Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something of that sort? Anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. No statement like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before--did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.

Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. BALL. No one of the four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.

Mr. BALL. No one of all four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.

Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't----

Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there----

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two.

Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told them I wanted to be sure, and looked at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just----

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked at his clothing, but I looked at his face, too.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you saw shoot the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had these dark trousers on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that.

Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have any jacket on when he was in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers.

(Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face.

Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure.

Mr. BALL. Now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I would say it was four, a little after.

Mr. BALL. That was four in the afternoon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was so upset I couldn't even tell you the time. In fact, I wasn't interested in the time.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. Can you give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? I realize that is a very vague question.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. He looked wild. They were glassy looking, because I could see----

Mr. DULLES. He had no glasses on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. When we looked at each other, he just stared, just like that. I just don't know. I just seen him--I would know the man anywhere, I know I would.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did you ever see this before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, I know it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment I was so excited----

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see a shirt the color of this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that.

Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.

Mr. BALL. All right. I have some pictures here that I would like to show you. I have Exhibits 521 and 522, which have been marked as Exhibits. Here is one picture, 521. Do you recognize that as the sign down?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is the corner of Patton and 10th.

Mr. BALL. Patton and 10th.

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is on the corner of Patton and 10th.

Mr. BALL. Yes. Was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was.

Mr. BALL. After the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, take this pen and put an X as to the point when he looked at you and you looked at him.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was right along here.

Mr. BALL. Put an X.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know. I am too nervous.

Mr. BALL. At the time the man was standing at X in this picture, at this location, which is shown in 521, where were you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this.

Mr. BALL. Were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I was.

Mr. DULLES. Where was the car, where this car is?

Mr. BALL. No, I have another picture I will show her. I have here Exhibit 522; do you recognize the white house in the picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the driveway next to it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that show the location of the police car at the time it stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. That is the big old white house, 404.

Mrs. BALL. That is right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. 10th Street, and this driveway and this house.

Mr. DULLES. Will you give us an idea, Mr. Ball, as to where she said she was on this picture? Was she over here?

Mr. BALL. We have a picture. There is a booklet here that has been prepared by a succession of witnesses. We have a general diagram here which I will show the witness at this time.

Mrs. Markham, there is a diagram here which shows 10th Street going in an easterly and westerly direction, Patton running north and south.

(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 523 for identification.)

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you understand that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This would be the corner I would be at.

Mr. BALL. No, this would be Patton. This is north and south. Jefferson is down here. Can you locate yourself?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is 10th?

Mr. BALL. That is 10th.

Mrs. MARKHAM. And this Patton?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the corner of 10th and Patton.

Mr. BALL. That is right. But which corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Northeast corner is where I was standing.

Mr. BALL. Northeast or northwest? This would be northeast and this would be northwest. Here is where the squad car would be. Right there. Here is 404.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this corner then.

Mr. BALL. Well, that is northeast and that is northwest. Were you kitty-cornered?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was kitty-cornered from it like this.

Mr. BALL. Like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast, southwest, and here is the car. We are going down the street now.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this--that would be on the opposite side.

Mr. BALL. That is right. Look at a number on that and tell me where you were standing.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing right at the curb.

Mr. BALL. Do you see a number?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number 5.

Mr. BALL. Number 5 on this diagram would be indicating the place where you would be standing, is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the opposite corner from that.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I have got to get you to tell me where you were standing. Picture yourself going down Patton towards Jefferson.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Going down Patton?

Mr. BALL. You were coming from this direction. Your home was up here.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was coming down Patton. It would be this corner.

Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course down the sidewalk.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it?

Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge.

Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a picture. Do you recognize that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where you were?

(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.)

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went which direction down the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then put an arrow showing what direction.

Mrs. MARKHAM. From here----

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side.

Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was the man when you looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way.

Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you standing when he was looking at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position.

Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, together with the picture which illustrates the diagram.

The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers?

Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I think this will explain it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you recognize this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It shows a corner.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came back and looked at you.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this.

Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting until the time you saw the man on the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it again.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you heard?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his hands on the window----

Mr. DULLES. The window was open?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this.

Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or where the driver was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps.

Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit----

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.

Mr. DULLES. And what happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, that man shot him.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood.

Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around to the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where Oswald was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around.

Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the man.

Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He didn't fall, just clumped down like that.

Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the officer started to go around the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like that, no, sir.

Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had I would have kept walking, not walking, running.

Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was.

Mr. DULLES. Slow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit 527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way.

Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere near where Tippit fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell this way.

Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right this way. He fell this way.

Mr. BALL. Into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying like this.

Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of blood?

Mr. BALL. Out to the left.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here.

Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners.

Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems his hat was this way.

Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the most?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? Did you actually see blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there.

Mr. DULLES. I know you were there.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it.

Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was here, coming out here.

Representative FORD. The blood was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this time, up to 526, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I must attend a session of the Court.

Mr. DULLES. I will, sir.

(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him.

Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman.

Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And caught up with him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from New York?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this Commission, page 51. This is what he said:

"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit."

Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.

Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy.

Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something. What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair.

Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I never talked to nobody.

Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other means?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a person who asked you these questions?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows:

"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers."

Did you ever make that statement to him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody.

Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing.

Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too.

Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a gray jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers.

Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, on this point?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek.

Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say you talked with someone who came from France?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but my boss could.

Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so long.

Mr. DULLES. When was that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date.

Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after.

Mr. DULLES. Some time after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. Can you describe this man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of----

Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me.

Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set?

Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the man.

Representative FORD. Did he have an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did.

Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because of this accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me.

Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him.

Representative FORD. Did he identify which government?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American citizen?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me.

Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they did not.

Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and answers?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it.

Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess.

(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.

Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did look at his feet.

Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking.

Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was black-haired. I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. Red complexion?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned.

Mr. BALL. You didn't say that?

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one other?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. Life magazine?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in.

Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two.

Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just those two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately over to where the police officer was lying in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Was he alive?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't make out what he was trying to say.

Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.

Mr. BALL. Soon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.

Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember it the way it took off.

Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.

Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to get help, begging for somebody to help me.

Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was standing and screamed plumb across the street.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said?

Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, really it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember----

Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver.

Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton.

Mr. BALL. On Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab.

Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you have something additional?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like----

Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat what she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will you just repeat that for Congressman Ford?

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman----

Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman.

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no hurry. I thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops.

Mr. DULLES. He stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at each other.

Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I froze.

Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run slowly.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Then----

Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off.

Mr. DULLES. Trotting off?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running to this police car. He was not out of sight.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out like that.

Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton Street. He cut across Patton Street like this.

Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight when I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to Mr. Tippit.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions?

You can be excused, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. Attorney General?

Mr. CARR. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain you. There is something that might come up with the next witness, and we might wish to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We are very grateful to you, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad car, Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like to have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake.

Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit?

Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now.

(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this Commission.

Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes.

Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please.

Mr. Scoggins, the Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this morning.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this morning.

Will you proceed?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the Commission.

Will you proceed please?

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the record.

Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska.

Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Co. I drive out of Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of my schooling was down in McLennan County.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to work?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job.

Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City.

Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After I left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed there 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. CCC camp?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas.

The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, and then I moved to Dallas.

I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there approximately 15-1/2 years, and then I have been working for the company, taxicab company, for a couple of years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at 321 North Ewing.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is 125 Patton.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke.

So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.

Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.

Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a police car cruising east there on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the intersection of Patton and 10th?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop sign had been.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or the west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or the south side of the intersection?

Mr. SCOGGINS. South side.

Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying there, it had been bent over.

Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you happen to be stopped there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, and that is what I had done.

Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for calls?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, they give us the address, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right here, you see, on 10th.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of the picture. What is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over.

Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton.

Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also Exhibit 528.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, Exhibit 523, which would indicate the approximate location of your car during the period that you are describing here?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10.

Mr. BELIN. You are not pointing to number 10.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it?

Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9.

Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11.

Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area.

Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523.

Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east on east Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.

Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.

Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?

Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.

Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way.

Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my eating, and about that time I heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.

Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.

Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?