tell.

Mr. BALL. The only one that shows, it is photo 3, it is Commission Exhibit 534. Draw an arrow down.

Mrs. DAVIS. Right Under that window there.

Mr. BALL. Under that window.

The arrow which is marked "D-1" shows the position where you found one shell. Did you see your sister-in-law find the other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was that found?

Mrs. DAVIS. There is a little cement walk right here by her door, it was right there, not too far from there.

Mr. BALL. Could you draw an arrow down to show the approximate position?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was almost in front of her door, there is a little cement porch to step up to her door.

Mr. BALL. The arrow which we marked as "D-2" marks the place where your sister-in-law found the second shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You only found two shells, did you, you one and your sister-in-law one?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did you find the one shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. This was probably an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours, after the officer was shot.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did your sister-in-law find her shell, find the shell that she found?

Mr. DAVIS. Somewhere around 4:30, 5, somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you later go down to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and asked if you could identify the man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other men.

Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, and yourself, and other men?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were police officers there?

Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room.

Mr. BALL. When those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Four.

Mr. BALL. Were they of the same size or of different sizes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Most of them was about the same size.

Mr. BALL. All white men, were they?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. BALL. Number 2 you recognized? Did you tell any policeman there anything after you recognized them?

Mrs. DAVIS. I told the man who had brought us down there.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mrs. DAVIS. That I thought number 2 was the man that I saw.

Mr. BALL. That you saw?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. By number 2, was the man you saw the man you saw doing what?

Mrs. DAVIS. Unloading the gun.

Mr. BALL. And going across your yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day that you were at the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was after 8, I am sure.

Mr. BALL. After when?

Mrs. DAVIS. After 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. On what day?

Mrs. DAVIS. On Friday, the same day.

Mr. BALL. The same day? It was after 8 o'clock on Friday, the same day that you had seen the man unloading the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any way of fixing the time of when the man ran across your lawn, approximately?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not exactly because I had laid down with the children and I didn't pay any attention to what time it was.

Representative FORD. You saw him take the shells out of the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he was shaking them.

Representative FORD. He was shaking them?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out.

Representative FORD. Did you find this one bullet at the point where you saw him shake the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; it was around the side of the house.

Representative FORD. About how many feet?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. Not too far.

Representative FORD. But he had moved from the one point to where you found the bullets?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mrs. DAVIS. That is where they started looking for it.

Representative FORD. I meant the shells rather than the bullets.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw him running across the lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color coat?

Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him fullface.

Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes?

Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, when you heard the shots you were lying down, were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone lying with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia was laying on the couch.

Mr. BALL. In the same room with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did she go to the door with you when you went to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. She went right behind me.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that was going across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How is it different?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket.

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt which is Commission Exhibit No. 150. Was that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the man had on who went across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. I thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. Where was Mrs. Markham when you first saw her?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was standing right here on this corner.

Mr. BALL. That picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That picture that you refer to is photo number 3, Commission Exhibit 524.

It is as shown on the corner here, as the woman who is shown in the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. That was her position.

Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had your eyes examined recently?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was in October when I applied for some driver's license.

Representative FORD. In October of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Representative FORD. You applied for a driver's license?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was the first--some time in October, I believe.

Representative FORD. When you applied for a driver's license in Texas you have to take an examination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And you did take one?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did they recommend that you wear glasses?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. He said my eyes are all right.

Representative FORD. He said your eyes were all right?

Mr. DULLES. Have you had any problems with the law at any time?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Except for traffic violations?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you. What is your husband's occupation?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. DULLES. What?

Mrs. DAVIS. Puts shingles and roofs on houses.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes, surely.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, before you went down to look at the man at the police station at 8 o'clock that night, had you seen television pictures of the man on television that he had been arrested?

Mrs. DAVIS. As far as I can remember I don't remember seeing it because I was out in the yard all the time that was going on, and I don't believe the TV was on.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw the man in the lineup were you shown a picture of any man by a police officer?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you read a newspaper and see any pictures in a newspaper, picture of a man in the newspaper, before you went down there?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't really know. I couldn't be quite sure. I can't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you take an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. DAVIS. We take an afternoon paper, we took an afternoon paper then.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not you did see a picture in the paper of the man?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. I don't even remember whether I read it or not. There was so much excitement.

Mr. BALL. When the man ran over the lawn, can you give me an estimate of how far away he was from you?

Mrs. DAVIS. I can't.

Mr. BALL. Make a judgment about it as to this room. Is it as far away from you to me?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about as far as here to the corner of the room out there, or just a little bit more, the far corner.

Representative FORD. Just a little less, did you say?

Mrs. DAVIS. About like that.

Mr. BELIN. About seven or eight steps?

Mr. BALL. About 20, 25 feet, is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. There is an affidavit that has been filed with us, a statement you made to the Secret Service men on the first of December 1963. And in that affidavit, it says, after describing that "The man was on the sidewalk directly in front of me and shaking shells from a pistol into his hand as he walked,"--this says here, "The man was walking in a normal direction and walked across the corner of my property towards Patton Street."

Did you ever tell anyone that you saw the man walking in a normal direction?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I showed them where it was at, and they done that.

Mr. BALL. I see. He was walking--what direction?

Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't know. And so they figured that out.

Mr. BALL. He was walking towards what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was going down Patton.

Mr. BALL. Towards what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jefferson. And so they figured it out for me.

Mr. BALL. However--when--did you see the man after he went around the corner of your house?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you see the taxicab parked on the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to that afternoon, and you give your best memory of what the man looked like. Don't think of what anybody has told you or what has happened in between. Try to remember the vision you had of that man--the color of his hair, the size of his build and so forth.

Mrs. DAVIS. You mean weight and like that?

Mr. BALL. He was white, wasn't he?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Light complexioned, or dark?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was more light complected than he would have been dark.

Mr. BALL. Color of his hair?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was either dark brown or black. It was just dark hair.

Mr. BALL. And the color of his clothes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat over it.

Mr. BALL. About what age would you say the man was?

Mrs. DAVIS. I am not very good on that. I don't know. I would say he was about 23, 24.

Mr. BALL. And what about his weight and height?

Mrs. DAVIS. I----

Mr. BALL. You have to be general, I know that.

Mr. DULLES. Just your best recollection. If you haven't any, just tell us.

Mrs. DAVIS. I just don't know.

Mr. BALL. Was he fat or slender?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was slender built, and not very heavy.

Mr. BALL. Was he a tall man, or a real short man, or average?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, he wasn't especially tall. I would say he was about medium height or a little taller. I mean he wasn't extra tall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have some difficulty in identifying this No. 2 man in the showup when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, they made us look at him a long time before they let us say anything.

Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them.

What was your reaction when you saw this man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis.

Mr. DULLES. Did your sister-in-law go with you to the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did she make an identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. At the same time as you did?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see her identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't discuss it.

Mr. DULLES. I mean, but after she had made it, did you see what identification she had made?

Mrs. DAVIS. Do you mean--I don't understand what you mean.

Mr. DULLES. Well, let me start over again.

Did you identify the man in the lineup before your sister-in-law?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Before your sister-in-law?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; I was the first one.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Did your sister-in-law, to your knowledge, make the same identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; she was there with me at the same time.

Mr. DULLES. She was standing with you. And she saw the identification you had made?

Mrs. DAVIS. All I done was just lean over and tell the man.

Mr. DULLES. How did you make your identification? By pointing or holding up your fingers.

Mrs. DAVIS. The man that was sitting next to me just asked me which one I thought it was, and I leaned over and told him. And then he leaned around me and asked her.

Mr. DULLES. He did what?

Mrs. DAVIS. He leaned around--he was behind me, and asked her.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mrs. DAVIS. I sort of set up where he could talk to her.

Mr. DULLES. And did you identify the man by number or by pointing?

Mrs. DAVIS. By number.

Mr. DULLES. Do you remember what number it was?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was number 2. From the left.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any questions?

Representative FORD. Did you whisper this information to the man behind you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we were all sitting in a line, and he was sitting on this side of me. He just leaned over and asked me which one I thought it was.

Representative FORD. He was sitting on your right?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you turned to your right and told him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And your sister-in-law was sitting on your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. On the other side, yes.

Representative FORD. When you spoke to him, you were speaking away from her?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you speak in a loud voice or a whisper?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; very quietly.

Representative FORD. You think your sister-in-law heard you say the number?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know.

Mr DULLES. Mr. Attorney General, have you any questions?

Mr. CARR. Thank you, I do not.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions.

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that although the witness did not receive the letter notifying her of our request for an appearance, we mailed it to her last known address at 400 East 10th Street, and the letter came back here. But the notice was mailed to the witness. It was just that it was not forwarded to where she now lives in Athens.

Mr. DULLES. You had moved from this house where these incidents took place?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. You are excused. Thank you very much.

Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Mr. Ted Callaway.

TESTIMONY OF TED CALLAWAY

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Callaway, in the absence of the Chief Justice, I am presiding over the meeting of the Commission this morning.

Would you kindly raise your right hand?

Do you swear that the testimony that you will give to this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And nothing but the truth?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You may be seated.

Mr. Ball, will you proceed?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway, we are investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. We are going to ask you questions with regard to what you saw on the day of November 22, 1963, in Dallas.

Where do you live?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 805 West Eighth.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Car salesman.

Mr. BALL. We would like to know something about your background. We ask most of the witnesses these questions.

Where were you born?

Mr. CALLAWAY. In Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Dallas?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Went to school in Dallas?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Forty.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Two years of college.

Mr. BALL. What college?

Mr. CALLAWAY. S.M.U.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of college?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I worked part time as a clothing salesman downtown, and then my uncle was a painter, and I worked for him for awhile. Then I went back in the Marines for 3 years.

And I have been selling cars since '56.

Mr. BALL. You are a used-car salesman?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you employed--have you had any trouble with the police of any sort?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No.

Mr. BALL. Any difficulty at all in your life?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; never.

Mr. BALL. You were discharged from the Marines, were you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What year?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 1954.

Mr. BALL. Received an honorable discharge from the service?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working?

Mr. CALLAWAY. At Harris Bros., auto sales.

Mr. BALL. And what was your job?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I was used-car manager.

Mr. BALL. Now, Harris Bros. Auto Sales is located where?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Where is that from 10th and Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just one block.

Mr. BALL. One block south?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What corner?

Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be on the northeast corner.

Mr. BALL. So that we can orient ourselves from 10th and Patton--I have marked this diagram as Commission Exhibit 537.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 537 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, will you, on 537, take this and mark the location of the used car lot with an "X"?

Mr. CALLAWAY. All right, sir.

Right here.

Mr. BALL. The "X" marks the position of the used-car lot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, around 1:15 or so of that day, where were you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I was standing on the front porch of our office.

Mr. BALL. That is at 401 East Jefferson?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No; 501.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture which we will mark as 538.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 538 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this show a picture of the office?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. That is it.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went down there one day last week to have some pictures taken.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you attempt to stand in the same place you were at the time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were standing November 22d around 1 o'clock or so?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots.

Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sound, could you tell the source of the sound?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir, I could tell it was back of the lot over toward 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, I could see--I was still--before I got to the sidewalk, I could see this taxicab parked down on Patton. I saw the cabdriver beside his cab, and saw a man cutting from one side of the street to the other. That would be the east side of Patton and over to the west side of Patton. And he was running. And he had a gun in his hand, his right hand.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. That would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the arm bent at the elbow, is that right?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; just like this.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here, 539.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 539 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. When this picture was taken, did you try to represent the place you were standing when you saw the man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you get there?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran.

Mr. BALL. You ran from the place on the porch, is that right?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. From right here, to there.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were at the place shown on 538, on the porch?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not. But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you came to this position, you say you saw a taxicab?

Mr. DULLES. Where is this position on this chart? Right here?

Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be about right here. I come off the porch here.

Mr. DULLES. Point 29?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You saw a taxicab where, on photo 29?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Let's mark an arrow there, about where you saw the taxicab. The arrow marks the position of the taxicab. You saw a man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was crossing Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? Closer to you than the taxicab?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was running.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you noticed he had the gun? Or where was he when you noticed he had the gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. When I first saw the gun, he had already crossed from here to here and was coming up this sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Coming up the sidewalk on which side of Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. West side of Patton.

Mr. BALL. And did he continue to come?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you say anything to him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you say?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered "Hey, man, what the hell is going on?" When he was right along here.

Mr. BALL. Make a mark there where he was when you yelled, "What the hell is going on?" "X" marks the place where the man with the gun was when you yelled at him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark it on this chart, too--Exhibit 537?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right along here--about 27. I guess. That would be it. You see, here is where I was, sir. And then he was right there when I hollered at him.

Mr. DULLES. I don't get this. There is an alleyway there, apparently.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. But here is where the squad car was.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. And here is where the cab was.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. He had come all the way down?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He had come from there through this yard and cut behind this taxicab, over to this side of the street.

Mr. DULLES. So he was there, then?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. I didn't holler at him until he came up to here. He was running up this sidewalk.

Mr. DULLES. He was going south on Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. On the west side of the street.

Representative FORD. You saw him run from about the taxicab----

Mr. CALLAWAY. Across the street, up this sidewalk.

Mr. DULLES. About how far is that? Fifty feet or more?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, it is more than that. From here down to there, I think is about 300 feet.

Mr. BALL. Mark on this diagram, which is 537, where the man was, and the course he took.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, now, when I first saw him he was right here. Then he came across here, down this way.

Mr. BALL. Down to the point where you spoke to him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. What did he do when you hollered at him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He slowed his pace, almost halted for a minute. And he said something to me, which I could not understand. And then kind of shrugged his shoulders, and kept on going.

Mr. BALL. Show the course he took on the map, if you will.

Mr. CALLAWAY. All right.

Right on down here, and he cut through this front yard.

Mr. BALL. And where was he when you last saw him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Right at that point?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first "X" marks the position of the parking lot--we will mark that 1. The place of the taxicab we will mark as 2. The place where the man was with the gun when you yelled at him, we will mark that as 3. The last place you saw the man, that we will mark 4.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now----

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.

Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the corner.

Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.

By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. He did.

Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said, yes.

I said, "If he is going up Jefferson, he can't be very far. Let's see if we can find him." So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up to 10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson to Beckley. And we turned on Beckley. If we had kept going up Jefferson, we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him, because he was headed right towards the Texas Theatre. But then we circled around several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it happened.

Mr. BALL. And the ambulance--had the ambulance been there by that time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, yes; the ambulance already left before I ever left with the cabdriver.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police station later?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That evening.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I think it was around 6:30 or 7 o'clock. I remember it was after dark.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there alone?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. I went with Sam Guinyard, a colored porter of ours. He saw him, also.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. CALLAWAY. We drove down. Officer--Detective Jim Leavelle met us, and took us into this room where they showed us the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Now, before you went down there, had you seen any newspaper accounts of this incident?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I had been out there on the lot. I hadn't seen a newspaper, hadn't even heard a radio, really.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen any television?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen a picture of a man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No.

Mr. BALL. The officer show you any pictures?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went into a police lineup, in a room where they had a lineup of men?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Four.

Mr. BALL. And were they all the same size, or different sizes?

Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same build, but the man that I identified was the shortest one of the bunch.

Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the same age?

Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same age, yes, sir. They looked--you know.

Mr. BALL. And you say you identified a man. How did you do that?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well----

Mr. BALL. Tell us what happened.

Mr. CALLAWAY. We first went into the room. There was Jim Leavelle, the detective, Sam Guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. We waited down there for probably 20 or 30 minutes. And Jim told us, "When I show you these guys, be sure, take your time, see if you can make a positive identification."

Mr. BALL. Had you known him before?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.

I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.

Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he ever was to you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet.

Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mr. BALL. Tell them the size?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; I told them--I think I told them about 5'10".

Mr. DULLES. Did you see his front face at any time, or did you only have a side view of him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He looked right at me, sir. When I called to him, he looked right at me.

Mr. DULLES. You saw front face?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here--Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across the street with a gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it.

Mr. BALL. Same type?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt, 150. Does it look anything like the shirt he had on under the jacket?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Sir, when I saw him he didn't have--I couldn't see this shirt. I saw--he had it open. That shirt was open, and I could see his white T-shirt underneath.

Mr. BALL. He had a white T-shirt underneath?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. That is the shirt he had on in the lineup that night.

Mr. BALL. Was he fat or thin?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was just----

Mr. BALL. I mean the man you saw across the street?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a nice athletic type size boy, I mean. Neither fat nor thin.

Mr. BALL. What did you estimate his weight when you talked to the officer before the lineup?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him it looked to me like around 160 pounds.

Mr. DULLES. How fast was he going when you hailed him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a good steady trot, not real fast.

Mr. DULLES. He was not walking and not running--it was a trot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. A trot; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He stopped?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Almost. He slowed down, like a guy is trotting along, and he almost stopped, and kept going.

Mr. DULLES. And he looked at you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; he said something, but I could not understand it.

Mr. DULLES. You could not understand what he said?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then did he resume his progress at a trot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Searcy if he followed him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He didn't follow him.

He said something about "Follow him, hell. That man will kill you. He has a gun."

So instead of following him, he went back over and got behind the office building.

Mr. DULLES. Did he see him at any time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; he saw him the same time I did; yes, sir. I never could figure out why he didn't just follow that man. You could follow 50 yards behind him and keep a guy in sight. Chances are you wouldn't get killed 50 yards away.

Mr. DULLES. Had you had previous military service?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; I was in the Marine Corps 6 years, World War II, and during Korea.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever tangle with the law in any way?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What years were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 1942 through '45, and then '51 through '54.

Mr. DULLES. Were you in Korea?