Chapter X: Part 10

Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator COOPER. Back on the record.

Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.

Senator COOPER. If you want to?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away.

Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity?

Mrs. PAINE. To charity.

Senator COOPER. That is all I have.

Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.

Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form?

You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.

Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the text and statements that are made in there had your approval?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by?

Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling.

Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written?

Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the document we have just identified.

Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 460, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has appeared from your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call Communist Party leanings.

Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front groups?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right.

If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate.

I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.

Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the Communist faith?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.

Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.

Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection--that episode in your life?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and say I have been interested in other languages before being interested in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke that language.

Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young----

Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women----

Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by?

Mrs. PAINE. That organization.

Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection with this plan of Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had been indeed for sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please?

Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.

Mr. JENNER. In 1947?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl?

Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.

Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old?

Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.

Mr. JENNER. Going on 15?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then?

Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at least in the Quaker activity?

Mrs. PAINE. Both.

Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young people's society in Columbus at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the national young Friends group.

Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that?

Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that?

Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.

Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people?

Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends.

Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?

Senator COOPER. 9 years ago?

Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Vacation period?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what?

Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.

Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at Quaker Haven in 1955?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.

Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?

Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?

Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It is received.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.

Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.

We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.

Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group?

Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.

Mr. JENNER. If you once had it?

Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed?

Mr. JENNER. In this letter period?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course.

Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.

My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.

Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.

Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?

Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure propaganda.

Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?

Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.

Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?

Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.

Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?

Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.

Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.

I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.

Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor?

Mrs. PAINE. There?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.

Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other?

Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name?

Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her?

Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.

Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?

Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Her mother is?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.

Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution?

Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?

Mrs. PAINE. Summer term.

Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Who is your student?

Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man?

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. JENNER. How old is he?

Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know?

Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that.

Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire?

Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much.

Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?

Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a little bit, your voice has been dropping.

Mrs. PAINE. I am tired.

I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit.

Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.

Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?

Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?

Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. PAINE. We have not.

Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.

Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?

Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to----

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)

_Tuesday, March 24, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly.

These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.

Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you?

Mr. BRENNAN. 45.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter.

Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter?

Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?

Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job.

Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?

Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?

Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.

Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President.

I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.

Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to----

Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston

Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?

Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what----

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken on the 20th of March?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction?

Mr. BRENNAN. South.

Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. At about 12----

Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.

Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true----

Mr. BRENNAN. True location.

Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg.

Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.

All right.

And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.

All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.

There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed.

There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?

Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.

Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now?

Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?

Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw--standing or sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see--at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?

Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.

Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except----

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot----

Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.

Mr. BELIN. About what weight?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. BELIN. A white man?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean?

Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers.

Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do?

Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.

And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.

I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.

I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was.

Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. He----

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir?

Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?

Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes ago----

Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the two----

Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that.

Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side.

Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them.

Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them.

I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them.

Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom?

Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer.