Chapter III: Part 3

So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when----

Mr. JENNER. You left the home?

Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.

Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.

What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?

Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to----

Mr. JENNER. He was coming?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.

Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?

Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.

Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?

Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.

Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?

Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.

Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.

Mr. JENNER. To your door?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?

Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?

Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?

Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?

Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.

Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning----

The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?

Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.

I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.

Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.

All right, now tell us about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. The map?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.

Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.

Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. She did not?

Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?

Mrs. PAINE. June.

Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?

Mrs. PAINE. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.

Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. At any time?

Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.

Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I may know why I was going.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.

Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.

I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.

Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.

Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.

Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?

Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?

Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?

Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?

Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.

Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have----

Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.

Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after----

Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?

Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

It is that occasion that I have in mind.

What did he have with him in the way of luggage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip----

Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.

Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there.

That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?

Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?

Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.

Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?

Mrs PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?

Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. None at all.

What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?

Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the----

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call----

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.

Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?

Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said----

Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.

Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.

Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Only the one?

Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?

Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?

Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.

Mr. JENNER. In the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. The next day----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.

Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.

Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.

Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.

Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?

Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?

Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?

Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.

Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where----

Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.

Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.

I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.

The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?

Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.

Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?

Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred----

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.----

Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas," does not give a time of day.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.

Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.

If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.

I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.

I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.

Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?

Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.

Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What happened?

Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?

Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.

Did you hear her end of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?

Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.

Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?

Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.

Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.

Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.

Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.

Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.

Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?

Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.

Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number--did you record it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what?

Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.

Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.

Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.

Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.

Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.

Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?

Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. What?

Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.

Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. No address?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.

Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?

Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the----

Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.

Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the hospital?

Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. What day?

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.

Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.

Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.

Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.

Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night.

Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.

He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.

Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.

Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.

Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?

Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.

Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?

Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.

Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?

Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.

Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?

Mr. JENNER. That is right.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?

Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.

Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.

Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.

Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?

Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?

Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.

Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?

(The reporter read the question and answer.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.

Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?

Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?

Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.

Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.

Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?

Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.

Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not----

Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.

Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.

Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.

Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.

Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.

Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?

Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.

Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.

Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?

Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.

Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book.

Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me----

Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?

Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.

Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. Was it----

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.

Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.

Mr. DULLES. I realize that.

Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.

Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?

Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.

Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?