Chapter XXVI: Part 26

Dr. PERRY. The condition of this area?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. There was both blood, free blood and air in the right superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the lungs and the heart at that level.

As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or an underlying injury to the lung.

Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high in such instances.

Mr. SPECTER. What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY. Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax through my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by the injury to the trachea?

Dr. PERRY. They were.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was the pronouncement of death made?

Dr. PERRY. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom was death announced?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why it was Dr. Kemp Clark who pronounced the President had died?

Dr. PERRY. It was the opinion of those of us who had attended the President that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent massive loss of blood, and thus Dr. Clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed the death certificate.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, would the President have survived the injury which he sustained to the neck which you have described?

Dr. PERRY. Barring the advent of complications this wound was tolerable, and I think he would have survived it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the treatment which was rendered to the President by the medical team in attendance at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. PERRY. In essence I have, Mr. Specter. I do not know the exact quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. I mentioned the 300 mg. of hydrocortisone Dr. Carrico ordered and, of course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously recorded. The quantities of substances or any other drugs I have no knowledge of.

Mr. SPECTER. In general you have recounted the treatment?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated for the record all of the individuals who were in attendance in treating the President that you can recollect at this time?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now describe as specifically as you can, the injury which you noted in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. As I mentioned previously in the record, I made only a cursory examination of the President's head. I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue. My examination did not go any further than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you, to be specific, observe a smaller wound below the large avulsed area which you have described?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. There was.

Mr. SPECTER. Which might have obscured such a wound?

Dr. PERRY. There was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the cartilage.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe as particularly as possible the neck wound you observed?

Dr. PERRY. This was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the neck, approximately 5 mm. in diameter.

It was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. Its edges were neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the neck wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound,

Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point I made the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. It could have been either.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.

Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5-mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.

Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

Dr. PERRY. Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have sufficient facts available to you to render an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in any way with your findings and opinions?

Dr. PERRY. They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate on that last answer, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. There was some considerable speculation, as you will recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from whence they came. Dr. Clark and I were queried extensively in respect to this and in addition Dr. Carrico could not determine whether there were one or two bullets from our initial examination.

I say that because we did what was necessary in the emergency procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination. I did not ascertain the trajectory of any of the missiles. As a result I did not know whether there was evidence for 1 or 2 or even 3 bullets entering and at the particular time it was of no importance.

Mr. SPECTER. But based on the additional factors provided in the autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. The wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled with the wounds I have observed it would appear there were two missiles that struck the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And based on the additional factors which I have provided to you by way of hypothetical assumption, and the factors present in the autopsy report from your examination of that report, what does the source of the bullets seem to have been to you?

Dr. PERRY. That I could not say. I can only determine their pathway, on the basis of these reports within the President's body.

As to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding it, I would not have any speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. From what direction would the bullets have come based on all of those factors?

Dr. PERRY. The bullets would have come from behind the President based on these factors.

Mr. SPECTER. And from the level, from below or above the President?

Dr. PERRY. Not having examined any of the wounds with the exception of the anterior neck wounds, I could not say. This wound, as I noted was about 5 mm., and roughly circular in shape. There is no way for me to determine.

Mr. SPECTER. Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, it would.

In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you been a part of or participated in any press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom, if anyone, were the press conferences arranged?

Dr. PERRY. The initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, was arranged by Mr. Hawkes who was identified to me as being of the White House Press, and Mr. Steve Landregan of the hospital administration there at Parkland, and Dr. Kemp Clark.

They called me, I was in the operating suite at the time to assist with the care of the Governor, and they called and asked me if it would be possible for me to come down to a press conference.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did that call come to you, Doctor?

Dr. PERRY. I am not real sure about that but probably around 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that call?

Dr. PERRY. I put in a page for Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland since they were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where I met Mr. Hawkes and Dr. Clark. And from there we went up to classrooms one and two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed with gentlemen and ladies of the press.

Mr. SPECTER. In what building was that located?

Dr. PERRY. This was in Parkland Hospital, in the classroom section.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify which news media were present at that time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; there were numerous people in the room. I would estimate maybe a hundred.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors spoke at that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark and I answered the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. Who spoke first as between you and Dr. Clark?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can the questions which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave?

Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, I would preface this by saying that, as you know, I have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that time, and I cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. They, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. The press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as have been given here. I was asked, for example, what I felt caused the President's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help.

Mr. SPECTER. What responses did you give to questions relating to the source of the bullets, if such questions were asked?

Dr. PERRY. I could not. I pointed out that both Dr. Clark and I had no way of knowing from whence the bullets came.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you asked how many bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, or more. We were given, similarly, to the discussion here today, hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such could have been the case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable that it was only one bullet, but I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you observed in the President, as you stated it?

Dr. PERRY. Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for these two wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What bony structure was it conceivably?

Dr. PERRY. It required striking the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a professional opinion that that did, in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have happened?

Dr. PERRY. I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized that we had no way of knowing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now recounted as specifically as you can recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. I do not recall any specific details any further than that.

Representative FORD. Mr. Specter--was there ever a recording kept of the questions and answers at that interview, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. This was one of the things I was mad about, Mr. Ford. There were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on this side and recorded by some one on this, and I don't know who was recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. There were tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their microphones. I know there were recordings made but who made them I don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were asked, I am sure were misunderstood. It was bedlam.

Representative FORD. I was thinking, was there an official recording either made by the hospital officials or by the White House people or by any government agency?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Representative FORD. A true recording of everything that was said, the questions asked, and the answers given?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any reasonably good account in any of the press of this interview?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask----

Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked.

Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what you and others said?

Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported our statements exactly as they were given. They were frequently taken out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or identification as to which person was who.

Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did you say?

Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I don't even recall.

Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a physician were saying, or others were saying?

Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I said yes, it is conceivable.

I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable and not give a straight yes or no answer.

"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was happening over and over again. Of course, Dr. Shires, for example, who was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one press release as chief resident.

Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it.

Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior, whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not impressed with the accuracy of the press reports.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well. Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the President's neck.

You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been impaired?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx, and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed without any difficulty.

Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away?

Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for them to do so.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot wounds?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could observe?

Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs.

Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the President before he was--common knowledge.

Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound or an entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all because he didn't even see it.

Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, and actually I was rather anxious to leave.

Mr. McCLOY. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences.

And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have that as a matter of record.

Is that feasible?

Dr. PERRY. That is, sir.

Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general statement?

Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated in another clipping.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points.

Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this.

Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself, or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the quotes concerning themselves.

Mr. DULLES. That would be correct.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, just any statement alluded to have been made by me.

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better.

Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman?

Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure.

Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings.

There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr. McClelland----

Mr. DULLES. Which paper?

Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry, because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York, Dallas and other cities were to no avail.

The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make them available.

Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports in the news media and what Dr. Perry said at that time, and the facts which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript today.

Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this catalog and comparison might be made?

Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can turn it over.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed.

I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to the actual statements that the doctor has made.

Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today.

So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until we have had a further chance to review this situation.

What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so forth and so on.

Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally, too?

Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg.

Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation.

Mr. SPECTER. I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas?

Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination that you set upon?

Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen?

Dr. PERRY. The following day.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or your secretary?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in McAllen, Tex.

Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your response?

Dr. PERRY. This was denied.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions?

Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the Saturday Evening Post?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding the appearance of that article as you felt them to be?

Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am told, that they would not print anything.

However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and published.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the level of accuracy of the contents thereof?

Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an article in print.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur?

Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation?

Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?

Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?

Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you had with Comdr. Humes, please?

Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this be done at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative procedure that you have described?

Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were covered by this blood.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because you made the comment during the course of the testimony today.

But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck wound prior to the tracheotomy?

Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room.

However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision.

Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck.

Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound?

Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I went to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work?

Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or dead on arrival at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there was spontaneous activity of the heart.

He was, therefore alive for medical purposes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at Parkland in the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time?

Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present in the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the nurse handed me my coat.

At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, and some gentlemen whom I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of President Kennedy?.

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him over and examine the back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had nothing further to offer.

Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of the treatment which you have described that you performed?

Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray.

Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for declaring that the President was dead?

Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself particularly since we were the senior people there.

I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony today described all of the wounds in the President which you have observed?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was the President of the United States?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal wound.

At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact of what had happened began to hit me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was necessary to do some arterial surgery.

It was not, however, so I did not operate.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating room where Governor Connally was being cared for?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been completed?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory were in attendance?

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw.

Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory?

Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s.

Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries.

Representative BOGGS. Surely.

Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was obvious that this was an extremely serious wound.

Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him?

Dr. PERRY. He was.

Representative BOGGS. That is all.

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed body did you see?

Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side.

Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it?

Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr. Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the emergency room just as he was being brought indoors.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the point where you received the notice that he was en route until your arrival at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body?

Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the right side under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means?

Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line?

Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled surgery until they were bringing him directly up.

Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we proceeded with the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time you arrived there?

Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of Anesthesiology.

I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already described up to the operating room?