Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is just above the two grooves, which are known as cannelures, where the bullet is crimped. It is known as the crimp ring. It is nothing more than where the case has been crimped in.

Mr. EISENBERG. I have pulled out the bullet from Exhibit 591, and there is a little groove running above the second groove from the top--from the bottom, the base, of the bullet.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would be your crimping groove. Up at approximately that area, both .38 Specials are approximately .357". However, the bases of the .38 Specials, both brands, are about .350".

In other words, there is about 7/1000ths difference between the base and where they are crimped, and both brands of .38 Specials seem to run--slightly undersized at the base.

On the .38 Special the diameter of the bullets where they are crimped is .357". The .38 S&W Remington-Peters bullets run about .360", or just slightly less, which is about 3/1000ths larger. Their bases, both brands, run about .356". In other words, they run about 6/1000ths larger at the base--even though the bullets are shorter overall in the .38 S&W.

Mr. EISENBERG. To summarize that, in terms of the diameter, do I understand that the .38 Special and the .38 S&W have a similar diameter as you approach the nose of the bullet, but that the .38 has a somewhat larger diameter at the base than the .38 Special?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, why would the gun be rechambered from the original chamber, which was designed for the .38 S&W, to the chamber as it stands now, which you tell us is designed for the .38 Special?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this country, the .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge at the present time. In years gone by, many, many, many weapons have been made for that particular cartridge. But they are usually the top-break, the cheaper type of weapon. The .38 Special cartridge is a better cartridge. There is a higher velocity and everything about the cartridge is better than the .38 S&W, ballistically.

The .38 Special has become popular in this country for revolvers. And the reason it was chambered in .38 S&W originally is because in England and on the Continent it is a popular cartridge. The .38 S&W in England is the .38-200. They loaded a 200-grain bullet into the same cartridge case, and it was the standard British Army load for this particular weapon and others. Why they took that particular cartridge, I do not know.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was the gun rebarreled as well as rechambered?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. The barrel of this weapon has been cut off approximately 2-3/4 inches. The original barrel was 5 inches for this model.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would the failure to rebarrel affect the accuracy of the weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It should slightly, if you are firing .38 Special bullets, because they are slightly undersized in a .38 S&W barrel. On the average, .38 S&W barrels are approximately 4/1000ths larger than the normal .38 Special barrel. In this particular weapon, that holds true.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would it affect accuracy at close range?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. And there, again, the shortening of the barrel would affect the accuracy more than the use of .38 Special, due to the fact that your sight radius has been cut down.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, when you shorten the barrel, the length between the front and the back sights is shorter, therefore giving more room for error?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, the movement of the front sight will cause more of a discrepancy at the target at longer ranges, due to the shorter sight radius.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any functional reason for cutting the barrel down to its present short size?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Sales appeal, I would say, is the main reason. Also, concealment.

Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is a short barrel, cut-down barrel weapon like this usually purchased for legitimate purposes by other than police officers?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Possibly a collector. Among target shooters, it is not a popular weapon, due to the short sight radius. Revolvers with 6-inch barrels are very accurate weapons. A target shooter would not use a weapon of the short barrel type. Therefore, it is not a very popular weapon for sportsmen.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the cutting off of the barrel increase the possibility of concealment?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does, because it makes it handier. I carried, when I was in the field 5 years--I carried my personally owned firearm, which had a 2-inch barrel, due to the fact that for concealment you could not see it when I wore a suit, and it was more discreet in the type of work I was doing.

The CHAIRMAN. Can both kinds of cartridges be used interchangeably in this gun?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular gun, yes sir. It makes no difference.

The CHAIRMAN. Either an S&W or S&W Special?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the chambers of this particular cylinder have been bored out, it appears from the very rough marks, to accommodate the forward portion of a .38 Special cartridge. Also, when this barrel was made--or the cylinder was made--the chambers had a shoulder or lip that the .38 S&W cartridge case would fit up against. The bullet would go forward farther, but the cartridge case would fit up against this shoulder at the neck.

And in order to chamber a .38 Special, that forward portion had to be bored out slightly, several thousandths to accommodate the longer cartridge, which, by the way, is a very common thing on these surplus weapons. Practically all of them are being rechambered, due to the popularity of the .38 Special cartridge.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, this weapon--was this weapon sold into the United States after it had been used in England?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much sign of use does it show?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has definitely been used, there is no doubt. However, the cylinder is quite tight, and I would say that this weapon is in good operating condition.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, since it was sold used, are you unable to attribute any amount of use to the last user?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right, you would not be able to tell.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain briefly the manner in which this revolver is operated, paying particular attention to extraction and loading and reloading?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. First of all, the weapon has a frame into which a barrel has been screwed and a cylinder which is hinged on a crane is also fitted into the frame. There is a cylinder release on the left-hand side of this weapon which enables one to push the cylinder to the left.

The cylinder has six chambers--in other words, it is a six-shot weapon. There is an extractor rod and an extractor in the rear portion of the cylinder. When you press on the extractor rod, either loaded cartridges or fired cartridge cases may be extracted from the cylinder so that it may be reloaded again.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, in the operation of this weapon, the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. In the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except six consecutive trigger pulls?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. You can fire this weapon either single or double action.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the meaning of that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Double action is accomplished by pulling the trigger. In other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you can fire this weapon six times before reloading. This weapon can also be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. This is known as single action.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you are loading in there--for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham extracted the five expended cartridge cases merely by one push of the ejector rod.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge case--later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen if you ejected these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine.

Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues.

Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected were .38 Special cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were.

Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special bullets in this revolver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that it is now 9:45. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could this revolver be loaded on the run, or while walking?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you personally loaded a revolver like this while walking?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And running.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does this revolver have a serial number on it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read that number to us, please?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. V-510210.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this serial number unique to this particular type of weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Smith and Wesson does not duplicate numbers. You may have a similar number, but not with the prefix "V."

Mr. EISENBERG. So this is the only such weapon with this serial number that is in existence?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. As far as I know. I have never found one in my experience, and Smith and Wesson does not duplicate serial numbers in a particular series of weapons.

Mr. EISENBERG. Smith and Wesson claims not to duplicate?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, how fast could one get off shots from this weapon, shooting rapid fire, and without sighting?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In a combat stance, that is crouched, with a gun at belt level, and your wrist locked, you would have no trouble at all getting off five shots in from 3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. With what degree of accuracy at close range?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent. All FBI agents, for instance, practice at 7 yards, which is 21 feet, and we are hitting in the "kill zone" without any problem.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much training would one have to have with this weapon to get four hits in four or five shots at close range into a human body?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever--if you can pull the trigger and point directly at a person, at 8 feet you would not likely miss--with one exception. If you did not lock your wrist, there is a possibility you could shoot too low, or you could pull to the side. Anyone with a little bit of knowledge and with--and really grabbing hold of the weapon, would have little difficulty at all at that distance.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "lock your wrist," do you mean just pointing the wrist so that it is in a straight line with your lower forearm?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. In other words, to tighten it, and not be in a relaxed position. By merely tightening the wrist, you would have no trouble at all hitting a person, approximately the same distance as Mr. Eisenberg and myself.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose a person who had the normal small-arms training that he gets in the Marine Corps would have the ability to do what you have just spoken of?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, sir. As a matter of fact, with any training at all with a revolver, I would say that he would hit 90 percent of the time.

Representative FORD. Is there a recoil action at all from this kind of weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; you get recoil. But if you have had any training with a weapon of this sort, the recoil is not even noticed. The first time you ever fired this weapon the recoil or the noise, might bother you. But if you have ever fired a handgun, you don't even think about recoil. You automatically adjust.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, you mentioned distance between you and me earlier, a few sentences ago. Could you estimate that distance?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Approximately 8 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the revolver, I propose to move on to identification of bullets and cartridge cases associated with the Tippit murder.

The CHAIRMAN. I have none.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you Commission Exhibits Nos. 145 and 518, which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets which were found in the revolver and the pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest on November 22. I ask you whether you are familiar with the bullets in these exhibits.

You are now looking at which exhibit, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518.

I have seen them before.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of one Western .38 Special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead bullet, and the other cartridge is a Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you another group of bullets, marked Q-82 through Q-86.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, would you state for the record at this time what those two bullets are? They are introduced another time.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; all the bullets which Mr. Cunningham examined were found either in the pocket or the--pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald--or the cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on November 22.

I now hand you another group of bullets marked Q-82 through Q-86, and with certain other markings on them.

Are you familiar with these bullets? And may I state for the record that the bullets I have just handed Mr. Cunningham derive from the same source.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am familiar with these bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe these briefly?

Before I do that--Mr. Chairman, may I have these bullets admitted into evidence as a group, as Exhibit 592?

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 592, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. At this time, I shall have to leave to attend a session of the Supreme Court.

Commissioner Ford, would you preside?

And, during the morning, Commissioner Dulles will be here, I am told, and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please?

Representative FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. Cunningham, thank you for your assistance. Glad to have seen you.

(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in Exhibit 592, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; all five of them are Western .38 Special cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that of a total of--you have examined a total of 11 bullets, and three are Remington-Peter--well, at any rate, of the 11 they are divided 3 and 8 into Remington-Peter and Western .38 Special bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four cartridge cases in an envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77. And I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases.

Mr. Cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases I just handed you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from, and how they were presented to you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of the two cartridges that we received--the FBI received from the U.S. Secret Service. We received them on December 3, 1963.

That is correct. They were personally delivered to the laboratory by Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI, who is a liaison agent with the Secret Service. And he delivered them to us on December 3, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did he identify them in any way to you when he delivered them? Did he describe their origin to you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; he did not describe them to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Could you go on to the next group of five cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I don't know the exhibit number.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 592.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 592 was received in the FBI Laboratory from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us who you received them from?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Dallas office of the FBI. I have no first-hand knowledge. I know that they were received from the Dallas Police Department--but that was due to what I have read in an FBI investigative report. The laboratory received them from the Dallas office on November 30.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you go on to the last group of four bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518 was also received from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald. They were then split into two groups of two and four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the Secret Service and eventually, as Mr. Cunningham relates, to the FBI, and four bullets going to the Dallas office of the FBI.

The group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald, following his apprehension on November 22 and was kept separated from the remaining bullets, I believe, merely because they had been taken from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of the revolver.

Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that nick had been so caused by a firing pin.

First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no indication that it was made by a firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you microscopically examine the bases of both cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to Exhibit 518, consisting of four bullets, which, as I mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in Exhibit 145, taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just by handling, there are bound to be small microscopic scratches of one kind or other. But there was no indication that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a firing pin.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were these also examined microscopically?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were, individually.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there was no indication that they were struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is--yes and no. It depends on how far it is drawn back. As soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired. But up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge.

However, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of approximately 3 feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the chamber.

Representative FORD. How far back does the hammer have to be drawn in order to fire?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder. By holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch.

Mr. EISENBERG. The witness is demonstrating.

The hammer, as he says, is going back about 3/8 of an inch.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. Then you can cock the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the trigger?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. A snapping sound can definitely be heard.

Mr. EISENBERG. There is a very audible snapping sound. Would that snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge case against which the firing pin----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Under these conditions it could not leave a mark, because the rebound block is in the way.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say rebound block, this is a block between the firing pin and the base of the cartridge case?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger to go forward after it is pulled back. You see, your trigger will snap back. It is done by a spring in the block.

Mr. EISENBERG. To put it differently, this block would prevent the firing pin from emerging from its hole?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That is exactly it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without having traveled a considerable distance back? That is, to say, at what point does the rebound block release the hammer?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately--well, right there you can hear it. That is a good half inch.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull it back and then release that half an inch to disengage the rebound block?

(The witness did so.)

Mr. EISENBERG. If the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any possibility it would not be fired? Any substantial possibility?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would still make a mark.

Mr. EISENBERG. It would make a mark, at any rate?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me clarify it. It still will not fire because the block will go forward.

Mr. EISENBERG. What will go forward?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the trigger has to be pulled through the whole cycle in a Smith----

Mr. EISENBERG. In order to disengage----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Either that, or cocked before the block will be out of the way. When you pull the trigger and you don't release it or if it is in the cocked position and the trigger is pulled and not released, the hammer will stay forward. The firing pin will stay forward, so you can see it out through the breech face, as long as the trigger is pulled. Then when you release the trigger, the rebound block throws your trigger forward, so the weapon can be fired again.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are modifying what you had said previously?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you do that upon closer examination of the weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; it is on the basis of trying to describe an internal part without seeing it. If you would care to, I can show you what it looks like. I have a photograph of the National Rifle Association breakdown. It would be easier to explain if I could show you what I am referring to.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you, please?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Before you refer to this diagram, could I take a look at it?

Congressman Ford, could I have that diagram admitted into evidence?

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 593.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 593, and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. Mr. Eisenberg, do you want the whole article?

Mr. EISENBERG. I think we might as well put the whole article in, yes.

(To Mr. Cunningham.) Perhaps it would be easiest if you came around here, since the diagram is a small one.

Now, the diagram which you are referring to is on page 61, the second page of this Exhibit 593?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Right.

As you can see, it is a diagram with the sideplate removed, which is this portion right here. It is the right-hand side of the weapon. (Witness pointing to revolver.) We are looking down on it with the sideplate on. These four screws hold on the sideplate.

When you pull the trigger of----

Mr. EISENBERG. The sideplate is marked 20 over here?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--No. 20 is the sideplate.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the diagram.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 42 in the diagram is the trigger. There is a sear arrangement on the trigger, attached to the trigger. If you cock it, the sear arrangement will go up into a notch on the hammer right there, and hold it back--right in here.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is number----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You see, this is the sear.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you use numbers?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. No. 39 is the sear, and the sear is attached to the trigger, which is No. 42 in the diagram.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we are referring to the first page of the exhibit.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. When the trigger is pulled on this particular weapon, or if the hammer is drawn back, there is a notch on the hammer which is engaged by the sear. When the hammer is back you have to pull the trigger to disengage the sear mechanism from the hammer. When you pull back and it is in the notch, that is known as single-action firing.

Also, No. 30 in the diagram is known as the rebound slide or block, and this rebound slide is positioned right behind the trigger on an internal part of the weapon. When the trigger is pulled, the recoil slide runs in a horizontal direction. As you can see by the larger drawing right here--it is a small camming action. It comes up, and is being pushed back.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the middle of the second page of the exhibit.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Now, do you see the rounded portion of the hammer right here, right in front of the notch?

Mr. EISENBERG. That is No.----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Number--on No. 42, the hammer, on the bottom, right next to the notch that the sear engages, is a rounded portion. That is--in actuality, this rebound slide acts as an internal safety, so the hammer cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled or it is cocked, because it is in the way. It cannot go all the way forward, due to the fact that--right there you can see it very plainly in the schematic numbered drawing on page 2.

Mr. EISENBERG. The number you are pointing to is what?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is on the trigger, number----

Mr. EISENBERG. Forty-two?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Not trigger--the hammer, No. 34.

By the way, on the prior 42 I meant 34. I got the wrong number. I was referring to the right piece, but the wrong number.

But you can see this little--it is like a curved portion. It prevents the hammer from going any further forward. The firing pin will not come out of the hole in the breech face.

Now, as soon as you pull the hammer back, the rebound slide, No. 30, is out of the way.

Also, when you pull the weapon through double action, that slide pushes back, and your sear doesn't even touch the groove in the hammer, but it just keeps on going right on through. In other words, you are pulling the trigger strictly against the mainspring all the way. When it is on the notch, it is being held, and the only pressure needed, is to take off the sear.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, Officer McDonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22d, while Oswald was in possession of this revolver, has stated that--I am reading now from an affidavit, from a letter from Officer McDonald to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police of the Dallas Police Force, dated December 3, 1963.

He states in this letter that as he came in contact with Oswald, "I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip, I heard the snap of the hammer, and the pistol crossed over my left cheek. I marked the pistol and six rounds at central station. The primer of one round was dented on misfire at the time of the struggle with the suspect."

Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, could you comment on this statement?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired.

It is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed it, that he locked the cylinder, which I think any trained police officer would do. You want to stop this cylinder from rotating. As soon as you do that, you have actually stopped the hammer falling on a live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as I was stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of the cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the cylinder is so interconnected with the trigger, that the trigger cannot be pulled all the way back when the cylinder has been firmly grasped?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And if the hammer has not been pulled all the way back, the rebound slide will not allow the firing pin to strike the cartridge?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if the firing pin had struck the primer, it could only have been after the trigger was pulled all the way back, under the discussion you have just given us, is that correct?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Or after cocking.

Mr. EISENBERG. Or after it had been cocked and pulled?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; if it is in the cocked position, grabbing the cylinder will do you no good; due to the fact that in the very operation of cocking this weapon, the cylinder is rotated, and it is ready to be fired.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in either event, the hammer would have traveled almost to the outermost extremity to which it can go. That is, the hammer would have traveled back all the way, whether it was cocked or fired in a double-action manner. If that had happened, what would the likelihood be that upon returning to the cartridge case, it would not fire the cartridge case--that upon returning to the cartridge, the cartridge would not be fired?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You mean actually the hammer had gone all the way through its cycle?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can only say that from my examination internally, as well as having fired this weapon--I found no reason why you would get a misfire with this weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a man had put his hand between the hammer and the point at which the hammer enters, with the firing pin, into the breech face, would that stop the weapon from firing?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes and no. It is very possible that you can do it. And it hurts, by the way, because the mainspring in this one--you can see the indentation in my thumb--is a very strong mainspring. It would be possible. You could put something in there.

Now, the question is when you pull that object out, would there be enough distance and enough force to set off the primer?

That is quite a moot point, because you could grab the hammer and recock it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from that question, would the man's finger or whatever object he stuck in there be firmly fixed for a second or two, between the hammer and the breech face?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could be.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would he feel the impact?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. He would definitely feel the impact--if he had a piece of tissue of his hand in between. Now, if a piece of material, of course, went between it which I don't know how it could happen--if you were struggling over the gun, and he said he grabbed the gun--I don't know how he could have anything except a portion of his hand, and I am sure he would feel it if the trigger was pulled.

Mr. EISENBERG. Finally, if he had just grasped the cylinder, and Oswald had pulled back on the trigger, could you demonstrate the sound which might have been heard?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you can hold it, and you get a snapping sound--if the gun is grabbed away forcefully, and he would be really grabbing hard. So there could have been an attempt to shoot and a snap would be heard. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. The only thing which is unlikely is that the primer would be dented on the misfire?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would not get any denting if the cylinder was held and the gun was jerked forcibly out of Oswald's hands. You would hear the snap, but you would get no mark on the primer whatsoever.

The same thing he could hear if he jerked it out of his hands and he accidentally, somehow, hit the hammer--you would still get a noise, a snapping sound. But the firing pin would not come in contact with the primer of the cartridge.

Representative FORD. Because of the discussion we had a few minutes ago?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Using the diagram that was inserted as Exhibit 593.

Mr. EISENBERG. One final question. Officer McDonald says in this letter, "I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol."

Now, would that grip in itself in any way interfere with the action of the pistol--the revolver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know what he means by that.

Mr. EISENBERG. If he means what he says, that is, if he got a secure grip on the butt----

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he got a secure grip on the butt, that would take him away.

Mr. EISENBERG. Take him away from what?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would take him away from the cylinder. If you are fighting over a weapon, the first thing is to get it off of you and then get hold of the cylinder. And then you can get both hands on the gun to jerk it away. That is what I would do.

As I say, it is the way we are taught. You want to get the gun off of you first, so you are not in direct line, and then go in and attempt to get it away from the person.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose the gun was pulled away from Oswald as Oswald had his grip on the trigger, so that he could not get the trigger through the complete cycle. Would there be a snapping noise made?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely. If you locked the cylinder and jerked it away, you would get a snapping noise.

Mr. EISENBERG. Suppose you did not lock the cylinder, but for some reason or other the full trigger cycle was not gone through?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Then you would also get it. It would be difficult, but you could get it.

Mr. EISENBERG. How hard do you have to pull on that trigger in order to fire the weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. For double action--that is, without cocking, it is approximately 11 to 12 pounds, which is normal for this type of weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I handed you earlier four cartridge cases in a plastic envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, also marked C47-C50. Are you familiar with these cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. I have previously looked at them.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. Right on the side of each one, right there.

Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive these cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These cartridge cases were received from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I would like to state that these cartridge cases were found in the immediate proximity of the site at which Officer Tippit was killed. They were found on the ground near the street where Officer Tippit was killed on November 22.

Representative FORD. These are the ones that were found in the street near the automobile?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, either in the street or in a lawn in front of a private residence, or semiapartment house.

Representative FORD. I see. In other words, they were possibly some of those that were on the lawn in the front of 400?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; again, for the record only, since this witness is unable to testify as to where they were picked up. The mechanism of this revolver is such that the shells are not ejected until the user decides to eject them--unlike a bolt-action rifle where the cartridge must be ejected where you shoot from.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to have these four cartridge cases introduced into evidence as 594.

Representative FORD. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 594, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe the make of these cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Two of these cartridge cases are Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge cases. The other two cartridge cases are Western .38 Special cartridge cases.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you examined earlier six bullets which I told you had been--six cartridges which I told you had been taken from the chamber of the revolver which we have been looking at.

Those cartridges were divided into three Remington-Peters and three Western, were they not?

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that--or 50-50. So that the division is the same, the division of the cartridge cases is the same, as between Remington-Peters and Western, as the division of the cartridges found--which I told you were found in the chamber?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 in an attempt to determine whether they had been fired in Exhibit 143, the revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us your conclusion?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a result of my examination, it is my opinion that those four cartridge cases, Commission Exhibit 594, were fired in the revolver, Commission Exhibit 143, to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Mr. EISENBERG. When did you perform this examination, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On November 30, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you make the examination?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I first marked these cartridge cases upon receiving them. There were four. I would like to state, first of all that Special Agents Frazier and Killion also independently examined these four cartridge cases, and made the same comparisons that I am going to state. I am telling you what I found--although they independently arrived at the same conclusion.

The cartridge cases were first marked and examined for the presence of any individual characteristic marks on these cartridge cases whereby it would be possible to identify them as having been fired in a weapon. I then test-fired Commission Exhibit 143, using similar ammunition, and microscopically compared the four cartridge case--one at a time--that is Commission Exhibit 594--with the tests obtained from the revolver, Commission Exhibit 143.

Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you here two cartridge cases, and ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. And can you describe these cartridge cases to us?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. One is a Western .38 Special cartridge case. The other is a Winchester .38 Special cartridge case.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you get possession of these cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These were test-fired in Commission Exhibit No. 143, by myself.

Mr. EISENBERG. So these are the test cartridges you were referring to?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That was a portion of them; yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as Commission Exhibit 595?

Representative FORD. They will be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 595, and received in evidence.)

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I also would like to state that we were test firing Remington-Peters, also.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many test cartridges were fired, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. To begin with, three. And we have since fired the weapon many times.

Representative BOGGS. How many cartridges were fired by Oswald?

Mr. EISENBERG. We are going to get into that. This is a difficult question which you are going to have to make a decision on. So I would rather develop that slowly.

I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the side, Mr. Cunningham.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the .38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split slightly.

Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the operation?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject it.

Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned before, by the way, that there had been no misfires with this weapon. Approximately how many times was the weapon fired altogether?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing exactly, but I imagine we are approaching close to a hundred times by now.

Mr. EISENBERG. And no misfires?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And no misfires.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, did you take photographs of the cartridge cases which you have just identified as having been fired from 143, and the cartridge cases which are Commission Exhibit No. 595?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make your identification on the basis of the photographs or on the basis of your examination under the microscope?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. My conclusions were arrived at strictly on the basis of my examinations. These photographs in no way entered into the identification and are strictly for demonstrative purposes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us these photographs, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let's take them one at a time, and let's introduce them as exhibits, one at a time. I have here--you have given me five photographs. Did you take each of these photographs?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a matter of fact; I did. I personally took these.

Mr. EISENBERG. And these are photographs of what?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are photographs of the individual characteristic marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on test cartridge cases obtained from Oswald's revolver, and also the marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on the cartridge cases, Commission Exhibit No. 594.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted, if you would, as 596, 597, 598, 599, and 600.

Representative FORD. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 596 through 600, and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. Will the witness explain to the Commission what they mean?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; he will. Did you also make a photograph of the breech face of the weapon, Mr. Cunningham?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. I didn't take this photograph. I was present when it was taken. I have compared the negative with the actual breech face of Commission Exhibit 143, and I found it to be a true and accurate reproduction.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us that photograph? May I have that admitted as 601, Mr. Chairman?

Representative FORD. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 601, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us the area of the revolver which corresponds to the area shown in the photograph, Exhibit 601?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The cylinder was first removed to facilitate the photograph. That is very easily done by removing the forward sideplate screw, which is just above the trigger, which allows the crane to slide right out, and the cylinder removed.

The photograph was taken from the right side, looking in toward the firing-pin hole.

Representative BOGGS. Just the way you are holding the revolver now?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; just the way I am holding it now.

Representative BOGGS. With the cylinder removed?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. With the cylinder removed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, there is a cylindrical-shaped object in the center of that picture, Mr. Cunningham. Could you describe what that is--right in the center of the picture?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is known by two different names. It is known as a hammer-nose bushing, or a recoil block. It is--Smith and Wesson presses this particular block in. It forms the hole through which the firing pin comes out of the breech face.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the firing pin strikes the center of the cartridge, or the primer, as it is called?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which causes the cartridge to fire. Now, what is the magnification of the photograph of the breech face?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of the breech face, it is approximately 17 times.

Mr. EISENBERG. There are a number of markings or lines on this breech face. Are these the microscopic characteristics which reproduce on the cartridge cases?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And are the microscopic characteristics of this breech face individual to this weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is your method of determining that a given cartridge case has been fired from a given weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The breech face marks, as well as the individual imperfections in the firing pin.

Representative BOGGS. Let me ask a very elementary question, the answer to which I used to know years ago, but I have forgotten. Just exactly what does the firing pin do? What happens after that strikes?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it is easier to start with the cartridge itself. The components of a cartridge are a bullet, a cartridge case, a primer in the base of the cartridge case, and powder.

Now, the primer is made out of a very soft metal that can be dented. These primers at manufacture are filled with, basically, an explosive. For instance, Remington-Peters cartridges have PETN, which is one of Du Pont's explosives. RDX is used as one of the components of Western cartridge cases, as well as lead styphnate, lead azides, and other explosive materials.

When the firing pin strikes, there is a small explosion. Fire is given off----

Representative BOGGS. How does that bring about the explosion?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is sensitive to detonation by a sharp blow.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the primer is sensitive?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it is an explosive. To differentiate from the powder, which is not explosive. Powder burns.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I have taken Commission Exhibit No. 591, which consists of an unfired cartridge, and there is a round circle in the middle of the base of that cartridge. Is that the primer?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. That is actually a separate entity that has been pressed into a hole in the base of the cartridge case.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that is more sensitive to shock than the powder in the cartridge case itself?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Powder is relatively insensitive. You don't set off powder by a blow.

Mr. EISENBERG. But the primer is quite sensitive?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is normally. I am talking about a normal blow. The primer is very sensitive. I just named a few of the components, but there are many other compounds in priming mixtures, which are considered secret by each company. But I know that they are explosive mixtures. And the actual striking of the firing pin--with enough force--causes a small detonation to occur. The fire given off, goes through holes in the base, and into where the powder is, and starts the powder burning. It is the gases that are given off when powder burns, which actually cause the bullet to move forward--the pressure builds up behind it, and the bullet goes forward.

Representative BOGGS. That is a very good explanation. Thank you.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I wonder whether you could review the pictures with us, and discuss some of the markings which you found in those pictures that led you to decide that the cartridge cases shown therein have been fired in the revolver we have been discussing.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. The first photograph is a photograph of the breech-face marks, the individual characteristic marks remaining on test cartridge cases obtained from the revolver, and on the C-50 cartridge case that was recovered from the scene. C-50 is on the left. C-15 is on the right. And the hairline, the magnified hairline down the center separates the two cartridge cases.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the invariable procedure to put the test cartridge on the right and the suspect cartridge on the left? Or at least is that your standard procedure?