Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it.

Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.

Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From where you were?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all----

Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram----

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.

We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.

Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you three men?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was it opened then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window.

Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Here is 488.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.

Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.

Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot at.

Mr. DULLES. One of the other two?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was.

Mr. DULLES. Said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew he had been shot at.

Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you show me where that window was.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is 489.

(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.

Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.

Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.

Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until Friday morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, because I hadn't been reading the papers.

Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the mornings before I leave home would be the sports.

Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way.

Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here.

When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.

Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.

Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.

Mr. BALL. You really ran?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it or not----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?

Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends----

Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows.

Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.

Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high.

Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw----

Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.

Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.

Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.

Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some pictures.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you 490.

(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the bookshelves I was speaking of.

Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the camera?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was standing looking out this window.

Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.

Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.

Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.

Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what location?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.

Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.

We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time.

Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, as where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here.

Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture?

Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, 492?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long while? Or was it put there recently?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I can remember.

Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.

Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did you say that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.

Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?

Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner.

Did you run down stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.

Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.

Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.

Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and----

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.

Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.

Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.

Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers?

Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.

Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced?

Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.

Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including 492 will be admitted.

(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions.

When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that.

Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have seen on the fifth floor window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.

Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting--Givens?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.

Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, you know.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting.

Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that.

Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

Mr. DULLES. I have one question.

You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound.

Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.

Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.

You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.

Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?

The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean----

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.

Mr. BALL. Let's identify.

Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.

Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?

Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.

Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.

Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?

Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. BALL. I don't know.

Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. I understand.

Any questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.

Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you----

Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I----

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the----

Mr. BRENNAN. Left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.

Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you----

Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.

Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.

Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window.

Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this.

Mr. BALL. No questions.

You may be excused, Mr. Brennan.

You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, Mr. Jarman.

Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all.

Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all.

Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back.

Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN

I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NORMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school?

Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there.

Mr. BALL. From high school?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there?

Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe.

Mr. BALL. 1961?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And you work there now?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co.

Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that?

Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Porter.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this new job?

Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's leave after we got off for New Year's.

Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him?

Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there?

Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't----

Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I wouldn't engage in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The order fillers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper?

Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped out.

Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November 22? Can you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. That is as far----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't--yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

Mr. BALL. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he filled orders for?

Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman.

Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he filled, you know.

Mr. BALL. He filled those orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept?

Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the 22d?

Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 minutes until 8 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. You weren't late?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work.

Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. NORMAN. The first.

Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?

Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that?

Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I----

Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up?

Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom.

Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room.

Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Right next to it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?

Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in the morning until you got it at noon?

Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.

Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?

Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour?

Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period.

Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?

Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?

Mr. NORMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?

Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.

Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce--we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?

Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.

Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?

Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.

Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the motorcade?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further than that.

Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. 482. Do you recognize anybody in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were looking?

Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast corner?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which you were looking.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482.

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself.

Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you standing up or sitting down?

Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up.

Mr. BALL. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you sitting?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in a hunched over position somewhat like this.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, didn't you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a photographer?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought we were in during the time of the motorcade.

Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there.

Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this position here.

Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the street, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking to the public.

Mr. McCLOY. Saluting?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With which arm?