Chapter XVI: Part 16

2. I have read the original of a letter dated November 5, 1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald from Farrell Dobbs, and have initialled it so that it may be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 11 for the typewritten copy shown me on April 17, 1964.[C] I have no doubt that it is a letter I wrote, and the signature is mine.

3. I have initialled the original of a letter dated December 9, 1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald, signed "Bob Chester," so that it may be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 12 for the typewritten copy shown me on April 17, 1964.

4. As requested on pages 19-20, I have made a further search of our files for the letter and reproductions from Lee H. Oswald referred to in the Bob Chester letter but have found no record of them. Further, I have discussed this matter with Mr. Chester and he advises me that he has had a vague recollection that the reproductions were of headlines from the _Militant_ but has no further recollection of any correspondence with Lee H. Oswald.

5. As requested on page 21, I have made a further search for a copy of R. Watts Exhibit 13 and for the letter and clipping referred to in it as from Lee H. Oswald but have been unable to find any such material in our files.

6. As requested in J. Lee Rankin's letter to Mr. Rowland Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of the Young Socialist Alliance and am advised that its files have been searched and that its representatives have found no record that Lee H. Oswald's name was ever referred to it, nor does it have any record of ever having had anything in its files from, to, or concerning Lee H. Oswald.

7. In pursuance of the information supplied in Mr. Rankin's letter to Mr. Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of _The Militant_ and have had its files further searched. There is no photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, with or without a rifle, in its files (other than a clipping from the daily press after he was taken into custody). I am confident no photograph of him was ever received prior to President Kennedy's assassination.

8. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have submitted to you all of the material in the files of the Socialist Workers Party, _The Militant_, and Pioneer Publishers, concerning Lee Harvey Oswald, and I have no further material or information concerning him.

Signed the 4th day of June 1964.

(S) Farrell Dobbs,
FARRELL DOBBS.

[C] Since all of the Rowland Watts Exhibits have been
redesignated as Farrell Dobbs Exhibits, R. Watts Exhibits
Nos. 11, 12, and 13 referred to in the above affidavit have
been marked Farrell Dobbs Exhibits Nos. 11, 12, and 13,
respectively.

AFFIDAVIT OF VIRGINIA GRAY

The following affidavit was executed by Virginia Gray on May 28, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, _County of Durham, ss_:

Virginia Gray, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Virginia Gray. I am the Assistant Curator of Manuscripts of the Duke University Library, Durham, North Carolina, (the Library) and the person most familiar with the records of the Socialist Party of America which are now in the possession of the Library.

2. The records of the Library reflect that it purchased the original official records of the Socialist Party of America covering the period from 1900 to 1938 from Leon Kramer, a New York dealer in Leftist literature. Since the time of that original purchase the Library has become the unofficial repository for files of the Socialist Party of America and periodically acquires the inactive records of that organization.

3. On or about January 2, 1959 the Library acquired certain records of the Socialist Party of America from Mr. Stephen Siteman, Executive Secretary of that Party, 112 East 19th Street, New York, New York.

4. A letter dated October 3, 1956 addressed "Dear Sirs" from Lee Oswald and an advertisement coupon of "The Socialist Call", photostatic copies of which are attached to this affidavit, were found in those materials while they were being processed by the Library.[D]

5. The Library has received additional materials from the Socialist Party of America and is presently processing such materials. As of the date of this affidavit, however, the only materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald which have been found amongst the records of the Socialist Party of America presently in the possession of the Library are those of which photostatic copies are attached.

Signed the 28th day of May 1964.

(S) Virginia Gray,
(Mrs.) VIRGINIA GRAY.

[D] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit
have been marked Gray Exhibit No. 1.

AFFIDAVIT OF DR. ALBERT F. STAPLES

The following affidavit was executed by Dr. Albert F. Staples on May 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Dallas, ss_:

Dr. Albert F. Staples, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Albert F. Staples. I reside at 6056 Ellsworth Street, Dallas, Texas. I am a dentist at the Baylor University College of Dentistry and am familiar with the records in possession of the College relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

2. I have caused a search of the files of the Baylor University College of Dentistry which reveals a file on Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. The foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. To the best of my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession or control of the Baylor University College of Dentistry. Accordingly under my supervision photostatic copies[E] have been made of this entire file, such copies being attached to this affidavit.

3. On information and belief the attached photostatic copies are of the entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession and control of the Baylor University Dental Clinic.

Signed the 26th day of May 1964.

(S) Dr. Albert F. Staples,
Dr. ALBERT F. STAPLES.

[E] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit
have been marked Staples Exhibit No. 1.

AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY

The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF NEW YORK, _County of Broome, ss_:

I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being duly sworn say:

1. In 1961 I was a sophomore at the University of Michigan. In March of 1961, I was a member of the University of Michigan band which toured Russia and the Near East.

2. We arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R. from Moscow on March 10, 1961. While in Minsk, the band gave some concerts at the Minsk Polytechnic Institute. We stayed in a hotel in Minsk. We left Minsk on March 14 and proceeded to Kiev, U.S.S.R.

3. There was an evening in Minsk when members of the band were divided into small groups, each of which was assigned a Russian interpreter, for the purpose of going on a tour of the facilities of the Minsk Polytechnic Institute.

4. Near the conclusion of this tour, at about 10:00 p.m., when the band members were boarding a bus, I became surrounded by Russian students who were asking me questions. Although one student was interpreting I was having difficulty communicating with them.

5. At this point, an American approached and offered to act as an interpreter. I accepted the offer. While I never really had a chance to talk with him, he mentioned that he was an ex-Marine from Texas. Sometimes he spoke with a Texas accent and at other times he spoke with an English accent. Somehow I got the impression that he was working in Russia and that he never intended to return to the United States.

6. This American appeared well dressed. I think he wore a camel hair coat and possibly a tie. He did not indicate if he had been at the concert.

7. After just a few minutes of further questions from the Russian students, with the American interpreting, I boarded the bus. I never again saw nor heard from this individual. I noted in my diary something about the incident, and I wrote that this American seemed to be a crackpot. I did not meet any other Americans in Minsk.

8. I have seen pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspaper, and the individual I saw in Minsk very much resembles Oswald as pictured. I recall that the person I saw seemed to have more hair and was heavier than Lee Harvey Oswald as pictured in the newspapers.

9. Except possibly for this one occasion in Minsk, I never saw nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed the 20th day of July 1964.

(S) Katherine Mallory,
KATHERINE MALLORY.

AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY

The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF NEW YORK, _County of Broome, ss_:

I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being duly sworn say:

Following my telephone interview on July 10, 1964 with Mr. Richard Mosk, I rechecked my diary of the University of Michigan Symphony Band Tour and letters which I sent to my parents. Therefore, I append the following minor corrections of statements in the interest of being as accurate as I can.

Statements 3, 4, and 5. I made no mention of the tour of the Institute and therefore cannot verify the details of the arrangement, i.e., small groups. However, I recall that the tour preceded the talent show. The following is a statement from my diary; "Tonight the students at the Bilo (sic) Russian (White Russian) Polytechnic Institute put on a talent show for us ... (description of performance).... Afterward Jerry Anderson and I missed getting out with our crowd and we were mobbed by the students. I met a boy from Texas (now a Russian citizen) who translated questions and answers for me." In a letter to my parents dated March 17, 1961, "The first night we were there, the students of the Polytechnic Institute gave us a reception and put on a very nice talent show. Afterwards, we all were mobbed by the students. I met a young man probably about 26 who is from Texas but after the war he became a citizen of Minsk. It was rather weird meeting an ex-American but he did come in handy as an interpreter for me and the other students I was talking to."

Statement 7. While I am sure that in conversations about this incident I applied term "crackpot" I did not note it in my diary.

All other statements prepared on the basis of the telephone interview are true.

Signed the 20th day of July 1964.

(S) Katherine Mallory,
KATHERINE MALLORY.

AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. MONICA KRAMER

The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Monica Kramer on July 17, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, _County of Santa Barbara, ss_:

I, Mrs. Monica Kramer, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly sworn say:

1. In 1961, Miss Rita Naman and I took a trip to Europe which included a visit to the Soviet Union. Miss. Naman had purchased a Singer automobile in Great Britain and we drove through Europe and the Soviet Union.

2. When we were in Moscow staying at the National Hotel, we met Mrs. Marie Hyde, who, to the best of my knowledge, presently resides in Port Angeles, Washington. Mrs. Hyde was desirous of driving with us to Warsaw. Such an arrangement was made.

3. My travel notes indicate that we arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R., on August 10. After arriving at our hotel, we were asked to take a guided tour of Minsk. We subsequently found out that after we left the hotel, our bags had been searched. Out Intourist Guide's name was Svetlana.

4. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859d, is a photograph taken by Miss Naman in Minsk on August 10, 1961. As I recall, it was taken between 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. The building in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture is the one that was then owned by Miss Naman. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with me, the woman standing next to her. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know.

5. On every occasion that we stopped while on the trip through Russia, people would gather around the automobile and look at it. As a result, we became accustomed to this and therefore paid little or no attention to these people.

6. I cannot recall these three men. I never spoke with them. It now appears to me that the man in the middle, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved plaid shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose picture I have seen in the newspapers.

7. I recall that Miss Naman spoke with somebody in Minsk who spoke English. They talked about records. I do not recall if this person was Lee Harvey Oswald.

8. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961.

9. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed the 17th day of July 1964.

(S) Mrs. Monica Kramer,
Mrs. MONICA KRAMER.

AFFIDAVIT OF RITA NAMAN

The following affidavit was executed by Rita Naman on July 17, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, _County of Santa Barbara, ss_:

I, Rita Naman, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly sworn say:

1. I am in the real estate business in Santa Ynez, California, and I live with Mrs. Monica Kramer.

2. In 1961, Mrs. Kramer and I took a trip to Europe. I purchased an automobile in England, and we drove it through Europe and the Soviet Union.

3. While in Moscow we stayed at the National Hotel. There we met Mrs. Marie Hyde, who, as far as I know, currently resides in Port Angeles, Washington. We arranged to drive her to Warsaw, Poland.

4. All three of us left Moscow and travelled to Minsk, U. S. S. R. We arrived there on August 10, 1961. After going to our hotel, I was called by the Intourist Office and asked to go there. The official at the Intourist Office wanted to know why I was in Russia. He appeared hostile. I suspect that they were interested in me because in Moscow, I had given a person who claimed to be a student a Newsweek Magazine along with my business card. The official then insisted that Mrs. Kramer, Mrs. Hyde, and I go on a tour of Minsk. When we returned to our room after the tour, we found that our luggage had been searched.

5. Our Intourist guide's name was Svetlana. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859 d, is a photograph taken by me at this time. As I recall, it was taken about 8 or 8:30 p.m. The building in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture was owned by me. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with a woman standing next to her, who is Mrs. Kramer. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know.

6. Kramer Exhibit No. 2, also labelled Commission No. 859c, is a photograph taken by me at the same place and at about the same time; however, I took this photograph with Mrs. Hyde's camera. In this photograph Mrs. Hyde is at the far left with the Intourist Guide and Mrs. Kramer. Only two men are pictured to the right of the car.

7. I do not remember speaking to any of the men pictured in Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. I was so disturbed by the earlier interview with the Intourist Guide official, that I cannot remember much of what happened thereafter.

8. I do recall that after this photograph was taken, I went to a nearby record store. When I left the store, a man spoke to me in an American accent and asked me about my car. He asked how many miles to the gallon it travelled. I do not recall if this man was the same one pictured in Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2.

9. The man appearing in these photographs, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved, check shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose picture I have seen in the newspapers.

10. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

11. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961.

Signed the 17th day of July 1964.

(S) Rita Naman,
RITA NAMAN.

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND AND MERYL McFARLAND

The following affidavit was executed by John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland on May 28, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, _County of Lancaster, City of Liverpool, Consulate of the United States of America, ss_:

Before me Wilfred V. Duke, Consul of the United States of America, duly commissioned and qualified, personally came John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland, of 7a Riversdale Road, Liverpool, 19, England, who being duly sworn, depose and say that:

Q. When and where did you board the bus for Mexico City?

A. We boarded the Continental Trailways bus at Jackson, Mississippi, and traveled via connecting buses to Mexico City where we arrived September 27, 1963.

Q. When and where did you first see the man later identified as Lee Harvey Oswald?

A. We changed buses at Houston, Texas, at 2:00 a.m. September 26th and it was probably about 6:00 a.m. after it became light that we first saw him.

Q. What reason did Oswald give for traveling to Mexico?

A. He stated that he was en route to Cuba and that he could not travel there from the United States as it was against the law.

Q. Did you see Oswald speaking to any other persons?

A. Yes. We observed him conversing occasionally with two young Australian women who boarded the bus on the evening of September 26th at Monterrey, Mexico. He also conversed occasionally with an elderly man who sat in the seat next to him for a time.

Q. When did it first occur to you that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man you had met on the bus?

A. When we saw his pictures in the newspapers.

Q. How many suitcases was Oswald carrying when he boarded the bus at Houston, Texas, or any other time?

A. We did not see him carrying any suitcases at any time.

Q. Did Oswald check any luggage with the bus company so it would have been carried underneath the bus in the baggage compartment?

A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage.

Q. What kind of luggage was he carrying?

A. We did not notice but presume he must have been carrying some hand luggage.

Q. Did he check any suitcases or other packages at a place en route to Mexico City or otherwise dispose of them?

A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage.

Q. What kind of clothing was he wearing?

A. As far as we recollect, ordinary slacks and, a more definite recollection, a sort of zipper jerkin.

Q. Did he mention any names or places either in the United States or Mexico, in any connection whatever?

A. Only New Orleans, whence he said he had come. In the course of conversation, we worked out that he must have left New Orleans at about the same time we had left Jackson, Mississippi, i.e. 2:00 p.m. on Wednesday, September 25th, 1963.

Q. Did he show you any documents, such as passport or Fair Play for Cuba Committee Card, or letters, newspaper clippings or other similar material? If so, describe them as fully as possible.

A. We saw no document, but he said he was the secretary of the New Orleans branch of the Fair Play for Cuba Organization, and that he was on his way to Cuba to see Castro if he could. We saw him at the next table to ourselves in the Customs Shed at Laredo, but did not notice his passport or tourist card.

Signed the 28th day of May 1964.

(S) J. B. McFarland,
JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND.
(S) Meryl McFarland,
MERYL McFARLAND.

TESTIMONY OF PAMELA MUMFORD

The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19, 1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Miss Mumford was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. C. C. Dillavou.

Pamela Mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BALL. You received a letter, didn't you, from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for the Commission, advising you that we would request you to give your deposition?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And you also received a copy of the joint resolution of the Congress, didn't you, authorizing the Commission to proceed to investigate the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you willingly give your deposition today, do you not?

Miss MUMFORD. I do.

Mr. BALL. To tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in this investigation?

Miss MUMFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Your name is Pamela Mumford?

Miss MUMFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Miss MUMFORD. 153 North New Hampshire Avenue, Los Angeles 4.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss MUMFORD. Secretary.

Mr. BALL. A legal secretary?

Miss MUMFORD. Legal secretary.

Mr. BALL. And you work for the firm of Dillavou & Cox, do you?

Miss MUMFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is in a building at 6th and Grand, Los Angeles, Calif.?

Miss MUMFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, because of the fact that you will not appear before the Commission, and the members of the Commission will have to read this deposition, they would like to know something about you: Where you were born, your education. So, just go ahead and tell me all you can about yourself.

Miss MUMFORD. Well, I was born in the Fiji Islands in 1941, and my father was transferred to Australia in 1951. I was brought up and went to school in Australia until 1961.

And then I traveled to England, where I worked for a period of a year. I went to Europe and then I obtained a working visa to come to the United States.

I worked in New York for 8 months and then my friend and I traveled through the United States and Mexico on our way to Los Angeles where we intended to remain.

Mr. BALL. Now, what was your friend's name?

Miss MUMFORD. Patricia Winston.

Mr. BALL. And she left Australia with you, did she?

Miss MUMFORD. She left with me, yes. We had been traveling together for 2 years. And she also made the journey through the States and through Mexico with me. That takes us up to Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. When did you arrive in Los Angeles?

Miss MUMFORD. In the first week of November 1963.

Mr. BALL. Is Patricia Winston a legal secretary also?

Miss MUMFORD. No; Patricia is an occupational therapist, who was also born in the Fiji Islands and raised in Australia. Our families were friends.

And she was unable to obtain work in California owing to certain California laws. She had to sit for some exam to enable her to work here.

So, finally, she returned home to Australia in January, mid-January. And she is there now.

Mr. BALL. As of 1964?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How old is Patricia Winston?

Miss MUMFORD. She is 23.

Mr. BALL. You took a trip into Mexico last fall, didn't you?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you travel from New York to Mexico?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, we traveled by bus on a scheme which allowed us to travel on Trailways buses for a period of 3 months for a certain amount. We just got on and off at various places we wanted to see: For instance, Washington, D.C.; Miami, where we stayed a week; then we went across to New Orleans, down through Texas to Laredo, and from Laredo we crossed the border also by bus and went to Monterrey.

We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where did you buy your ticket to Mexico?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to travel in the States, not in Mexico.

So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket?

Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called Transporter del Norte.

Mr. BALL. And did you buy the bus ticket in Laredo at the Trailways bus depot?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What date did you buy the bus ticket?

Miss MUMFORD. It must have been September 25.

Mr. BALL. And you left Laredo at what time?

Miss MUMFORD. Early September the 26th.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you leave the bus depot at Laredo on September 25th, about 10 o'clock in the morning, or was it September 26?

Miss MUMFORD. September 26. Now, hold on. We had one day in Monterrey and one night in Monterrey. We left Monterrey, I know, on the night of September 26 at 7:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. And you had come down to Monterrey from Laredo the day before, hadn't you?

Miss MUMFORD. The day before, yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the way from Laredo to Monterrey you didn't see Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You saw him on a bus that left Monterrey?

Miss MUMFORD. That left Monterrey. But he had traveled from Laredo on that same bus.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss MUMFORD. He told us.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know?

Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte.

Mr. BALL. And were there the same accommodations for all travelers?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; there were. There were four seats in the front that were occupied by English-speaking people. But, having got on so late in the journey, we were taken down to the back to sit with the Mexicans. And we were the only English-speaking people at the back of the bus.

Mr. BALL. All others were Mexican-speaking?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, who were the English-speaking people that you mentioned? Will you describe them?

Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life.

There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years.

Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and myself.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you first boarded the bus did you speak to the English-speaking people?

Miss MUMFORD. We got on and Oswald heard Patricia and I talking. And we had two heavy overnight bags, and he told us later that he had turned to his companion, who was the middle-aged English gentleman, and said, "I wonder how you say 'How can I help you' in Spanish", which gave us the opinion later that he couldn't speak the language: couldn't speak Spanish.

He took us for two Spanish girls, I guess, and was going to help us with our luggage.

Mr. BALL. Did he help you with your luggage?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You went on to the back of the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You didn't say anything to the four English-speaking people when you first got on the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. And they didn't speak to you?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. When did you first speak to any of these four?

Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us.

Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And while it was en route?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say to you?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, he said that he had heard us speaking English and wondered where we came from.

He then told us the story of how he had thought we were Mexican and was going to help us if he could speak the language.

Mr. BALL. What did he say? Can you tell me his language as close as you can?

Miss MUMFORD. No, I can't really put it into his words; not at that stage. He then proceeded to tell us about himself.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians.

He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him.

And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very much like to go to Australia.

He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.

And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying.

At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at all. But we noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand.

We made about three stops or four stops every 2 or 3 hours, and he didn't speak to us during these stops. We got speaking to the other British people.

Mr. BALL. Did he speak to you again after that time that he first came back?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; oh, about 2 hours before we arrived in Mexico City he asked us whether we had accommodations arranged there. And we said no, we had a vague idea from a book called "Mexico on Five Dollars a Day" where we were going to stay.

And he suggested that on previous trips to Mexico City he had stayed at a place called the Hotel Cuba, and he recommended it for clean and cheap living.

And he then made a crack that he wasn't suggesting the Hotel Cuba because he was going to be there; he just suggested it to help us.

And we decided that we wouldn't take him up on his suggestion; that we would go our own way.

Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of the room.

Mr. BALL. At the bus station?

Miss MUMFORD. At the bus station. And we left by taxi.

Mr. BALL. Then you had two conversations with him?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or more?

Miss MUMFORD. No; two. During the trip I engaged the middle-aged English gentleman in conversation, asking him about the weather, and what it was like usually. And he said, "The young man traveling beside me has traveled to Mexico also. Why don't you talk to him?" And that was all.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to the English gentleman; the elderly man?

Miss MUMFORD. Just standing outside at one of the rest stops, standing outside waiting to board the bus.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any one of these four people as the bus was en route, except Oswald; the four English-speaking people?

Miss MUMFORD. Not on the bus. We did speak to the young English couple for a while, told them where we had lived in London, and they had told us very vaguely, I remember, that they were also traveling through the United States, but their main aim wasn't to go to the tourist resorts in America but to go down to Mexico.

Mr. BALL. Did you get their names? Did they tell you their names?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't ask them their name?

Miss. MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. When did you talk to this elderly English gentleman who was sitting beside Oswald when you first got on the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. The only time we talked to him was at one of the rest stops outside the bus. And I just happened to ask him about the weather, and that was the only conversation.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else to you on the trip except that there was a young man sitting next to him that had been in Mexico before?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. That's all he said?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About how many people were on this bus?

Miss MUMFORD. There must have been about 14 rows on both sides, with two people on each. About 50, 55. It was crowded.

Mr. BALL. I have a note here of a statement you made to an agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 18th of December in which it was reported that you estimated about 39 passengers.

Do you recall that? Did you ever say that?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, these were conflicting reports, naturally. The FBI questioned Patricia at our apartment and he then questioned me here and, naturally, two people get different ideas on a bus load.

But, it was well crowded. There were a lot of children on the bus. I should imagine there would be--they were long, great big, long, heavy buses.

Mr. BALL. Were there any vacant seats when you got on?

Miss MUMFORD. Quite a few people boarded in Monterrey. And we were a bit frightened that we wouldn't get a seat together. But I think we were one of the few people who got on first.

Mr. BALL. What part of the bus did you sit in?

Miss MUMFORD. In the middle of the bus, more towards the back than the front.

Mr. BALL. Did the English man ever come back while you were being seated and speak in Spanish to any of the Mexican people?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall that the English man ever came back and asked the Mexican people to make room for you to sit down?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. At the bus stops, you say, you did not talk to Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No. He was the first off the bus and the last back on. He had a meal at every bus stop.

Mr. BALL. Oh, he did?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He ate at every bus stop?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes. I never saw him ordering. I took it that he didn't speak the language, but he always managed to order himself a large meal, because he never seemed to get it over to them what he wanted.

Mr. BALL. What gave you the impression that he did not speak the language?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, simply that on arriving on the bus he told us--when we had boarded the bus he had told us that he had turned to the English gentleman and asked "I wonder how you say 'Can I help you' in Spanish."

Mr. BALL. You told him when he came back to talk to you that you had had a friend travel in Russia?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you say you had mentioned her experiences. What did you tell him about that?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, we said that she had come back and told us that Moscow was a beautiful city and she had gathered the impression that they were being taken on a tour and shown only what they wanted to be shown.

She, being a school teacher, asked a lot of questions of their female guide, and the questions just were evaded or not answered.

And she said she got the impression that she was told to say certain things and nothing else.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any remark to that?

Miss MUMFORD. No; the only remark he made on his life in Moscow was that he had had a lot of trouble getting out. That's all he said.

Mr. BALL. Did he make any statement at all concerning his life in the Soviet Union; whether he had enjoyed the stay there or not?

Miss MUMFORD. No; he gave me the impression that he was the average, normal American citizen who had gone over there and had wanted to get out and couldn't get out for some red tape reasons.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything or make any mention of politics?

Miss MUMFORD. No; never.

Mr. BALL. Did he mention anything about communism, socialism, or anything of that sort?

Miss MUMFORD. No; he never said anything about his political views or even mention politics at all.

Mr. BALL. You did see his passport, though?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did he happen to show you this passport?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, I think it was rather to prove that he had been in Russia. I think he was trying to find places that we hadn't been that he had, and he just--in fact, he left us at the seat to go up and take his passport from his traveling bag and bring it down to show us.

Mr. BALL. Had he told you his name before that?

Miss MUMFORD. He never mentioned his name once.

Mr. BALL. He never did?

Miss MUMFORD. He never introduced himself; no.

Mr. BALL. How did you know his name?

Miss MUMFORD. We didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice the name on the passport?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, I didn't; no. Pat says it rang a bell when the rest of the business came up, and we recognized him on television. And she said, when the name came through on the television, it did ring a bell with her, but she said even then she couldn't picture that name on the passport.

Mr. BALL. You did see the name on the passport, did you?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, yes, he must have shown it to us. I can't really remember.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't remember the name?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You made no note of it?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Did the elderly Englishman ever make a statement to you as to whether or not the young man sitting next to him on the bus, that is, Oswald, had been to Mexico City before, or been to Mexico before?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Oswald must have told him he had been there numerous times, because this Englishman did refer us, or did refer me to Oswald and say "He has been there before. Why don't you ask him?"

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Mexico City or Mexico before?

Miss MUMFORD. I think we were speaking about Mexico generally, because we had contemplated a trip down to Acapulco, and I was interested in the difference in temperatures.

Mr. BALL. Was that at a bus stop?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes, outside the bus; a rest stop.

Mr. BALL. Now, you gained some impression, didn't you, from talking to the English man, that he had not known Oswald before?

Miss MUMFORD. Only by his reference to Oswald as "the young man sitting next to me." They were talking quite a lot, the four of them.

In the first two seats were the young English couple, and directly behind them were Oswald, sitting on the aisle, and the Englishman, sitting near the window. And we could hear them talking a lot, and laughing, when we were sitting in the back, wondering what was going on.

Mr. BALL. Did you gain the impression from anything else said by the Englishman that he was not traveling in the company of Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Nothing except that he referred to him as the young man----

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; but they never spoke to each other on rest stops. Oswald just went his way completely.

Mr. BALL. When you arrived at Mexico City did the English man get off the bus with Oswald, or at the same time when Oswald did?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. I remember Oswald was standing completely alone in the bus station.

Mr. BALL. What did the Englishman do?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember what he did at all. We got off the bus and I don't remember seeing him leave the bus even.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any conversation with the English couple to indicate that they had never before seen Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think they made any reference to him at all.

Mr. BALL. The Federal Bureau of Investigation agent that you talked to on the 12th of December stated this: That in talking with the Englishman, the elderly Englishman, he said, and I will quote what he put down, "I gather the young man sitting with me has been to Mexico City before."

Do you remember words like that used by the Englishman?

Miss MUMFORD. That may have been his words. I really don't remember. That was just the general impression I got of what he said to me.

Mr. BALL. Now, also at that time, the agent reported that it was your opinion that "Oswald was traveling alone, and that he had had no previous contact with any of the English-speaking people on the bus prior to that time." Did you tell him that?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; and that is still my opinion.

Mr. BALL. Did you have breakfast on that morning before you got into one of your stops? Did you have a breakfast?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where? Did you notice the name of the place?

Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't know the name of the place. It was about 6 a.m. in the morning and we arrived in Mexico City at about 10, so it would have been about 4 hours before we arrived in the city.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat with Oswald at that time; eat breakfast with him?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he eat breakfast with anyone?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember at that particular stage. Earlier in the night, twice, I knew he ate alone.

Mr. BALL. In the statement which the agent reported, the agent reported his conversation with you, and he says that, "Oswald always ate alone except for breakfast on the morning of September 27, 1963, when he ate with the English couple." Do you remember whether Oswald ate breakfast with the English couple?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't; no. Pat may have remembered that. I don't remember seeing him at all in that particular restaurant.

Mr. BALL. Did you give this young man a nickname?

Miss MUMFORD. "Texas."

Mr. BALL. Did you call him "Texas" to his face?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You just called him "Texas" when you----

Miss MUMFORD. No; we wrote home from Mexico City describing the awful bus trip, with crying kids, et cetera, and happened to mention that there was a young Texan and we called him "Texas."

Mr. BALL. But you didn't call him "Texas" to his face?

Miss MUMFORD. No, No.

Mr. BALL. How was this boy from Texas dressed?

Miss MUMFORD. He was dressed casually. I don't remember what color trousers he had on. He had on a dark sweater. I know that. It was a wool sweater, a sort of a charcoal gray color.

When we saw him on television, being arrested or being taken down to the Dallas County jail, Patricia was the first to recognize that that was the same sweater. We were reluctant to believe this, of course, at first; that we knew this man. But she said the thinning hair on the top, the thinning, curly, wiry hair, plus the sweater that she recognized right away, and I recognized afterwards, made us almost certain that this was the same man.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a shirt on?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. In discussing this with Patricia she said that she felt he had some sort of a checked shirt on, just underneath.

Mr. BALL. He didn't have a tie on?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Open?

Miss MUMFORD. Open sport shirt; yes.

Mr. BALL. And did he have on a jersey; pale-green jersey that you noticed?

Miss MUMFORD. No; not pale green.

Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have?

Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know.

Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really certain on that point.

Mr. BALL. What color was it?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat where he was sitting?

Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him.

Mr. BALL. And when he left the bus in Mexico City did he carry the luggage with him?

Miss MUMFORD. I can't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. When you last saw him standing in the bus depot did he have a piece of luggage in his hand?

Miss MUMFORD. I can't remember that either.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald tell you where he had boarded the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think he did.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the bus depot in Mexico City where you last saw Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. I am not sure of that. I know the name of the bus, or I am fairly certain of the name of the bus. But I am not sure of the bus station.

Mr. BALL. Were there a lot of bus stations?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, that is a point I am not sure of. We took a bus down to Acapulco from Mexico City and I have the feeling that was the busline we took to Acapulco. I know there are about three different buslines situated in different places in Mexico City, and I am not sure just what was the name of the depot we came into.

Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of luggage?

Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one.

Mr. BALL. Just one?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald on television after the President had been shot, didn't you?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me where you were when you saw the television and who was with you and what you said.

Miss MUMFORD. On the Friday night of the 22d, Pat and I left by bus for Las Vegas for the weekend. Patricia was not working at that time. I am not sure whether she had seen television shots--I think we had both seen television shots before we left for the bus station. I am not familiar with whether we realized at that stage that it was him or not.

I remember in Las Vegas we had a television in our motel room and it was then that we were both very sure that it was the same man.

Mr. BALL. You saw him on television, did you?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you thought you recognized him then?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As the man you had met on the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The man you have referred to as "Texas"?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; well, we knew we had seen him somewhere before, and we were sort of going over our travels in our mind, and it hit us that it was on that bus, particularly when they said he was from Fort Worth, or from Texas.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you give me a description of the Englishman; what he looked like? You told me his approximate age.

Miss MUMFORD. He was short. Yes; about 5'8". Quite bald, plump; fat. He was also dressed casually.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a tie on?

Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. He seemed to me not to be well dressed. He was scruffy. He spoke well. He spoke with a cultured English accent more than a Cockney or a suburbia accent.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you whether or not he had lived in Mexico before?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Not--he didn't specify Mexico City. He said that he had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you his name?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. But they showed you pictures of a man, did they not?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; they showed us two pictures the first time, one picture I was fairly certain was the same gentleman. The other picture, whom they said was the same man, I couldn't give that description--I couldn't say definitely that it was him or even the same man.

The second time the FBI official showed me a photo was some weeks or months later and I could make a definite--what is the word I want?

Mr. BALL. Identification?

Miss MUMFORD. Identification of that picture.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell the agent?

Miss MUMFORD. Well, that third picture, on the second time he had showed it to me, was, I was certain, the same man.

Mr. BALL. You mean the elderly Englishman?

Miss MUMFORD. The elderly Englishman.

Mr. BALL. That you had seen on the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see this Englishman again?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Except this night, or this ride on the bus?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that was the only time.

Mr. BALL. Did they tell you that the Englishman's name was John Howard Bowen?

Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't recall ever being told his name.

Mr. BALL. Or that he might have had the name Albert Osborne?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember either of those?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. Was your friend with you when the agent showed you the pictures?

Miss MUMFORD. The first set of pictures, she was still in this country and she was also shown them. The second set of pictures was shown to me after she had left.

Mr. BALL. When the first set of pictures was shown to your friend Patricia Winston, what did she say?

Miss MUMFORD. If I remember correctly, she felt the same way as I did: that one of the photos was a good likeness, and the other one she couldn't make an identification.

Mr. BALL. Do you have anything else that you would care to say; any impressions that you obtained from this ride on the bus that you think might be of assistance to us?

Miss MUMFORD. No.

Mr. BALL. You have told us about all you know about that trip, have you, now?

Miss MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, I hope this week.